From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #306 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, October 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 306 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re Moby [alan gray ] Re Record hoarding wakeman...4!...4! [alan gray ] fall gig oxford [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: fall/Ultrafoxx [Howard Spencer ] Re: fall/Ultrafoxx [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Re Record hoarding wakeman...4!...4! [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Moby = Dick [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: fall gig oxford [MarkBursa@aol.com] more on ebay [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Sparrow Fart [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: more on ebay [MarkBursa@aol.com] Life in the manscape single questions ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: oh no not prog....... [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine ["Stephen Jackson" ] Re: more on ebay [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] totally off-subject [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: totally off-subject ["Stephen JC Sheen" ] RE: totally off-subject ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: oh no not prog....... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [MarkBursa@aol.com] Two drummers [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Sparrow Fart [Tim Robinson ] Re: Moby = Dick [Tim Robinson ] Re: Off Topic: Magazine [Tim Robinson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 05:31:30 -0400 (EDT) From: alan gray Subject: Re Moby >>Play was released >>that week so I bought it and it was one of the best >>albums of '99 in my opinion. I can't believe anyone >>would say it's over produced, listening to some of the >>quirks, general rattling and slightly dodgy nature of >>the sampling! Craig'... As I said I only played it once,so perhaps the quirks and dodgy aspects were not just part of the considered blend. Nearly every CD put out these days has a built in tatty edge. A few spatters on the canvas. A bit of immediecy? My initial reaction was that I didn't like it. The sentiment and I don't just mean the lyrics, was for me over the top. I just couldn't get into it. He might be a vegan but there seems to be a lot of MSG in his music. It doesn't surprise me that the music's been used on so many commercials because to me it is very polished commercial music. Thats why I said good luck to him I suppose, I said the same about Madonna recently, for all her sex sells and image changes,perhaps its good that a baldy bloke can also turn out global commercial music if thats what he wants to do. Alan - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 07:14:36 -0400 (EDT) From: alan gray Subject: Re Record hoarding wakeman...4!...4! >>A mate of mine recently bought a Rick Wakeman LP for a laugh - >>six wives >>of Henry VIII. We stuck it on one evening - oh dear, it really >>is so bad that it isn't even funny. I turned on the tv once (about ten years ago) and it was one of those Pro-(faded)celebrity golf matches. I continued to watch out of morbid curiosity as Rick Wakeman was playing. There was one of those short holes where they can reach the green with one hit, and a couple of very old codger blokes were standing by the green watching. They were in the fore ground for the TV shot with the golfers up on the tee 100m away. There was no one else there. Wakeman managed to pick one of these blokes out with his tee shot. Landing his ball right on his head. He crumpled to the ground concussed, he came round after a few minutes but must have been in some disarray, probably thought he was in hell lying there and through the fug the faces bending over him were Rick Wakeman, Bruce Forsyth, Jimmy Tarbuck plus his mate and a BBC camera crew. If you thought the stand collapsing at a floydd concert was funny you would have enjoyed this. Alan - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 09:09:58 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: fall gig oxford the guy who runs fall news finally mailled me back and he confirms the gig is sun 19th nov. so.....who's going then? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 15:11:54 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: Re: fall/Ultrafoxx Paul/other interested listers, Fall gig in Oxford is Sunday 19th November, acc Fall website. This is at the Zodiac on the Cowley road. Having owned up to owning an Enya record, I suppose I might as well now admit to having all four of John Foxx's albums, as well as a sprinkling of early Ultravox stuff. What is more I like them, or at least bits of them. All in the ears of the behearer, but surely in this particular corner of robot-rock Numan was the talentless chancer, and John Foxx the underrated innovator? Click-click, drone Howard - -- Howard Spencer Research Editor, nineteenth century New Dictionary of National Biography (direct line: 01865 267021) http://www.oup.co.uk/newdnb/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:51:09 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: fall/Ultrafoxx Having owned up to owning an Enya record, I suppose I might as well now admit to having all four of John Foxx's albums, as well as a sprinkling of early Ultravox stuff. What is more I like them, or at least bits of them. All in the ears of the behearer, but surely in this particular corner of robot-rock Numan was the talentless chancer, and John Foxx the underrated innovator? Click-click, drone Howard ////// hmmm , my memory is that about ten seconds after numan hit paydirt with are friends electric , john foxx put out his underpass/noones driving type stuff sounding incredibly similar. and also ultravox reformed. and so did kraftwerk. all totally coincidental i'm sure. and those first 3 ultravox albums are awful , particularly the first 2. all horrible bowiesms with that dire billie currie violin , together with some desperate attempts at punk. and the "someone told me jesus was the devil's lover/while we masturbated on the magazine cover" must be maybe the worst couplet of the era. i guess "systems of romance" was a bit better but all in all i'm struggling to think of much original or good mr foxx ever came up with.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 10:59:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Re Record hoarding wakeman...4!...4! On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, alan gray wrote: > >>A mate of mine recently bought a Rick Wakeman LP for a laugh - >>six wives > >>of Henry VIII. We stuck it on one evening - oh dear, it really >>is so bad > that it isn't even funny. > > I turned on the tv once (about ten years ago) and it was one of those > Pro-(faded)celebrity golf matches. I continued to watch out of morbid > curiosity as Rick Wakeman was playing. There was one of those short holes Apparently golf isn't his sole vocation these days: I'd read somewhere that Wakeman's now an Anglican minister in New Zealand. Wonder if he's the organist too? - --Jeff, frightened J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::the sea is the night asleep in the daytime:: __Robert Desnos__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:30:40 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: oh no not prog....... Paul, << ///// that makes you about 4 or 5 years older than me.<< Terrifyingly, I hit 40 later this month..... >>first records i ever bought were slade and sweet when i was about 9 , but it was just the frothy silly stuff i bought. the smarter end of glam wasn't something i heard until post punk , i guess when bowie got hip again to the new romantics and people my age started checking out zigggy/hunky etc (2 brilliant albums). at that age soul didn't touch me , it was things like costello leading into the standard pistols/buzzcocks/clash. >> I really started buying records with T Rex in 1971 (when I was 10) and then got into Bowie pretty much from seeing Starman on TOTP. Ziggy Stardust was the first album I bought. I guess Mott/Sparks/Roxy/Cockney Rebel etc were the interesting bands by about 74-75 but then it seemed to grind to a halt. people started getting into Yes and Genesis and I couldn't go there..... at least the 70s soul bands knew the value of a 3-minute single. Punk was a relief - even though most of the 2nd wave of bands were crap beyond a couple of singles (999/UKSubs/Vibrators/Chelsea etc - all the ones that still play the 'punk's not dead' circuit). Stuff like Shot by Both Sides really stood out at that time. Have to say I was pretty much Clash-obsessed then. Didn't start to get really interesting till the end of 78 - I started listening to Peel and taping stuff like Nag Nag Nag by the Cabs or Various Times by the Fall. Radio 1 was playing Outdoor Miner as well - I have this memry of hearing it on a crappy car radio, on a very cold day, when I'd just passed my driving test....sounding like something from another planet. Was it punk? Sort of - but somehow better than punk... Wow. That was really my introduction to Wire. I'd heard Pink Flag but sort of lumped it in with the other me-too Punk stuff...silly boy! >>////// i read the Q review of "kid a" today and the reviewer states firmly that ok computer is a better album than dark side of the moon. even apart from the merits of comparing things 25 yrs apart i had to smile , DSOTM did nothing for me in the mid 70's but i get it now. that , meddle and relics would be the 3 i'd choose. plus led zep 1-4 (certainly not stuff like "in through the out door" , yuk). << Even though I love OK Computer I can see the folly of making it 'greatest album ever' after only a couple of years....though I think history will be kind to it. DSOTM gets better each play, I agree. In a way I'm glad I didn't get into it in the 70s....Led Zep 4 would be one of the greatest albums of all time were it not for fucking stairway to heaven. Some prejudices just won't go away. That song is as pretentions as anything Yes or ELP did.... >>/////// i have a hidden section i don't allow to infiltrate the rest , my brother keeps giving me stuff he hasn't got room for. i can't bring myself to throw it away but don't really know what to do with it. does anyone know of a market for old "it bites" 12"s or icicle works lp's? it costs about 30p to list something on ebay so i reckon i've got no chance of breaking even.......<< Well, It Bites 12"s make good ashtrays, but you can send the Icicle Works albums here.... a fine band, especially live. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:43:37 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine Paul, I'd say it was entirely down to the way Magazine used keyboards - Formula played the synth in a very prog way - weeeeaaaaooooowwwweeeee!!!! - wheras Wire just added icy textures (as did Joy Division). Secondhand Daylight sounds just perfect now, as it always did. After it got slagged off for being "ideologically suspect" Virgin overreacted and tried to make Magazine into a singles act - those quick-fire releases didn't help Correct Use of Soap. Also that album suffered by the JD comparisons of the day - Magazine became old hat even in Manchester. Things moved much quicker in "them days".... Final nail in the coffin was getting Hannett in to add dead production to the last album (which was weak anyway). Apart from JD, Hannett screwed every record he produced (except Flight by ACR). Genius? Pants. mark << ///////absolutely ; i'm listening to it as i write this ("vigilance" , to be precise). bit of an odd choice of tracks maybe , but great nonetheless. relating to the prog discussions , i think magazine were the act who maybe sufferred more than anybody from those accusations. at the time i recall "secondhand daylight" being considered very ideologically suspect , way too many keyboards and not punky enough at all. seems a daft thing to say now , but that was a widely held view then. virgin threw a pile of money at them and failed to get anywhere. despite the obvious artiness of 154 i never recall wire getting the flak howie did , maybe wire just never seemed to be trying so hard? >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:45:17 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Moby = Dick Tim, << God spare us from his insipid coffee table musak for and leave it to the Gareth Cheeseman's of this world (sorry non UK listees...I was referring to Steve Coogans brilliantly observed Software Salesman there...) >> You're a tiger...grrrrr! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:06:03 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: On Topic: Magazine and Wire << And a lot happened in the six months between "Secondhand Daylight" and "154" - the explosion of Two Tone deposed punk/new wave as the predominant obsession, leaving punk to the UK Subs, 999 and the Angelic Upstarts, and Joy Division had emerged with "Unknown Pleasures" as the first great post-punk group. And somebody came to power preaching inter-generational hatred, encouraging a new solidarity within generations. And other pseudo-sociological claims.<< Punk basically exploded. Indie labels meant a lot of music that previously wouldn't have been released started coming out....you had up-beat dancey stuff with a message from 2-Tone; you had miserable young men in grey shirts and thin ties and overcoats. Also there was a neo-psychedelica movement (eg Bunnymen/Teardrop) and Scottish VU/Television-influenced stuff (Orange Juice/JosefK) 2-Tone really broke during the 2-Tone tour (I saw it in Oct/Nov 79) and moved into the national consciousness at the start of 1980. At the same time some of the original punk bands were moving in similar directions - eg The Jam's Setting Sons (angsty, political) and The Clash's London Calling (acknowledges the 2-Tone thing openly). Even then you had 'punk's not dead' types with bondage trousers etc... >> Are there any listers who were introduced to music by the Specials/Madness/Beat and did you feel the need to hate Pink Floyd that those two years older regarded as a duty ? ///// my experience at school was that 2-tone kids (and , much more so , mod revivalists) were ex-punks who'd been into it for the "outrage" rather than the music. but i'm not saying that was a statistically significant sample of the population....... >> I would agree - most mod/ska fans were ex- punks - with a few old soul boys who pre-dated (and din't get) punk getting involved too.... >>/////// john foxx ; what a talentless chancer. and pretentious too. siouxsie (and severin) ; maybe a bit pretentious. monochrome set ; bit cruel , bid's tongue never left his cheek really. scritti ; i guess so. punilux ; just silly really.<< Surely Gazza Numan topped them all for pretentiousness? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:14:14 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine Tim, >>They look kind of cool on the cover...especially B.Adamson. One of them sports a moustache like the bloke from Sparks. Which one is he?<< John Doyle, the drummer. Two boffins, two fops and one bad-ass mutha! >> 'The Light Pours out of Me' has now slipped into my top10 of all time and I think I like this band. Maybe I'll have bought the 3 CD box set of b-sides by next year. Do you think they might re-form like Wire sometime? How was this stuff percieved in the heady days of 1978? >> Highly unlikely they'll reform. McGeogh is a bit of a wreck these days; Adamson fairly successful as a solo artist/film soundtrack man. Devoto played live for the first time in years about 2 months ago, with Pete Shelley, as Buzzkunst. Formula was involved with HD's solo stuff post-Magazine (and the Luxuria stuff too) though I don't know if he's still involved in music. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:17:05 -0400 (EDT) From: alan gray Subject: re-re2Record hoard wakeman4! >>Apparently golf isn't his sole vocation these days: I'd read >>somewhere >>that Wakeman's now an Anglican minister in New Zealand. >>Wonder if he's the organist too? - --Jeff, frightened Oh dear, perhaps the pensioner died and Wakeman turned to God. Long range seven iron 'exit' administrations a speciality. It was either that or turn to shoplifting alla Dot Cotton. Alan PS Do they have a second rate church in New Zealand? - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:18:40 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Moby = Dick Tim, << Its just that Moby seems to represent everything I hate about Y2k culture at the moment...he is sort of Pine Floored, coffee table muzak with a dose of 'Healthy' blues authenticity just because he includes a few samples about 'feeling so sad' and all that. Sort of musical Museli, and we all know what the end product of that is. >> Very well put. Far too 'safe' for me...slick dinner party music. Sort of records that friends of mine who are into jazz would buy as a concession to "pop". Along with the last Beck album. I saw Moby a few years ago and he just played bad punk songs. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:21:21 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: fall gig oxford Paul, << the guy who runs fall news finally mailled me back and he confirms the gig is sun 19th nov. so.....who's going then? p >> Count me in. MES was almost cheerful at the RFH, though his new band of 14-year-old punks leave something to be desired. The Zodiac is a decent little venue so it should be a good gig though. mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 13:52:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: more on ebay Yesterday I was the sole bidder and subsequent winner for Sonoko's "La Debutante" LP. Has anyone heard this? (Or even heard of it?!) It was one of Colin's first productions. Supposedly it's some sort of light electronic music. I found a review on the web somewhere that said it was quite good. Anyhow, for 10 bucks... Tomorrow bidding closes for a copy of Midnight Bahnhof Cafe Nostalgia. It looks like a few people from this list are bidding against each other! (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "I've been known to dabble." -007 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:15:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Sparrow Fart Graeme, << If you look hard enough you will find plenty of good music from the early 70's 'pre-punk' era- Sun Ra, Miles Davies, Can, Faust, Neu!, Kraftwerk, Cluster, Neil Young, Bernard Parmegiani, Pierre Henry, Iggy and the Stooges, Captain Beefheart, Guru Guru, Pere Ubu, the Residents, Jonathan Richman, Patti Smith, Karlheinz Stockhausen, John Cage... just a few who spring to mind - and lets not forget 'Metal Machine Music' even if it has been surpassed about a million times since. >> Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing! Quite how one would have located a Bernard Parmegiani album in 1972 is a taxing thought. As it was, we were quite happy on a diet of T Rex, Mott the Hoople, Sparks, Roxy Music etc, with lashings of..... >>Not even 'The Laughing Gnome' could redeem D. Bowie. Poor old Ziggy Piggy never could decide if he wanted to be Lou Reed, Iggy Pop or Kraftwerk. By the time he hit No. 1 w/'Ashes to Ashes Donk to Donkey' he'd finally settled on Ronld McDonald as the perfect image for his bloated ego. << I guess you had to be there. Sure, now it's easy to see where the Dame's influences were coming from. But back in 1973, Ziggy Stardust was by far and away the best album ever made in the world ever to these 12-year old ears. And the new BBC sessions of those same songs that I bought last week sound pretty damn good still. Sure, you can knock Bowie - most of his output of the past 20 years has been utter pants - but in the early 70s he was the Man, no question. >>While BEno was 'inventing' ambient, did he perhaps hear Cluster, Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream? After reading Cale's book my opinion of this pompous character is lowered still further.<< Almost certainly...but so what? Eno may be pompous, but I wouldn't criticise him for a lack or creativity. >>Deep Purple couldn't rock their way out of a mouldy old dough bag! Now Black Flag - there was a band who rocked!<< Be careful - what sounds tame by today's standards didn't 30 years ago. Deep Purple were a lot heavier than most of what went before them.....but many bands that came after were much heavier (eg Led Zep, Pistols, Motorhead etc etc). Much of this is down to recording technology..... Blimey, I'm defending Deep Purple! >>As for the eighties there was so much good music it'd take forever to detail it - if you can't be bothered to look beyond the mainstream you'll never find much worthwhile!<< I would totally agree. >>Heard 3 songs off Radiohead - title track's like something Aphex Twin could've farted out in his sleep and discarded as dull seven years ago, another instrumental was like a tenth rate watered down Labradford, the other one sounded like they'd tried and failed to rip off Sigur Ros - innovation! But at least its not bloody Oasis, eh? Oh, here we go. Cheap shots, those. The difference is that Radiohead do this all on one album, which also contains stuff that sounds like Radiohead, and stuff that sounds like nothing else. Aphex Twin, Labradford, Sigur Ros are interesting but pretty one-dimensional. Oh, and Kid A is this week's number one album. A feat that Labradford will, I guess, struggle to achieve. I just wish more big stadium acts were prepared to make experimental, intriguing, and pretty fucking good albums. If that turns more people on to other good stuff, it can't be bad can it? >> Little Lord Fauntleroy also spoils a song off the new PJ Harvey album with his whining. Oooowaaayeee! Shaddap!<< Graeme, you're sounding like Beavis. >>Moby is one of the shittiest live acts I've ever witnnessed!<< I've seen worse, but I've seen better! Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:19:16 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: more on ebay Andrew, << Tomorrow bidding closes for a copy of Midnight Bahnhof Cafe Nostalgia. It looks like a few people from this list are bidding against each other! >> Who else from the list is bidding? Mine is pretty transparent as I don't use a nickname. I know I'm the highest bidder at the moment but the reserve hasn't been met. I might have another dabble - but I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. So let the list know if you're bidding please! Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 14:40:32 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Life in the manscape single questions Listening to "Life in the Manscape" single. I have two questions: - - Am I smoking something or is it really Russian folk tune "Korobeyniki" played in the beginning of the 12" mix of LitM? - - What is the meaning of the phrase "Who Has Nine?" I think it is a reference to a card game - is it? Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:19:21 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine >Is that a fretless bass I hear?! Dunno. But Adamson provided some great basslines. Listen to the Peel sess of "Give me Everything"... >They look kind of cool on the cover...especially B.Adamson. One of them sports a moustache like the bloke >from Sparks. Which one is he? That'd be John Doyle, the drummer. Later he was in the Armoury Show with the very cool John McGeoch (also from Magazine) and very uncool ex-members of the Skids. Doyle (along with Terry Chambers of XTC) was the reason I started drumming 16 years ago..... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:19:53 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: oh no not prog....... << ///// that makes you about 4 or 5 years older than me.<< Terrifyingly, I hit 40 later this month..... ++++ well i'm 36 so i got it about right. i hear 40 is the worse age of all to hit....... I really started buying records with T Rex in 1971 (when I was 10) and then got into Bowie pretty much from seeing Starman on TOTP. Ziggy Stardust was the first album I bought. I guess Mott/Sparks/Roxy/Cockney Rebel etc were the interesting bands by about 74-75 but then it seemed to grind to a halt. people started getting into Yes and Genesis and I couldn't go there..... at least the 70s soul bands knew the value of a 3-minute single. +++++ things like harley/sparks/mott were things i rarely heard ; even when they had hits i don't recall radio 1 actually playing them much. so 75/76 is just a bit vague for me. hence those supersonic re-runs are so funny ; it's stuff i can just about recall. Punk was a relief - even though most of the 2nd wave of bands were crap beyond a couple of singles (999/UKSubs/Vibrators/Chelsea etc - all the ones that still play the 'punk's not dead' circuit). Stuff like Shot by Both Sides really stood out at that time. Have to say I was pretty much Clash-obsessed then. //// the clash were the first band i saw/got really into. though london calling killed it for me. those division 2 acts i thought were crap even as a fifteen yr old , let alone now. everyone i knew loved SBBS ; virtually nobody had any other magazine records. Didn't start to get really interesting till the end of 78 - I started listening to Peel and taping stuff like Nag Nag Nag by the Cabs or Various Times by the Fall. Radio 1 was playing Outdoor Miner as well - I have this memry of hearing it on a crappy car radio, on a very cold day, when I'd just passed my driving test....sounding like something from another planet. Was it punk? Sort of - but somehow better than punk... Wow. That was really my introduction to Wire. I'd heard Pink Flag but sort of lumped it in with the other me-too Punk stuff...silly boy! ++++ i swopped my clear vinyl copy of "sound of the suburbs" for a white vinyl outdoor miner , best deal i ever did. then i bought chairs missing and i guess here i am still today..... Even though I love OK Computer I can see the folly of making it 'greatest album ever' after only a couple of years....though I think history will be kind to it. DSOTM gets better each play, I agree. In a way I'm glad I didn't get into it in the 70s....Led Zep 4 would be one of the greatest albums of all time were it not for fucking stairway to heaven. Some prejudices just won't go away. That song is as pretentions as anything Yes or ELP did.... ++++ not so sure about ok computer being seen that way in ten years , but we'll see. Well, It Bites 12"s make good ashtrays, but you can send the Icicle Works albums here.... a fine band, especially live. ++++ maybe i'll send some out as xmas pressies. p Mark >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:24:58 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine I'd say it was entirely down to the way Magazine used keyboards - Formula played the synth in a very prog way - weeeeaaaaooooowwwweeeee!!!! - wheras Wire just added icy textures (as did Joy Division). Secondhand Daylight sounds just perfect now, as it always did. After it got slagged off for being "ideologically suspect" Virgin overreacted and tried to make Magazine into a singles act - those quick-fire releases didn't help Correct Use of Soap. Also that album suffered by the JD comparisons of the day - Magazine became old hat even in Manchester. Things moved much quicker in "them days".... ///// yep , virgin always seemed like they never knew what to do with magazine. all those singles seemed a bit desperate. and i guess they fell out of fashion , simple as that. mind you , standing up to JD is a pretty thankless task.... Final nail in the coffin was getting Hannett in to add dead production to the last album (which was weak anyway). Apart from JD, Hannett screwed every record he produced (except Flight by ACR). Genius? Pants. ////// well i know what you mean , although i love "psycle sluts" for one. but that last mag album (and play) are universally dissed it seems. interesting the M box set has 3/4 of play and not one MMW track. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:02:11 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine >////// well i know what you mean , although i love "psycle sluts" for one. >but that last mag album (and play) are universally dissed it seems. >interesting the M box set has 3/4 of play and not one MMW track. p No. It's got Vigilance, The Garden and and Come Alive, which are all off Magic, Murder and The Weather, although, admittedly, they're all remixes.... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:51:12 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: more on ebay Yesterday I was the sole bidder and subsequent winner for Sonoko's "La Debutante" LP. Has anyone heard this? (Or even heard of it?!) It was one of Colin's first productions. Supposedly it's some sort of light electronic music. I found a review on the web somewhere that said it was quite good. Anyhow, for 10 bucks... /// i got one the same way for exactly that price. japanese girl sings electropop , not bad really. worth picking up..... Tomorrow bidding closes for a copy of Midnight Bahnhof Cafe Nostalgia. It looks like a few people from this list are bidding against each other! //// come on now , one at a time :-) p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:57:38 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: totally off-subject well i'm sorry but , going back to a thread of a few months ago , jamie oliver was on frank skinner's show tonight plugging his new single (he's the drummer). it ended with jamie drumming on a version of spandau ballet's "gold" , he kindly treated us to a drum solo. i will not pass any judgement , i'll just pass on the facts.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:12:55 +0100 From: "Stephen JC Sheen" Subject: Re: totally off-subject You were watching the wrong programme - tonight's University Challenge featured the excitement of a question about A Flock of Seagulls. Unfortunately it was in neither the music nor the picture round, but just a question about the derivation of the name. Some credit to the students of today - they got the question wrong and met Jeremy Paxman's apparently well-informed reading of the answer with complete bemusement and absence of recognition. > well i'm sorry but , going back to a thread of a few months ago , jamie > oliver was on frank skinner's show tonight plugging his new single (he's the > drummer). it ended with jamie drumming on a version of spandau ballet's > "gold" , he kindly treated us to a drum solo. i will not pass any judgement , > i'll just pass on the facts.p > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:46:24 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: totally off-subject Paul wrote: well i'm sorry but , going back to a thread of a few months ago , jamie oliver was on frank skinner's show tonight plugging his new single (he's the drummer). it ended with jamie drumming on a version of spandau ballet's "gold" , he kindly treated us to a drum solo. i will not pass any judgement , i'll just pass on the facts.p ========== Prog rock pretension and drum solo nightmares are nothing compared to the 10 minute maelstrom that is the Country-Rock-Two-Drummer-Drum-Solo-of-the-Gods! I barely survived this one... I forget if it was that Molly Hatchet or the 38 Special concert that featured this, but it points out one of the mysteries of American Country-Rock, or do you prefer to call it Country-Fried-Rock? Two Drummers.... What's up with that? You could barely tell that there was one drummer playing.... Hell, I've heard better drum machine programming than your average two-drummer country-rock band! The only thing I could think of is that they kept the spare drummer around in case the first one got too drunk to play, or if he should spontaneously combust ala 'Spinal Tap'. If anyone has the answer to this mystery, please feel free to fill us in! Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:04:20 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: oh no not prog....... Paul, << ++ well i'm 36 so i got it about right. i hear 40 is the worse age of all to hit....... >> Cheers mate. Actually I remember hearing John Peel's Birthday 40 (20 years ago) and vowing to still have good musical taste by the time I got there. Mission accomplished, I reckon. >>+++++ things like harley/sparks/mott were things i rarely heard ; even when they had hits i don't recall radio 1 actually playing them much. so 75/76 is just a bit vague for me. hence those supersonic re-runs are so funny ; it's stuff i can just about recall.<< They got played if they charted. Used to be able to get those singles cheap from a secondhand shop in Blackpool. Ex jukebox copies, with no middles usually. Still got 4 Mott singles from back then. >>//// the clash were the first band i saw/got really into. though london calling killed it for me. those division 2 acts i thought were crap even as a fifteen yr old , let alone now. everyone i knew loved SBBS ; virtually nobody had any other magazine records.<< I saw the Clash on the London Calling tour - fantastic. LC's a good album - it would have been a great single album....try London calling, Brand new Cadillac, Hateful, Lost in the Supermarket, Spanish bombs, Clampdown, Guns of Brixton, Death or Glory, I'm not down, Train in vain. Even better if you got Armagideon Time in there somewhere. I saw some of the Div 2 punks in 79-80 - 999, Chelsea (Right to Work four times), UK Subs....looked prehistoric even then. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:05:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine IPaul, << ////// well i know what you mean , although i love "psycle sluts" for one. but that last mag album (and play) are universally dissed it seems. interesting the M box set has 3/4 of play and not one MMW track. p >> MMW deserves it, but I always liked Play as a live album. Good choice of tracks and nicely played. Not surprised they stuck lots of it on the box set. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:11:05 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine George, << Either Formula or McGeogh was in one of the latter versions of PIL, I believe. >> It was McGeogh. Formula was last spotted on the 2nd Luxuria album, playing keyboards on some tracks. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 20:15:15 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Two drummers Ray, One of the most awesome openings to a gig was the unveiling of the spectacular "two drummers" Fall line-up at Fagin's in Manchester in about October 91. Fiery Jack, with Paul Hanley and Karl Burns on drums, Lard, Svcanlon and Hanley. Extended version, at the end of which some wag in the crowd shouted "Mark and the Ants". Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:18:04 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: Sparrow Fart > > While BEno was 'inventing' ambient, did he perhaps > hear Cluster, Kraftwerk and Tangerine Dream? After > reading Cale's book my opinion of this pompous > character is lowered still further. Have you read James Young's brilliant book about Nico? ('Songs they never play on the radio') He paints a hilarious picture of Cale very at odds with his public image producing an early 80s Nico album and he's basically a farting, slobbering, bloated piss artist up to his eyeballs in Coke, attempting to squeeze the last few drops out of talent out of the (by now) smack-addled Nico who has losy her looks and been reduced to sharing syringes with J.Cooper Clarke and his pasty faced mates in Prestwich digs. Quite an eye opener. Great book > Hey Tim, when you cast Moby into the pit can you dig a > bit of space for all the glam rockers too? The only > Wire song with a faint trace of glam is 'Feeling > Called Love' which is perhaps my least favourite Wire > tune - that one actually worked better with George > Gill on guitar! Nah thats a belter! Thats not glam rock...its a Troggs homage with the Louie Louie chords and everything. I can't cast Glam Rock into the pit with Badly Drawn Boy, Westlife and Moby for three reasons... 1.) That ugly bloke in his mums make-up from Sweet saying 'we just haven't got a clue what to do' in scary TOTP performance (brickies in silver platforms man! Genius!) 2.) I always enjoy two drummers in a band! 3.) That oft-repeated clip of Dave Hill (Slade) walking round his house eating his breakfast dressed in full Glitter battledress; and having unwittingly moved to a house adjacent to a girls school, popping his head round the door (fully glittered up of course) and giving the waiting crowd of hormonal 12 years olds the cheesiset grin in all history. But then I was only about 2 when all this was going on so I only get the 'good bits'. No one really listens to that stuff though do they? > Heard 3 songs off Radiohead - title track's like > something Aphex Twin could've farted out in his sleep > and discarded as dull seven years ago, Reminds me of Madonna who also has a habit of catching onto trends two years later....witness her new single where she discovers 'Ali G' and French Disko 1998 style! I gather the rythmn section are not to pleased at Radioheads 'new' direction...bit like Gotobed when Wire went electro. I suppose if some kid listens to 'Kid A' and decides to buy an Autechre record instead of something by Muse or Alife then thats a kind of victory for the leftfield innit. Hope Radioheads promo people and record company are really pissed off...wonder what Uncle Sam will make of it all...any reports from US of Stateside? another instrumental was like a tenth rate watered down Labradford, the other one sounded like they'd tried and failed to rip off Sigur Ros - innovation! I'd like to rip Sigur Ros tiny little heads off! Now thats prog folks. 'Yes' with no sense of humour! They even had a special carpet on stage at the Contact Theatre....they are this wretched little band that keep showing up as support to every band I go and see and ruin the whole evening the ponderous little bastards......oh god its like another Moby rant! I used to argue endlessly about these with an Icelandic friend....and we met Graham Lewis earlier this year and he said he loved them and she won the argument forever. Doh! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:22:12 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: Moby = Dick Hey Hey! Best scene in that is when he secures the deal with the businessman and accidentally calls him 'Dad' and then decides to go back to his hotel room to celebrate his sucess..."..A Wank I think!" Sorry for being so Anglocentric there folks! MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Tim, > > << God spare us from his insipid coffee table musak for and leave it to the > Gareth Cheeseman's of this world (sorry non UK listees...I was referring to > Steve Coogans brilliantly observed Software Salesman there...) >> > > You're a tiger...grrrrr! > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 01:30:54 +0100 From: Tim Robinson Subject: Re: Off Topic: Magazine > Formula was involved with HD's solo stuff post-Magazine (and the > Luxuria stuff too) though I don't know if he's still involved in music. What is it about early 80s Manchester musicians having sort of mathematical surnames? There's Dave Formula from Magazine, Andy Diagram from Dislocation Dance (the singer with whom now works with me as an accountant, 80s indie-jazz fact-fans!) and there was Eric Random who played with Nico and Caberet Voltaire and ACR I think.... Can anyone think of any other minor early 80s Mancunian indie muso's with scientific sounding names? What a greart thread this is! Come on Wire release some ropey solo works and give us something to talk about!! ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #306 *******************************