From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #274 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, September 8 2000 Volume 03 : Number 274 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Beatles Mono Reissues ["giluz" ] RE: HUGE difference in Morning Moon Mercy? ["giluz" ] Re: from a flaming pie [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Beatles Mono Reissues [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: eminem [Stephen Harper ] Re: eminem ["lucifersam" ] RE: Beatles Mono Reissues [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] RE: Beatles Mono Reissues ["giluz" ] RE: eminem ["giluz" ] misanthropic murderers ["dMc" ] Re: from a flaming pie ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: HUGE difference in Morning Moon Mercy? ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: eminem ["Gary Turner" ] RE: Beatles Mono Reissues [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: eminem [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:14:28 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Beatles Mono Reissues Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > I'd heard the reasoning was less invidious. Essentially, the stereo mixes > in those days were afterthoughts, not really the way the band or George > Martin intended them to be heard. And I believe it was Martin who was > behind the decision. > This sounds just like Zappa's rerecording of the rhythm section for the CD reissue of "We're Only In It For the Money". For years I was amazed by the quality of the drums sound, that was supposed to be recorded on a 3-track in 1967, only to find out later that it was overdubbed during the 80's. I can understand why Martin wasn't pleased with the way stereo sounded in the beginning of the 60's, but that's how it was done then, and that's the way it was released. They also used inferior equipment those days - why not redo the whole thing again? Leave all of John's stuff in and get the other 3 in the studio to do it properly this time for once!!! Personally, I can't get enough of this primitive stereo imagery. And it's also one of the things that characterise 60's music in the same way that, let's say, those old radio microphones characterise big band tunes from the 30's. It's just not the same without it. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:48:15 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: HUGE difference in Morning Moon Mercy? > Syarzhuk said > >>There is a HUGE difference between "lyrics about > something" and "lyrics that make you think about > something"<< > > Can you explain what you mean a little more clearly > and maybe give some examples? > It seems tome to be at best a meaningless statement, > or at least a gross generalisation, because lyrics > about something could also make you think about that > same something. I think what Syarzhuk meant was that he'd much prefer the more subtle references to politics than saying it out loud. It is true that a song like the Kinks' Dead End Street, which deals with unemployment in a very generalised way is still valid today, and that a song like Dead Kennedy's California Uber Alles is less so, because I guess even Americans don't remember who Jerry Brown was nowadays. I don't think it undermines the "arty" value of the songs, though, for a few reasons: 1. I've always been less a lyrics person and more a music person, so a song might have lyrics which don't relate to me at all and I could still like it (I don't understand most of Wire's lyrics, for example). 2. When I listen to music, I always try to imagine how it relates to its time and to the current times as well. I know that there are lots of things I don't know about various times in various places and that I'll never be able to understand them like the people that actually lived then. Still, I would much rather listen to something which is "of its time" than something that tries to be an all universal timeless song, not dependant on the place or time it was released (impossible concept, really). Wire and the Fall, for example, are two bands that are so fundamentally British, that I know there are lots of things in their albums that I don't understand or just misinterpret. It doesn't really concern me - I love them anyway. 3. Timelessness is something that doesn't really exist in art - art products are reinterpreted again and again all the time - these interpretations determine whether they'll be considered as valid or not. So a 20 years old song may sound current today, dated in 5 years time and current again after 10 years. It depends more on the time when it is reinterpreted than on the time when it was made. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:25:25 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: from a flaming pie Dan, Either way, it's guaranteed to make you drive faster....and bring on attacks of road rage! Mark << Makes me wonder which one I'd hear if I were somehow able to play it on my car stereo ... which obviously I might as well resign myself to calling a car mono. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:29:46 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Beatles Mono Reissues Giluz, << Leave all of John's stuff in and get the other 3 in the studio to do it properly this time for once!!!<< And get Jeff Lynne in to produce it!!!! Oops..... >>Personally, I can't get enough of this primitive stereo imagery. And it's also one of the things that characterise 60's music in the same way that, let's say, those old radio microphones characterise big band tunes from the 30's. It's just not the same without it. >> Agreed. Add the "remix" of The Byrds' Lady Friend to he chamber of horrors - complete with '90s big drums.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 04:35:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: Re: eminem Katherine, Don't want to add much to what giluz has already said, but what has Eminem's personal life got to do with anything? As this is a music list and not a court of law (or an online family values conference) why don't we focus on musical, not personal standards. Thievery! Heavens, isn't that (according to Kevin's book) what George Gill did when "acquiring" equipment for the early Wire? Suppose one discovered that Colin dealt drugs or that Graham *really did* "top an albino" in a buffalo lodge. Would that alter your perspective on The Ideal Copy or Catch Supposes? Stephen - --- Katherine Pouliot wrote: > I think that music critics and media people > give way too many rave reviews > and praise to people like Eminem. Eminem is an > angry messed up kid, acting > like a thug. He is constantly disrespectful to > others including his wife > and child, he constantly pushes people's > buttons, whines on and on about his > own personal problems, and that is rewarded > with labels like "genius", > "breaking new ground", etc. If this guy > couldn't rap, my guess is he'd be > relying on the drug trade, or thievery to make > his living. > > The standards for music in this country have > really gone to new lows, in my > opinion. > > --------- > Katherine > kep99@hotmail.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > > To: A Rich and Comfortable Life with Paper > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:53 AM > Subject: inaccurate subject line > > > > On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, giluz wrote: > > > > > Eminem are cool, by the way. > > > > So long as "cool" means "an obnoxious jerk > whose music no one will > > remember a few years from now," yes... > > > > --Jeff > > > > J e f f r e y N o r m a n > > The Architectural Dance Society > > www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html > > ::the sea is the night asleep in the > daytime:: > > __Robert Desnos__ > > > > > > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:46:02 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: eminem Without wishing to be contensious here (OK, I lied) Eminem's work is based around his personal life, which he seems only too keen to share with us (obviously under the impression that we are interested!). We already know that he thought his mother a 'Whore' and a junkie, and what a crap life he had as a kid. So I think it perfectly valid that people to take into account the fact that he beats his wife or whatever. I wonder if he'll sing/rap/whine about that? With the greatest of respect, yours cordially, Le Cat Siamese....... > Katherine, > > Don't want to add much to what giluz has already > said, but what has Eminem's personal life got to > do with anything? As this is a music list and not > a court of law (or an online family values > conference) why don't we focus on musical, not > personal standards. > > Thievery! Heavens, isn't that (according to > Kevin's book) what George Gill did when > "acquiring" equipment for the early Wire? Suppose > one discovered that Colin dealt drugs or that > Graham *really did* "top an albino" in a buffalo > lodge. Would that alter your perspective on The > Ideal Copy or Catch Supposes? > > Stephen > > --- Katherine Pouliot wrote: > > I think that music critics and media people > > give way too many rave reviews > > and praise to people like Eminem. Eminem is an > > angry messed up kid, acting > > like a thug. He is constantly disrespectful to > > others including his wife > > and child, he constantly pushes people's > > buttons, whines on and on about his > > own personal problems, and that is rewarded > > with labels like "genius", > > "breaking new ground", etc. If this guy > > couldn't rap, my guess is he'd be > > relying on the drug trade, or thievery to make > > his living. > > > > The standards for music in this country have > > really gone to new lows, in my > > opinion. > > > > --------- > > Katherine > > kep99@hotmail.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey > > > > To: A Rich and Comfortable Life with Paper > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:53 AM > > Subject: inaccurate subject line > > > > > > > On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, giluz wrote: > > > > > > > Eminem are cool, by the way. > > > > > > So long as "cool" means "an obnoxious jerk > > whose music no one will > > > remember a few years from now," yes... > > > > > > --Jeff > > > > > > J e f f r e y N o r m a n > > > The Architectural Dance Society > > > www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html > > > ::the sea is the night asleep in the > > daytime:: > > > __Robert Desnos__ > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:40:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: Beatles Mono Reissues On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, giluz wrote: > Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > > I'd heard the reasoning was less invidious. Essentially, the stereo mixes > > in those days were afterthoughts, not really the way the band or George > > Martin intended them to be heard. And I believe it was Martin who was > > behind the decision. > > > > This sounds just like Zappa's rerecording of the rhythm section for the CD > reissue of "We're Only In It For the Money". For years I was amazed by the > quality of the drums sound, that was supposed to be recorded on a 3-track in > 1967, only to find out later that it was overdubbed during the 80's. I can > understand why Martin wasn't pleased with the way stereo sounded in the > beginning of the 60's, but that's how it was done then, and that's the way > it was released. They also used inferior equipment those days - why not redo > the whole thing again? Leave all of John's stuff in and get the other 3 in > the studio to do it properly this time for once!!! Errr...the Zappa recordings (which he later recanted) would be exactly the opposite of the approach Martin endorsed for the initial Beatles CD releases: *keep* the original, mono mixes; *don't* update with current technology. Also, I have to say I see a huge difference between rerecording parts (which is what Zappa did - the globby, late '70s bass on that rerecording was particularly obnoxious) and remixing them. Nobody said remixing parts has to mean that suddenly everything gets a modern commercial sheen, or that suddenly sixteen tons of reverb get added to the drums. Remixes can be done well or done poorly. I think most of the _Yellow Submarine_ remixes are well done - with the exception of "It's All Too Much," which grossly tames the guitar that should just leap out of the speakers and go directly for your throat. Note, too, that any remixing would be a crime if it made the original mono mixes unavailable - I too love the quirks of early '60s recording techniques (and early stereo, too). That is, I'm advocating a both/and position, which ought to please both the purists and the technophiles. Then, I'm not king, so it hardly matters, does it... - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::I play the guitar. Sometimes I play the fool:: __John Lennon__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:02:01 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Beatles Mono Reissues > Errr...the Zappa recordings (which he later recanted) would be exactly the > opposite of the approach Martin endorsed for the initial Beatles CD > releases: *keep* the original, mono mixes; *don't* update with current > technology. > Weren't the original early Beatles albums released with that primitive extreme panning stereo mix? I've got nothing against mono (quite the opposite, really), I just figured that the stereo mixes were the original. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:06:23 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: eminem > > > Without wishing to be contensious here (OK, I lied) > Eminem's work is based around his personal life, which > he seems only too keen to share with us (obviously under > the impression that we are interested!). We already know > that he thought his mother a 'Whore' and a junkie, and what > a crap life he had as a kid. So I think it perfectly valid > that people to take into account the fact that he beats his > wife or whatever. I wonder if he'll sing/rap/whine about that? > With the greatest of respect, > yours cordially, > Le Cat Siamese....... > > Alright - this poses even more problems, if only because it has some truth to it. What about, for example, a composer like Wagner, which not only was a racist, but also wrote music which could be considered (and it was considered, by himself and others) as fascist music? Is his music automatically revolting, then? I mean, I don't particularly like him (the few bits and pieces I got to hear, at least), but it wasn't because of his or his music's ideology - I just didn't like that bombastic unified style. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:23:11 -0500 From: "dMc" Subject: misanthropic murderers On this subject, i just finished reading John Fahey's "Bluegrass Music Ruined My Life". In one story (the 'stories' have a considerable autobiographic slant), Fahey muses on the high proportion of Blues singers who were convicted or accused murderers. John Lee Hooker and Bulla White come to mind. As for Public Enemy, didn't one of them have a history of wife-beating. Many of my favorite musicians are not people whose lives I envy or wish to emulate. Miles Davis and Charles Mingus come to mind. On the other hand there are Duke Ellington and Eric Dolphy. If I really valued only personal attributes I would have to listen to Amy Grant (for Christ's sake ;) All this aside - the Fahey book is HIGHLY recommended. And not JUST for the story of punching Michalangelo Antonini. (a true moralist, he) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:13:33 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Re: from a flaming pie >I always enjoyed the stereo mix of The Gift by the VU. A mad >psychedelic jam in one channel and John Cale reading a twisted >bedtime story in the other....you choose! Always loved that one. There also was an old Deep Purple song (I forgot which one, maybe "Soldier of Fortune") which had no vocals in one channel. I didn't realize one of my speakers died (I was 14, my setup consisted of a walkman, an outlet plug and cheapest car speakers connected to headphone jack) so I thought the song is an instrumental! Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 12:17:27 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Re: HUGE difference in Morning Moon Mercy? >Syarzhuk said >>>There is a HUGE difference between "lyrics about >something" and "lyrics that make you think about >something"<< >Can you explain what you mean a little more clearly >and maybe give some examples? Wire, "Finest Drops" The island monkeys love the dark No one is home, they're thin skinned sharks Hue exchanging gives sea-leg walks No one is home, the chemicals talk Load up the spoiled goods Hook up the spoiled gods Fill up the kindness cups Drink up the finest drops Dead Kennedys, "A Child and his Lawnmower" Some clown in Sacramento was drugged into court He shot his lawnmower It disobeyed, it wouldn't start Might makes right, it's the American Way (R) They fined him $60 and sent him on his way You know, some people don't take no shit Maybe if they did if they'd have half a brain left I think that more than proves my point. And mind you, I LOVE Dead Kennedys Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:33:11 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: Hankems Spankems Back in 88/89 when I was studying at Liverpool University, I made my second trip to Manchester (where I now live) to see a gig too good to miss... Wire were playing with the Rollins Band at UMIST. My Husker Du crazy friend and I were rather disappointed to find a cancellation notice outside the venue. But lo and behold! Spacemen 3 were playing the Boardwalk that very same night! Unfortunately a well meaning piss head directed us to the Band on the Wall, which, I would later discover, is on the other side of town. So we spent a couple of hours in a pub and caught the last train home. I finally got to see the Rollins a year or two later. He and the Band were doing the Duchess in Leeds, so I hitched over there with my girlfriend of the time. The Roliins Band played the most powerful rock gig I have ever witnessed, until I saw Faust in Edinburgh in 97. I was quite literally blown away. I saw the RB a few more times but these were always in much larger venues, and some of the raw power was lost. Rollins played punk/metal as it should be done and only went off the rails into self parody shortly after he bit the major label carrot, as is so often the way. The bass player, who I regarded as the real powerhouse of the band, was sacked for the heinous crime of smoking pot. LIke Giluz, I had a bad time at a festival during a Rollins set. Just coming down off a mystical blotter, I was hallucinating that I was at the Nuremberg rallies with Hank as the moustachioed genocidal clown. He did not take kindly to being pelted by hordes of impatient Bland Limp Shitty Pappers fans and rather than playing songs, began lecturing us all on the error of our nationality. Apparently Hankems seemed to think it fair to blame everyone on this island for the Pet Shop Boys. The band you saw, Giluz, was not THE Rollins Band but some bunch of average Zepwannabe metal boys whom he was producing. He sacked the old band (or they had enough of his little Hitler act and reverted to their more avant garde roots). Interestingly, bassist Andrew Weiss and drummer Sim Cain played with Black Flag guitarist Greg Ginn in a hardcore instrumental trio called Gone prior to their involvement with Herr Rollins. Their two albums on SST are fine if you're into that sort of thing, as I used to be almost to the exclusion of all else, except Wire. Rollins covered 'Ex Lion Tamer' on his hilarious Henrietta Collins and the Wife Beating Child Haters EP. Didn't do a bad job either! He also improved Queen's 'We Will Rock You' in the guise of 'I Have Come To Kill You'. I don't think the Mercury estate saw any royalties on that one. The best Rollins discs were all Black Flag ones IMO - Damaged, My War and Loose Nut. Anything after The End Of Silence (last album to teature Weiss who went off to play with Ween, a band who are far more keen on the Mary Jane!) is best avoided. Rollins also reissued Gang of Four on his (now defunct) label, and on Monday I got a near mint copy of the first Go4 single for a quid! I have never heard Eminem and quite likely never will. The photos are revolting enough! There is a pro-Eminem rant at http://brainwashed.com/brain/brainv03i23.html if anyone's interested... Not convinced myself! Otherwise, Giluz got good taste! I reckon you might dig 'krautrockers' Guru Guru. I'm listening to a compilation of their cosmic hippy freakout 1970's non-hits as I write. Picked it up because a member of Bardo Pond was raving about it. Also got discs by Rowland S. Howard (shits on N. Cave's last MOR effort), V/vm (splatter red/black vinyl George Michael noise molestation), Pita (Peter Rehberg would love to hear Bruce Gilbert remix My Bloody Valentine by the sounds of it), Dumb (Ex Dub Sex Manc group who have a very post-punk feel), Stock Hausen & Walkman (cheesey listening mutation) and Lobe's Hibernation. Thanks for the recommendation Craig! Lobe's good, but I'm more of a Silo Immersion with Bastard Symptoms! For those who've yet to hear it, I would describe Silo's 'Instar' as essential listening: a very addictive, hypnotic, rhythmic hook laden mutation of rock, kind of like a much more powerful and convincing Tarwater. Good to hear the Magazine Peel sessions are getting released - long overdue! What a shame the record company feels it has to sell me a bunch of songs I've already got too! Saw Mark E. Smith in Manchester city centre yesterday, which disproves my theory that he dissolves in daylight. Rollins also planned to reissue old Fall discs. MES and Rollins in the same room is a strange idea. The pages are full again! Joy! An Ex Nine Counter ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:39:28 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: eminem > Katherine, > > Don't want to add much to what giluz has already > said, but what has Eminem's personal life got to > do with anything? As this is a music list and not > a court of law (or an online family values > conference) why don't we focus on musical, not > personal standards. Hi Stephen, I agree with Jeffrey's last post - I'll say ditto to that. This is no court of law and it's hardly an online family values chat. Musical standards, IMO, involve things that I like and think are OK. I can't say that I categorize Eminem in that way, whether his videos are "funny" or not. > Thievery! Heavens, isn't that (according to > Kevin's book) what George Gill did when > "acquiring" equipment for the early Wire? Suppose > one discovered that Colin dealt drugs or that > Graham *really did* "top an albino" in a buffalo > lodge. Would that alter your perspective on The > Ideal Copy or Catch Supposes? My guess about Eminem possibly being a person who would resort to thievery if he was not a big poppa rap star, is my own guess, call it a hunch, not an accusation. There is a big distinction between one who steals something with an innocent enough reason, or is not involved in violence in the process, and one who does it intentionally, knowingly, with no remorse or goals to change to doing it the "legal". As for discovering possible hidden legal issues with any member of Wire - would that change my opinion of their albums? Well, let's see. Hmmmm... No. Would that change my perspective about them personally? Since I don't know them, that is kind of a mute point. However, I may think differently about what I think of them depending on what the "crime" was. Not from being a "court judge" or a crusader for family values, just IMO. Again, Jeffrey's post articulates a few points that I agree with, so give that a look. I don't know what topping an albino means, forgive me, I thought I had not lived that sheltered a life! ;-) katherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:14:55 -0500 From: "Gary Turner" Subject: Re: eminem > I don't know what topping an albino means, forgive me, I thought I > had not lived that sheltered a life! I think it has something to do with masturbation, but I can't be sure. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:40:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: Beatles Mono Reissues On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, giluz wrote: > > Errr...the Zappa recordings (which he later recanted) would be exactly the > > opposite of the approach Martin endorsed for the initial Beatles CD > > releases: *keep* the original, mono mixes; *don't* update with current > > technology. > > > > Weren't the original early Beatles albums released with that primitive > extreme panning stereo mix? I've got nothing against mono (quite the > opposite, really), I just figured that the stereo mixes were the original. No. Stereo didn't really take over until the dominant mode until the mid-sixties. The mono mixes were the ones sweated over, and the stereo mixes were (as I said) more or less afterthoughts until _Revolver_ or SPLHCB_ or so. Anyone interested in all of this really needs to own a copy of Mark Lewisohn's book documenting *every* Abbey Road recording session - the Beatles bible, essentially. Great tricks to steal if you're a recording musician as well... - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::"In two thousand years, they'll still be looking for Elvis - :: this is nothing new," said the priest. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:48:41 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: eminem My last word on this terribly beaten and moribund horse (the more it struggles, the more it's tangled): I might be able to overlook Eminem being a supreme dick if I liked his music. I don't, so... Also, the fact that his being a supreme dick is a *key part of his image as an artist* irks me (although again, see first point). I'm not starting any bonfires or petitions - just stating my piece (at length). - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::This is America. People do whatever the fuck they feel like doing.... ::As a result, this country has one of the worst economies in the world. __Neal Stephenson, SNOW CRASH__ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #274 *******************************