From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #164 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, May 30 2000 Volume 03 : Number 164 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Cab Voltaire - post Watson [Jonathan Land ] Garage,etc [Anthony Clough ] Treasure maps. [BOURGEOISIE ] Re: Cab Voltaire - post Watson [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: ELO and the state we were in. ["Katherine Pouliot" ] Subject: Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!! ["webmaster" ] Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) ["lucifersam" ] Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) ["lucifersam" ] Re: Londons Burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["stephen graziano] Re: MDrifting ["MackDaddyD" ] Re: Garage,etc ["tube disaster" ] Re: Londons Burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ["tube disaster" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:06:07 -0400 From: Jonathan Land Subject: Re: Cab Voltaire - post Watson >They were great live when they started using a drummer (about the time Watson >left - 1981/82). 2x45 dates from that time and is another good 'un. It's >difficult to fault the Cabs from 'Nag Nag Nag' (fantastic single) through to >'Crackdown'. Lucky bastard. I saw them on a triple bill (The Cabs, Front Line Assembly, and Einsturzende Neubauten) in 1990 (I think), and it was so sad I could cry. I think they were promoting "Colours". I actually did think they were getting back into interesting territory (particularly International Language) right before they broke up, but I guess it was too little, too late. Of course, the most memorable part of the show in '90 was when Neubauten started playing an amplified shopping cart with a chainsaw. Jon - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://incomplete.net If it's not here, it's incomplete! jland@incomplete.net Guinea Pig cam available (sometimes) at http://incomplete.net/espicam.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:58:54 +0100 () From: Anthony Clough Subject: Garage,etc Did anyone attend all three nights - I'm sure they did. Was there much variation ? I heard one new song on the Friday "Hypnotise" (?). Is there the basis of a new set forming ? Also, I don't recall the Homosexuals being mentioned on this list. They were more or less contemporary with Wire and released a few singles/eps at the time which were later collected on The Homosexuals Record, an album on Recommended. Hard to describe (ok:oblique lyrics/catchy tunes and riffs/exagerated cockney vocals/assorted weirdness) but I suspect anyone who likes early Wire would want to check them out. Secondhand only at present I think. As for Faust - mentioned recently - yesterday I had the pleasure of seeing Jean-Herve Peron performing with Chris Cutler. I always suspected he wrote the songs - he performed a rough but spirited set of Faust classics (having been ejected from the band a while back). A far cry from the enjoyable but unvarying racket of the current band live. If he does it near you I'd say go. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) From: BOURGEOISIE Subject: Treasure maps. Arghh...set sail for The Rolling Stone web site laddy, if ye look at the A-Z artists listing under Wire, there ye may find a link to the Ahead video. If you like Stan Ridgway then ye might also plunder the radiosonic web site's Vancouver recording for some recordings from his recent show. Yarrr.. Robert. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:03:09 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Cab Voltaire - post Watson Jon, << Lucky bastard. I saw them on a triple bill (The Cabs, Front Line Assembly, and Einsturzende Neubauten) in 1990 (I think), and it was so sad I could cry. I think they were promoting "Colours". I actually did think they were getting back into interesting territory (particularly International Language) right before they broke up, but I guess it was too little, too late. Of course, the most memorable part of the show in '90 was when Neubauten started playing an amplified shopping cart with a chainsaw. >> Oh, Neubauten were great...saw them twice I think - once supporting the Birthday Party at the Lyceum (about '82) and a bit later headlining at North London Poly where they set fire to the stage. I have the first album somewhere with a fantastic pic on the back of them with all their "instruments" laid out in front of them (drills etc). It's like the sort of pic an aircraft manufacturer would issue of their latest jet fighter, with all its weapons in front of it.... I saw the Cabs a few times between 81 and 84....a power trio from another planet.....great visuals too - screens and stacks of TV sets...sort of effect U2 borrowed on a grander scale much, much later with Zoo TV. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:08:55 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: ELO and the state we were in. For you and everyone else with that attitude - I quote Carl Archer: "Honestly I don't know why people on a WIRE list are so close-minded about other music. It's a silly paradox. If you don't have anything informative or something nice to say, don't say it." Thanks Carl!!! way to go. Katherine - ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Gray To: Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 11:27 AM Subject: ELO and the state we were in. > This ELO stuff. > ELO were to me, a dire commercial effort. > I am often embarrased by my musical past which formed in the early seventies when at school. I was into a lot of stuff which is still requarded as OK, from Zep' purp' floyd' hawkwind and other biker metabolist stuff to Faust Fripp tangerine dream right through gentle giant to horror of horrors for some, Yes. > The thing was there were play lists on Radio 1 which seemed to rule out anything that was any good being played. > I don't know what it was like in USA but we had almost nothing but rubbish on the radio played by smarmy odious creeps. > > A lot of this stuff was what I call (American) Maple Syrup music. > > The Alan Freeman spot at the weekend was about the only time I could actually hear some music I liked being played on the radio. > > Pub jukebox music was also 99.999% unplayable, and ELO were on every single one. > > There was a chance that a single (perhaps Bowie or Roxy Music) would creep into the charts though the odious dj's would hardly ever play it. > > There were other bands that had rock leanings ELO, and QUO which were the playlist concessions to those with less commercial taste.(some concession) > > > > The radio playlist was designed as somnabulance for the workplace and QUO and ELO were variants but thats all they were. > > If you appreciated ELO then I reckon that you were cluching at straws. It was awfull, what we had to endure on the radio and people who are not as ancient (41) as me are unaware of that. > > Thats the kindest thing I can say about ELO, and as for the Cars, they were about as interesting as Austin Allegros. > > Alan > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:11:26 -0400 From: "Katherine Pouliot" Subject: Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!! hahahahhaa - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!! > Katherine, > > Crikey! Being vilified for dissing ELO is quite an achievement! > > I am far from perfect but entirely chilled. But Jeff Lynne's perm gives me > nightmares. And if you saw ELO more than 20 years ago you can't be that far > behind me in age terms.....I'll reserve the rocking chair next to mine in the > old folks home for you if you like ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:26:17 -0500 From: "webmaster" Subject: Subject: Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!! In my not so humble estimation, the Clash are just as fucking awful as ELO. Fortunately ELO didn't mascarade to be anything BUT pompous over blown twaddle, so the Clash are the big losers here. BTW you can substitute Clash with just about ANY "punk" band from that era. Amazing what twenty to thirty years perspective can do to music. charles >ELO was the biggest load of pompous, overblown twaddle.... the only good >point about the existence of dreadful bands like that was that it created the >musical vacuum that was filled by punk.... >Mark (always amazed by the US take on Brit music.......) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:40:32 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: Re: Highbury and The Cabs Good show Sunday: shame about the non-encore ... they seemed all set to come out again. Wonder if someone had the screaming hump (ie was extremely annoyed about something)?? And if so who?? The guitarist was introduced as Steve Wright - not the nicey and smashie-esque radio 2 disc jockey but another one, credited with mixing or something or other on 'It's all in the brochure'. Very annoyed that I didn't go Saturday too - missed my chance to see/hear Mannequin. Probably for ever. Oh well. Agree with the comparisons with Neu on the song arrangements. 'It's all in the brochure' bears this out on close listening. (BTW, this Cd is well worth the money, and some more). I wonder if the neu link is in any way conscious? Very interested to read in The Onion that Bruce is not a `consumer' of music, or so he says. But no artist exists in a vacuum, do they? Do they?? Someone recently trashed the new song 'Hypnotised'. Well, I like it, and hope it sees the light of (recorded) day someplace. Which brings neatly me on to Cabaret Voltaire, `Hypnotised' being one of their less luminous moments. Six better ones were 1. Nag Nag Nag (1978?)- the opening racket plus mad drum machine still makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. 2. Yashar (1981)- a 12" on Factory - with a middle eastern feel several years before Jah Wobble cottoned on to this. Contains the memorable sample `There's seventy billion people over there/where are they hiding?' 3. Version of Velvets 'Here she comes now' on Live at the YMCA (1980) - rest of the album is a must for lo-fi fans. At one point an audience member can be heard to say 'my last train left five minutes ago'. 4 Sensoria (1984)- they were trying hard to sell out with this one, but even so ... anyone remember the video, with the emaciated preacher doing the `always work/go to church/ respect those in power' sampled hot-prot thing? And the camera on a see-saw effect? 5. 'Thank you America' off 'Code'(?1986). Who is the sampled politician? 'I have recovered/I feel fine'. I'd go for George Wallace - he got shot and recovered, didn't he? 6. City Lights off `Groovy laidback and nasty'- by this time (1990?) they were desperately trying to be dancey and we all know how fetching back to front baseball caps look on 35 year olds (like me next year, for example), but i still like it, I just don't care... 6a. Cover version of ELO's forgotten classic `Mr Blue Skies'. OK, just joking, no flames necessary. I have almost everything recorded by OMD, for goodness sake. We all have our soft underbellies. Did the Cabs make any impression on America at all? Much of their sample-heavy material was Americana - preachers, politicians, militia loons giving instructions on how to load guns - that sort of malarkey. Would go down like a bucket of cold sick in some quarters, I imagine, but perhaps not in others. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:48:33 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) > > Wooops, cat's out of the bag now, > > I have a terrible confession to make: I'm secretly Ricky Martin. > Furthermore, my entire record collection consists of, in reverse > chronological order, Britney Spears, some of my own work, the Spice Girls, > Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, LaToya Jackson, the Partridge Family, and the > Monkees. > > I'm sorry, so sorry, about this whole artrock fiasco. I'm just a faker. Um....excuse me.....are you implying that there is something wrong with The Monkees!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? Le Cat Siamese (No body's Stepping Stone!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:45:08 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Year the Roof off the sucker!!!!!!!!!!! I must concur with Mark on this point. Other than Bowie, T.rex, Roxy, Mott et al, pre- Punk in England was a Hippy Wasteland. Not even real Hippies, just dirty old people with beards, smoking dope and wearing too much damned denim! The only real scene around these parts at the time were clubs like The Lacy lady, who, apart from being the best soul club in England at the time, also had a great Bowie night on thursdays.The Clash also played there in Nov' '76 with Subway Sect. The Goldmine @ Canvey Island was also a happening place. All Bootsy Collins, Parliament etc....Chris Hill at the Lacy.......God I feel old...... The Siam Cat (off to dig out his plastic sandals, mohair jumper and baggy trousers!) > Dan, > > Well, when prog rock strode the earth like a long-haired and rather smelly > colossus in the '70s I became soemthing of a closet soul boy - turned to > stuff like things on the Philadelphia label, george McCrae, even big fat > Bazza White. Great, slick pop records that didn't outstay their welcome. > School friends who had been into Bowie/Roxy/Mott etc suddenly started > listening to Rick Wakeman albums... Misery until punk came and saved the day. > > Last Night a DJ Saved My Life is a great record too.... > > Mark > > << Mother of god, just now while driving to the mechanic's to tell them why > I'd > left my poor, barely running '88 Dodge Colt on their parking lot last night, > in light of this quarrel over '70s stuff I found myself ruminating on my own > occasional fondness for disco ... I think it was the mix tape I was > listening to (the fact that this rental car has a functioning cassette > player is quite a novelty for me, since the Colt's stopped working in 9/90), > since along with Fascist Groove Thing, Seconds, She's Lost Control & Lined > Up I included the likes of Right Back Where We Started From (which I've > always liked, even back in the late '70s when I was required by stereotype > to hate disco) & Last Night a DJ Saved My Life (which I gather has been > redone within the last couple of years ... I seriously doubt that I want to > hear that). > > Anyway, as I noted earlier, I think we're talking mainly about youthful > prejudices coming into play ... as when I found myself in full, frothing > glory Saturday night after a page designer, reacting to my diatribe against > a band playing the local festival the next day (Ratdog, some vile offshoot > of the Grateful Dead [but I repeated myself]), innocently wondered whether I > liked early '70s SoCal stuff like Poco & the Eagles ... I *think* he still > has a head. > >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:59:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) On Tue, 30 May 2000, lucifersam wrote: > > > Wooops, cat's out of the bag now, > > > > I have a terrible confession to make: I'm secretly Ricky Martin. > > Furthermore, my entire record collection consists of, in reverse > > chronological order, Britney Spears, some of my own work, the Spice Girls, > > Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, LaToya Jackson, the Partridge Family, and the > > Monkees. > > > > I'm sorry, so sorry, about this whole artrock fiasco. I'm just a faker. > > Um....excuse me.....are you implying that there is something wrong > with The Monkees!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? Well, you *know*, they didn't write any of their own music. - -Ricky ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:03:17 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Garage,etc Tony, << Did anyone attend all three nights - I'm sure they did. Was there much variation ? I heard one new song on the Friday "Hypnotise" (?). Is there the basis of a new set forming ? >> Friday and Saturday were pretty much the same - apart from the fact that Wire were a lot harder and tighter on Saturday. The set was the same both nights - opening with Pink Flag, then Silk Skin Paws, and taking in 40 versions, Boiling Boy, Lowdown, Advantage in Height, Another the Letter and the new song, called 'He Knows' (which is sounding really good now - similar to 'A Mutual Friend' in some ways, building to a nice crescendo in the middle before a long fade with Lewis intoning 'With all your love....we're hypnotised' to fade... Mighty versions of Mercy wrapped up both nights, before the surprise encore....Mannequin and Go Ahead.... ("bet you didn't think we'd do that one" quipped Colin after playing it on Friday). Remember the postcards advertising the Garage gigs that were given out at the RFH...they had the Mannequin head on the back....so perhaps it was all part of the plan??? 12XU and feisty versions of Drill (largely instrumental, with added Susan Stenger on Saturday) rounded up the night. Oh, and Heartbeat was the first encore on Saturday - the only change between the two sets. Sunday was different - opening with a new (jammed?) song with Lewis on vocals, and two sax players, one of whom was the legendary Ted Milton out of Blurt (who I swear has not aged a day in 20 years). Thereafter they played the same set but in a different order - adding Heartbeat and closing with Pink Flag. No encore, despite an enthusiastic crowd. And that, apparently, is that until August, when Wire will reconvene to write new material. From what I gather, enthusiasm for just playing the old stuff is waning, and Wire want to move on. So next time (if there is a next time) I guess you'll see a different approach - a new set with the odd oldie thrown in. (Mercy, Pink Flag and Another the Letter seem to be played with particular relish). Quality Control is woirking - The Art of Persistence seeems to have been dropped - but they seem happy with He Knows (played every night) so all bodes well. The Albini sessions will be the next pinkflag.com release. They had the RFH CD on Sat/Sun but not on Friday....and they still had 'The Third day' too. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:05:06 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) >>But ELO just brought the horror of the mid-'70s flooding back....I >>couldn't >help it!!! > >;-) > >Mark What about the Good Rats!? Stephen G. (who dosen't mind admitting that even now he likes Led Zep) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:09:30 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) Joshua, << Well, you *know*, they didn't write any of their own music. >> err....try 'Circle Sky' off Head, possibly the best thing Mike Nesmith ever did. Besides, the Monkees TV shows are very high art. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:09:28 EDT From: VoxxJaguar@aol.com Subject: Re: Commercial Radio In a message dated 5/30/00 11:14:57 AM Central Daylight Time, owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org writes: > > This ELO stuff. > ELO were to me, a dire commercial effort. > I am often embarrased by my musical past which formed in the early seventies > when at school. I was into a lot of stuff which is still requarded as OK, > from Zep' purp' floyd' hawkwind and other biker metabolist stuff to Faust > Fripp tangerine dream right through gentle giant to horror of horrors for > some, Yes. > The thing was there were play lists on Radio 1 which seemed to rule out > anything that was any good being played. > I don't know what it was like in USA but we had almost nothing but rubbish > on the radio played by smarmy odious creeps. It was similar over here, Alan. Probably worse. We all know how disgusting commercial radio has been over the years. It's still there, obviously with this N'Sync/Britney/etc...that's being pushed thru the machine and perpetrated on the youth. It's funny cause of all the kids that are swallowing this culture, I'll bet there's a bunch of future Wire fans out there, but it'll take years for them to dig themselves outta that corporate sludge and figure it out....just like us, eh? dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:11:38 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!!No!!!!!) >> >Last Night a DJ Saved My Life is a great record too.... > "and away goes trouble down the drain ..." ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:13:58 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!! Charles, Crikey! You are indeed a brave man!!!!! Needless to say I disagree, but am at a loss as to where to start. So I won't. Just I've rarely seen anything as life-affirming as the Clash live, something I experienced just once but wish I could see again. Mark << In my not so humble estimation, the Clash are just as fucking awful as ELO. Fortunately ELO didn't mascarade to be anything BUT pompous over blown twaddle, so the Clash are the big losers here. BTW you can substitute Clash with just about ANY "punk" band from that era. Amazing what twenty to thirty years perspective can do to music. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:10:24 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Londons Burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This of course is fighting talk. The Clash may have turned out a load of Karoke twaddle towards the end of there time. Sandinista, as previously discussed on this list, was the worst offender of this. However, I defy anyone to suggest that Strummer was anything other than 100% up front about his art. Jesus, the songs just reel off the tongue. White Riot, English Civil War,Whiteman in Hammersmith Palais,London Calling, Clash City Rockers, Complete Control....shall I continue?????? I grew up on the Clash, I gave up on 'em after "London Calling" as I Beleived that artistically they'd lost the plot. But at no time did I ever doubt there sincerity or commitment. OK, Jonesy got all pop star and acted like a twat, so much so that he got the Spanish Fiddler (Sorry-EL-Bow to our American cousins). I saw the Clash about 25 times between 77-79. Every time they played London I was there, and they weren't like the big "I am" premadonnas we have now. It's all gone Back to 1974. Lets play every 3 fucking years @ Wembley Fucking Stadium and charge the punters £30 to get in. The Clash played constantly. 3 nights at a time at The Lyceum, or the Music Machine. They could have Played Wembley or some such shit, but the biggest venue I ever saw them in was The Rainbow in '77 and That only held about 2500 people. The Clash and The Pistols Changed the world. ELO couldn't change there Fucking pants!!!!!(No disrespect Katherine!) The Laughing Madcap... Killer of Hippies/Revolutionary/Lover/Father. > In my not so humble estimation, the Clash are just as fucking awful as ELO. > Fortunately ELO didn't mascarade to be anything BUT pompous over blown > twaddle, so the Clash are the big losers here. BTW you can substitute Clash > with just about ANY "punk" band from that era. > > Amazing what twenty to thirty years perspective can do to music. > > > charles > > > >ELO was the biggest load of pompous, overblown twaddle.... the only good > >point about the existence of dreadful bands like that was that it created > the > >musical vacuum that was filled by punk.... > > >Mark (always amazed by the US take on Brit music.......) > ------------------------------ Date: 30 May 2000 13:18:41 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re: Cabaret Vo The Monkees' "Headquarters." Great album. Check it out. Jack "Well she's my sunny girlfriend... she doesn't really care." lucifersam@supanet.com wrote: >> > Wooops, cat's out of the bag now, >> >> I have a terrible confession to make: I'm secretly Ricky Martin. >> Furthermore, my entire record collection consists of, in reverse >> chronological order, Britney Spears, some of my own work, the Spice Girls, >> Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, LaToya Jackson, the Partridge Family, and the >> Monkees. >> >> I'm sorry, so sorry, about this whole artrock fiasco. I'm >just a faker. > > Um....excuse me.....are you implying that there is something wrong > with The Monkees!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? > > Le Cat Siamese > (No body's Stepping Stone!) > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:15:51 +0100 From: "lucifersam" Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!! No!!!!!) > > > I'm sorry, so sorry, about this whole artrock fiasco. I'm just a faker. > > > > Um....excuse me.....are you implying that there is something wrong > > with The Monkees!!!!!!!!!?????????????????? > > Well, you *know*, they didn't write any of their own music. > << -Ricky > > ___ ___ > > http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) > > --- --- > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:50:18 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Londons Burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ricky, I actually like Sandanista. Well, not all of it, but what a fantastic thing to do. Did you see Strummer talking about Sandanista on the recent documentary? How it was a product of all the stuff they were into - from dub to blues to jazz to country to pub rock to proto-hip hop. Recorded in a couple of weeks and they just put it all out, no editing. Let the buyer work it out. OK, nobody I know (myself included) likes it all. But I bet you can find an album's worth of magic. No problem, as that was all it cost. £3.99 I think - same price as a single album. Marvellous, isn't it? leather jackets for goalposts, mmm? (Keep the Yanks confused!) Mark 25 times - lucky git. All we had oop North was Mark E Smith down the WMC. << This of course is fighting talk. The Clash may have turned out a load of Karoke twaddle towards the end of there time. Sandinista, as previously discussed on this list, was the worst offender of this. However, I defy anyone to suggest that Strummer was anything other than 100% up front about his art >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:55:49 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: Cabaret Voltaire was: In defense of The Cars (Re: Oi!! ELO!!!No!!!!!) >> >Well, when prog rock strode the earth like a long-haired and rather smelly >colossus in the '70s I became soemthing of a closet soul boy - turned to >stuff like things on the Philadelphia label, george McCrae, even big fat >Bazza White. Great, slick pop records that didn't outstay their welcome. >School friends who had been into Bowie/Roxy/Mott etc suddenly started >listening to Rick Wakeman albums... Misery until punk came and saved the >day. I'm 42, came of age musically during the 70's (had a rather sheltered childhood. Didn't get my own radio till '69, AM, so listened to chart radio to/through 73) My problem with "prog" rock which in various forms swept both US and UK was that though initially impressive, it got old and stale very fast to even my inexperianced ears. It became heavy metal/rock with a musicianally selfsuperiority complex. So when in highschool, the kids I hung with, Black Sabbath (Paranoid, MastersofReality, 4) Deep Purple, Zeppelin (natch), Alice Cooper (actually, I still like ACB "Love it to Death" through "Billion Dollar Babies"), the Who were among the main acts that everyone listened to while ensemble. And of course, the local FM reinforced that with heavy play of those bands. Yes, ELP, and such would come along, and those guys that professed to have some higher degree of musical sophistication (i.e. they wanted more than to get trashed and listen to the same record over and over and over and over) would get very excited by the musical virtuosity of the people in those bands. And, I must say, with first experiances of pot coinciding with hearing those bands (add Gentle Giant, Wakeman's Journey to the Center of the Earth(yeesh!), Renaissance (ooh, a Jean Shephard like roundabout referance back to ELO via Roy Wood), Return to Forever (my first official concert - Central Park 197(4?) a lot of it became intially impressive. And to a large degree - in very small doses (like one song) I still admire the sound, the unique sound of those bands, and the inventive ideas they had. But the problem is, for me, I crave adventure, and none of those bands seemed to move ahead from where they started at. And it seemed, melodic inventiveness (I guess those years of listening to the AM) seemed to be sacrificed at the altar of instrumental virtuosity. (I can remember how over the top all my friends were with Jeff Beck's "Blow By Blow" and I'm going "ok, next"). And of course the biggest problem with that scene was when the lesser talents, who thought it was all about how many notes can you play in x amount of time, and had no sense of melodisism came more and more to the fore. It was the "weird" kid in our class that like (openly) Bowie, had a slightly Ziggy hairstyle and who's sexual orientation was wondered at by us who had no idea what sexual orientation really meant. He also professed to liking the NY Dolls which for the most part the hoi polloi opinion was expressed by my best friends older brother when he spotted a kid wearing a Dolls tshirt (back in '75!!) "That guy needs a tastebud transplant." Oh yeah, Kiss were massively poplular in Brooklyn. But anyway, I was always vaguely dissatisfied with this state of affairs. To me, music was just too important to be consumed so acceptingly, and also it seemed to me that for the intensity of personal experiance that "great" music gave me, I didn't like sharing it with so many others, who frankly, I didn't quite like all that much. So what happens? You distance yourself from the crow. Start to seek out alternative outlets. For me it was the discovery of a radio statio. Whereas before it was WPLJ and WNEW and WLIR, I found WFMU out of Upsala college on the "left end of the dial" Freeform, alternative radio. Music played by the dj's that they selected. 30+ long sets with no commercials. I became enfatuated. I used to carry a notebook around with me and my radio keeping track of where a song was in a set, so that when the dj announced I'd know which was the one I liked. And what was more, he was playing stuff that nobodyelse (at least Brooklywise) was into and it seemed they played anything, and everything. I took a job working overnite in a supermarket just because I could hook my portable into the PA system and listen to this station all night! and get paid for it! It's hard to remember the dj's. I recall Bud Stypel, R. Stevie Moore, Irwin Chuswid (who is still on the air there). But what I remember most was that they played bands with songs. Where you got the idea, and once you got the idea, they moved on. Of all the punk records, the first one I bought (maybe the second, I think maybe I got a 12" of "Anarchy in the UK" first) was Wire's Pink Flag. By late 70's I'm in college, still working at the supermarket, don't see my high school friends anymore but i do pal with other guys that work at the supermarket - and jeesh! - they are in to disco in a big way. But there was one other guy, who didn't mind to step out of the herd and when he said he wanted to hear some of this "weird punk stuff" that I was into I went over to his place with Pink Flag and Ubu's "Datapanik" ep. He just fell off the couch laughing his ass off! (I think Heart of Darkness did this to him) But he listened. And after about an hour he liked it. And I've found that I bond to people much better who show a level of appreciation comparable to mine of band's that I like a lot, and that over time the friends and lovers I've made that liking the same band's is prerequisit to any kind of extended relationship. But not many people consider music to be at all "important", much less when one goes out of one's way to find and support "nonpopular" acts. The quest continues. Today God Speed You Black Emporer, Royal Trux, float my boat. Always searching...... Steve G. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:02:40 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: Highbury and The Cabs >Did the Cabs make any impression on America at all? Much of their >sample-heavy material was Americana - preachers, politicians, militia >loons giving instructions on how to load guns - that sort of malarkey. >Would go down like a bucket of cold sick in some quarters, I imagine, >but perhaps not in others. > >Howard no ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 15:23:04 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: Londons Burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the Clash are sort of the Jonah's of punk, aren't they. Whereas the Pistols proclaimed to want to burn it all down, The Clash were going to change the system from the inside. But they got churned in the belly of the beast. From a US perspective (don't know how CBS UK were viewed), they got screwed right from the start. As you may remember, the 1st album didn't get a US release concurrent with the UK, Columbia didn't think they had a market here. That record became the fastest selling import in US record industry history, so then Columbia said they wouldn't release it because it's audience had already bought the record!. The #1 finally came out - it was with some latter singles tracks added, and other's dropped (shades of the Beatles). Then album #2, at the pressure of the Company, Clash allow Sandy (Blue Oyster Cult) Pearlman to produce them - because Santheman knows how to get that big rock sound that'll break the American heartland. Dubious decision with dubious results. To this day, the album sounds turgid (the single sound great). London Calling, new plan - cheap double album - value for the fans - great! - except the record company cuts royalties to band to make up difference in lost revenues. But - a hit single!! - America waits to be taken - so - on to SANDANISTA - the great statement. Will make the White Album look tightly edidted. Triple album (hahaha to you Pink Floyd, ELP and you other pompous bastards). How you gonna pay for it boys? Well, they have to agree to extend their original 5(!!) album deal (what punk band gets a 5 album deal?) by another couple of records to reimburse the company. Oh yeah, the sessions take forever, the band gets deeper in debt. They work in an expensive fancy studio (Electic Ladyland) taking way too much drugs, letting other people work on their dime (Bush Tetra's for ex.) and then have to tour for years to support the disc. Is it any wonder they "forgot" what the were about (or was it all just a Berny Rhoades scheme that they were willing dupes for) and just turned into another rock band who thought that a stadium gig in front of thousands of stoned teenagers looking to rock out and get laid would subvert the fabric of American society. They didn't overturn convention. They wound up reinforcing it. Steve G. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:27:34 -0500 From: "MackDaddyD" Subject: Re: MDrifting Off topic and commercial - I say flame is in order. Besides - This item was available directly from Simon Raymonde's label Bella Union WWW.bellaunion.com Send your money to the artists, not oportunistic collectors. Those who wish to profit from 'collectables' should stick to eBay (I do) Btw - this shows up in the used bins in Chicago for under $10 regularly. > > I have a CD for sale from the 2nd Annual Festival > of Drifting. > It is one 40 minute mix by Robin Gutherie > containing tracks / excerpts from Silo, Sonic > Youth, Chris & Cosey, Casper Brotzman, La > Bradford etc. > I'm asking £25 for this classic collectible. > Email me privately. > > AKH. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:43:40 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Garage,etc - ->Also, I don't recall the Homosexuals being mentioned on this list. They >were more or less contemporary with Wire and released a few singles/eps at the >time which were later collected on The Homosexuals Record, an album on >Recommended. Hard to describe (ok:oblique lyrics/catchy tunes and >riffs/exagerated cockney vocals/assorted weirdness) but I suspect anyone who likes early >Wire would want to check them out. Secondhand only at present I think. Not mentioning them was my oversight, then, as I found the album (after several years of desultorily searching) at the used store near my house a couple of months ago. A bit off-putting on first listen (of course, Pink Flag must've been, too, though I don't remember that being the case, whereas I remember *hating* the likes of Leave Home, Rocket to Russia, Pure Mania & More Songs About Buildings & Food the first few times), but definitely due several more playings. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:56:02 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Londons Burning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of the 4 lists I contribute fairly heavily to, I guess this is the only one where I haven't talked about my love/hate relationship with the Clash ... The short version -- I've never seen a band fall so far, so hard & so (making up a word here, probably) *linearly*, quite possibly for some of the reasons Steve enumerates below. Great first album (all I'm familiar with is the adulterated US version, though I suppose someday I could go the the bother of redubbing the original track listing) ... OK second album with about 1 side of filler, though the high points (Safe European Home, mainly) are indeed very high ... OK third album, with about *2* sides of filler (roughly equivalent to the second disc, which I guess I haven't bothered playing in nearly 2 decades, having rescued I'm Not Down & Train in Vain onto cassette back in the mid-'80s) ... Well, midway through London Calling they completely lost me. Indeed, in retrospect that album was the first release in my young life that I found a truly crushing, personal disappointment, so much so that I couldn't be bothered to pick up anything new (as opposed to the Black Market Clash 10") of theirs for another decade, by which time of course it wasn't new at all. And even then, the only reason I own Combat Rock (about 1 1/2 sides of filler) & Cut the Crap (one good song, This is England, & the rest filler) is that a friend of mine was culling her collection & mailed them to me for the (diffident) asking. Sandinista I picked up used around '93 ... haven't ever managed to listen to it all the way through, but I'd say that the ever-increasing keeper-to-filler ratio appears to have stayed on pace with this piece of self-indulgence, beside which A New World Record probably (all I've got is a greatest hits) sounds like Pink Flag in comparison. I realized last year, with the release of a new one by Strummer, that I'd go see him only if he were playing in town for $8, tops. That's pretty pathetic. Same would've been true of BAD or BAD II or whatever the hell they wound up being called. Dan >the Clash are sort of the Jonah's of punk, aren't they. Whereas the Pistols >proclaimed to want to burn it all down, The Clash were going to change the >system from the inside. But they got churned in the belly of the beast. >From a US perspective (don't know how CBS UK were viewed), they got screwed >right from the start. As you may remember, the 1st album didn't get a US >release concurrent with the UK, Columbia didn't think they had a market >here. That record became the fastest selling import in US record industry >history, so then Columbia said they wouldn't release it because it's >audience had already bought the record!. The #1 finally came out - it was >with some latter singles tracks added, and other's dropped (shades of the >Beatles). Then album #2, at the pressure of the Company, Clash allow Sandy >(Blue Oyster Cult) Pearlman to produce them - because Santheman knows how to >get that big rock sound that'll break the American heartland. Dubious >decision with dubious results. To this day, the album sounds turgid (the >single sound great). London Calling, new plan - cheap double album - value >for the fans - great! - except the record company cuts royalties to band to >make up difference in lost revenues. But - a hit single!! - America waits >to be taken - so - on to SANDANISTA - the great statement. Will make the >White Album look tightly edidted. Triple album (hahaha to you Pink Floyd, >ELP and you other pompous bastards). How you gonna pay for it boys? Well, >they have to agree to extend their original 5(!!) album deal (what punk band >gets a 5 album deal?) by another couple of records to reimburse the company. > Oh yeah, the sessions take forever, the band gets deeper in debt. They >work in an expensive fancy studio (Electic Ladyland) taking way too much >drugs, letting other people work on their dime (Bush Tetra's for ex.) and >then have to tour for years to support the disc. Is it any wonder they >"forgot" what the were about (or was it all just a Berny Rhoades scheme that >they were willing dupes for) and just turned into another rock band who >thought that a stadium gig in front of thousands of stoned teenagers looking >to rock out and get laid would subvert the fabric of American society. They >didn't overturn convention. They wound up reinforcing it. >Steve G. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #164 *******************************