From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #247 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, August 11 2000 Volume 03 : Number 247 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) ["giluz" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #246 [flaherty michael w ] RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffre] Re: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffre] Stock, Hausen & Walkman [=?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= ] Re: Stock, Hausen & Walkman [Katherine Pouliot ] The First Record [Mark Short ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:45:25 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > The problem is that western musicology developed in response to, as a mode > of analysis of, the western art music tradition (WAMI - what most people > call "classical"). And so, of course other musics inevitably fall short, > since their standards aren't those of WAMI: development, structural > harmony, etc. etc. > > But popular music obviously quite complex, just in rather different ways. > (I'm aware neither Stephen nor Giluz are saying otherwise...) I can't > recall the citation, but one example is brought out in an essay Andrew > Chester (?) wrote in the early '70s (?) on The Band. He brings up what he > calls "intensional development" (that's not a misspelling): subtle > variations within the rhythm, of tone & timbre, etc., that make all the > differnce between, say, an utterly lifeless performance and one that > rocks. (Try getting yr typical classical musicians to do a James Brown > number right!) > > Then again, the whole argument's sort of weighted in advance toward the > traditionalists' side: who says "complexity" is even a virtue? It can be, > sure - but is it always? I don't think many people here would say so - > early Wire works in part by rigorous subtraction, where nothing is left > that's not utterly necessary. > > One could as well argue that it's much much harder to be persuasively > simple: since the music has fewer elements, each element has to bear more > weight. The more complex the music, the more any given moment can be slack > & carried by the rest. (Muff one 32d note among 2,000, who'll notice? But > if Moe Tucker misses one drumbeat?) > > --Jeff > Absolutely right: Rock music's complexity is rhythmic while WAMI's complexity is melodic. Lots of critics and rock musicians made the mistake of relying too much on WAMI's standards (progressive rock is the major example). It wasn't till the punk era when rock stopped being apologetic about its (WAMI-style) complexity. Electronics finished the task. Music now is more rhythm oriented than it ever was. Problem actually started when rock tried to distinguish itself from other brands of popular music. Rock musicians and critics wanted to prove that unlike those other brands, rock music was a true artform, despite its being made in a commercial industry. The only musical criteria they could apply in those days was WAMI. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:32:22 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > Then again, the whole argument's sort of weighted in advance toward the > > traditionalists' side: who says "complexity" is even a virtue? > It can be, > > sure - but is it always? I don't think many people here would say so - > > early Wire works in part by rigorous subtraction, where nothing is left > > that's not utterly necessary. > > Minimalism does not necessarily equal simplicity. Complexity is not necessarily a virtue, but one has to first define what complexity means. I would define Wire as an experimental band - the concept of a 1 minute punk song introduced in Pink Flag, for example, is complex, to my view. I could give other examples from other albums, but only from this example I'd define my concept of complexity as a contextualised one, and not necessarily based on musicology (even though it does come into it, among other things). One has to take place the conventions practiced in the field and compare them to the item being analysed - Wire treated punk as a form, not as an ideology, and the way they played with it and twisted it is what makes them so interesting. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 07:43:36 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) I would definitely vote to classify Wire as Experimental Rock. I'd put Talking Heads and The Residents in the same category, but I'm not sure who else. To me the boundaries blur between Art Rock, Experimental Rock, and Progressive Rock. - -Carl > From: "giluz" > Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:32:22 +0200 > To: "IdealCopy" > Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > Minimalism does not necessarily equal simplicity. Complexity is not > necessarily a virtue, but one has to first define what complexity means. I > would define Wire as an experimental band - the concept of a 1 minute punk > song introduced in Pink Flag, for example, is complex, to my view. I could > give other examples from other albums, but only from this example I'd define > my concept of complexity as a contextualised one, and not necessarily based > on musicology (even though it does come into it, among other things). One > has to take place the conventions practiced in the field and compare them to > the item being analysed - Wire treated punk as a form, not as an ideology, > and the way they played with it and twisted it is what makes them so > interesting. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:53:28 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) Very well spoken, and I completely agree, but you have to look for the stuff somewhere in the stores... One store that I go to has at least 6 different metal categories, about 8 electronic categories, and 3-5 punk categories. It's a real mess with some bands. I was trying to find Treponem Pal CDs and they were in 3 separate sections of the store! - -Carl > From: "giluz" > Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:20:38 +0200 > To: "IdealCopy" , "Carl Archer" > Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > Boundaries always blur because the whole classification thing is artificial. > Especially when it comes to bands like Wire that don't conform to any single > classification genre. > giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:32:51 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists & classification methods (was Ms. ciccone) Why not make a new, simpler classification system: First of all, divide everything into mainstream and off-mainstream, and then divide into subgenres. This kind of method will have to be dynamic, cause today's off will be tomorrow's main, in lots of cases, but it is something that can also work relatively within the subgenres themselves: An off-mainstream subgenre will include in itself a mainstream and off-mainstream divide, which will include other subgenres, that will include the off/main divide, etc... giluz > > Very well spoken, and I completely agree, but you have to look > for the stuff > somewhere in the stores... One store that I go to has at least 6 > different > metal categories, about 8 electronic categories, and 3-5 punk categories. > It's a real mess with some bands. I was trying to find Treponem > Pal CDs and > they were in 3 separate sections of the store! > -Carl > > > From: "giluz" > > Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:20:38 +0200 > > To: "IdealCopy" , "Carl Archer" > > Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > > > Boundaries always blur because the whole classification thing > is artificial. > > Especially when it comes to bands like Wire that don't conform > to any single > > classification genre. > > giluz > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:20:38 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > I would definitely vote to classify Wire as Experimental Rock. I'd put > Talking Heads and The Residents in the same category, but I'm not sure who > else. To me the boundaries blur between Art Rock, Experimental Rock, and > Progressive Rock. > > -Carl > Boundaries always blur because the whole classification thing is artificial. Especially when it comes to bands like Wire that don't conform to any single classification genre. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:04:20 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) I would add...earlyRoxy Music, Add (n) to X, Can, Faust,Bowie (76-79) and .....Um........I'll think about it...... > I would definitely vote to classify Wire as Experimental Rock. I'd put > Talking Heads and The Residents in the same category, but I'm not sure who > else. To me the boundaries blur between Art Rock, Experimental Rock, and > Progressive Rock. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:59:39 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: Damage Manual Does anyone have any comment on DM's ep? giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:01:24 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #246 > From: "giluz" > Subject: RE: Re[6]: velvets & John Cale > A few soundtracks, Quite a few. At least one a year. a very very bad songs album called "Walking on Locusts", > which, I'm ashamed to admit, reminded me of Phil Collins, No argument there. an OK but not too > exciting live album called "Fragments of a Rainy Season" (also available on > video), Just for the record, this album is almost universally loved by Cale people (as in those of us who put him in our top 5). > on. My overall feelings about Cale was that he finally got old - much more > relaxed, concentrates more on his classical roots, and less interesting. Ouch. Well, better classical than crap. I think he's aging as gracefully as any "rock" person of his generation. > Now, don't give me that 'better than Britney' slogan - we've done that Agreed. I find his music continues to be interesting and often brilliant, period. > i've had a bash at getting this [ad ovo remix] and failed totally. anyone got any idea where one might be available? p Watch ebay. I got a copy for under 10 dollars ... this way a while back, though. It is certainly out of print, so used sources are your only hope. > From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com > Subject: Re[2]: toyah > now i know we have some closet king crimson fans in here somewhere. what on earth was that "fripp fripp" thing she did with robert f like? i gave it a wide berth ; was it the usual toyah garbage? p I'm not in the closet regarding being a Crimson fan, but I'll admit that "Sunday All Over the World" is not my favorite album. It sounds more like Fripp than Wilcox (his guitar is pretty "out front"), but it's a bit dull, I think ... not really her style. > From: "giluz" > Subject: RE: Re[2]: toyah > 2nd one was probably Toyah's 1st pre-teletubbies project - Fripp doing > frippetronics on one side and Crafty Guitarists on the other, accompanying > Toyah reading a story. The story was quite good, actually. It's an old story called "The Lady or the Tiger." My only problem w/ this release is that Toyah is in both speakers. I'd like to hear the guitar w/out the story, which is good but does not warrant as many playings as a Frippertronics solo. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:24:31 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > > Very well spoken, and I completely agree, but you have to look > for the stuff > somewhere in the stores... One store that I go to has at least 6 > different > metal categories, about 8 electronic categories, and 3-5 punk categories. > It's a real mess with some bands. I was trying to find Treponem > Pal CDs and > they were in 3 separate sections of the store! > -Carl > It's worse with electronics. By the time you finally understood what a genre's supposed to mean you find out there are tens of subgenres to the same one. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:23:52 -0400 (EDT) From: alan gray Subject: Re Damage Manual >>Does anyone have any comment on DM's ep? Can it/any of it be heard over the net? I used to have a lot of faith in Wobble (oi, wobble...NO!) So I will make efforts to see them live next time they play. Their site was in a state of flux last time I looked. Alan - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:04:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, giluz wrote: > > calls "intensional development" (that's not a misspelling): subtle > > variations within the rhythm, of tone & timbre, etc., that make all the > > differnce between, say, an utterly lifeless performance and one that > > rocks. (Try getting yr typical classical musicians to do a James Brown > > number right!) > > Absolutely right: Rock music's complexity is rhythmic while WAMI's > complexity is melodic. Lots of critics and rock musicians made the mistake > of relying too much on WAMI's standards (progressive rock is the major > example). It wasn't till the punk era when rock stopped being apologetic > about its (WAMI-style) complexity. Electronics finished the task. Music now > is more rhythm oriented than it ever was. And not only rhythm: tone & timbre as well (by tone I mean both musical and emotional). Brian Eno has an essay in the new 3-disc compilation of electronic music from the '40s through the '80s (highly recommended, btw) whre, among other things, he mentions that you can score a piece of music for a violin and feel fairly confident that what you hear in your head will be approximately what will be played. But score something for "electric guitar" or "synthesizer," and if you specify nothing else, there's such a huge range of sounds to be had from either instrument. Incidentally, this is why scores of popular music are generally worthless, even they're actually accurate in terms of notes played (this is rather rare). As for tone, my favorite little thought experiment here is: listen to the Beatles sing "Nowhere Man." What attitude does the singer seem to have toward the character? A certain sympathy, etc. Now imagine the Sex Pistols covering the song, w/Johnny Rotten's usual vocal. What attitude does the singer now seem to have toward the character? (same lyrics - dif. performance of music & vocals) - probably something like utter contempt, no? I think one thing that makes a good cover vs. a lame one is just that ability of the covering band to bring out nuances that were less present in the original; i.e., make you hear more out of the song than you would have from the original. > Problem actually started when rock tried to distinguish itself from other > brands of popular music. Rock musicians and critics wanted to prove that > unlike those other brands, rock music was a true artform, despite its being > made in a commercial industry. The only musical criteria they could apply in > those days was WAMI. That is a key distinction of rock: it's evolved entirely w/in the era of mass communication (post-radio, TV, etc.), and it's been essentially a recorded medium from the start. Even though early rockers certainly depended upon live performance, unlike earlier artists in other popular genres (country, blues, folk, jazz, etc.), they didn't first come to people's notice through records but through live performance. (This last point's a bit debatable, though...) Result is that folk, blues, etc. could point to a pre-existing condition - pre- entry into commercial arena - by which their "authenticity" could be measured. Rock'n'roll - and particularly rock, which I'd distinguish from r'n'r - post Beatles, basically - couldn't really do this. Of course, this also led to ridiculous condescension on the part of some critics and fans, condescension delivered in the form of praise of a musician's supposedly "natural" talent, untainted and untamed by the market - where you get attitudes like "don't you dare pretend to be able to say anything intelligent about your music" - as a musician I once interviewed described this sort of critic's attitude: "just play your guitar out in the cornfield and I'll tell people if you tap some primitive urge" (Scott Miller of the Loud Family). (Okay, I'm threatening to post an essay here - I'll stop now) - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::we make everything you need, and you need everything we make:: np: Robert Pollard with Doug Gillard _Speak Kindly of Your Volunteer Fire Department_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:16:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Carl Archer wrote: > Very well spoken, and I completely agree, but you have to look for the stuff > somewhere in the stores... One store that I go to has at least 6 different > metal categories, about 8 electronic categories, and 3-5 punk categories. > It's a real mess with some bands. I was trying to find Treponem Pal CDs and > they were in 3 separate sections of the store! I hate it when stores & such attempt to classify (video rental places too) - - probably because much of what I like falls between genres anyway. Just put it all in alphabetical order... - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::can you write underwater on liquid paper?:: __Zippy__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:28:37 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Graeme=20Rowland?= Subject: Stock, Hausen & Walkman Mark Bursa recently mentioned the first record he bought with his own money. I'd be interested to know what other Idealists got first - mine was the theme music to Dr Who! Alan Gray wanted Stock, Hausen & Walkman info and I am the man to ask since I have all their albums except the new one. Id recommend 'Hairballs', a hilarious mish-mash which originally came packaged in a nice fluffy mitten. It happens to include slightly reworked and retitled versions of their cuts from DEconstruct, so if you want to hear Steve Albini's guitar like you never heard it before, check it out! All their releases are on Matt Wand's Hot Air label and should be easily available via These in London or Pelicanneck in Manchester. If you like Hairballs you'll probably also like the live disc 'Stop!' Their first Cd release, 'Giving up with Stock, H & W' is a bit more primitive and is chock full of naggingly familiar samples. I was annoyed for days by bass lines I couldn't quite place which turned out to be from Can and Gang of 4. They've also nicked chunks of Nirvana, the fall and Alternative TV. Never spotted any Wire, but Matt Wand did play my favourite single 'A Question of Degree' in a DJ set a couple of years ago. More recently he waved an ear shaped piece of bubblegum at me and said, 'Eardrum Buzz.' Dan Weaver, who played on these first three CD's, has given me a couple of tracks to use on the Cd compilation which I'm going to put out with 'Cracked Machine' #2. He's recently been playing in a duo with Mild Man Jan called Mr B and Mr Q. Jan makes a box using welders and tools (lots of sparhs flying) from unlikely objects (best one was an old mixing desk) and Dan records him working and processes it all in his computer. They burn a unique CD of the performance, put it in the box and sell it to the highest bidder. They work really well in places where people aren't expecting it... Since he left the Wand & Sharpley duo have put out their answer to the dancefloor crazes sweeping the fields, 'Oh my bag!' and a couple of installments of easy listening butchery 'Organ Transplants 1 & 2' , not to mention the excellent 'Venetian Deer" 10" which I think has been rereleased as a CD with bonus cuts from out of print singlles. The recent stuff is in general more refined and not quite so laugh a minute (hardly Swans or Joy Division though!). Matt Wand plays out in Manchester fairly often, DJing or with other improvisers. He always does something different which is the whole point I suppose. One time he molested a plastic budgie in a cage and fed the noises into his computer which made some more noises. Lucky he didn't put that on a CD, or as we all know it wouldn't have been music! :) When you see the cover of 'Hairballs' you will know why I urge you to lock up your cats!!!! Fibreglass Messiah ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:48:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) Excerpts from mail: 10-Aug-100 Re: Popular Culture theoris.. by Jeffrey 2 Fs Jeffrey@csd > I hate it when stores & such attempt to classify (video rental places too) > - probably because much of what I like falls between genres anyway. > > Just put it all in alphabetical order... Exactly! That's how I have my CDs. Although admittedly the W section is disproportionately large. :) (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "I've been known to dabble." -007 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 19:36:03 -0500 From: Rob Warnock Subject: Re: Stock, Hausen & Walkman Graeme Rowland wrote: > > Mark Bursa recently mentioned the first record he > bought with his own money. I'd be interested to know > what other Idealists got first - mine was the theme > music to Dr Who! > That's actually a lot better than mine. (Of course this is coming from someone who owns about eight Doctor Who soundtrack CD's.) The first thing I ever bought was "Heartbeat It's a Lovebeat" by the DiFranco family. I don't remember exactly what year it came out. 72 or 73 I think. - -Rob- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:16:29 -0400 From: Katherine Pouliot Subject: Re: Stock, Hausen & Walkman I gotta check these dudes out! Music or not. hahha 'Lock up your cats', now isn't that a Wire reference??? From the 'Boiling Cat'? sorry! k - -- Katherine Pouliot kep99@hotmail.com > Since he left the Wand & Sharpley duo have put out > their answer to the dancefloor crazes sweeping the > fields, 'Oh my bag!' and a couple of installments of > easy listening butchery 'Organ Transplants 1 & 2' , > not to mention the excellent 'Venetian Deer" 10" which > I think has been rereleased as a CD with bonus cuts > from out of print singlles. The recent stuff is in > general more refined and not quite so laugh a minute > (hardly Swans or Joy Division though!). Matt Wand > plays out in Manchester fairly often, DJing or with > other improvisers. He always does something different > which is the whole point I suppose. One time he > molested a plastic budgie in a cage and fed the noises > into his computer which made some more noises. Lucky > he didn't put that on a CD, or as we all know it > wouldn't have been music! :) > > When you see the cover of 'Hairballs' you will know > why I urge you to lock up your cats!!!! > Fibreglass Messiah > > ____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk > or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:56:20 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: The First Record Graeme Rowland wrote: > > Mark Bursa recently mentioned the first record he > bought with his own money. I'd be interested to know > what other Idealists got first - mine was the theme > music to Dr Who! > The Beatles' 1962-1966 compilation, the red one with the Fabs leaning over the bannister in the EMI building. Bought it around 1974. The first "contemporary" record I bought was Sparks' "Kimono My House". ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #247 *******************************