From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #233 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, July 29 2000 Volume 03 : Number 233 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Horrible nazi scumbags [timrobinson@cwcom.net] Re: Horrible nazi scumbags [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] re horrible nazi scumbags [Alan Gray ] Re: re horrible nazi scumbags [Stephen Harper ] Re: re horrible nazi scumbags [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Horrible nazi scumbags [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Pillow & Prayers [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re 'orrible nazi scumbags [Alan Gray ] Re: Re 'orrible nazi scumbags [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] Re Orrible nazi scum [Alan Gray ] OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: Morrissey At Bat ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Recall: Morrissey At Bat ["Ciscon, Ray" ] FW: Morrissey At Bat ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: FW: Morrissey At Bat [MarkBursa@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 11:29:02 +0100 From: timrobinson@cwcom.net Subject: Horrible nazi scumbags Presumably that explains why people still take an interest in that bittter old tosspot who used to be Morrissey! On a slightly surreal note, BBC Radio 1 DJ Mark Radcliffe used to be the drummer in Skrewdriver! Thats absolutely true. Apparently it was before they became Nazis and all that. I think he got quite freaked out when they embarked on their, ah, 'new direction'. > >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:11:28 +0100 >From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com >Subject: Re[2]: Ebay was Re: What new Dome LP? > >i think certain people get a real frisson of excitement owning records by dodgy old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p > > >______________________________ Reply Separator ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:56:37 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: Horrible nazi scumbags Presumably that explains why people still take an interest in that bittter old tosspot who used to be Morrissey! oooh , you bitch. funny thing i read recently was that "william it was really nothing" was written after a little fling mozzer had with billie mackenzie of the associates. which is an , er , interesting combination. On a slightly surreal note, BBC Radio 1 DJ Mark Radcliffe used to be the drummer in Skrewdriver! Thats absolutely true. Apparently it was before they became Nazis and all that. I think he got quite freaked out when they embarked on their, ah, 'new direction'. i saw mark r talking about it sheepishly , but i think it was a brief liaison and skrewdriver were just another punk band at that point. skrewdriver to the shirehorses is a pretty varied cv i guess. a mate of mine was playing in a dodgy nottingham thrash band and he got invited to do a european tour with skrewdriver who were , for some strange reason , having a bit of trouble recruiting members. he wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole , but i remember him telling me the money was unbelievable , a few grand for a months work. which makes you think.p > >Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:11:28 +0100 >From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com >Subject: Re[2]: Ebay was Re: What new Dome LP? > >i think certain people get a real frisson of excitement owning records by dodgy old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p > > >______________________________ Reply Separator ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:07:26 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: re horrible nazi scumbags >i think certain people get a real frisson of excitement owning records by dodgy >old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p >>Presumably that explains why people still take an interest in that bittter old >>tosspot who used to be Morrissey! >>Tim Robinson Can someone explain this connection? Alan http://members.tripod.co.uk/agray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 04:57:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: Re: re horrible nazi scumbags You're absolutely right about the frisson - I saw a depressing documentary the other night about neo-Nazis; they were indeed spinning Screwdriver excitedly. Interestingly, anti-Nazism is something of a strand in EGL's work, both in obvious ways ("Health Warning") and less obviously (the reference to "never know what / right is doing" in "Sea Horse Trading") As for Mozza, like Bowie, he certainly went through a pathetic, belated adolescent neo-Nazi phase many moons ago, notably at some concert at Finsbury Park, I believe. I'd be interested to know - in an academic sense, I stress - what neo-Nazis listen to these days, as I'm writing a novel about racism in the UK. If anyone has info about this stuff, could they mail me? This will best be done off-list, so as not to infect the normally civilised idealcopy list with so much evil crap. Stephen - --- Alan Gray wrote: > >i think certain people get a real frisson of > excitement owning records by dodgy > >old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p > > >>Presumably that explains why people still > take an interest in that bittter old > >>tosspot who used to be Morrissey! > >>Tim Robinson > > Can someone explain this connection? > > Alan > http://members.tripod.co.uk/agray > ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:02:32 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: re horrible nazi scumbags Stephen, << As for Mozza, like Bowie, he certainly went through a pathetic, belated adolescent neo-Nazi phase many moons ago, notably at some concert at Finsbury Park, I believe. >> A bit unfair. Moz got into skinheads (ooo-err...) - and the associated imagery - basically had big 60s pics of skins as a backdrop and cavorted round draped in a union jack - this is supporting Madness at Finsbury Park in about 92. Of course, Madness have always had a big skinhead following (dig deep into Suggs' past and you'll find some unsavoury leanings, allegedly...), and the inevitable sieg heiling ensued. I don't believe for a moment Morrissey is a racist, but I'm sure he was after some headlines - which he duly received. It's odd that in the USA it's seen as patriotic and generally fine to have the star spangled banner flying in your front garden, but if you display the union jack in the UK you're some kind of neo-nazi.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:05:05 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Horrible nazi scumbags Tim, >>On a slightly surreal note, BBC Radio 1 DJ Mark Radcliffe used to be the drummer in Skrewdriver! Thats absolutely true. Apparently it was before they became Nazis and all that. I think he got quite freaked out when they embarked on their, ah, 'new direction'. >> I think that was very early in Skrewdriver's existence. Radcliffe was DJing on Piccadilly Radio in Manchester by 79 so he'd already been through the 'failed muso' phase by then. Skrewdriver's drummer on the album ended up in the slammer, I believe, though I don't know what for. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:07:13 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Pillow & Prayers Paul, << pillows and prayers was a brilliant idea that collected up a load of great tracks by fairly obscure acts and got them listened to by people who wouldn't normally have gone near an indie single of that type. wonder what's on the volume 2? more of the same i guess....... p >> I just picked this up. Yes, more of the same, and none the worse for it! Apparently Vol 2 was Japan-only originally... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:06:11 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: Re 'orrible nazi scumbags >i think certain people get a real frisson of excitement owning records by dodgy >old nazis. can't think of any other reason.p >>Presumably that explains why people still take an interest in that bittter old >>tosspot who used to be Morrissey! >>Tim Robinson >>Can someone explain this connection? I was trying to find out the Morrisey-Nazi connection. Either i didn't know or I've forgotten,somthing to do with a particular song? As far as music for nazi's these days goes,well the daft buggers must be even more confused. I can remember skinheads ruining gigs because they didn't like the Band.(Crass) and skinheads ruining gigs because they did like the Band. (Sham69, Specials,Madness) The difference seemed to be that they would gather outside,then burst in to attack crass gigs, where as they purchased tickets first and then gathered inside at Sham or the Madness gigs. In the latter, random members of the audience were beaten up over a period of time as the evening 'progressed', where as with Crass lots of people got it all at once. With OI and white reggae they've perverted other styles for their own ends. Why they latched on to reggae was beyond me. I suppose somthing original would involve some creative thought process. Do gigs get smashed up these days? Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:22:12 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: Re 'orrible nazi scumbags Someone coughed a couple of times at a Durutti Column gig and got thrown out. Chris. >>Do gigs get smashed up these days? >>Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:21:00 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: Re Orrible nazi scum >>A bit unfair. Moz got into skinheads (ooo-err...) - and the associated >>imagery - basically had big 60s pics of skins as a backdrop and cavorted >>round draped in a union jack - this is supporting Madness at Finsbury Park in >>about 92. Of course, Madness have always had a big skinhead following (dig >>deep into Suggs' past and you'll find some unsavoury leanings, allegedly...), >>and the inevitable sieg heiling ensued. I don't believe for a moment >>Morrissey is a racist, but I'm sure he was after some headlines - which he >>duly received. I do remember somthing about this, but nothing concrete then, (and more between the legs than between the ears?) more of a posture. It all seemed a far cry from gladdioli... Alan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 08:30:55 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Mark Bursa wrote: A bit unfair. Moz got into skinheads (ooo-err...) - and the associated imagery - basically had big 60s pics of skins as a backdrop and cavorted round draped in a union jack - this is supporting Madness at Finsbury Park in about 92. Of course, Madness have always had a big skinhead following (dig deep into Suggs' past and you'll find some unsavoury leanings, allegedly...), and the inevitable sieg heiling ensued. I don't believe for a moment Morrissey is a racist, but I'm sure he was after some headlines - which he duly received. It's odd that in the USA it's seen as patriotic and generally fine to have the star spangled banner flying in your front garden, but if you display the union jack in the UK you're some kind of neo-nazi.... ==================== If you look close enough in the USA, you can easily find a whole bunch of anti-USA hatred and self-loathing. I'm always struck by the paradoxical divisions between Left & Right in Europe and the U.K.. Right-wing extremists, i.e. nazis, are universally reviled (as they should be) because of the holocaust, etc. but Left-wing extremists, i.e. communists, get generally neutral, or positive press even though their regimes killed far more people in the 20th Century than those on the right. Hitler + Mussolini + Tojo + Franco = 20 Million+ killed. Lenin + Stalin + Mao + Castro + Pol Pot = 100 Million+ killed. Simply another reason why I don't like to mix politics with my music. Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:45:31 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Ray I don't want to get off on yet another politics debate here but I think you should acknowledge the fact that the Nazis were also supposedly 'socialist'. Nazi means National Socialist. I don't know of anyone of a mentally stable condition who advocates communism as practised by Pol Pot etc. Seems to me that communism is fine in principle until goverments get involved. 8-) John Roberts 'Whoever puts his hand on me to govern me is a usurper and a tyrant: I declare him my enemy' > ==================== > > I'm always struck by the paradoxical divisions between Left & Right in > Europe and the U.K.. Right-wing extremists, i.e. nazis, are universally > reviled (as they should be) because of the holocaust, etc. but Left-wing > extremists, i.e. communists, get generally neutral, or positive press even > though their regimes killed far more people in the 20th Century than those > on the right. Hitler + Mussolini + Tojo + Franco = 20 Million+ killed. Lenin > + Stalin + Mao + Castro + Pol Pot = 100 Million+ killed. > > Simply another reason why I don't like to mix politics with my music. > > Ray Ciscon > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:54:42 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Amen, unless it's The Rev. Al Green. Or The Right Rev. Twit Sinead O'Conner. Chris. >>Simply another reason why I don't like to mix politics with my music. >>Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:02:17 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Chris Ray wrote: The Right Rev. Twit Sinead O'Conner. ========= Nothing Compares to Her! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 09:06:32 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism John Roberts wrote Ray I don't want to get off on yet another politics debate here but I think you should acknowledge the fact that the Nazis were also supposedly 'socialist'. Nazi means National Socialist. I don't know of anyone of a mentally stable condition who advocates communism as practised by Pol Pot etc. Seems to me that communism is fine in principle until goverments get involved. 8-) John Roberts 'Whoever puts his hand on me to govern me is a usurper and a tyrant: I declare him my enemy' ===================== All true John, but I think that the vast majority of people would place the Nazi regime on the right side of the political spectrum. Seems to me that communism and socialism are fine in principle until reality gets involved. In the USA, the only place where Marxism is still considered a good idea are the places farthest removed from reality... college campuses. If you want to continue this political tinged conversation any further, lets take it off line into email. Cheers, Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:50:44 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Ray, Socialism/communism is based on generally positive principles, whereas fascism is not. The fact that Communism as PRACTICED by the likes of Stalin was as evil and corrupt as Nazism under Hitler is not a reflection of the original Marxist doctrines - rather an example of a Tyrant abusing his position to his own end. And proof that ultimately Marxism, however utopian in concept, was an unworkable concept in the real world. Mark << I'm always struck by the paradoxical divisions between Left & Right in Europe and the U.K.. Right-wing extremists, i.e. nazis, are universally reviled (as they should be) because of the holocaust, etc. but Left-wing extremists, i.e. communists, get generally neutral, or positive press even though their regimes killed far more people in the 20th Century than those on the right. Hitler + Mussolini + Tojo + Franco = 20 Million+ killed. Lenin + Stalin + Mao + Castro + Pol Pot = 100 Million+ killed. >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:09:28 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Mark Bursa wrote: Ray, Socialism/communism is based on generally positive principles, whereas fascism is not. The fact that Communism as PRACTICED by the likes of Stalin was as evil and corrupt as Nazism under Hitler is not a reflection of the original Marxist doctrines - rather an example of a Tyrant abusing his position to his own end. And proof that ultimately Marxism, however utopian in concept, was an unworkable concept in the real world. Mark =============== Mark, I don't think there's anything in your statement that I can disagree with, but it's not the thrust of my original statement, which is that left-wing dictators receive neutral to positive reportage from the media elite throughout the world, i.e. Castro, but right-wing dictators, i.e. Pinochet are universally reviled. Will the government of the U.K. arrest Fidel Castro if he goes to London for medical treatment? I doubt it. But the fact remains that he too has made people 'disappear', and has that nasty habit of putting gays and lesbians into mental hospitals and 'reeducation camps' that the media doesn't like to bring up Ray. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 12:19:22 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: OT: horrible nazi scumbags & Patriotism Ray, I'd say left-wing dictators receive pretty bad press, especially in the US, where Communism is more reviled than in Europe. I wouldn't say Castro gets good press here in the UK, though to be honest not enough happens in Cuba to warrant much coverage. As for arresting Castro - well don't forget he's currently in power (whereas Pinochet was not) and has stronger allies - so there would be something of a diplomatic incident! But if he was deposed in a revolution, his crimes were publicised and then he turned up here, I'd say the authorities would take the same attitude as they did with Pinochet, or any other discredited tyrant charged with crimes against humanity, regardless of political colour. Mark << I don't think there's anything in your statement that I can disagree with, but it's not the thrust of my original statement, which is that left-wing dictators receive neutral to positive reportage from the media elite throughout the world, i.e. Castro, but right-wing dictators, i.e. Pinochet are universally reviled. Will the government of the U.K. arrest Fidel Castro if he goes to London for medical treatment? I doubt it. But the fact remains that he too has made people 'disappear', and has that nasty habit of putting gays and lesbians into mental hospitals and 'reeducation camps' that the media doesn't like to bring up >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:38:22 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: Morrissey At Bat Morrissey is still out there, swinging away. I went to my birthday baseball game July 26th at Comiskey Park, where the Chicago White Sox play their games. And what song did I hear during batting practice? "Burn Down the Discos, Hang the Blessed DJ." Yes, it was "Panic." Memories must still linger about that great moment in Chicago White Sox history: Disco Demolition Night. George ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:25:34 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Morrissey At Bat George M. Hook wrote: Morrissey is still out there, swinging away. I went to my birthday baseball game July 26th at Comiskey Park, where the Chicago White Sox play their games. And what song did I hear during batting practice? "Burn Down the Discos, Hang the Blessed DJ." Yes, it was "Panic." Memories must still linger about that great moment in Chicago White Sox history: Disco Demolition Night. George =============== I was just at last Monday's Chicago White Sox game! Maggs drove that 3-run homer over the left field fence driving in Brook Fordyce & Ray Durham and 35,000 people went NUTS! Maggs was forced to come out of the dugout and tip his hat to the crowd! What perfect timing in that game, considering that Big Frank had popped out just before to make the 2nd out. I just hope that with Cal Eldred out for the rest of the season the White Sox will make a deal for a veteran pitcher. With Maggs, Big Frank, El Cabayo, James Baldwin, Foulke, and the rest of the kids, we'll hopefully continue to be the Best Team in Baseball! Go White Sox! As for music, the people at Comiskey have above average tastes in music. I've heard them play Bjork, Beck, Apollo 440, and the Cure amongst others. Not exactly your everyday music selection at a baseball stadium! There are tons of Wire intro's they could use on the Jumbotron screen when they show highlights from prior games... I can just imagine 'Three Girl Rumba' or 'Ahead' playing on the hundreds of speakers they must have there! If I knew the name of the person who picks the music, I'd buy a copy of 'The A List' and send it to them! Cheers, Ray (Cubs Suck!) Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:16:20 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Morrissey At Bat Obie wrote: This goes in the same category as 3com park (candlestick park) playing "Shut 'em down" by public Enemy during a Giants game (which is BTW the best team in baseball) I love when I hear "out of the norm" music in places I would never expect to. ============== Check the standings my friend... The White Sox, 1st place in the American League Central, have the BEST record in base ball with a .6xx winning percentage, while the 2nd Place San Francisco Giants, of the National League West, have a .556 winning percentage... Maybe we'll see you in the World Series! Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:18:05 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Recall: Morrissey At Bat Ciscon, Ray would like to recall the message, "Morrissey At Bat". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:18:57 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: FW: Morrissey At Bat Obie wrote: This goes in the same category as 3com park (candlestick park) playing "Shut 'em down" by public Enemy during a Giants game (which is BTW the best team in baseball) I love when I hear "out of the norm" music in places I would never expect to. ============== Check the standings my friend... The White Sox, 1st place in the American League Central, have the BEST record in base ball with a .618 winning percentage, while the 2nd Place San Francisco Giants, of the National League West, have a .556 winning percentage... Maybe we'll see you in the World Series! Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 18:43:56 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: Morrissey At Bat Ray, The American practice of playing music when anything happens at a sporting event has started spreading over here unfortunately.... Last week's England-West Indies-Zimbabwe triangular Cricket tournament had snippets of songs every time anyone smashed the ball out of the ground or got out (usually Song 2 by Blur when someone hit a 6...woo-hoo etc). It's supposed to appeal to a younger audience, apparently. Groan. Mark ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #233 *******************************