From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #236 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, August 1 2000 Volume 03 : Number 236 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Thousand sale [Jason Borchers ] RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism [Stephen Harper ] Re[2]: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 [DMc ] Re[2]: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism ["giluz" ] Awesome Orson [Mark Short ] Re: Awesome Orson [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism ["giluz" ] Re: Awesome Orson [Mark Short ] Re: Thousand saleB [BillyD ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 [Carl Archer ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 [Katherine Pouliot ] Midnight Oil [Carl Archer ] Re: Midnight Oil [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: Thousand saleB [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] RE: Thousand saleB ["giluz" ] RE: Awesome Orson ["giluz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:42:53 -0700 From: Jason Borchers Subject: Thousand sale Has anybody else noticed the Thousand sale at WMO? All 5 discs for $25. - -- Jason Borchers jasonmb@calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:57:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Mark, As a neo-Marxist, I agree with you about communism (and Marxism) being based on positive principles. I don't understand, however, that Marxism is a kind of "utopianism". Go along to Highgate Cemetery and you'll hear Marx turning in his grave at this characterisation of his ideas! Marxism is a highly practical ideology based on observation (although I admit that class structures have altered a lot since the C19th). The demise of bureaucratic Marxist-Leninism in the east - and the near-invisibility of Marxism outside the academies - does not indicate the weakness of Marxism so much as the strength of capitalism. rgds, Stephen - --- "Ciscon, Ray" wrote: > Mark Bursa wrote: > > Ray, > > Socialism/communism is based on generally > positive principles, whereas > fascism is not. The fact that Communism as > PRACTICED by the likes of Stalin > > was as evil and corrupt as Nazism under Hitler > is not a reflection of the > original Marxist doctrines - rather an example > of a Tyrant abusing his > position to his own end. And proof that > ultimately Marxism, however utopian > in concept, was an unworkable concept in the > real world. > > Mark ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 15:16:16 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: re horrible nazi scumbags >i think certain people get a real frisson of excitement owning records by dodgy >old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p >>Presumably that explains why people still take an interest in that bittter old >>tosspot who used to be Morrissey! >>Tim Robinson Can someone explain this connection? >>>> i think there is a school of thought that mr morrissey is maybe a little prone to some right wing opinions......... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:42:34 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: Re,Horrible Nazi Scumbags >i think certain people get a real frisson of excitement owning records by dodgy >old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p >>Presumably that explains why people still take an interest in that bittter old >>tosspot who used to be Morrissey! >>Tim Robinson >>>Can someone explain this connection? >>>> i think there is a school of thought that mr morrissey is maybe a little prone to some right wing opinions......... Ok so I don't know the life and times of Morrisey, which is why I was trying to find out if there was any substance to this right wing connection. On the subject of keeping politics out of music, I've offered my view before. WHY? I do not think its possible to compartmentalise life in this way. You would have to outlaw expressionism. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:47:46 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism er , i guess this response covered old ground a bit ; i just installed a computer at home over the weekend (hence new address) and i missed some mails in the changeover. so now i can do things at home and not feel guilty about wasting company time. says he , currently hard at work........p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Author: MIME:rabwin@ic24.net at INTERNET Date: 31/07/00 13:35 there was a fascinating tv program on uk tv about 2 weeks ago , a guy hung out with a gang of ultra-nazi skins in order to write a book. 10 years later he's tracked them down and seen how their lives had changed. most had calmed down a bit and still held the beliefs but couldn't be bothered with the violence any more. but these were not exactly guys you'd want to hang around with......... the show featured a few bits of music on it , these guys all seemed to be listening to brain-dead oi stuff. one track they played was a version of the beasties "fight for your right" re-done as "fight for a white country" (bet they never asked for clearance on that...). i think the music taste of right-wing fanatics is probably about what it ever was.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:01:44 -0500 From: DMc Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------EDBEAAF02B161C0F5636A5BE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is that the line dividing the left and right hemispheres of my brain? I don't quite get this? David - eschewing politics altogether in this election year > There is a very clear dividing line between people, who are, > let's say, into Aerosmith and those who dig Wire. And that's only > scratching the surface. - --------------EDBEAAF02B161C0F5636A5BE Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="dmack2002.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for DMc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dmack2002.vcf" begin:vcard n:McKenzie;David x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:absolutely none adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:dmack2002@yahoo.com note;quoted-printable:People always ask me:=0D=0ADMC - What doews it mean?=0D=0AD's for never dirty=0D=0AMC for Mostly Clean fn:David McKenzie end:vcard - --------------EDBEAAF02B161C0F5636A5BE-- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:32:26 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism I think the differences between the major political parties are almost extinct. Which, in theory, should leave room for some more interesting developments. Instead, in my opinion, a general apathy/complacency prevails, which manifests itself in all areas of society, especially in the arts. Nik >>>> there was a piece in the observer yesterday making this sort of point , how ten or twenty years ago there was so much good music , a lot of which was a reaction to the state the country was in at the time. and now we get coldplay as the leading lights on the "alternative" scene , who are a sort of nothingness personified. much like most of our politicians.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:24:31 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism > As a neo-Marxist, I agree with you about > communism (and Marxism) being based on positive > principles. Since it is quite rare to find two neo-marxists that hold the same marxist view, I'm quite interested as to what kind of neo-marxist are you? I don't understand, however, that > Marxism is a kind of "utopianism". Go along to > Highgate Cemetery and you'll hear Marx turning in > his grave at this characterisation of his ideas! Marxism's utopianism means that in any marxist theory there is an ideal society which operates according to the theory's rules. So that even though marxist theories point out the various ways governments and institutions oppress people, they always suggest a utopian alternative. This is contradictory to capitalist thought which doesn't have a fixed solution. Instead it prefers to think of itself as progressive - change according to needs. Capitalism states that certain members of society must be sacrificed so that the rest could have a good life. This, according to capitalism, is the only realistic solution - the least worse choice. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:29:17 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: Awesome Orson paul.rabjohn@ssab.com wrote: > > I think the differences between the major political parties are almost extinct. Which, in theory, should leave room for some more interesting developments. Instead, in my opinion, a general apathy/complacency prevails, which manifests itself in all areas of society, especially in the arts. > > Nik > >>>> there was a piece in the observer yesterday making this sort of point , how ten or twenty years ago there was so much good music , a lot of which was a reaction to the state the country was in at the time. and now we get coldplay as the leading lights on the "alternative" scene , who are a sort of nothingness personified. much like most of our politicians.p As Orson Welles said (more or less), Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and democracy, but its only contribution to civilization has been the cuckoo-clock. Whereas Germany has kicked off two world wars, but given us Goethe and Beethoven. Orson may have changed his tune had he lived to see the Swiss bottle Oasis off-stage. A very real contribution to civilization. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:45:37 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: Awesome Orson Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and democracy, but its only contribution to civilization has been the cuckoo-clock. Whereas Germany has kicked off two world wars, but given us Goethe and Beethoven. Orson may have changed his tune had he lived to see the Swiss bottle Oasis off-stage. A very real contribution to civilization. >>>> the report on that gig i read didn't say exactly what liam said to them ; any ideas? sounds like one of the few recent oasis performances it might have been vaguely worth watching. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:50:56 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism > > > >You can't be an Israeli without having a strong view on politics. > Please go on. What part of the country do you live in? Are you involved > in the peace movement? Can your work colleagues relate to your views? I live in Tel-Aviv, have been going to various Peace Movement demonstrations and activites for the last 10 years or so, actually stopped doing so for the last couple of years. I'd rather not discuss politics at work - lots of the people I work with (including my bosses) are religious right-winged - I've got no time or energy to argue with them about things we'd never agree on. Israelis are not tolerant, they don't have the will, patience and openness to hear opinions which are contradictory to their own. As > someone who has not yet been to your country I am sure I can't even half > imagine the impact politics have on your everyday life. The impact of politics on everyday life is very big here, mainly because it affects almost everyone personally - most people served in the army and are still doing reserve service once or twice a year, so anything that happens is likely to directly affect someone that you know. Also, we don't have that stability caused by living in the same country for hundreds of years which Europeans have. Most people still maintain the feeling of being threatened by the outside world, because of Jewish history and the numerous wars we had in the 50 years that we existed. This is despite the fact that Israel is undoubtedly the strongest military and economic force in the area. As far as a lot > of EU countries go, I think the differences between the major political > parties are almost extinct. Actually, we're going through the same phase you have in lots of European countries, where the two big parties, the left and the right, are claiming to represent the centre of public opinion. The palestinian conflict being the centre of political discussions and debates, social and economic views are thrown aside, and the big parties are indistinguishable in that concern. As far as the conflict is concerned, there's not much difference either, but, of course, public declarations attempt to emphasize differences. On top of that, in the last 4 years we had a new election method, which gives more votes and power to the regional parties. This is a complete disaster, Israel being an immigration country already comprised of various ethnic-cultural groups. So the big parties are almost indistinct from another, while the small parties (which are not so small anymore) actually are the most powerful. Which, in theory, should leave room for some > more interesting developments. Instead, in my opinion, a general > apathy/complacency prevails, which manifests itself in all areas of > society, especially in the arts. You could say that left-winged Israeli's, especially from around the area of Tel-Aviv (and most of them are from that area) are more European-oriented while the right-winged are more middle-eastern. Apart from the actual political views this also pertains to cultural differences: liberalism vs. conservatism, secularism vs. religion, etc. right-winged are more organised, more ideological, while the left-winged have that post-modern apathy and pessimism you mentioned. I guess that about 55% of the population are right-winged. As for the arts, life here is so hectic & loud (not to mention the hot weather) that people don't want anything more than pure entertainment. Also there are hardly 6 million people living here, so there's not enough audience and/or money to finance off-mainstream acts. TV is crap, radio is crap, music's crap and the cinema as well. Some people are very talented but they either give in and do mainstream or get themselves proper jobs. As for myself, I plan to move to Europe during the next year, for an indefinite period of time. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 16:53:46 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: Re: Awesome Orson paul.rabjohn@ssab.com wrote: > > Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and > democracy, but its only contribution to civilization has been the cuckoo-clock. > Whereas Germany has kicked off two world wars, but given us Goethe and Beethoven. > > Orson may have changed his tune had he lived to see the Swiss bottle Oasis off-stage. A very real contribution to civilization. > > >>>> the report on that gig i read didn't say exactly what liam said to them ; any ideas? sounds like one of the few recent oasis performances it might have been vaguely worth watching. p Well, he was abusive to the audience, but I'm not sure if it was a reaction to being bottled, or whether the bottling was a reaction to the abuse. I like to think that the crowd had a collective road-to-Damascus experience, and realised they'd paid good money to watch a bunch of no-marks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:59:57 -0700 (PDT) From: BillyD Subject: Re: Thousand saleB Yeah, but is it worth $25? I bought one of the five and it didn't seem that winning. Noise on a cd isn't music. Cheers, Billy p.s. Anybody else bought that horrible/horribly overpriced It's All In The Brouchure? I'm glad I saved my plane fair. Wire just aren't happening anymore. I'll stick to the old stuff... - --- Jason Borchers wrote: > Has anybody else noticed the Thousand sale at WMO? > All 5 discs for $25. > > -- > Jason Borchers > jasonmb@calweb.com ===== . ./\/\/\. [ . . ] /\ -- -Get Well Sammy! (R)SOT Ltd. http://depechemode.acmecity.com/freestate/54 http://www.fortunecity.com/uproar/mental/111/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:27:50 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 Which Aerosmith? I like the herion-injected Aerosmith! The John Kolodner-Desmond Child era Aerosmith era makes me want to puke. I think the Aerosmith version of 'Come Together' is about as good as the original. - -Carl P.S. Has anybody noticed any similarity between Wire and Midnight Oil? > >> There is a very clear dividing line between people, who are, >> let's say, into Aerosmith and those who dig Wire. And that's only >> scratching the surface. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:49:42 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 >P.S. Has anybody noticed any similarity between Wire and Midnight Oil? > Not a lot. What similarities do you see? (^_^) - -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:56:17 -0400 From: Katherine Pouliot Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 I remember liking Aerosmith back in the late seventies - the drugged out era, and "Come Together" was definitely one of them. I used to get the lyrics wrong and make my parents laugh. There is definitely a "hometown pride" thing there, as they're from Boston, and I live near there, a lot of my family are from Massachusetts. I have respect for them, but I can't say that I like anything they've put out in the last umpteen years. Oh well. As far as Wire and Midnight Oil being similar, I am not sure about that. I don't see one, but I don't know that much about MO either. K - -- Katherine Pouliot kep99@hotmail.com > From: Carl Archer > Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:27:50 -0400 > To: DMc , > Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 > > Which Aerosmith? I like the herion-injected Aerosmith! The John > Kolodner-Desmond Child era Aerosmith era makes me want to puke. I think the > Aerosmith version of 'Come Together' is about as good as the original. > > -Carl > > P.S. Has anybody noticed any similarity between Wire and Midnight Oil? > >> >>> There is a very clear dividing line between people, who are, >>> let's say, into Aerosmith and those who dig Wire. And that's only >>> scratching the surface. >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:08:31 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Midnight Oil I think that 'Cheeking Tongues' reminds me of something off of MO's "Red Sails in the Sunset" album (I don't recall whether Ideal Copy came out first). Also, if you listen to 'Beds Are Burning', the horn refrain (Bum-Bum-Ba!) is pretty close to what happens in 'Mercy'. - -Carl > From: Katherine Pouliot > Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:56:17 -0400 > To: Carl Archer , Wire > Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 > > Oh well. As far as Wire and Midnight Oil being similar, I am not sure about > that. I don't see one, but I don't know that much about MO either. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:29:16 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: Midnight Oil >I think that 'Cheeking Tongues' reminds me of something off of MO's "Red >Sails in the Sunset" album (I don't recall whether Ideal Copy came out >first). Hmm - you'll have to provide the example. From what I can remember, not much on that album sounds like Wire, to me. >Also, if you listen to 'Beds Are Burning', the horn refrain >(Bum-Bum-Ba!) is pretty close to what happens in 'Mercy'. Yeah I noticed that. In fact, I freaked out the first time I heard Mercy, because, oddly enough, I'd heard Beds Are Burning first! (^_^) Still, it's a pretty common progression - it's quite possible that Midnight Oil stumbled across it by accident. (Unlike Elastica, for instance. (^_^)) Midnight Oil strikes me as a politically-aware hard rock band, with occasional prog-rock tendencies. (Listen to "Head Injuries" or their first album for example) They have an elaborate stage show, and a big, rock sound. Wire strikes me as a more cerebral exercise, with dreamscapes and slow repitition - more art-school than out-back. (^_^) Two different schools of musical thought in my opinion - not that there's anything wrong with that! (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:14:51 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: Thousand saleB i haven't checked wmo in a while, but i was going to inquire on the list about this $25 deal...so, what is it? In a message dated 7/31/00 6:08:32 PM, xj23@yahoo.com writes: << Yeah, but is it worth $25? I bought one of the five and it didn't seem that winning. Noise on a cd isn't music.>> i find bruce gilbert's in esse to be a very enjoyable listen, especially through headphones, as i had remarked in a recent post. to each his own, i guess. <> huh? i love the live material on this one! some of the sampler is good too. i think $10, as opposed to the $15 it cost, would have been a fair enough price, but... - -paul p.s. going to see einsturzende neubauten on wednesday! can't wait. haven't seen em since tabula rasa came out...not that they'll be playing noise though ;o) any other listers going to this show? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:51:43 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Thousand saleB > < overpriced It's All In The Brouchure? I'm glad I saved > my plane fair. > Wire just aren't happening anymore. I'll stick to the > old stuff... >> > > huh? i love the live material on this one! some of the sampler is > good too. i > think $10, as opposed to the $15 it cost, would have been a fair enough > price, but... > > -paul > AITB is a great live CD. I just played it the other day and it's definitely getting better from one time to another. As for the price - you have to remember this is not released via a record company, so that's why it's more expensive. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:52:33 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Awesome Orson > > Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and > democracy, but its only contribution to civilization has been the > cuckoo-clock. > Whereas Germany has kicked off two world wars, but given us > Goethe and Beethoven. > > Orson may have changed his tune had he lived to see the Swiss > bottle Oasis off-stage. A very real contribution to civilization. > > >>>> the report on that gig i read didn't say exactly what liam > said to them ; any ideas? sounds like one of the few recent oasis > performances it might have been vaguely worth watching. p > I always hated the Swiss, guess I was wrong... giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #236 *******************************