From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #286 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, September 20 2000 Volume 03 : Number 286 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #285 [P.Wilson@bury.gov.uk] Re: the future of media [Ian Grant ] RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #285 ["giluz" ] The Future of Media [Wireviews ] Web Radio [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] Re: The future of media ["Katherine Pouliot" ] RE: The future of media ["giluz" ] Re: The future of media [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: The future of media ["Katherine Pouliot" ] Re: Web Radio ["A. Izenstark" ] Re: Re The Fall RFH22.9.00 [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: The future of media [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] a bargain at $70 yeah [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: Web Radio ["stephenjohnstone" ] Favorite Wire Sleeve ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re The fallRFH/oxon [alan gray ] RE:The future of media ["wiremailorder.com" ] Re: Web Radio [Dave Walker ] Re: The future of media [Dave Walker ] Re: Web Radio ["Alyce Ornella" ] CD Lengths [george.m.hook@ac.com] RE:The future of media [Paul Pietromonaco ] Naff music on runners' Walkmen ["sean bowen" ] Re: cd art (was RE: The future of media) [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: Naff music on runners' Walkmen [MarkBursa@aol.com] CD, vinyl, zzzzz... [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] RE: Web Radio ["giluz" ] Re: Re The fallRFH/oxon [Mark Short ] RE: The future of media ["giluz" ] RE: CD, vinyl, zzzzz... ["giluz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:54:00 +0100 From: P.Wilson@bury.gov.uk Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #285 Is vinyl really so expensive? Yes, my turntable is quite state-of-the-art (took me a number of years to save up for it), but it only cost me twice the amount I paid for my CD player (Micromega). And I know for a fact that in 5 years time the CD player will give up on me! Since I started buying hi-fi (28 years ago), I'm on my second turntable - and my first one is still going strong at a friends house! I bought my first CD player about 12 years ago, and I'm already on my third one! The turntable I now own will outlast me! As to vinyl decay. Does it really? The sound quality doesn't degrade that much over time (unless you play the LP in excess of 1000 times). If vinyl is cared for - it lasts. CD's have still to prove themselves - there are numerous instances of CD's deteriorating. And when they do, they become unplayable. Vinyl stays playable (even if a little degraded). I agree that vinyl has become elitist. But it isn't my fault. I'd always buy vinyl if I could, even though it is more expensive nowadays. Just because something is new, doesn't make it better. CD's are convenient. So what! I for one, am more than happy with the sound which still emits from the grooves of my 20+ year old "Chairs Missing". Oh, one thing I will concede - CD's are pretty damn good for copying music onto! As a recording medium - they can't be beat! (Unless they're filled with MP3's!!!!) God help us if we end up only having those awful things to listen to!!! Paul KW ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:56:01 +0100 From: Ian Grant Subject: Re: the future of media At 04:30 19/09/2000 -0400, Jeff wrote: >The problem I see with all these predictions of media that hold oodles of >data is this: who needs it? You note these HyperDiscs (there - i just made >up their name: now pay me) are intended for computer data - okay, I can >see the need for 65,000 MB of data there - but I'm not sure I'd really >want, say, every Wire release on a single CD. You'd lose a whole lot in >packaging - there'd barely be room for all the song titles - and to me, >the visual presentation of recordings is nearly as important as the music. More to the point, one of the major consequences of the transition to compact discs has been that artists feel obliged to fill the damn things up. At least you can skip bonus tracks...but when was the last time anyone released a hip-hop album that, as an entirety, was less than seventy minutes long? Probably about the same time that someone released a hip-hop album that wasn't fifty percent filler, I guess. So, being able to store several days' worth of music on one disc might *seem* like an excellent idea. But you just wait until Goldie or Wu-Tang get their hands on it. These people make albums that expand to fill the available space, after all. Track 3,294: Ghostface Killah sneezes. Track 5,312: Ghostface Killah sneezes (reprise). Cheers, ig. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:55:59 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #285 > Is vinyl really so expensive? I wasn't only talking about the turntables and other accessories. Vinyl records themselves are now much more expensive than CD's, because they're not mass produced anymore. > and I'm already on my third one! The turntable I now own will outlast me! > As to vinyl decay. Does it really? The sound quality doesn't degrade that > much over time (unless you play the LP in excess of 1000 times). Maybe you should really have a state of the art turntable then to enjoy vinyl properly. I don't and my record collection sounds really naff today. I got tired of replacing the needle every few months and trying to find a dealer that has the right equipment. A friend of mine, who has a real good turntable, can't find any needles for it because it's really old and no-one knows where to get them from. > If vinyl is > cared for - it lasts. CD's have still to prove themselves - there are > numerous instances of CD's deteriorating. And when they do, they become > unplayable. Vinyl stays playable (even if a little degraded). You're right there - a bad vinyl is playable, and all that cracking really gives a sort of fireside feeling which is quite nice. But some of my albums reached the state when they are really unplayable. I think people should pay more attention to digital remastering fuck-ups than to the possibility of CD deterioration. That's a major digital problem, when things you have on vinyl don't sound the same on CD, just because some people didn't work hard enough. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 04:01:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: The Future of Media >>> The problem I see with all these predictions of media that hold oodles of data is this: who needs it? You note these HyperDiscs (there - i just made up their name: now pay me) are intended for computer data - okay, I can see the need for 65,000 MB of data there - but I'm not sure I'd really want, say, every Wire release on a single CD. >>> The discs are intended to be cross-platform, ie: for PCs, audio, or video (re: DVD). Who needs the data? Well, I'd like it, for a start. Okay, so every 'Wire' release on a CD might be a bit OTT, but how about IBTABA, with a full screen digital version of the Eardrum Buzz video, various web links/lyrics and so forth. Okay, so DVD can more-or-less do that now, but it's still compressed quite a lot -- the bigger the media's capacity, the better the quality of what's stored on it. Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:54:24 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Web Radio Does anyone know of a good radio station I can pick up on the web? Chris. The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 10:52:32 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: The future of media I find that buying music CDs and vinyl (still, yes, sometimes) is so much more exciting to me than having a "file" on a hard drive somewhere. It's sort of like the modern choice of having a palm pilot vs. using pen and paper or a paper calendar. I bought a palm pilot this year and it really helped me in a lot of ways, but I still like to buy nice pens and nice paper, write to people and make lists the old fashioned way. I sometimes use sealing wax on letters!! There is so much more art to the old fashioned ways, sometimes. There is so much nostalgia, as well as the tactile and visual sensations experienced by doing things the old fashioned ways, writing letters and using nice stationery. I think it's the same thing with pulling an album out of the sleeve and looking at the pictures on the album cover, or pulling the booklet out of the CD case. Just keying in something or clicking and dragging may be more "convenient" but they steal a lot of pleasure away from the experience, in my opinion. katherine ..almost unpacked! - ----- Original Message ----- From: giluz To: IdealCopy ; Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 5:09 AM Subject: RE: The future of media > > The problem I see with all these predictions of media that hold oodles of > > data is this: who needs it? You note these HyperDiscs (there - i just made > > up their name: now pay me) are intended for computer data - okay, I can > > see the need for 65,000 MB of data there - but I'm not sure I'd really > > want, say, every Wire release on a single CD. You'd lose a whole lot in > > packaging - there'd barely be room for all the song titles - and to me, > > the visual presentation of recordings is nearly as important as the music. > > But it'll never be worse than the move from vinyl LP's to CD's. That was the > death sentence of music packaging, and I can't think of anything new which > will be relatively worse. One of the favourite things you could do with new > records is to flip through the sleeve and everything while you listen to it > for the 1st time. I do this out of habit now, but it's not the same with > CD's. Think of all the great sleeve designs you had on vinyl - nothing that > good ever came out on CD - it's just too small, it's in a plastic case, made > of thin paper, the sleevenotes are either too short or it's a kinda small > (but too thick) book. Look at the sleeve of Sgt. Pepper, look at all the > sleeves of those old Faust LP's and compare them to their CD releases - it's > fucking pathetic!!! OK, so people would say - those were sleeves that > weren't designed for CD's, so of course they wouldn't look good on CD's, but > can you think of anything comparable originally released on CD? > > > At a professional recording level, there may well be some advantages to > > analogue recording - but as a consumer medium, vinyl's inferior, simply > > because in order to get sound quality as good as CD, you need much more > > expensive equipment, and the vinyl decays rapidly. That is, it's actually > > more elitist than CDs are. > > > > Yeah, I agree completely. I couldn't be bothered to take care of my vinyls > and turntable now. But there's one thing to be said in favour of vinyl > (apart from the all that's been said soundwise): I can't imagine that any of > today's or tomorrow's digital storage medias could be turned into a musical > instrument. > > Vinyl doesn't suck - it's just too expensive... > > giluz > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:16:29 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: The future of media > -----Original Message----- > From: Katherine Pouliot [mailto:kep99@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 4:53 PM > To: giluz; IdealCopy; Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > Subject: Re: The future of media > > > I find that buying music CDs and vinyl (still, yes, sometimes) is so much > more exciting to me than having a "file" on a hard drive somewhere. It's > sort of like the modern choice of having a palm pilot vs. using pen and > paper or a paper calendar. Absolutely right! Is there anyone here who never bought an album (vinyl or CD) even though he or she already had it recorded on tape, MD, CD or HD? I've done it lots of times, and basically it's just for the pack, not for the music. Purchasing via direct disk downloading must find an appropriate solution to this, otherwise it wouldn't work. But is it that crucial, or are we just being sucked (again) into the capitalist record industry machine? At the end, what's most important is the music. There was never any discussion here about Wire's record sleeves, which comes to prove it. We do mess around with small and not very important pieces of information concerning Wire but we never talk about the way their CD's/records are packed. So why do we waste money on it? (don't get me wrong here, I'll never dream of not having any Wire release in its original (could be reissued, I'm not that fanatic) form. I was just wondering if it's really worth it). So - what's anyone's favourite Wire sleeve then? I guess mine's Pink Flag (even though it's not my favourite album) and Chairs Missing. I don't particularly care for the 80's sleeves, though. By the way, just been to CDnow and looked under Colin Newman. Apparently Don't Bring Reminders and Alone are available as downloads ($2.99 each). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:03:05 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: The future of media Katherine, Couldn't agree more. For me it's about having a permanent copy of the artist's work presented in the way the artist intended (I know artists don't always agree with what record companies do but you get my drift)..... For that reason I've never bought albums on cassette (not permanent)....has to be vinyl or CD. Like Giluz, I'm not interested in whether it's original issue or reissue - whatever sounds right is fine by me. I do use my computer as a CD player when I'm working - but I wouldn't want to have to load up MP3s whenever I want to listen to an album in my living room. Same reason I like books to be made of paper I guess... Mark << I find that buying music CDs and vinyl (still, yes, sometimes) is so much more exciting to me than having a "file" on a hard drive somewhere. It's sort of like the modern choice of having a palm pilot vs. using pen and paper or a paper calendar. I bought a palm pilot this year and it really helped me in a lot of ways, but I still like to buy nice pens and nice paper, write to people and make lists the old fashioned way. I sometimes use sealing wax on letters!! There is so much more art to the old fashioned ways, sometimes. There is so much nostalgia, as well as the tactile and visual sensations experienced by doing things the old fashioned ways, writing letters and using nice stationery. I think it's the same thing with pulling an album out of the sleeve and looking at the pictures on the album cover, or pulling the booklet out of the CD case. Just keying in something or clicking and dragging may be more "convenient" but they steal a lot of pleasure away from the experience, in my opinion. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 12:40:41 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: The future of media - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 12:03 PM Subject: Re: The future of media > Katherine, > > Couldn't agree more. For me it's about having a permanent copy of the > artist's work presented in the way the artist intended (I know artists don't > always agree with what record companies do but you get my drift)..... Yes, I agree, and you said it much better than I. I have so many great memories of sitting around looking through my parents' albums, and listening to them and dreaming about all sorts of things. Not many times anymore when I just sit and listen to music and peruse through the packaging. It's all about mega input all the time. I listen while driving, or while working, or while doing chores at the house, or while exercising. I've got to set a goal to just sit and put the big old headphones on and listen for a while, and do nothing else!! > > For that reason I've never bought albums on cassette (not permanent)....has > to be vinyl or CD. Like Giluz, I'm not interested in whether it's original > issue or reissue - whatever sounds right is fine by me. I am guilty of buying a lot of cassettes when I was a teenager. I still have some of them, and plan on getting CDs of many of them. I have a long list that I'm converting slowly but surely. > > I do use my computer as a CD player when I'm working - but I wouldn't want to > have to load up MP3s whenever I want to listen to an album in my living room. > Same reason I like books to be made of paper I guess... Exactly! PS: Going against a lot of what I was saying, here's something funny and modern to check out. We just got the game "The Sims" and you can put MP3s into a file and have the Sims listen to your MP3s while the game is playing. ("The Ideal Copy..") hahhah Katherine '-) > > Mark > > << I find that buying music CDs and vinyl (still, yes, sometimes) is so much > more exciting to me than having a "file" on a hard drive somewhere. It's > sort of like the modern choice of having a palm pilot vs. using pen and > paper or a paper calendar. I bought a palm pilot this year and it really > helped me in a lot of ways, but I still like to buy nice pens and nice > paper, write to people and make lists the old fashioned way. I sometimes > use sealing wax on letters!! There is so much more art to the old fashioned > ways, sometimes. There is so much nostalgia, as well as the tactile and > visual sensations experienced by doing things the old fashioned ways, > writing letters and using nice stationery. I think it's the same thing with > pulling an album out of the sleeve and looking at the pictures on the album > cover, or pulling the booklet out of the CD case. Just keying in something > or clicking and dragging may be more "convenient" but they steal a lot of > pleasure away from the experience, in my opinion. >> > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 13:36:02 -0400 From: "A. Izenstark" Subject: Re: Web Radio Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk wrote: > Does anyone know of a good radio station I can pick up on the web? My personal fave is WZBC, at www.wzbc.org . They're the station that did an evening of Dome a couple of months ago. You're most likely to hear Wire-related stuff Wednesday nights on Brian's and Paul's shows, starting at 7:00 pm Eastern time (11:00 pm GMT), but any of the NCP (No Commercial Potential) programs are worth a listen! A. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:33:35 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: Re The Fall RFH22.9.00 << but seriously , i see on the fall site that they're playing oxford in november (the 19th i think). now thinking about where the uk listers i know live (2 in leicester , 1 in oxford , a few in the home counties , me near birmingham) you probably couldn't get a more central point. and the fall are generally worth a look. just a thought...... p >> Sounds a good idea....we could meet up at the Museum of Modern Art.... Mark >> ////// nice idea. the plan does need some work though. the fall website says the gig is on sun 14th nov , which doesn't exist (sunday is the 19th). either a cunning money-making ruse by mes or a typo.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:41:54 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: The future of media So - what's anyone's favourite Wire sleeve then? I guess mine's Pink Flag (even though it's not my favourite album) and Chairs Missing. I don't particularly care for the 80's sleeves, though. /////gotta be 154 i think By the way, just been to CDnow and looked under Colin Newman. Apparently Don't Bring Reminders and Alone are available as downloads ($2.99 each). ////$6 for 2 tracks , you could pick up a copy of A-Z for that with those 2 on plus about 15 more tracks. so what's the point? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:49:50 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: a bargain at $70 yeah huh , that 8-track cartridge went for $70 . and no , it wasn't me. with postage that's like £55.........ouch. i take my hat off to whoever lumped up that kind of cash , obviously a serious dude. maybe that sort of daft money will flush a few more out , it'd look so nice sitting on the mantelpiece. anyway , today i got thru the post a german "outdoor miner" 7". nice pic of the band on the cover , totally different to the uk "leopard" pic. got it for a tenner , i've seen these things go for like £30-40 which seemed silly but i thought i'd better grab it for 10. i mean , not as nice as that 8-track but it'll have to do. question ; were any of the other emi singles released in different sleeves in other places? just wondered.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:56:35 +0100 From: "stephenjohnstone" Subject: Re: Web Radio Chris, Not exactly a radio station but lots of good feeds. Im still not sure what the site is about yet but It has some wir, newman. Best of all there is a 2 hour concert of Einsturzende neubauten from 1999 which is excellent. suggest you look for your self. Steve http://orang.orang.org/ - Radio Internationale Stadt Radio International City is an art and cultural project and has been startet in 1996. It offers a dynamical platform for the presentation of audio content for independant artists and other creative people in the cultural environment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:03:32 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Favorite Wire Sleeve Paul wrote: So - what's anyone's favourite Wire sleeve then? I guess mine's Pink Flag (even though it's not my favourite album) and Chairs Missing. I don't particularly care for the 80's sleeves, though. =========== I'd have to vote for Manscape, which is my least favorite Wire album musically, followed by the minimalist Pink Flag. Cheers, Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:19:38 -0400 (EDT) From: alan gray Subject: Re The fallRFH/oxon << but seriously , i see on the fall site that they're playing >>oxford in >>november (the 19th i think). now thinking about where the uk >>listers i know >>live (2 in leicester , 1 in oxford , a few in the home >>counties , me near >>birmingham) you probably couldn't get a more central point. >>and the fall >>are >>generally worth a look. just a thought...... p >> >>Sounds a good idea....we could meet up at the Museum of Modern >>Art.... I swore I wouldn't see the Fall again after the Camden gig a few years back,when they started off sans a complete line up and went on to be the only band I've seen split up during a gig. Now I'm wavering with the RFH, can they disappoint and annoy a festival hall full of people? Probably. Will I be there? probably... But I would be wary of travelling as far as Oxford to see them. It might be very good, but it could end up as a Jude the Obscure event. Alan - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:20:41 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: RE:The future of media Got to think that the CD will be around for a very very long time. If the "industry" - record and hifi - think they can through another format our way, I think they're in for a rough ride. And very well they should be - what would I do with a new Audio format? Why should anyone re-buy any music? I can not possibly enhance the listening experience. One would be better off buying a new living room.... DVD is promising - CD for Video right? But we're all fools if we bite at another physical format get thrown our way... Now, a portable CD player that plays CD-Rs with MP3 files.........! c ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:25:18 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: Web Radio Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk wrote: > Does anyone know of a good radio station I can pick up on the web? > > Chris. http://bewitched.dyndns.org/radio.html -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 15:43:47 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: The future of media For all the snide comments you hear about "consumer sheep", people have a pretty acute sense of when they're being taken for a ride. A format shift for audio (or video, or books, etc.) will only happen when there is a perceived benefit to consumers. With vinyl to CD, it was the promise of "perfect sound forever" (cough, cough). Regardless of how CDs underperformed in relation to this promise, they provided the average consumer with enough perceived value (no more pops & crackles, greater portability, bonus tracks ) whatever) to motivate a critical mass of consumers to migrate. Likewise, DVDs have been successful thus far for many of the same reasons (perceived durability, better AV fidelity, bonus materials included w/ movies, etc.) On the other hand, the DIVX pay-per-view disc scheme fell flat because it was transparently clear that its goal was to nail the consumer. Joe Britney is not going to upgrade his copy of _Baby One More Time_ to SuperDuperVeeDee because Philips tells him that there's .00162% less total harmonic distortion (oh yeah, and this superkewl new watermarking scheme that requires that the music only be played on appropriately licensed SDMI-compliant Sony-registered playback devices). From his point of view, he's already got "perfect sound forever." -d.w. "wiremailorder.com" wrote: > Got to think that the CD will be around for a very very long time. If the > "industry" - record and hifi - think they can through another format our > way, I think they're in for a rough ride. And very well they should be - > what would I do with a new Audio format? Why should anyone re-buy any music? > I can not possibly enhance the listening experience. One would be better off > buying a new living room.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:50:22 CDT From: "Alyce Ornella" Subject: Re: Web Radio My friend and I have a radio show thru school (the school of the art institute of chicago) that will be going on the web sometime next month (i'll give the address then), but just to promote it to you guys ahead of time.....we're going to be playing mostly british punk, lots of Wire, bands along that vein... also the american counterparts and stuff like Can and Fela Kuti as well.... Alyce _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:08:29 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: CD Lengths Sure, but now I can listen to Mozart's Symphony 40 and 41 on the same compact disc without turning it over or putting on another disc (oops, sorry, for the mention of Mozart on a Wire chat line, but I like 'em both) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:19:45 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE:The future of media >Now, a portable CD player that plays CD-Rs with MP3 files.........! > They exist - I've seen a review of a couple of these players. (Can't remember their names offhand, though.) I'd suggest you wait a little bit - The reviewers thought that they didn't work all that well. (^_^) - -Paul *********************************************************** Brain: "Pinky, Are You Pondering What I'm Pondering?" Pinky: "I think so Brain, but can the gummy worms really live in peace with the marshmallow chips?" Paul Pietromonaco Test Engineer - Reflection X WRQ, Inc. E-Mail: paulp@wrq.com *********************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:51:55 +0100 From: "sean bowen" Subject: Naff music on runners' Walkmen - ----- Original Message ----- From: > > ////// maybe they could borrow a copy of dan's "flock of seagulls greatest > hits" and do a little substitution to undermine the opposition? or would they > run faster to escape........... p > I'd reccommend AFOS for the Kenyans, ELO for the Ethiopians, and Mouth & McNeil (on personal 8-track stereo cartridge) for the Moroccans. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:18:26 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: cd art (was RE: The future of media) In a message dated 9/19/0 4:25:50 AM, giluz@nettalk.com writes: > > >can you think of anything comparable originally released on CD? not really a shameless plug for myself, since my website features someone else's artwork...but please do check out my website Trudge (http://members.tripod.com/~Trudge) featured there is the artwork of bruce licher, proprietor of independent project records & press IPR (basically just an online business card at the official site for now). at trudge you will see music packages (mostly record sleeves right now), postcards and other printed ephemera, all created by licher on handfed letterpresses. i think his work is quite remarkable. it has been copied by fireproof press and others (but never equaled imho). the best thing he ever did for the cd was to package it in an all cardboard "discfolio" for which i believe he holds several patents. anyway, to bring this close to "on-topic"...he has done the packages for the first two cds by tone, and possibly the new one i haven't seen yet though. the two most recent ones were produced by robert poss of...gilbertpossstenger! whew - -other paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:46:30 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Naff music on runners' Walkmen Sean << I'd reccommend AFOS for the Kenyans, ELO for the Ethiopians, and Mouth & McNeil (on personal 8-track stereo cartridge) for the Moroccans. >> What'd you call a portable cartridge player? A Cartman? Mark ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 22:04:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: CD, vinyl, zzzzz... Just to address a few points raised here: I'm 38, so i grew up with vinyl - but still I have near-zero nostalgia for them. I simply do not understand those who think surface noise is somehow desirable or comforting - I want to hear what was recorded. If someone loves surface noise that much, buy the CD, have a turntable nearby, and find a record that skips on the runout groove so you can have an endless sensation of snap crackle pop. As for CD's decaying: I've been buying CDs for 14 years. I have about 4000 of them. As far as I know, not one of them is decaying. (I know none of the first handful I bought are decaying.) Vinuyl, on the other hand, no matter how hard one takes care of it, develops surface noise, inevitably. Half the time, LPs have surface noise from the start. (When LPs were the mass media favored by the industry & public, quality control was a lot looser.0 And don't even get me started on how crappy 45s are: invariably, they're full of surface noise from the start, and about half the time, they're pressed off-center, so everything wobbles drunkenly. All of that is cool if you're doing it intentionally...but please, spare me the accidents! The artwork issue is perhaps relevant. First, I'd disagree with those who don't consider packaging an integral part of a CD/LP/etc. I seldom develop as strong a relationship with the music I own only on self-recorded cassettes - at least not until I buy a "real" recording of it. (It's nto the musical quality that's the problem either.) I agree that many early CD reissues simply shrunk album-sized artwork to CD size, which sucks. But good designers now work with the size of packaging. *Any* size will encourage some approaches, limit others. As for outstanding CD packaging that originated on CD, I'd point to many of the letterpress cardboard packages small independent presses like Fireproof in Chicago have put out. Vaccination Records out of CA has put out several outstanding cardboard packages. Another potential packaging approach unique to CDs, that LPs cannot do, involves jewelboxes with clear trays: images can be layered in different ways. Sometimes designers use translucent paper to create a palimpsest of images. Two outstanding designs I'd point to: the Bows CD, and a band from California called Pledge Drive who also utilized printing directly onto the plastic. Similarly, Brad Jones a few years back used the surface of the disk itself as the main visual element: there was no front insert to the jewel box, only his name (and maybe the title) printed directly on the plastic front cover. As for the life of the players themselves: I'm not sure how old mine is, but it's more than a few years old. But serious listeners who can afford to do so have always upgraded their equipment periodically - the only reason turntable fans may not is that there may not be many new turntable technologies! Hmmmm...that's all for now. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::Why should we value the work ethic ::when employers care so little about the pay ethic? __Barbara Ehrenreich__ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:01:26 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Web Radio > we're going to be playing mostly british punk, lots of > Wire, bands > along that vein... > also the american counterparts and stuff like Can and Fela Kuti > as well.... > Alyce > Sounds cool. Give us the dates and times when you have them (in CET please). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:06:16 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: Re: Re The fallRFH/oxon alan gray wrote: > It might be very good, but it could end up as a Jude the Obscure event. > > Alan First Mozart gets a namecheck, now we get an allusion to Hardy. It's Dead White Males Day on The Ideal Copy. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:20:29 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: The future of media > For all the snide comments you hear about "consumer sheep", > people have a pretty acute sense of when they're being > taken for a ride. That might be true in Europe and the States but not in Israel. Israelis are consumer sheep - you can do whatever you like to them: You can make your product real expensive and they'd buy it, you can give bad and indecent service and they'd come back to you, you can sell them flowed goods and they'd continue buying the same products from the same companies. As for other more reasonable people (i.e. non-Israelis), they might have more acute sense but not always : Why did VHS succeed while BETA, which was a superior and smaller format failed then? Why did mini-discs fail 10 years ago (and why do they gain popularity now)? What about Philips' digital tape thing? - I forgot what it was called, but this format even had official releases of albums by record companies (I never tried it out or read anything about it - was it any good?). The hi-fi world is so full of shit, and as technology progresses people understand less and buy things they just hear about but don't know what they mean. But you're right in one thing: most people would not replace their music collection for the 2nd time in the last 20 years. Any new format would have to support backwards compatability, just like you can still use your DVD player as a CD player. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:28:38 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: CD, vinyl, zzzzz... > And don't even get me started on how crappy 45s are: invariably, > they're full of surface noise from the start, and about half the time, > they're pressed off-center, so everything wobbles drunkenly. All of that > is cool if you're doing it intentionally...but please, spare me the > accidents! > It's not the speed that counts but the size. If you ever noticed it, the quality of any vinyl LP gets bad as it nears its end, towards the final grooves where the radius is smaller. 45 RPM 12" singles or albums sound much better than 33+1/3 RPM 12"'s. They also sound better over time. It's the same reason as in the movies, where a 16 frames per second picture would look much worse than a 24 frames per second picture. 7" singles were not designed to last more than a few months, so I guess that according to you, since it's done intentionally, then it's cool. giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #286 *******************************