From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #208 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, July 6 2000 Volume 03 : Number 208 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Re: oh yes............... [sam charrington ] RE: Re Londons burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["giluz" ] RE: Re Londons burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["giluz" ] RE: Get ya haircut!!!!! ["giluz" ] Re Wire Gig at the internet [Alan Gray ] Re: Re Londons burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Associates... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Wire gig at the internet ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] RE: Wire gig at the internet ["giluz" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #207 [MackDaddyD ] Re: Get ya haircut!!!!! ["lucifersam" ] Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in the Sta tes ["C] RE: Wire gig at the internet [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in theSta tes ["lucifersam" ] Mistakes on Chairs Missing (?) [Carl Archer ] RE: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in theSta tes ["giluz" Subject: RE: Re: oh yes............... ...and i was lucky enough to be there on friday. hhmmmmmmmmmm. ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:56:48 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Re Londons burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > I believe that the Clash were punk, basically due to attitude. > As far as > I was concerned punk was never a style of music, it was to do with > attitude. Can were punk, Wire were punk, Syd Barrett was punk, The > Pistols were punk, all differing styles, but similar attitude. This is true in a sense, but I wouldn't call it punk, cause punk has too much conotations with the period and style of 1976-1977. I think it's a more universal thing which can be called the ideology of Rockn'roll, which can also be found in the 50's and 60's. Actually, it has been called the ideology of rock on lots of music theory books and articles. > My problem with The Clash (and I have to say, these people changed > my life!) was that by "London Calling" the attitude and spirit > had gone. > When they played Shea stadium, it was one of the saddest moments of > my (musical) life. Supporting a bunch of has beens, in a > massive fucking > stadium.YUK. Maybe that's what makes the Clash the archetypical punk band, and not the Sex Pistols. The Pistols were made into this huge publicity stunt very early in their career, while the Clash tried to maintain their musical and ideological independence, in spite of their commercial success. These two things are contradictory and that's what eventually led to an album like Combat Rock and their breakup. I think you can find in the Clash story everything that could be said about the punk ideology in a commercial music industry, especially when comparing it to things that happened in the early 90's, when it's been coopted successfully into commercialism with bands like Nirvana. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:58:56 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Re Londons burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > I still find it extraordinary that a band that was so instrumental in one > musical movement - punk - should be able to pinpoint the > zeitgeist of other > movements - London Calling refers pretty directly to the (then new) ska > movement in the UK and Sandanista contains almost certainly the first > references to hip hop culture on a "white boy" rock album. Total > respect, and > always very definitely "punk". > > Except for Cut the Crap :-( > > Mark > I disagree here, becuase I think punk was all these things together, and not only the stripped down tight rockn'roll which is associated with punk. As I mentioned in a previous e-mail, punk is best defined as ideology and not as just a musical style. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 12:04:20 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Get ya haircut!!!!! > > Fair point mate! Except of course TheProdigy have made some fantastic > records, 'Gilted Generation' deserves special mention. I last saw > the prod's > live about 6 years ago at the Island in Ilford, and the whole event was > fucking amazing. I've not seen that reaction from a crowd since I last saw > The Ramones some time in the distant and ancient past. Mind you, > seeing as I > was hallucinating by 4am, my account of events should be taken > lightly! ;-) > Le Cat Siamese. > > > You've never seen photos of Keith Flynt(sp?) of Prodigy taken > within the > > last 4 years, then. Absolutely the most idiotic-looking thing I've ever > laid > > eyes on. And as for aggregate bad hair, mid-'80s Cocteau Twins take the > > prize. > > > > Dan > What the prodigy did was to try and make elctronic music which could be played live just like a rock concert. Instead of the DJ sitting in its box, doing nothing exciting, as far as the audience is concerned, you had these dancers, which didn't have anything to do with the music itself, just with the live gigs. That was a nice idea, but it got spoilt as soon as the dancers (especially this Flynt wanker) tried to intervene with the music. The result is Lay of the Land (I think that's the right name - I mean their 3rd album), which is just regular songs wrapped up in an electronic package - totally disapointing and dated, especially as a followup to Gilted Generation, which was one of the most brilliant albums of the 90's. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:32:07 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: Re Wire Gig at the internet > > I just watched the Wire gig at the Metro, Chicago via videostreaming. > > Unbelievable and much better than the RFH gig. For those that didn't > > know > > about it, goto http://www.supersphere.com/Club/NoisePop/. > > > > giluz Not sure that it beats the RFH, (which was certainly the most comfy gig I remember.) Thanks to a certain person I now have taken my CDs home and bring a few in each day. I forgot this morning so its good to have this gig running while I work. I also have a few unreliable radio stations but... Any other URLS anyone? Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:25:03 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Londons burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Giluz << I disagree here, becuase I think punk was all these things together, and not only the stripped down tight rockn'roll which is associated with punk. As I mentioned in a previous e-mail, punk is best defined as ideology and not as just a musical style. >> i think you misunderstood what I said. I agree that Punk is a state of mind, not 2-minute fast rock songs. The attitude the Clash applied to London Calling and Sandanista is definitely Punk. That was the point I was making. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:31:48 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Associates... Peter, >>would whoever had posted at least a month ago info on an Associates webpage re-post the url? I'd love to take a look at it again & forgot to bookmark it!<< Try this... http://www.path.unimelb.edu.au/~new_wave/Associates.html Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:57:29 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: Wire gig at the internet > Well, there's a WinAmp plugin called Innover's RealAudio plugin, which is > supposed to convert RealAudio files to wav files. I didn't find any refernce > of converting RealMedia files (video streaming) to AVI or any other video > format. If someone can search the net for any other solution, please post it > on the list. I've never used it, but there's also a program by Streambox called the Ripper which is supposed to do the same thing. http://www.streambox.com Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 19:23:37 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Wire gig at the internet > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Paul Pietromonaco > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 5:57 PM > To: IdealCopy > Cc: Creatured > Subject: Re: Wire gig at the internet > > > > Well, there's a WinAmp plugin called Innover's RealAudio > plugin, which is > > supposed to convert RealAudio files to wav files. I didn't find any > refernce > > of converting RealMedia files (video streaming) to AVI or any > other video > > format. If someone can search the net for any other solution, > please post > it > > on the list. > > I've never used it, but there's also a program by Streambox called the > Ripper which is supposed to do the same thing. > > http://www.streambox.com > > Cheers, > Paul > Yeah, but the Innover plugin can stream RealMedia files (streaming video), even though it doesn't say anything about recording/converting them. That's the only reason why I'd use it if I could. As a plugin it's really useless, cause it doesn't replace RealPlayer - you'll have to keep RealPlayer installed because it uses it - so what's the point? I don't like RealPlayer and would very happily uninstall it. Unfortunately I'm quite dependent on it. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:21:37 -0500 From: MackDaddyD Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #207 > I just watched the Wire gig at the Metro, Chicago via videostreaming. > Unbelievable and much better than the RFH gig. For those that didn't know > about it, goto http://www.supersphere.com/Club/NoisePop/. actually even better than being there.... can't quite figure that out katheryn - the reason it was longer is the 5+ minutes of ambience whilst colin and bruce hashed out gear issues of 2 people who attended both shows, the opionion was mixed one prefered RFH - the other Metro 2 different beasts, i think > > How come AFOS come up so much in this mailing list? I didn't yet understand > what the attitude is towards them here, or if I may say it bluntly: Is it a > Wire thing or a Jeff Lynne thing? both! > > ... or I Melt with You was of Modern English's, as I noted a few minutes ago on another list) now associated with Burger King... > I think the Score brother (Mike?) whose coiffure led to AFOS being nicknamed > A Flock of Haircuts is indeed still with the band. Somehow, I've got the > impression that he's bald now, though I could be wrong. Mike Score did not have much hair 10 years ago when my band opened for them at the now defunct Avalon here in Chicago the set was prog-ish - (some on the list *might* appreciate that - but not me) Pretty dismal __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:26:53 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: Get ya haircut!!!!! > What the prodigy did was to try and make elctronic music which could be > played live just like a rock concert. Instead of the DJ sitting in its box, > doing nothing exciting, as far as the audience is concerned, you had these > dancers, which didn't have anything to do with the music itself, just with > the live gigs. That was a nice idea, but it got spoilt as soon as the > dancers (especially this Flynt wanker) tried to intervene with the music. > The result is Lay of the Land (I think that's the right name - I mean their > 3rd album), which is just regular songs wrapped up in an electronic > package - totally disapointing and dated, especially as a followup to Gilted > Generation, which was one of the most brilliant albums of the 90's. > > giluz > Agreed young man;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:08:52 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in the Sta tes I'm a big fan of the Prodigy's last album, 'Fat of the Land'. Their previous releases, including 'Jilted Generation', was relatively generic rave/dance white-boy hip-hop, with a few exceptions, 'Charly' & 'Break & Enter' come to mind. I didn't mind at all the verbal rants of Mr. Flint and company. It seems to be a hard and fast rule on American radio, instrumentals don't get airtime. You've got to have some kind of vocals to get played. No vocals, no play time. None. Zero. Which is why 'Firestarter' and 'Breathe' were considered breakthrough electronica tracks in the US. Chicago's local 'Alternative' radio station, Q-101, is about the only place you'll hear electronica on mainstream radio, and you'll only hear tracks WITH vocals, i.e. Underworld's 'Born Slippy' and 'Push Upstairs', Chemical Brothers 'Let Forever Be', Crystal Methods 'Busy Child'... hell, they even played an 808 State tune a few years back, BUT it was the one with Ian McCulloch on vocals, I think it was called 'Moses'. Moby was another electronica breakthrough in the US... his vocal heavy songs at least. Most people in the US haven't heard of Kraftwerk, Orbital, Aphex Twin, Juno Reactor, Utah Saints, Squarepusher, The Orb, and many other electronica artists that have had a modicum of success in the UK or Europe because they can't get any airplay at all here. So remember, you may not particularly care for the 'vocalized' version of the Prodigy, but when all you hear is the Dave Matthews Band, Metallica, Matchbox 20, etc. the Prodigy is a delightful change of pace. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Go White Sox! The best team in Baseball! -----Original Message----- From: lucifersam [mailto:lucifersam@supanet.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:27 PM To: giluz; IdealCopy Subject: Re: Get ya haircut!!!!! > What the prodigy did was to try and make elctronic music which could be > played live just like a rock concert. Instead of the DJ sitting in its box, > doing nothing exciting, as far as the audience is concerned, you had these > dancers, which didn't have anything to do with the music itself, just with > the live gigs. That was a nice idea, but it got spoilt as soon as the > dancers (especially this Flynt wanker) tried to intervene with the music. > The result is Lay of the Land (I think that's the right name - I mean their > 3rd album), which is just regular songs wrapped up in an electronic > package - totally disapointing and dated, especially as a followup to Gilted > Generation, which was one of the most brilliant albums of the 90's. > > giluz > Agreed young man;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:51:30 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: Wire gig at the internet >Yeah, but the Innover plugin can stream RealMedia files (streaming video), >even though it doesn't say anything about recording/converting them. That's >the only reason why I'd use it if I could. As a plugin it's really useless, >cause it doesn't replace RealPlayer - you'll have to keep RealPlayer >installed because it uses it - so what's the point? I don't like RealPlayer >and would very happily uninstall it. Unfortunately I'm quite dependent on >it. > Hiya! (^_^) Maybe it's just me, but I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. (^_^) Could you re-phrase your thought again? As for the Streambox program, I read the FAQ, and found out some more about it. It's a stand-alone program that takes a streaming RealVideo signal, and saves it on your hard drive for later re-use. This isn't quite the same as converting the file to an AVI or WAV, but it would seem to be perfect for what the poster of the original question wanted to do. I don't know of any commercially available products that will convert RealPlayer files to AVI/WAVs. Check out the Steambox VCR FAQ for more details: http://www.streambox.com/Products/VCR/faqs.asp Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 01:40:50 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in theSta tes All i would say Ray, Is that "Fat of the Land" is techno by numbers. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ciscon, Ray To: IdealCopy Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 8:08 PM Subject: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in theSta tes > I'm a big fan of the Prodigy's last album, 'Fat of the Land'. Their previous > releases, including 'Jilted Generation', was relatively generic rave/dance > white-boy hip-hop, with a few exceptions, 'Charly' & 'Break & Enter' come to > mind. > > I didn't mind at all the verbal rants of Mr. Flint and company. > > It seems to be a hard and fast rule on American radio, instrumentals don't > get airtime. You've got to have some kind of vocals to get played. > > No vocals, no play time. > > None. > > Zero. > > Which is why 'Firestarter' and 'Breathe' were considered breakthrough > electronica tracks in the US. Chicago's local 'Alternative' radio station, > Q-101, is about the only place you'll hear electronica on mainstream radio, > and you'll only hear tracks WITH vocals, i.e. Underworld's 'Born Slippy' and > 'Push Upstairs', Chemical Brothers 'Let Forever Be', Crystal Methods 'Busy > Child'... hell, they even played an 808 State tune a few years back, BUT it > was the one with Ian McCulloch on vocals, I think it was called 'Moses'. > > Moby was another electronica breakthrough in the US... his vocal heavy songs > at least. > > Most people in the US haven't heard of Kraftwerk, Orbital, Aphex Twin, Juno > Reactor, Utah Saints, Squarepusher, The Orb, and many other electronica > artists that have had a modicum of success in the UK or Europe because they > can't get any airplay at all here. > > So remember, you may not particularly care for the 'vocalized' version of > the Prodigy, but when all you hear is the Dave Matthews Band, Metallica, > Matchbox 20, etc. the Prodigy is a delightful change of pace. > > Cheers, > > Ray Ciscon > > Go White Sox! The best team in Baseball! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lucifersam [mailto:lucifersam@supanet.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 12:27 PM > To: giluz; IdealCopy > Subject: Re: Get ya haircut!!!!! > > > What the prodigy did was to try and make elctronic music which could be > > played live just like a rock concert. Instead of the DJ sitting in its > box, > > doing nothing exciting, as far as the audience is concerned, you had these > > dancers, which didn't have anything to do with the music itself, just with > > the live gigs. That was a nice idea, but it got spoilt as soon as the > > dancers (especially this Flynt wanker) tried to intervene with the music. > > The result is Lay of the Land (I think that's the right name - I mean > their > > 3rd album), which is just regular songs wrapped up in an electronic > > package - totally disapointing and dated, especially as a followup to > Gilted > > Generation, which was one of the most brilliant albums of the 90's. > > > > giluz > > > Agreed young man;-) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 21:18:58 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Get ya haircut!!!!! Hey!!! A breakthrough! I agree with giluz on something! - -Carl > From: "giluz" > What the prodigy did was to try and make elctronic music which could be > played live just like a rock concert. Instead of the DJ sitting in its box, > doing nothing exciting, as far as the audience is concerned, you had these > dancers, which didn't have anything to do with the music itself, just with > the live gigs. That was a nice idea, but it got spoilt as soon as the > dancers (especially this Flynt wanker) tried to intervene with the music. > The result is Lay of the Land (I think that's the right name - I mean their > 3rd album), which is just regular songs wrapped up in an electronic > package - totally disapointing and dated, especially as a followup to Gilted > Generation, which was one of the most brilliant albums of the 90's. > > giluz > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 21:31:26 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Mistakes on Chairs Missing (?) Any of my brethren musicians out there notice any mistakes on "From The Nursery"? Today on my drive home from work I could swear that I picked Graham forgetting to change to late in the beginning and Robert making a similar error about 45-60 seconds later in the same song. I could be delirious... - -Carl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:26:18 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here in theSta tes > Subject: Your Missing the Point on the Prodigy... at least here > in theSta tes > > > I'm a big fan of the Prodigy's last album, 'Fat of the Land'. > Their previous > releases, including 'Jilted Generation', was relatively generic rave/dance > white-boy hip-hop, with a few exceptions, 'Charly' & 'Break & > Enter' come to > mind. > > I didn't mind at all the verbal rants of Mr. Flint and company. > > It seems to be a hard and fast rule on American radio, instrumentals don't > get airtime. You've got to have some kind of vocals to get played. > > No vocals, no play time. > > None. > > Zero. > > Which is why 'Firestarter' and 'Breathe' were considered breakthrough > electronica tracks in the US. Chicago's local 'Alternative' radio station, > Q-101, is about the only place you'll hear electronica on > mainstream radio, > and you'll only hear tracks WITH vocals, i.e. Underworld's 'Born > Slippy' and > 'Push Upstairs', Chemical Brothers 'Let Forever Be', Crystal Methods 'Busy > Child'... hell, they even played an 808 State tune a few years > back, BUT it > was the one with Ian McCulloch on vocals, I think it was called 'Moses'. > > Moby was another electronica breakthrough in the US... his vocal > heavy songs > at least. If you try to analyse Firestarter and Breathe, you will find the same old punk-rock songs elements which are mainstream today, especially in the US. I don't mind combining vocals with electronics (even though I prefer it to be instrumental), but I don't think the comparison between Fat of the Land and Chemical Bros., Moby and their like is accurate. The Chemical Bros. use vocals just as another sound effect, another electronic instrument, and also as a kinda post-modern commentary on pop music. You've got lots of trashy hyper-commercialised elements like this in Surrender (the most obvious example being the oscillators in "Hey Girl Hey Boy"). Moby is trying to create a new kind of post-electronic song writing. With the Prodigy I got the feeling that the vocals addition was a step backwards instead of forwards. Take the playback off and replace it with analogue guitars and drums and you'll basically have the same songs. You can't even imagine trying to do that with the Chemical Bros and Moby. > Most people in the US haven't heard of Kraftwerk, Orbital, Aphex > Twin, Juno > Reactor, Utah Saints, Squarepusher, The Orb, and many other electronica > artists that have had a modicum of success in the UK or Europe > because they > can't get any airplay at all here. > > So remember, you may not particularly care for the 'vocalized' version of > the Prodigy, but when all you hear is the Dave Matthews Band, Metallica, > Matchbox 20, etc. the Prodigy is a delightful change of pace. That's a completely different subject. Radio is crap everywhere I've ever been to (even though rumours say that US radio is the crappiest - I don't know, never been there). It's nice when you have something better than Metallica played on the radio, and it's even nicer to think that some kids will perhaps get to be acquainted with less commercialised music through it. Still, radio is not everything. For the last 10 years radio has stopped being a source of new music for me. There are lots of alternative sources today, especially via the internet. Even if it were not so, it's not an excuse for making bad music, or even for making something which isn't bad but just a bit worse than what one did before. I would accept it if you just said that you liked vocalised electronics, but I don't accept that argument about reaching more people by making the music more accessible. > > Cheers, > > Ray Ciscon > > Go White Sox! The best team in Baseball! > giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #208 *******************************