From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #267 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, August 31 2000 Volume 03 : Number 267 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: List Netiquitte [Carl Archer ] Immersion [Wireviews ] RE: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV [Stephen Harper ] Re: List Netiquitte ["stephenjohnstone" ] Re: The revolution began! ["Stephen Jackson" ] ENOUGH! [Miles Goosens ] Re: ENOUGH! ["tube disaster" ] Re: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV ["Syarzhuk Kazachenka" ] Re: politics v. art (was:Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV) ["tube disaster" ] Re: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV [george.m.hook@ac.com] The End of the Ideal Copy List? ["wiremailorder.com" Subject: Re: List Netiquitte Love that word! And to think I was wondering why Dragon Naturally Speaking ships in American English and UK English versions. very off topic, Carl > From: "lucifersam" > Reply-To: "lucifersam" > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:24:05 +0100 > To: "Katherine Pouliot" , > Subject: Re: List Netiquitte > > Blimey.......;-) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 05:42:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: Immersion Hi all, If anyone has a report/images (or would care to write one) of the Immersion gig in NYC, could they please email it to me so I can include it in an upcoming Wireviews update? Cheers, Craig. PS: regarding the rather silly 'noise' debate that seems to be raging: the responses to the 'noise' post have encouraged about ten times as much static as would have originally been there. C'mon everyone: play nicely. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 06:15:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: RE: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV Ray, Thanks for this. I guess I can be a little over-senstitive too! I do understand the cross-posting issue, but also feel that the original message was well-intentioned. Best wishes, Stephen - --- "Ciscon, Ray" wrote: > Stephen, > > Sorry if my response turned you off. I did not > mean to sound bureaucratic, I > just wanted to keep the noise level on this > list down. > > I myself have been guilty of raising the noise > level on this list in the > past, there have been numerous times when my > knee has jerked so hard that > I've bruised it - but I've held my tongue > because I want to hear about Wire > and music related things. Maybe I'm just a > little sensitive in my attempts > to keep that noise level down. > > In retrospect, the reason her message ticked me > off so badly in the first > place is that it wasn't very clear, and she had > cross posted, which is a > major no-no in newsgroups and mailing lists. > > This mailing list doesn't have a hard-core > majordomo or police officer, > which is good. When someone goes off the > reservation, someone will let them > know. I say this as someone who's gone off the > reservation and been gently, > but firmly nudged back by fellow > friends/list-members. > > I hope that clears things up... > > Ray (Go Ralph Nader! I own Cisco stock as > well!) Ciscon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Harper > [mailto:stephen_harper@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 9:08 AM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: RE: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV > > Ray, > > Why the bureaucratic tone? It's pretty clear > from > the recent spate of "Marxist" messages that a > number of listers (myself included) would be > interested in Anna's links, so let's all calm > down a little. This list exists for the > discussion not solely of Wire, but also of > lister's related interests. > > Stephen > > --- "Ciscon, Ray" wrote: > > Ms. Ravegum/cheesewhizz, > > > > Blanket emails of this type to mailing lists > is > > a flame-able offence. > > > > Please keep these emails to appropriate > mailing > > lists, and don't send them > > to any music related list you think of. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Ray > > ===== > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from > anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:17:56 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: ahhh kumbaya, kumbaya... ah, don't we all feel better now? '-) kath - ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Harper To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 9:15 AM Subject: RE: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV > Ray, > > Thanks for this. I guess I can be a little > over-senstitive too! I do understand the > cross-posting issue, but also feel that the > original message was well-intentioned. > > Best wishes, > Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:19:06 +0100 From: "stephenjohnstone" Subject: Re: List Netiquitte Regarding the polititical posts etc. I personally don't mind them; my wee fingers can delete them quicker than they can be sent. Steve PS I heard today that the Wombles are to cut a new track, can't wait.......my arse!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:21:12 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: The revolution began! Don't bring reminders: music and politics don't mix. 'God Save The Queen' by the Sex Pistols, which refered to 'the fascist regime', was censored from chart displays in UK record shops and gerrymandered out of the No 1 spot due to certain political expedients. It was the jolly old queens' silver jubilee you see, and the country had to be seen to to be united in celebrating the dear parasite, don't you know? Their earlier single 'Anarchy in the UK' didn't seem to keep politics out of the music - if you could call such an ill mannered uncouth racket music - bah! :) That band Wire had a few songs which mixed them up a bit, sometimes subtley but early on more like a sledgehammer - how can anyone listen to the first couple of songs on Pink Flag and not hear political connections? Then there's Small Black Reptile, Silk Skin Paws, Kidney Bingos, The First Letter/Vien (Colin's 'Are you in guns?' cultured party question is hilarious, that old black humour), many of the songs on Manscape and The First Letter, Over Theirs (even the title gives that one away), Mercy, Ambitious and probably others which all have at least a line (usually wriiten by Lewis) which refers to some political situation. US fans especially might not spot some of these since Mr Lewis mostly comments on European affairs and he does enjoy his metaphors. For instance 'The Blue Queen' in 'the Queen of Ur' refers to the blight upon the eighties more commonly known as Margaret Thatcher, and 'Half track associations appear on parade' from 'Cheeking Tongues' apparently refers to the rise of the right wing in Britain, and its clear from his approach that Lewis is not fond of right wing politics. Bruce Gilbert describes 'It's a Boy' as a vaguely feminist piece. Do feminism and politics mix and if so, what right had Mr Gilbert to pour feminism into the Wire mix? Colin Newman described 'Life in the Manscape' as his final word on 'the Eastern Europe situation.' Was the Berlin Wall a political monument? Surely Colin should know his place as a lowly avant-pop musician and not have the audacity to comment on things best left to our noble and trusted politicians? Graham Lewis on 'Over Theirs': "Its pre-Perestroika, a cold war song, in the way the US deals with the Soviets. Still holds true in the way people view other countries and cultures." Graham Lewis on 'Silk Skin Paws': "It came out of a period when I was writing things, when it began to be called 'Thatcher's Britain' and peculiar things started to happen. The fabric of society and the people who had supported Thatcher, small middle-management businessmen, they had started to have problems. There were people commiting suicide and killing their families. I'd started writing the piece when we were in Belgium, seeing very ancient faces, and having this feeling that things were returning to a mediaeval world, where the rich have their castles and their security guards, and everybody else is a peasant." Graham Lewis said of 'In Vivo': "It's the preconceptions you have of knowledge and what's handed down to you that you accept as being knowledge. Until you find something else that makes you realise that in fact you're not buying the truth at all. For instance, when it turned out Ronald Reagan's version of government was in fact more divined by Nancy's interest in astrology than using the vast information and intelligence network that he had." Well that Lewis would be the first up against the wall if the fascists stealthily filled the Commons if he hadn't moved to Sweden! No, music and politics should never mix Maybe someone should tell Wire? Graeme BTW the quotes above were all lifted from Kevin Eden's Wire book, and I believe WMO has the very last few copies if you want one. ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:28:49 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Cocteau Inf. from 4AD. - ---------------------- Forwarded by Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS on 30/08/2000 18:28 --------------------------- fourad@almaroad.co.uk on 30/08/2000 18:19:21 Please respond to fourad@almaroad.co.uk To: Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS cc: Subject: 4AD Update Cocteau Twins "Stars And Topsoil" (CAD 2K19) Subtitled "A Collection (1982 - 1990)", "Stars And Topsoil" does exactly what it says on the tin, bringing together 18 of the finest moments from the Cocteau Twins' 4AD years and collecting them on one CD. It's released on October 16th in Europe - there are no plans for a domestic American release at the moment. The tracklisting is : 1. Blind Dumb Deaf 2. Sugar Hiccup 3. My Love Paramour 4. Pearly-Dewdrops' Drops 5. Lorelei 6. Pandora 7. Aikea-Guinea 8. Pink Orange Red 9. Pale Clouded White 10. Lazy Calm 11. The Thinner The Air 12. Orange Appled 13. Cico Buff 14. Carolyn's Fingers 15. Fifty-fifty Clown 16. Iceblink Luck 17. Heaven Or Las Vegas 18. Watchlar The Information in this communication is confidential and may be privileged and should be treated by the recipient accordingly. If you are not the intended recipient please notify me immediately. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose its contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:24:50 CDT From: "Laurel G" Subject: Re: Godspeed You Mount Hanley >From: Graeme Rowland >>New on my stereo this week (like you really needed to >know) > >Shellac - 1000 Hurts (they'll never top Action Park >but the kings of math rock have a mess of zeros behind >them, a Slint homage and a prayer for painful death - >vinyl has free Cd included so you can hear just how >Albini's guitar sound is totally tonally castrated by >digital mastering) > No, I didn't need to know that - since I don't have it and I lent my Terraform to a friend several months ago and haven't gotten it back yet - plus, he's got my Rapeman as well - he'll not get my Big Black though - I'm on to him now - thanks for reminding me I thought I might be able to catch them this October - I was hoping so - I've missed the last couple times they played here - not sure I'll be in town this time, again - thanks a heap for bringing them up - just keep rubbing it in, why dontcha? :-) Laurel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:42:02 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: The revolution began! Nice post....An interesting read. >The First Letter, Over Theirs (even the title gives >that one away), Mercy, Ambitious and probably others >which all have at least a line (usually wriiten by >Lewis) which refers to some political situation. Hmmm. Remind me of such a line in Mercy..... >Colin Newman described 'Life in the Manscape' as his >final word on 'the Eastern Europe situation.' And, of course, the spendid 'Stampede' which in part documents the fall of the Berlin wall.... I like my music political, both with a large P and a small p..... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ They use the head and not the fist. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 15:13:27 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: ENOUGH! OK, folks, as my friend Tim Pintsch always says during games of CIVILIZATION II when his cities are in a state of Civil Unrest, "Time to put the boot down." As far as I'm concerned, this is the LAST posting on "Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV" *or* "List Netiquette," unless those turn into names of Wire side projects. To wit: dMc said: >A private plea - I do not mind political content, but would personally >prefer extended non-musical discussions taken offlist. >I personally tend to get annoyed with politicians in general, but recognize >that there is a CONSIDERABLE diversity on this list >(part of the appeal) Which pretty much sums up my position on this latest tempest in a teapot. The list rules say that offtopic postings are allowed as long as the discussions find their way back to Wire. This one has strayed very, very far. As far as I'm concerned, there's plenty of misbehavior afoot. Ray was right when he said that crossposting was not good netiquette, nor was Anna's sending it to us with the imperative "please act on this." I for one don't enjoy being commanded to do something out of the blue, and I think the message would have been less objectionable if it had been proceeded by some sort of "if you're interested in US politics, you might want to consider this..." sort of introduction. Folks would have been inclined to respond off-list, or ignore -- in other words doing as they saw fit, and gone on their merry ways. Instead, folks felt compelled to respond here. Complicating matters was the tone taken afterwards. Ray (or anyone else) should have taken his concerns to me first, rather than pummelling Ms. Ravegum on-list. Ray may have said "Blanket emails of this type to mailing lists is a flame-able offence," but flaming *is* expressly prohibited by the rules of this list, and shan't be tolerated again. And Ray's use of the "reply-to-all" button, whether intended or not, wasn't such a schnell idea either. To the list's credit, most of the subsequent discussion, including Ray's later follow-up, took a more genial tone, which yours truly at least greatly appreciated. But let's not be doing this all over again in a couple of months, shall we? Sadly, the thing that's aggravated me most of all with this thread, even more than the loss of decorum, is seeing everybody quote the WHOLE DAMN POST over and over and over. This is a problem that I've admonished listmembers about more than once over the 2 1/2 years we've been up and running, but has been quite egregious during this little tift. Ray, Catherine, Anna again, and Alex have all sent the ENTIRE THING back to us (as Tim Robinson pointed out), and lucifersam has quoted vast stretches of text only to add single-line comments like "Blimey." Of all the mailing lists I've been on -- about ten or so currently, and I'm sure upwards of thirty during my six years on the Internet -- this one is the absolute worst about quoting. If the original message is upwards of a couple of brief paragraphs, please pleeeease PLEASE quote only the relevant parts, not the entire thing. Quoting is good in general, providing needed context to e-mail discussions. But it's JUDICIOUS quoting we're after, not wholesale duplication of the same thing. Digest #265 was practically Anna's original message over and over and over, for gosh sakes. And if you are thinking about sending a one-line reply to the list... DON'T. I enjoyed the comic relief from Stephen Graziano and Carl Archer as much as anything that's been said recently! And they somehow managed not to quote the entire thread back at us, too. :-) Now please go back to talking about Wire. Or the Buzzcocks. Or something else. I'll even suggest a topic, one I brought up in the early <50 member days of the list: Did 2 Live Crew steal the riff for "Me So Horny" from "Cheeking Tongues"? Responses should quote only the above paragraph, or risk excommunication. :-) later, listowner Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:27:35 -0500 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: ENOUGH! >dMc said: > >A private plea - I do not mind political content, but would personally > >prefer extended non-musical discussions taken offlist. > >I personally tend to get annoyed with politicians in general, but recognize > >that there is a CONSIDERABLE diversity on this list > >(part of the appeal) > >Which pretty much sums up my position on this latest tempest in a >teapot. The list rules say that offtopic postings are allowed as long as >the discussions find their way back to Wire. This one has strayed very, >very far. > >As far as I'm concerned, there's plenty of misbehavior afoot. Ray was >right when he said that crossposting was not good netiquette, nor was >Anna's sending it to us with the imperative "please act on this My god, you should've seen the fit I threw on the Big Takeover list last week because some callow youth went so far as to call some fanzine that I'd mentioned never having bothered checking into (Puncture) "required reading" ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:24:33 EDT From: "Syarzhuk Kazachenka" Subject: Re: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV >I'm sure that if it were Wire or The Fall instead of Michael Moore >and Rage Against the Machine creating the music video in direct >opposition to a political movement, that not one on this list would >squeal and howl Can I say this is highly unlikely? Can I say Wire would never go for a cheap appeal to the current events? Can I say Wire is an ART band, not a political band? Can I say we probably wouldn't remember Wire now if they emerged in 1970s as a political band? "Music video in direct opposition to a political movement" - what a novelty! Gosh, so many Dead Kennedys' songs require humongous explanations you almost cannot understand what they are about (how about the line "Twinkies are my best friends"?) Syarzhuk Be healthy, stay wealthy... Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:43:52 CDT From: "Laurel G" Subject: Re: ENOUGH! Miles, I want you to know - I wrote a thing about a parallel situation on another list earlier today - it hasn't shown up yet that I can see - I wanted you to know that in case it does show up later - I didn't willfully go against your wishes in bringing up the subject - not this time anyway *L - it just happens it didn't appear before your post Ok, Wire related - I'm listening to Coatings - and in front of me on the desk is Whore, a Ronnie and Clyde promo thingy, and two other Swim promo disk thingys - there, it's true - I may eat, breath, drink and whatever else Buzzcocks - but Wire is like the Jello in my life - there's always room for it after the main course you were looking for something else for people to flame about, weren't you? :-) Laurel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 20:41:58 -0500 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: politics v. art (was:Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV) >>I'm sure that if it were Wire or The Fall instead of Michael Moore >>and Rage Against the Machine creating the music video in direct >>opposition to a political movement, that not one on this list would >>squeal and howl >Can I say this is highly unlikely? >Can I say Wire would never go for a cheap appeal to the current events? >Can I say Wire is an ART band, not a political band? >Can I say we probably wouldn't remember Wire now if they emerged in 1970s as >a political band? True enough ... you can't find a Clash CD these days for love nor money, can you? Dan >"Music video in direct opposition to a political movement" - what a novelty! >Gosh, so many Dead Kennedys' songs require humongous explanations you almost >cannot understand what they are about (how about the line "Twinkies are my >best friends"?) > >Syarzhuk > >Be healthy, stay wealthy... > >Visit Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net > > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >http://profiles.msn.com. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:51:15 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: Re: Action Alert: Ralph Rocks MTV I think Wire's political statements are more subtle and insidious than, say, Rage Against the Machine or U2 or even the Clash. To my ears, that's more effective. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:20:53 -0500 From: "wiremailorder.com" Subject: The End of the Ideal Copy List? Does anyone think this list has run its course? Perhaps it's that time...... charles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 23:59:57 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: The End of the Ideal Copy List? At 11:20 PM 08/30/2000 -0500, wiremailorder.com wrote: >Does anyone think this list has run its course? Perhaps it's that time...... Euthanasia wasn't on my agenda. The list is certainly more lively than ever, even if the noise eclipses the signal from time to time. Of course, having the list itself as a topic of discussion might well be the harbinger of doom, eh? :-) later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 00:16:57 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: Re: The End of the Ideal Copy List? I think we are just bored. It is post-reunion stress syndrome. And, it's a political season. Where are those Albini sessions when we need them? When's the new Wire album coming out? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:39:00 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: The End of the Ideal Copy List? In a message dated 8/31/0 1:33:55 AM, george.m.hook@ac.com writes: >It is post-reunion stress syndrome. hehehe sorry for the near one-line response, but the above post arrived in my mail just after i sent in mine! did i do okay at stretching it to two lines? - -paul ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #267 *******************************