From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #235 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, July 31 2000 Volume 03 : Number 235 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: re horrible nazi scumbags ["giluz" ] RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism ["giluz" ] Re: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism ["rabwin" ] Re: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism [Nik ] RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: re horrible nazi scumbags > > I'd be interested to know - in an academic sense, > I stress - what neo-Nazis listen to these days, > as I'm writing a novel about racism in the UK. If > anyone has info about this stuff, could they mail > me? This will best be done off-list, so as not to > infect the normally civilised idealcopy list with > so much evil crap. > > Stephen That's really interesting, especially in view of electronics music. There are some theories in Humanities, based on Nietsche's articles on Wagner defining fascist music as a unified kinda thing which stimulates a considerable emotional response, while Marxist art is defined as directed to the intelligence, something which is anti-sentimental. This, of course, is bulshit as far as defining music as idelogy goes, but it does form a very intriguing axis between the emotional and the intellectual. Electronics music was considered as highly emotional and less intellectually so, especially in the mid 90's, because of it's musical simplicity ant the rhythmic and melodical repetitions it's based on. I'd be very interested to know what extreme ideological groups like neo-nazis think about it or about any other kinds of contemporary music. giluZ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:06:57 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism > I'm always struck by the paradoxical divisions between Left & Right in > Europe and the U.K.. Right-wing extremists, i.e. nazis, are universally > reviled (as they should be) because of the holocaust, etc. but Left-wing > extremists, i.e. communists, get generally neutral, or positive press even > though their regimes killed far more people in the 20th Century than those > on the right. Hitler + Mussolini + Tojo + Franco = 20 Million+ > killed. Lenin > + Stalin + Mao + Castro + Pol Pot = 100 Million+ killed. > > Simply another reason why I don't like to mix politics with my music. There are few points which should be clarified here: 1. Marxism is much more than politics now, and that's why it's taught at universities and colleges everywhere. Even the most extreme right-winged ideologists use marxist methodical tools when analysing a political situation, nowadays. The whole concept of ideology and the way it's used to influence public opinion is marxist thinking, so you don't have to be left-winged to use marxism. 2. Marxism's much more than what Marx and Engels wrote - Marxist theories have evolved and developed, especially during the 20th century, in response to the appearance, on the one hand, of the dictatorial left-winged regimes, and on the other hand, the western capitalist democracies. Some of these theories have gone way back from the classic definitions of marxism. 3. The impact of those theories on the Humanities sciences is huge, and that's why they get taught at colleges. These appear especially in the fields of art criticism and analysis and culture studies. 5. There is a biased opinion toward right-winged theorists as opposed to left-winged theorists in universities and colleges - you're right about that. I don't think there's a biased opinion when it comes to extreme political groups from both sides. I always felt communists were not regarded as better than Nazis (well, maybe a bit better, but not much so). 4. Stalin + Mao + Castro + Pol Pot - None of those were marxist, they just used marxism and twisted it to their needs. giluz, a left-wing extremist. > > Ray Ciscon > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:11:27 +0100 From: "rabwin" Subject: Re: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism there was a fascinating tv program on uk tv about 2 weeks ago , a guy hung out with a gang of ultra-nazi skins in order to write a book. 10 years later he's tracked them down and seen how their lives had changed. most had calmed down a bit and still held the beliefs but couldn't be bothered with the violence any more. but these were not exactly guys you'd want to hang around with......... the show featured a few bits of music on it , these guys all seemed to be listening to brain-dead oi stuff. one track they played was a version of the beasties "fight for your right" re-done as "fight for a white country" (bet they never asked for clearance on that...). i think the music taste of right-wing fanatics is probably about what it ever was.p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:56:49 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism In message , giluz writes >1. Marxism is much more than politics now, and that's why it's taught at >universities and colleges everywhere. Even the most extreme right-winged >ideologists use marxist methodical tools when analysing a political >situation, nowadays. The whole concept of ideology and the way it's used to >influence public opinion is marxist thinking, so you don't have to be >left-winged to use marxism. Very good point. Infiltrating institutions and especially the media comes to my mind as a prime example. No matter what the ideological leaning might be, it's a common practice among followers of the left as well as by those of the right (and, of course, to a lesser extent, and depending on the country, by people who call themselves Liberals, Greens, Liberal Democrats etc, and lets not forget about the religious fanatics). However, since the concept was voiced originally by Mao, the public may tend to associate it rather with communism in general, although the old-boy networks are, of course, exactly the same. > >2. Marxism's much more than what Marx and Engels wrote - Marxist theories >have evolved and developed, especially during the 20th century, in response >to the appearance, on the one hand, of the dictatorial left-winged regimes, >and on the other hand, the western capitalist democracies. Some of these >theories have gone way back from the classic definitions of marxism. Absolutely. But due to the formatting of the collective human hard drive, people tend to notice/remember only the most extreme forms of the spectrum. One example for what lies inbetween is the Hungarian form of a 'softer' communism, which, since it was never good for shocking headlines, is hardly mentioned at all. Or take Antonio Gramsci, an advocate of a more human brand of communism which he laid out in his 'prison letters', written during his incarceration under Mussolini. Not the stuff Hollywood blockbusters (and here we are talking politics big time) are made of. Or songs. I, for one, am still waiting for the Gramsci-remix of 'Dance the Mussolini';-) It all boils down to the appeal of strong images. With the added 'advantage' that people are being spoon-fed versions of ideologies via the media, and thus are spared the task of doing a bit of research for themselves. In the US, the standard bogeyman is still the died-in-the- wool-communist. In the UK, on the other hand, you can hardly turn on the TV without finding some kind of reference to a mean old nazi. The reasons are obvious - both countries are way past their political and economic prime, so they look to the former 'glory' of the past, conveniently forgetting about things like the Hitler-Chamberlain tea party or the Blunts and Philbys in the case of the UK. There's nothing like a war - or a football game - when it comes to giving people a sense of national identity. As far as Ray's statement of not wanting to mix music with politics goes, I think that you can't separate the one from the other. The music you listen to automatically points towards the social group you belong to and besides personal taste, elitism and snobbery do come into the equation. There is a very clear dividing line between people, who are, let's say, into Aerosmith and those who dig Wire. And that's only scratching the surface. >giluz, a left-wing extremist. You have ideals? I envy you ;-) Nik ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 16:10:16 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Or take Antonio Gramsci, an > advocate of a more human brand of communism which he laid out in his > 'prison letters', written during his incarceration under Mussolini. Not > the stuff Hollywood blockbusters (and here we are talking politics big > time) are made of. Or songs. I, for one, am still waiting for the > Gramsci-remix of 'Dance the Mussolini';-) Gramsci was one of the finest & smartest neo-marxists - it's a pity no-one's read him outside colleges. > >giluz, a left-wing extremist. > You have ideals? I envy you ;-) You can't be an Israeli without having a strong view on politics. Ideals? I guess I'm like everyone here - I've got ideals but I consider them pure fantasy, as far as reality goes. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:35:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: RE: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism On Sun, 30 Jul 2000, giluz wrote: [Ray:] > > on the right. Hitler + Mussolini + Tojo + Franco = 20 Million+ > > killed. Lenin > > + Stalin + Mao + Castro + Pol Pot = 100 Million+ killed. > > > > There are few points which should be clarified here: [thoughtful points deleted] Not to mention that it's grossly offensive to tote up deaths as if at a ballgame in order to claim who's "better" or "worse." *One* is too many. The point made earlier, whether oppression, brutality, or killing is *intrinsic* to an ideology, is what puts groups like the Nazis, KKK, etc. well outside the pale of ideology proper. If the ethnicities etc. those groups hated disappeared, the groups would have no reason to exist. Marxism, whether you agree with it or not, targets *ideas* not people or groups of people. Anything that claims to be Marxism (or any other ideology) and targets groups of people is an abomination and distortion of that ideology, or it was never properly an ideology in the first place. Jeff Ceci n'est pas une .sig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:53:02 +0100 From: Nik Subject: Re: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism In message , giluz writes >Gramsci was one of the finest & smartest neo-marxists - it's a pity no-one's >read him outside colleges. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? > >> >giluz, a left-wing extremist. >> You have ideals? I envy you ;-) > >You can't be an Israeli without having a strong view on politics. Please go on. What part of the country do you live in? Are you involved in the peace movement? Can your work colleagues relate to your views? As someone who has not yet been to your country I am sure I can't even half imagine the impact politics have on your everyday life. As far as a lot of EU countries go, I think the differences between the major political parties are almost extinct. Which, in theory, should leave room for some more interesting developments. Instead, in my opinion, a general apathy/complacency prevails, which manifests itself in all areas of society, especially in the arts. Nik ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #235 *******************************