From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #243 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, August 8 2000 Volume 03 : Number 243 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Ms. ciccone ["giluz" ] RE: Ms. ciccone ["giluz" ] velvets vh1 [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 ["giluz" ] Re: velvets vh1 ["stephen graziano" ] RE: velvets vh1 ["giluz" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3... [Alan Gray ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3... ["lucifersam" ] Re: velvets vh1 ["rabwin" ] Re: velvets vh1 [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: velvets vh1 ["lucifersam" ] RE: Ms. ciccone [Stephen Harper ] Re: velvets vh1 ["rabwin" ] Re: velvets vh1 [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: velvets vh1 ["stephen graziano" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3... [Katherine Pouliot ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 [Katherine Pouliot ] okay, Steve, here I am ["Anna Ravegum" ] RE: okay, Steve, here I am ["giluz" ] Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) ["giluz" ] RE: velvets vh1 ["giluz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:18:37 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Ms. ciccone > > Aren't you in Israel now? I live In Hamramck. I been on the list for a > while now,but mostly lurk at least compared to you. > What part of Detroit did you grow up in? Something probably went wrong with the reply thing, 'cause I've never set foot in the States in my life. Sorry. giluz > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:27:02 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Ms. ciccone > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > > There is a problem when you try to seperate this field from the field of > > neo-marxist cultural criticism, where it originated. I'd recommend > > publications by Chris Cutler (Henry Cow's and countless others' > drummer), > > Lawrence Grossberg, Simon Frith, Stuart Hall, Theodor Adorno > and a bunch of > > others I can't recollect right now as essential for anyone > interested in the > > theory behind popular culture / music. > > The ideas of Frith et al do not lie behind popular music (or any > other culture); > they are constructs laid on top of the culture's artefacts. Maybe some pop > practitioners use the theory to guide their practise, eg Green > Gartside, but > they are rare exceptions. I didn't mean behind as in the sense of based on. I just meant that they help to understand the various ways popular music has been developping throughout the years. I think all of the people I mentioned here offer interesting and quite reasonable theories concerning the history and development of popular music. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:03:45 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: velvets vh1 tonight 23.00 vh1 ; velvet underground live in europe. presumably film of their 88 (?) comeback tour. might be interesting? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:18:01 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Katherine Pouliot > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 3:43 AM > To: giluz; IdealCopy; dMc > Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 > > > Being the admitted Mac person that I am, the sound of the name Bill Gates > makes me cringe. I don't think that he and Madonna can be put on the same > parallel. Madonna doesn't force me to use crappy software because of her > business decisions. I'm not forced to buy her albums over other > albums. I > don't think she promises the bands she signs something different than what > they get - only because I've not heard anything to prove me > wrong. Record > companies in general make loads of money off their "artists" and > Madonna is > not in this business just to dye her hair every other week. > You're right there - the comparisons don't exactly fit. I think dMC meant that Madonna and Gates are alike as far as pioneering in their fields is concerned: Both didn't invent anything new, only copied (borrowed if you like) from others, had a good business sense and knew how to market themselves and their products. In this sense this comparison is not that far from the truth. > As far as the concept of sincerity is concerned--I don't know > that sincerity > has anything to do with changing your style of dress or music or any of > that. I change my wardrobe and my hair a lot and no one has ever told me > that I'm not sincere. I just get bored easily! I'm not sure I really > care about the sincerity of any artist or musician or actor, etc. > Politicians, yes, then I care--and that is almost a mute point. > > If we don't allow others to change their minds and experiment, that is a > direct reflection on the amount of room we give ourselves to change or > experience new and different things. When we expect people, whoever they > are, to stay the same (whether they're family, friends or musicians, etc.) > then we can count on being disappointed. Changing styles and experimenting are not the same - sincerity might not have been the right word to choose, maybe authenticity is better (on a 2nd thought maybe it's not). What I meant was that Madonna's changing career moves were more motivated by business considerations (i.e. money, fame, money, her critical status, more money) than by artistic ones. > > Wire has certainly changed their styles a lot since they first > started, both > in the way they look and in the way they play, I think. I think it's > interesting to be able to look at stuff they did in their beginning and > compare it to other time periods and recognize the differences, not > necessarily to say this is better than that and criticize, but to > acknowledge and check it out. And they're the perfect example for artistic motivated style changes. It's not change that I'm against, it's the type of change and the reasons behind it. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 11:13:31 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: velvets vh1 I just checked the cable tv listings, and looked all over the vh1.com web site and can find no mention of this show. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 18:40:08 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: velvets vh1 > tonight 23.00 vh1 ; velvet underground live in europe. presumably > film of their 88 (?) comeback tour. might be interesting? p From what I heard of this reunion tour, Lou Reed seemed to think that it was "Lou Reed with his old accompanying band the Velvet Underground", and this really pissed lots of people off (audience and band members, except for Reed, of course). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:07:26 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3... >>>>You're right there - the comparisons don't exactly fit. I think dMC meant >>that Madonna and Gates are alike as far as pioneering in their fields is >>concerned: Both didn't invent anything new, only copied (borrowed if you >>like) from others, had a good business sense and knew how to market >>themselves and their products. In this sense this comparison is not that far >>from the truth. I was just thinking that its a shame Bill Gates does't have to constantly re-invent himself in order to survive. I saw another snip of the Madonna vidoe at the weekend. She looks very golden in it. A little bit like the Oscar statuette. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:45:05 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3... I'd love to see Bill Gates in the JP Gaultier pointed Bra!!!!!!! > I was just thinking that its a shame Bill Gates does't have to constantly re-invent himself in order to > survive. > I saw another snip of the Madonna vidoe at the weekend. > She looks very golden in it. A little bit like the Oscar statuette. > > Alan > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 19:20:05 +0100 From: "rabwin" Subject: Re: velvets vh1 > I just checked the cable tv listings, and looked all over the vh1.com web > site and can find no mention of this show. > ////// mmm , i get sent this guide once a month from sky with all the listings , i was just quoting from that. as i said last week , alternative nation seems to have been bombed out too on mtv. seems like a cynical plan to make me waste a lot of video tape and de-subscribe from satellite tv. and i wonder what they'll fill up the space with? must be ten minutes since they showed robbie or madge...... p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:43:59 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: velvets vh1 In a message dated 08/07/00 10:10:22AM, you write: << tonight 23.00 vh1 ; velvet underground live in europe. presumably film of their 88 (?) comeback tour. might be interesting? p >> 92. I just checked VH1's listings on Sky digital and it's definitely on. A must for mullet-watchers everywhere! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:55:29 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: velvets vh1 10.56.......countdown to Mulletsty............... > In a message dated 08/07/00 10:10:22AM, you write: > > << tonight 23.00 vh1 ; velvet underground live in europe. presumably film of > their 88 (?) comeback tour. might be interesting? p >> > > 92. I just checked VH1's listings on Sky digital and it's definitely on. A > must for mullet-watchers everywhere! > > Mark > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:00:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: RE: Ms. ciccone - --- giluz wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > > > There is a problem when you try to seperate > this field from the field of > > > neo-marxist cultural criticism, where it > originated. I'd recommend > > > publications by Chris Cutler (Henry Cow's > and countless others' > > drummer), > > > Lawrence Grossberg, Simon Frith, Stuart > Hall, Theodor Adorno > > and a bunch of > > > others I can't recollect right now as > essential for anyone > > interested in the > > > theory behind popular culture / music. > > > > The ideas of Frith et al do not lie behind > popular music (or any > > other culture); > > they are constructs laid on top of the > culture's artefacts. Maybe some pop > > practitioners use the theory to guide their > practise, eg Green > > Gartside, but > > they are rare exceptions. > > I didn't mean behind as in the sense of based > on. I just meant that they > help to understand the various ways popular > music has been developping > throughout the years. I think all of the people > I mentioned here offer > interesting and quite reasonable theories > concerning the history and > development of popular music. > > giluz Quite so - especially when you consider the theories they're up against, such as Roger Scruton's absurd dismissals of popular music in books like "An Intelligent (sic) Person's Guide to Popular Culture". It's a culture war out there! Stephen ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 23:30:23 +0100 From: "rabwin" Subject: Re: velvets vh1 > I just checked the cable tv listings, and looked all over the vh1.com web > site and can find no mention of this show. //////well i sat up and its on as i write this , and very good it looks too. its actually 93 so my memory is clearly worse than usual. lots of film of guys talking about playing together for the first time in 20 odd years , now who does this remind me of....... apparently reed and cale were at each others throats well before the end of the reunion tour , so that was it for a velvets reunion i guess. of course sterling m being dead doesn't help much either. i kick myself for missing the wembley gig. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 20:10:20 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: velvets vh1 Paul, << /////well i sat up and its on as i write this , and very good it looks too. its actually 93 so my memory is clearly worse than usual. lots of film of guys talking about playing together for the first time in 20 odd years , now who does this remind me of....... apparently reed and cale were at each others throats well before the end of the reunion tour , so that was it for a velvets reunion i guess. of course sterling m being dead doesn't help much either. i kick myself for missing the wembley gig. >> Very good it was....despite the fact that they played a fucking Janet Jackson video in one of the many ad breaks just before the end. What are these people on???? So they're short of ads. Play a Lou Reed video or something more appropriate! I managed to get a ticket for the T&C gig on that tour, which was fantastic, despite Lou's rock star trip. Cale was sublime - especially where he sang (basically the Nico numbers) and it was astonishing to watch Sterling Morrison play. All up-strokes on the guitar, (rather like the way Mr Lewis plays the bass).....no wonder he's impossible to copy. Could have sworn it was 92 - must be getting mixed up with Television (at the same venue) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:41:51 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: velvets vh1 it's on in europe it's not on in america ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 22:56:04 -0400 From: Katherine Pouliot Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3... Now there's a concept! - -- Katherine Pouliot kep99@hotmail.com > From: Alan Gray > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 17:07:26 +-100 > To: "'idealcopy@smoe.org'" > Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3... > I was just thinking that its a shame Bill Gates does't have to constantly > re-invent himself in order to > survive. > I saw another snip of the Madonna vidoe at the weekend. > She looks very golden in it. A little bit like the Oscar statuette. > > Alan > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 23:01:58 -0400 From: Katherine Pouliot Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 - -- Katherine Pouliot kep99@hotmail.com > From: "giluz" > Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:18:01 +0200 > To: "IdealCopy" , "Katherine Pouliot" > Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org >> [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Katherine Pouliot >> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 3:43 AM >> To: giluz; IdealCopy; dMc >> Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #240 >> >> >> Being the admitted Mac person that I am, the sound of the name Bill Gates >> makes me cringe. I don't think that he and Madonna can be put on the same >> parallel. Madonna doesn't force me to use crappy software because of her >> business decisions. I'm not forced to buy her albums over other >> albums. I >> don't think she promises the bands she signs something different than what >> they get - only because I've not heard anything to prove me >> wrong. Record >> companies in general make loads of money off their "artists" and >> Madonna is >> not in this business just to dye her hair every other week. >> > > You're right there - the comparisons don't exactly fit. I think dMC meant > that Madonna and Gates are alike as far as pioneering in their fields is > concerned: Both didn't invent anything new, only copied (borrowed if you > like) from others, had a good business sense and knew how to market > themselves and their products. In this sense this comparison is not that far > from the truth. Yes, I agree. > >> As far as the concept of sincerity is concerned--I don't know >> that sincerity >> has anything to do with changing your style of dress or music or any of >> that. I change my wardrobe and my hair a lot and no one has ever told me >> that I'm not sincere. I just get bored easily! I'm not sure I really >> care about the sincerity of any artist or musician or actor, etc. >> Politicians, yes, then I care--and that is almost a mute point. >> >> If we don't allow others to change their minds and experiment, that is a >> direct reflection on the amount of room we give ourselves to change or >> experience new and different things. When we expect people, whoever they >> are, to stay the same (whether they're family, friends or musicians, etc) >> then we can count on being disappointed. > > Changing styles and experimenting are not the same - sincerity might not > have been the right word to choose, maybe authenticity is better (on a 2nd > thought maybe it's not). What I meant was that Madonna's changing career > moves were more motivated by business considerations (i.e. money, fame, > money, her critical status, more money) than by artistic ones. Sure, I can agree with that too. I can see and have heard all about how she gets "inspired" from copying others. I do know about that. She and Martha Stewart and Bill Gates can all have a big copycat party and laugh all the way to the bank. > >> >> Wire has certainly changed their styles a lot since they first >> started, both >> in the way they look and in the way they play, I think. I think it's >> interesting to be able to look at stuff they did in their beginning and >> compare it to other time periods and recognize the differences, not >> necessarily to say this is better than that and criticize, but to >> acknowledge and check it out. > > And they're the perfect example for artistic motivated style changes. It's > not change that I'm against, it's the type of change and the reasons behind > it. > > giluz > That makes sense. I see your point. I have always been one to stay out of "artistic" discussions, only because I have been critical of myself about how I am so UN "creative" or "artistic" throughout much of my life, so I sometimes feel weird about contributing to those discussions. k > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 0:13:4 -0400 From: "Anna Ravegum" Subject: okay, Steve, here I am Hello all. Apparently as a new list member some sort of self-intro is wanted. I have been a Wire fan since PINK FLAG came out, but didn't experience them live until this past May. Worth the 20 yr. wait - highlight of the night was accidentally locking eyes with Colin Newman a couple of times. Currently listening to the recent live CD. Since the D.C. show, my favourite song is "Advantage in Height". Fave album wil always be 154. If any of you on this list have not seen the compilation video now being made available on the Pink flag site - it is a rite of passage. Order yourself a copy - you will not be disappointed. Other musical tastes run to PhilipGlassKrillSlappHappyStereolabPrimalScreamThrobbingGristlePsychicTVCoil FlipperBadBrainsDonByronSunRa.... Best, Anna aka Miss Anthropy (old dj name) - --- Anna Ravegum - --- cheesewhizz@earthlink.net - --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:35:00 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: okay, Steve, here I am > any of you on this list have not seen the compilation video now being made > available on the Pink flag site - it is a rite of passage. Order > yourself a > copy - you will not be disappointed. Can you elaborate on that? I've been to the site and it's not there. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:46:00 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: Popular Culture theorists (was Ms. ciccone) > > I didn't mean behind as in the sense of based > > on. I just meant that they > > help to understand the various ways popular > > music has been developping > > throughout the years. I think all of the people > > I mentioned here offer > > interesting and quite reasonable theories > > concerning the history and > > development of popular music. > > > > giluz > > Quite so - especially when you consider the > theories they're up against, such as Roger > Scruton's absurd dismissals of popular music in > books like "An Intelligent (sic) Person's Guide > to Popular Culture". It's a culture war out > there! > > Stephen > Not exactly, cause this is exactly the kind of work that made lots of popular culture studies be so apologetic. Unable to refute popular music's simplicity in musicological terms, theorists claimed its merits lie in the social aspect of it, i.e.: the 60's were a great time which changed the structure of society, music was a main factor of that movement, but it was crap cause it didn't correspond to the complex demands of western musicology. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:50:20 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: velvets vh1 > Cale was sublime - especially where he sang > (basically the Nico numbers) and it was astonishing to watch Sterling > Morrison play. All up-strokes on the guitar, (rather like the way > Mr Lewis > plays the bass).....no wonder he's impossible to copy. > Sterling and Tucker - great musicians, too underrated. Try to imagine the Velvets sound without them, then try to imagine rock without the Velvets' sound the way it was. It's a pity about Cale, though - his releases in the last 10 years weren't too good. The Nico ballet had some nice stuff in it, but it still wasn't interesting enough. giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #243 *******************************