From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #143 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, May 16 2000 Volume 03 : Number 143 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re Leicester City FC ["Wilson, Paul" ] re: DC show; or why such an awful setlist? [Rob Gronotte ] kidney bingos remix (was Wire trade + DC show) [Alan_Platten@ipc.co.uk] RE: Chairs Missing ["webmaster" ] Million Mom March & Second Amendment Sisters ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Americans and Marxism [John Roberts ] Re: Leicester City: a clarification ["Uri Baran" ] Re: Skrewdriver [John Roberts ] re americans and marxism [Alan Gray ] Re: Wire Merch [jAY DEIGNAN ] FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting ["Wilson, Paul" ] Re: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] RE: Americans and Marxism ["giluz" ] Wire, Irving Plaza 5/15/2000 ["Chao, Tom" ] RE: Wire, Irving Plaza 5/15/2000 ["giluz" ] he knows [Comerandy@aol.com] RE: American sport..yeah, I know it's OT.... ["Ciscon, Ray" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:54:20 +0100 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: Re Leicester City FC Well, I'm a bloody Bury FC season ticket holder! The football might not be of a great standard - but it's where I live. (used to support Leeds, when I lived over there - Billy Bremner era). I couldn't care less what team someone supports, as long as they don't go on all the time about supporting a club they've never seen, just because the club in question is massive and wins a lot of trophies. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! Paul KW Come on you Shakers! PS Thanks go to Leicester City - they sold us their old scoreboard a few years ago, for not much money! Cheers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:04:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Rob Gronotte Subject: re: DC show; or why such an awful setlist? What copy? Was I supposed to get something free at the show? If I had, maybe I would have enjoyed it more... Rob Why don't you come up and surf me sometime? --> http://www.patriot.net/users/rob > Date: 15 May 2000 22:18:28 -0500 > From: Jack Steinmann > Subject: re: DC show; or why such an awful setlist? > > Would anyone deeply disappointed in their Wire show please get in touch so they can unload their copy of It's All in the Brochure on me? > > Thank you. > > > Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:22:58 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Death in Vegas AJ, << Yes its a wispy piece of dreck with appearances by every indie guy who ever wanted to hang around Ms Allison... who looks great in pictures, but rather... English... in person ;) >> ..even though she is, in fact, Scottish! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:38:40 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Leicester City: a clarification Stuart, Hey, don't get me wrong - I like the way Martin O'Neill runs Leicester and I think the team has achieved a hell of a lot. As to O'Neill being the best manager in the country - well I have to disagree, though I do like him. Don't be surprised if Man U don't make a bid when Ferguson goes. But you have to admit the team runs on graft and determination - the Robbie Savage/Matt Elliott factor - rather than outright skill. And you put us out of the League cup on the penalty lottery. Which was just as well, as I don't think Leeds were capable of playing another game this season. Harte, Smith and Kelly have all gone straight to hospital for operations as soon as the last whistle went at West Ham... We deserved the Champions League slot a lot more than Liverpool, who basically played 40 games all season, whereas we had runs in all cups and made a European semi-final - well over 60 games - while being the only team to put any pressure on you-know-who all season. And good luck to the Arse tomorrow. Their behaviour towards the Leeds fans before the match after the Galatasaray game was exemplary (even if they did thrash our sorry arses). Mark << There are at least two Leicester City season ticket holders on this list. I am one. In the last four seasons Leicester are one of only 5 teams to finish in the top ten in each season, 2 League Cup wins, 1 runner-up, and playing European football for the 2nd season in three. Even the London based media had started to recognise that we have a talented and hardworking team and of course the best manager in the country, yet it seems that there are still blinkered individuals who have to follow the now clichéd boring boring Leicester tag. Was it being workmanlike and dour that meant Leicester knocked Leeds out of the League Cup two seasons running and put paid to the championship hopes by beating them convincingly and starting the rot that set in thereafter. No, it was being the better side. That said - David O'Leary, top man, and I'm glad Leeds got third place (no little thanks to a certain dour performance by Leicester at Anfield two weeks ago eh?). And all the best to Arsenal in Copenhagen on Wednesday, lister Paul Rabjohn is over there supporting the Gooners. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:07:14 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Washington show report. It was about Gun control/reform. We have this little problem in the US where children settle arguments with ammunition. Now I have Nitzer Ebb's "Join In The Chant" stuck in my head. - -Carl > From: "giluz" > Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:29:37 +0200 > To: "IdealCopy" > Subject: RE: Washington show report. > >> I am just making an observation NOT introducing my politics on the >> list, was that >> there were quite a few people that I spotted from the Wire show >> in the opposition >> group to million mom march on sunday. >> > > What was the million mom march about? > > giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 13:52:37 +0100 From: Alan_Platten@ipc.co.uk Subject: kidney bingos remix (was Wire trade + DC show) "Moshe Imel" wrote: ... i've got that cassette at home somewhere. that mix of 'kidney bingos' is the same one that is on 'coatings'... alanx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:35:21 -0500 From: "webmaster" Subject: RE: Chairs Missing >>Anyone know a decent record store on the net somewhere? I'm embarrassed >>ordering from CDNow or Amazon anyway. why's that? They're both VERY good companies, great selection and great prices. No different that Tower or any other similar. c shop@wiremailorder.com http://wiremailorder.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:44:25 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Million Mom March & Second Amendment Sisters Giluz wrote: > I am just making an observation NOT introducing my politics on the > list, was that > there were quite a few people that I spotted from the Wire show > in the opposition > group to million mom march on sunday. > What was the million mom march about? The Million Mom March was a political rally sponsored by the Clinton administration and the democratic party to demonstrate support for new gun laws that would erode the 2nd Amendment rights that US citizens have to keep and bear arms. The rally was organized by the sister of one of Hillary Clinton's best friends. President Clinton stated that more than 750,000 moms showed up, but more reasoned estimates put the amount at around 100,000 moms. Their emotionally compelling, but intellectually vacant stand would have us think that if firearms were taken away from law abiding citizens, children would be safer. They have no plan for removing the weapons from those criminals who actually carry out the criminal deeds. This is pure liberal fantasy, surpassed only by the infamous 'Visualize World Peace' bumper sticker. The Second Amendment Sisters rally was a counter-demonstration supporting the 2nd Amendment right. This was a spur of the moment gathering that was organized over the last few days. Estimates of Second Amendment Sister attendance was between 5,000 - 10,000 women. The bottom line: Right now in the US, the left side of the political spectrum wants anywhere from additional gun laws and firearm registration, to outright confiscation. The right side wants enforcement of existing gun laws before any additional laws, i.e. 1993's Brady bill added a federally mandated waiting period and background check on all firearm purchases. The Clinton administration loves to proclaim that more than 400,000 illegal firearm purchases were prevented by the Brady bill. Opponents of the Clinton administration like to point out that of those 400,000 attempted illegal purchases, less than 5 prosecutions took place. Why isn't the government arresting and prosecuting people who try to illegally acquire firearms? Thus endeth the poli-sci lesson for today: Ray "Visualize Whirled Peas" Ciscon P.S. I loved the Wire concert in Chicago, and I thought that their stage presence was appropriate and enjoyable... If I want nifty stage patter, I'll go to Las Vegas or Branson and see Tony Orlando or Wayne Newton . I still think that Lewis would make the coolest James Bond villain, and Colin's antics during 12XU were worth the price of admission! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:49:34 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Leicester City: a clarification I'm not much of a soccer (or do you say football?) fan, but I do like what the kids on the 1st place Chicago White Sox have been doing this year! Remember British listmembers... without Cricket, we American's would never have baseball! Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 6:39 AM To: stuart@tudor-rose.co.uk; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Leicester City: a clarification Stuart, Hey, don't get me wrong - I like the way Martin O'Neill runs Leicester and I think the team has achieved a hell of a lot. As to O'Neill being the best manager in the country - well I have to disagree, though I do like him. Don't be surprised if Man U don't make a bid when Ferguson goes. But you have to admit the team runs on graft and determination - the Robbie Savage/Matt Elliott factor - rather than outright skill. And you put us out of the League cup on the penalty lottery. Which was just as well, as I don't think Leeds were capable of playing another game this season. Harte, Smith and Kelly have all gone straight to hospital for operations as soon as the last whistle went at West Ham... We deserved the Champions League slot a lot more than Liverpool, who basically played 40 games all season, whereas we had runs in all cups and made a European semi-final - well over 60 games - while being the only team to put any pressure on you-know-who all season. And good luck to the Arse tomorrow. Their behaviour towards the Leeds fans before the match after the Galatasaray game was exemplary (even if they did thrash our sorry arses). Mark << There are at least two Leicester City season ticket holders on this list. I am one. In the last four seasons Leicester are one of only 5 teams to finish in the top ten in each season, 2 League Cup wins, 1 runner-up, and playing European football for the 2nd season in three. Even the London based media had started to recognise that we have a talented and hardworking team and of course the best manager in the country, yet it seems that there are still blinkered individuals who have to follow the now clichéd boring boring Leicester tag. Was it being workmanlike and dour that meant Leicester knocked Leeds out of the League Cup two seasons running and put paid to the championship hopes by beating them convincingly and starting the rot that set in thereafter. No, it was being the better side. That said - David O'Leary, top man, and I'm glad Leeds got third place (no little thanks to a certain dour performance by Leicester at Anfield two weeks ago eh?). And all the best to Arsenal in Copenhagen on Wednesday, lister Paul Rabjohn is over there supporting the Gooners. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:02:01 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism Couple of more points (this one might run and run...) 1. I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong in enjoying music for music's sake - if such a thing is possible (see your point from Eno). e.g. I don't just listen to Crass (like Tube Disaster 8-) ) - everyone needs something to relax to for christ sakes. > In any case, as Brian Eno once said, ALL music is political. Even > music which encourages consumer surrender or apathy (like > Michael Bolton or Janet Jackson) is political in that it fits in with the > purposes of a certain political order. By contrast, music that > encourages intellectual unrest or dissatisfaction is political too, even > when its texts are not overtly so. Elvis Presley's early records had an > effect on a generation of American youth that was definitely > politically transformational! 2. I'm not saying that Crass were purely responsible for who I am - tho as Mr Disaster acknowledges there *was* an almost Mooniesque ethos to being a *proper* Crass fan. 3. I think that there is a huge problem in writing off any audience in terms of 'consumer surrender'. As you say, it's only history that enables us to perceive any situation wherein there is a consumer and a producer. There is a lot of academic research in this field. Particularly regarding how consumption is regarded as a feminine/passive activity. In actual research people are found to have enormously complex relationships with whatever they're a fan of. Two questions (objective/subjective): how do you explain a young girl's relationship to the Spice Girls? and, what does anyone here's friends think of the fact that they spend their time reading and writing emails to people they've never met in their lives about a band that hadn't made a record in years? I wouldn't imagine anyone here's views on the Spice Girls relationship with their fans is complimentary; and I daresay that most people outside of this list think we're a little bit sad. 8-) 4. I wasn't having a go at Americans re: my comments on Gang of 4 and marxists. I'm just intrigued to know as to why a band that is/was so devoutly marxist can generate such a following in the US (which I read as having a distinctly individualist culture), whereas they failed miserably over here (where there was a significant marxist audience). A lot of it is to do with Greil Marcus in my opinion but this is purely conjecture as I've never been to the States. It seems from our side of the pond that once Marcus starts writing complimentary articles about bands they jump ship to your side of the pond i.e. Mekons. Oh, and I'm *not* a Marxist either. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 15:58:42 +0100 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: Leicester City: a clarification Without Cricket you'd have much less material for taking the piss out of the Brits (of which I am one) - -----Original Message----- From: Ciscon, Ray To: idealcopy@smoe.org Date: 16 May 2000 15:56 Subject: RE: Leicester City: a clarification >I'm not much of a soccer (or do you say football?) fan, but I do like what >the kids on the 1st place Chicago White Sox have been doing this year! >Remember British listmembers... without Cricket, we American's would never >have baseball! >Cheers, > >Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:06:48 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Skrewdriver Can recommend two books if you want to read up on this obnoxious bunch and the neo-nazi skinhead/oi scene: Stewart Home, Cranked Up Really High (Codex) and a book whose authors names I can't remember here but it's published by Searchlight (a London based anti fascist org) and it's called White Noise. If anyone wants to know the authors email me off list and I'll supply the info after I've been home and checked the authors' names. John Roberts ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:11:43 +-100 From: Alan Gray Subject: re americans and marxism Ciscon Ray "McCarthy, more right than wrong" WOW! That would make an interesting song. PS. Are you Sting's manager in disguise? Alan.Gray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 08:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: jAY DEIGNAN Subject: Re: Wire Merch Sorry Dave...I'm not usually one to spread misinformation, but you know I had a couple of beers @ the Gingerbread prior sooooo. yeah you know...I'm still kinda unimpressed. I think if they did the whole shirt in 154 it would have been worth the $15. ~jAY Black T-shirt with light blue vertical rectangle surrounding black/pink vertical squiggle (from the front of 154). "WIRE" in caps above all. All this centered on the front of the shirt. Same as the art on the CD. I'd scan it and post it if I had a website. WARNING: Cheesy ASCII art follows: WIRE _____ | | | | | | | | | | | | ( | | ) | | ( | | ) | | ( | | ) | | ( | | | ------ Your faithful fashion reporter, Steve - ----- Original Message ----- From: jAY DEIGNAN To: Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 10:25 PM Subject: RE: Wire Merch > I believe it was blue with sime kind of vertical > rectangle down the (your) right side. Was the box red > with black text? (I dunno) Nothing on the back. > Cheers > ~jAY > > Jay, you mentioned the t shirt as not being that > impressive. > Can you describe it for me? I have a chance to get > one, > but wanna know what to expect. > thanks. > dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:36:00 +0100 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting The following is what a few of us have arranged for the pre-gig meet-up on Saturday 27th May, at the Garage. Just in case anyone is at all interested. PAUL KW - -----Original Message----- From: Reception [mailto:Reception@uk.greenpeace.org] Sent: 16 May 2000 16:05 To: 'Paul Wilson'; 'Zaj' Subject: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting Hello lads, > > Plans for the pre-Wire gig get together so far:- > The pub is called the Tut and Shive, and it's on Upper Street just > opposite the Union Chapel (enormous churchy thing with a clock sticking > out of it). Meet at 7p.m. the gig starts at 8p.m. (or at least that's when > the doors open. > > Directions:- Come out of Highbury and Islington Station turn right, walk. > When you come to the road crossing at the top of Upper St., do not cross > but keep on the left hand side of the pavement. Look out for The Union > Chapel, on the other side of the road, see that according to the clock you > are about 7 hours late, realise that the clock hasn't worked for years. > Realise that you are standing outside the pub, go inside. Buy Kajuk a > drink (well there's no harm in trying). > > The pub is about 50m (or about 1 minute walk) from H& I tube. > > See you there ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:41:24 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: American sport..yeah, I know it's OT.... Ray, << Remember British listmembers... without Cricket, we American's would never have baseball! >> Not quite...baseball is derived from rounders, which is a girly game. Like basketball (derived from netball). American football is Rugby with helmets and breaks for the TV ads. Actually I quite like baseball. It has the same anal retentive qualities that makes Cricket so compelling.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:48:09 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: RE: Leicester City: a clarification Such is the status of my allegiance to the mighty foxes that I'm also a member of the Blue Army mailing list. Imagine my confusion when rattling thru the hundreds of mails I've had since last week when Leicester City turn up on the Wire list. Now, you're a brave man bringing up the subject of the supposed dour attributes of talented individuals like Ian Marshall and comparing him and players of his uncanny ability with anything Gallagheresque. Whilst I've been pretty reasonable with regards to discussions about politics I will *not* tolerate having my beloved team dissed on the wire list. When Leeds Utd knock us out of a cup then, and *only* then, will this be allowed. 8-) Olivier Dacourt for 8m? You woz robbed mate. John Roberts ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:49:19 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting Right, who's going on Sunday and where, or rather which ale house, shall we rendezvous. Chris. "Wilson, Paul" on 16/05/2000 16:36:00 To: "'Idealcopy Submissions'" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS) Subject: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting The following is what a few of us have arranged for the pre-gig meet-up on Saturday 27th May, at the Garage. Just in case anyone is at all interested. PAUL KW - -----Original Message----- From: Reception [mailto:Reception@uk.greenpeace.org] Sent: 16 May 2000 16:05 To: 'Paul Wilson'; 'Zaj' Subject: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting Hello lads, > > Plans for the pre-Wire gig get together so far:- > The pub is called the Tut and Shive, and it's on Upper Street just > opposite the Union Chapel (enormous churchy thing with a clock sticking > out of it). Meet at 7p.m. the gig starts at 8p.m. (or at least that's when > the doors open. > > Directions:- Come out of Highbury and Islington Station turn right, walk. > When you come to the road crossing at the top of Upper St., do not cross > but keep on the left hand side of the pavement. Look out for The Union > Chapel, on the other side of the road, see that according to the clock you > are about 7 hours late, realise that the clock hasn't worked for years. > Realise that you are standing outside the pub, go inside. Buy Kajuk a > drink (well there's no harm in trying). > > The pub is about 50m (or about 1 minute walk) from H& I tube. > > See you there ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 18:52:00 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism > 4. I wasn't having a go at Americans re: my comments on Gang of 4 and > marxists. I'm just intrigued to know as to why a band that is/was so > devoutly marxist can generate such a following in the US (which I read as > having a distinctly individualist culture), whereas they > failed miserably over here (where there was a significant marxist > audience). A lot of it is to do with Greil Marcus in my > opinion but this is purely conjecture as I've never been to the States. > It seems from our side of the pond that once Marcus starts writing > complimentary articles about bands they jump ship to your side of the > pond i.e. Mekons. Oh, and I'm *not* a Marxist either. > I don't know - I always felt that GO4's marxism had more to do with marxist aesthetics than with marxist politics. That was the main reason that got me to buy their stuff (actually, following a Greil Marcus article...). But lyricswise, they were less politic than the Clash, for example. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:49:44 -0400 From: "Chao, Tom" Subject: Wire, Irving Plaza 5/15/2000 It raged like a motherf*cker. It was a clinic on How To Be The Coolest Band In The World. I'll let more expert Wire fans give the details. I've been reading this digest since the beginning of the tour, so thanks to you I knew exactly what to expect. In fact, one might as well have memorized the setlist and screamed out the names of each song before they played them. Judging from other opinions, I'm glad I caught the end of the short tour, as they seemed to be have nailed down the monolithic grooves. Vocals mixed perfectly--could hear every word. As I suspected the "...Brochure" CD that I bought did not capture the full-on raging but it's okay. They were out of XL shirts so I did not buy one. They looked good, though. Who was that extra guitarist who got up with them during "Drill"? Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 19:07:44 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Wire, Irving Plaza 5/15/2000 > Who was that extra guitarist who got up with them during "Drill"? > Tom I've heard Max's radio show today via the internet, and he said that the crowd was shouting so loud after 12xu that he didn't get the name of that guitarist either. Anyway, I listened to the RFH CD with RealAudio's real crappy quality, which made it sound a bit like Document & Eyewitness, which was nice. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:11:49 EDT From: Comerandy@aol.com Subject: he knows is "he knows" (which the boys played marvelously at irving last night) a new song, or am i temporarily delusional? fill me in, please... preoccupied, andy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:16:54 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: American sport..yeah, I know it's OT.... Mark Bursa wrote: Ray, << Remember British listmembers... without Cricket, we American's would never have baseball! >> Not quite...baseball is derived from rounders, which is a girly game. Like basketball (derived from netball). American football is Rugby with helmets and breaks for the TV ads. Actually I quite like baseball. It has the same anal retentive qualities that makes Cricket so compelling.... Mark, I've never heard of Rounders before and I'm fascinated! Do you have any more information on it, perhaps a website? As for the girly game comment, rounders may be a girly game, but I wouldn't call anyone who stands in the batters box when a 95 MPH fast ball is thrown at you anything but brave! Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:31:35 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: American sport..yeah, I know it's OT.... Ray, << I've never heard of Rounders before and I'm fascinated! Do you have any more information on it, perhaps a website?<< It's mainly played at primary schools in the UK (ie under 11). I remember playing it when I was a kid. Just like baseball, but with sticks for bases. >>As for the girly game comment, rounders may be a girly game, but I wouldn't call anyone who stands in the batters box when a 95 MPH fast ball is thrown at you anything but brave! >> My comment was firmly tongue-in-cheek, and purely designed to wind up Americans! Works every time!!! Cheers, mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:30:10 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: American sport..yeah, I know it's OT.... >Mark Bursa wrote: > >Ray, > ><< Remember British listmembers... without Cricket, we American's would >never > have baseball! >> > >Not quite...baseball is derived from rounders, which is a girly game. Like >basketball (derived from netball). American football is Rugby with helmets >and breaks for the TV ads. > >Actually I quite like baseball. It has the same anal retentive qualities >that >makes Cricket so compelling.... > >Mark, > >I've never heard of Rounders before and I'm fascinated! Do you have any more >information on it, perhaps a website? > >As for the girly game comment, rounders may be a girly game, but I wouldn't >call anyone who stands in the batters box when a 95 MPH fast ball is thrown >at you anything but brave! > >Cheers, > >Ray Quite by coincidence, the book I began reading on my flight home from Chicago devotes quite a bit of space to the cricket/rounders debate on the origins of baseball -- A Clever Base-Ballist: The Life & Times of John Montgomery Ward, by Bryan DiSalvatore. Right now I'm too sleep-dazed to do any summarizing, but will be happy to do so later. Dan, who still hasn't ever been to a major league game (being in Chicago the same day the Cubs played was as close as I've ever gotten) & doesn't really care to, but loves the *numbers* (fantasy baseball geek alert!) & lore (relative in the Hall of Fame alert!) ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:39:53 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Leicester City: a clarification John, No way was I dissing the "mighty" Foxes....simply admiring their workmanlike qualities and the fact that despite not being a 'flair' team they have managed to win two more trophies than Leeds - or most other teams in the league - in recent seasons. And that with a board of directors who look like they want shooting. There's no shame in over-achievement for either Leicester City...or Oasis for that matter. << Such is the status of my allegiance to the mighty foxes that I'm also a member of the Blue Army mailing list. Imagine my confusion when rattling thru the hundreds of mails I've had since last week when Leicester City turn up on the Wire list. Now, you're a brave man bringing up the subject of the supposed dour attributes of talented individuals like Ian Marshall and comparing him and players of his uncanny ability with anything Gallagheresque.Whilst I've been pretty reasonable with regards to discussions about politics I will *not* tolerate having my beloved team dissed on the wire list. When Leeds Utd knock us out of a cup then, and *only* then, will this be allowed. 8-)<< >> Olivier Dacourt for 8m? You woz robbed mate. >> You mean "the new Roy Keane" (c) all sports writers..... Cheers, Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:40:45 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting I'm going to all three nights, so I'm open to offers.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:55:55 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting I'm on Sunday...any suggestions? Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'll leave graffiti where you've never been kissed. - -----Original Message----- From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk To: Wilson, Paul Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Date: 16 May 2000 16:49 Subject: Re: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting > > > >Right, who's going on Sunday and where, or rather which ale house, shall we >rendezvous. > >Chris. > > > > >"Wilson, Paul" on 16/05/2000 16:36:00 > >To: "'Idealcopy Submissions'" >cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS) > >Subject: FW: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting > > > > >The following is what a few of us have arranged for the pre-gig meet-up on >Saturday 27th May, at the Garage. Just in case anyone is at all interested. > >PAUL KW > >-----Original Message----- >From: Reception [mailto:Reception@uk.greenpeace.org] > >Sent: 16 May 2000 16:05 >To: 'Paul Wilson'; 'Zaj' >Subject: Cheeking Tongues - Pre-Wire meeting > >Hello lads, >> >> Plans for the pre-Wire gig get together so far:- >> The pub is called the Tut and Shive, and it's on Upper Street just >> opposite the Union Chapel (enormous churchy thing with a clock sticking >> out of it). Meet at 7p.m. the gig starts at 8p.m. (or at least that's >when >> the doors open. >> >> Directions:- Come out of Highbury and Islington Station turn right, walk. >> When you come to the road crossing at the top of Upper St., do not cross >> but keep on the left hand side of the pavement. Look out for The Union >> Chapel, on the other side of the road, see that according to the clock >you >> are about 7 hours late, realise that the clock hasn't worked for years. >> Realise that you are standing outside the pub, go inside. Buy Kajuk a >> drink (well there's no harm in trying). >> >> The pub is about 50m (or about 1 minute walk) from H& I tube. >> >> See you there > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 11:06:43 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: cranky Boston show review >All of this - not playing audience fabourites and not noticing the audience >is one of the things that makes me love Wire so much. It's also a Wire >trademark. I remember coming back from the RFH gig, when my wife asked me >whether they played The Fly and I said: "god no, The Fly was an almost hit - >they couldn't play that". I have to admit that this art school attitude >could be a bit tedious, but still, this is one of the things Wire's about >(just like not playing old material [he he]). I think the only band I could >compare them to in that respect (and also in lots of others) is the Fall. And yet the Fall, to my knowledge, are playing the latest (very good) singles -- Touch Sensitive & [F]oldin' Money -- these days. Not, mind you, that they're probably esp. recognizable ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:13:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Million Mom March & Second Amendment Sisters On Tue, 16 May 2000, Ciscon, Ray wrote: > I still think that Lewis would make the coolest James Bond villain, and > Colin's antics during 12XU were worth the price of admission! Ray's right about this...and wrong about nearly everything else in his post! I'll be brief: the 2d Amendment begins "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..." The second and third words clearly connote *regulation* - not the unrestricted ownership of every kind of weapon by anyone. And: the NRA purports to emphasize training and safety - such as keeping guns locked up and not loaded. Yet it also claims handguns are to be used for self-protection. Under what scenario would a locked-up, unloaded handgun be of any use in self-protection? Finally: a loaded, accessible weapon only ensures (a) accidents and (b) that the situation during a break-in is now escalated. And who's more likely to be ready and willing to use their weapon...and who's got the drop on the sleepy, scared homeowner? - --Jeff, who was so hoping to stay out of political debates on music lists... J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::I can bellow like a clown school drill instructor:: __Brian Block__ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:22:03 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fwd: RE: [loud-fans] replacements for dead, fallen wire smithery Forwarded from the Loud Family list, where a goodly minority of us idealcopiers reside... later, Miles >Resent-Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 06:39:03 -0700 >From: "David Raposa" >To: "Loud!" >Subject: RE: [loud-fans] replacements for dead, fallen wire smithery >Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 09:47:02 -0400 > >RE: All these crossed Wire (fans)... > >> My opinion of Wire's Chicago show differs... >> So Aaron - I trust you went to Boston? Speak up, man... > >Well, I'm not Aaron, but I was @ the wonderfully posh Roxy for this cultural >event (at least, that's how I classify it in Microsoft Money). A word of >advice, though - regardless of how reliable you think your directions from >the Internet are, always bring a map just in case. (Or, in my case, possess >an unnervingly haphazard sense of direction.) I went from the Prudential >Center / Copley Square exit to nearly entering Brighton back around some >clogged side streets to FINALLY end up @ a place I knew (Boylston St., right >near Tower Records), only to discover after I parked that the Roxy was a >good 30 minute walk away. Anyway... > >I liked the show, but was not entirely impressed by it. Got a kick out of >hearing the "old" songs (I agree with the assessment of "Mercy" and "12XU" >being highlights), and the other stuff they played might make me reassess >all these poo-poo opinions I've heard about post-"154" era Wire. Missed the >opening band, though - heard they weren't that good, either. And their >merchandise table was a bit sparse - they were selling some WMO sampler with >Wire tracks & other side-projects. For $15 dollars. Ouch. And, yes, the >set was a bit short, and oddly workmanlike. But, enjoyable. > >Now, Elliott Smith, yesterday - that's a different story. Whiskey >Biscuit...ehhh. But Elliott played a lot of songs from FIGURE 8 and X/O, >and played them rather well. (I like the live version of "Amity" better >than the recorded one. "Bled White" came out well, also.) One song was >stopped midstream due to sound problems, I guess, but whatever. The encore >was even more wonderful, with a version of Big Star's "Thirteen" and >"Between the Bars" with just Elliott and his guitar. And 4 of his CDs were >available for purchase. For $10. That's more like it. > >Questions? Comments? Bueller? > >Think of a number, >daver. >POP SHOTS - http://popshots.org > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----- >To Unsub: send email to loud-fans-request@loudfans.com with UNSUBSCRIBE in > the subject. >Subscription or other help please email dennis@illusions.com ------------------------------ Date: 16 May 2000 10:00:56 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Million Mom March & Second Amendment Sisters Yikes. UK listers: welcome to the USA. Jack Ciscon, Ray wrote: >intellectually vacant stand would have us >think that if firearms were taken away from law abiding citizens, children >would be safer. They have no plan for removing the weapons from those >criminals ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:36:13 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: FW: FW: Americans and Marxism I'm sending this post on to the list, despite its size, in order to let Ray defend his good name. I tend to play listcop more so with accessibility issues (quoting, html content, etc.) than with content issues, as I enjoy a good freewheeling discussion as much as the next guy -- probably more so than the next guy, actually. But might I suggest the time has come to continue this discussion off-list, as per Ray's fourth paragraph. later, listowner Miles ========================= From: "Ciscon, Ray" To: "'idealcopy@smoe.org'" Subject: FW: Americans and Marxism Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:31:38 -0500 Alan Gray sent me a direct email with his response to one of my earlier posts. I replied personally with a direct email off of the list. Three hours later he sends his original response, sans my original message to the list. You can guess my reaction to this sequence of events. Below is the complete sequence of messages. This is a Wire mailing list. I'm as guilty as any of injecting politics into this mailing list, so I'm going to refrain from political posts in the future, even though I just love a good political fight. If you'd like to continue talking politics, please email me directly. Finally... no, I'm not Sting's manager, though I have played him on TV. :) Sincerely, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** - -----Original Message----- From: Ciscon, Ray Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 9:17 AM To: 'Alan Gray' Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism Alan, Have you read accounts of the Venona papers, or heard the accounts of former KGB leaders? If not, you would best be served looking into it. Speaking from an emotional standpoint, i.e. a kneejerk reaction to a defense of anti-communism, and not an intellectual one can only serve to embarrass yourself. Just because the media elites and Hollywood stars tell you that anti-communists were bad, you must believe them. Do a little thinking for yourself... you'll find that much of what the media elites tell you is a complete lie. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** - -----Original Message----- From: Alan Gray [mailto:alan.gray@twa-group.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2000 8:53 AM To: 'Ciscon, Ray' Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism "McCarthy, more right than wrong" WOW! That would make that would make an interesting song. Best aimed at an Amarican audience, but do not add too many verses or you'll lose their attention. Alan.Gray PS Are you Sting's manager in disguise? - ---------- From: Ciscon, Ray Sent: 12 May 2000 22:52 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism John Roberts wrote: > We American's would never run the Gang of Four out of the country for their > Marxist ideology. The first amendment to our Constitution covers stuff like > that. Well, it was a tongue in cheek comment. I *do* remember Steven Wells, NME journo, relating the fact that he had a particular stamp on his passport when he entered the US because he'd been a member of the Socialist Workers Party. Remember McCarthy? And its no better over here; we've just had a government kick out of its party someone who is popular enough to be mayor of London but is socialist enough to challenge the current regime's policy for the London underground. We're running into one of the 'great divides' between the Americans and British ways of life. British politics are as weird to American's as ours must seem to you. Unless you're an anglophile, you only get BIG political news about England. We've heard a bit out Mr. Livingstone, most of which makes him seem so totally out of touch with reality that it becomes relatively understandable why Labor would toss him out of the party. Another thing about England that just doesn't happen around here was exemplified by an interview of Londoners by an American reporter. The reporter asked a woman who she was going to vote for, and she replied, "Livingstone, because I was raised a socialist". We just don't have very many people being raised socialist in this country. There are a small amount of people who are raised in hardcore democrat or republican households, but for the most part, the genesis of political awareness for American's follows a classic model: Citizen is raised in an environment of political apathy. If Citizen goes to a liberal arts college, he/she tends to become involved with left leaning politics while in school. When the Citizen graduates and enters the work force, their political stances tend to moderate slightly from their college opinions and will generally stay there until something traumatic happens... like getting married and having children, buying a house with a big mortgage, etc... something that jars them into 'complete adulthood'. Once this happens, they often end up moving even farther to the right, sometimes even ending up as, (tongue firmly in cheek) god forbid, republicans. One other British political memory I had was of Neil Kinnock during the 80's... As an American, it wasn't hard to understand why Thatcher and the conservatives kept whipping the labor party's ass in elections when he came up with the idea of disbanding NATO and replacing it with a pipe filled with explosives along the iron curtain. Should the Warsaw Pact decide to invade Western Europe, that pipe filled with explosives would be blown up, stopping those evil communists in their path. When I first heard this 'cunning plan', I almost busted a blood vessel I laughed so hard! And as far as McCarthy goes, yes I remember him. He was a drunk and a not very good senator, but if you read the Venona papers and other accounts from former Soviet agents in retrospect he was more right than wrong. Something the liberal media elite in this country will never admit to. The Venona papers confirmed that American and British based communist and socialist organizations were bankrolled and in many cases outright controlled from KGB headquarters in Moscow. That might explain why Mr. Wells had his 'special' passport stamp. > > Sadly, most American's are thoroughly and completely unaware of the > political content of music. If it's got a good beat and you can dance to it, > or if it 'ROCKS' (said with full and complete sarcasm), it might be a big > hit, even if it's just a musical adaptation of 'The Internationale'. Well, I think 'politicial content of music' is a rather vague undefineable thing myself. Take an extreme example; Skrewdriver release records with the most infantile, reactionary racist lyrics imaginable but cover Lynyrd Skynyrd's Sweet Home Alabama, play what is by definition of its form something historically specific to not only the US, but the black US i.e. rawk n roll. Crass may have politcally progressive lyrics but I would imagine there are a few out there who think that their music is reactionary. I've never heard any of Skrewdriver's music, but if the lyrics were so horrible as to distract from the music, I can say I probably wouldn't like them. Dan mentioned Ted Nugent as another example of a producer of right-wing political music. I can't remember any of his lyrics dealing with any political issues... most of his songs concern his quest for female companionship, i.e. 'WangoTango'. Also, I don't buy into the concept of instrumental music being at all political. You may listen to a piece of music and apply labels such as 'progressive'... I apply less politically charged phrases such as 'experimental', i.e. Kraftwerk's 'Autobahn' has no lyrics and I would accept it as experimental music... If 'Radio-Activity' was an instrumental I would call it experimental, but it has lyrics that take a stand on nuclear power, making it a 'political' political work. I may not agree with their stand on nuclear power, but I enjoy the music in 'Radio-Activity' so I ignore the political content. If the music were bad, along with political lyrics I don't agree with would mean that I wouldn't much care for it. The last hit song in American that I can remember coming even close to having a right-wing political message in it was 'Get Over It' by the Eagles from a few years ago. Just like political songs from the left, the vast majority of Americans ignored it's political message. For my tastes, good music can overcome bad lyrics, but I've never seen a case where good lyrics make up for horrible music. > I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political dogma > in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost universally > left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got their > political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question their > sanity. I must admit that I would not be the same person - vegetarian, doing a PhD on governmentality and reading practices, annoying people on mailing lists - had I not listened to a lot of Crass et al records as a youngster. (And I'm 33 next month.) But as I say this is obviously not the same for anyone who has ever listened to Crass. I must admit that my choice of musical tastes have had absolutely no effect on what I am today, a meat eating libertarian who's a LAN/WAN professional with a B.S. degree in computer science, a wife, a dog, a house in the suburbs, hopefully a child on the way soon, who really likes Wire. The major influences on my moral, ethical, and political stances have been what I've read, what I've seen, and what I've experienced. Pop music just doesn't have the same 'throughput' that those other forms of media has to influence my political thoughts. > I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them are no > smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional enjoyment Well, you have to ask what is it about music that makes people *expect* pop musicians to change the world or be politically astute.> The only thing I can think that would make people think that pop musicians could change the world would be complete ignorance of reality and the way things work in the world. The pen is mightier than the sword, not the guitar. > Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, Rage > Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates who > never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated themselves > to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the masses. > Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 Rage > Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between Communism, > Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. I don't know if any of us can any more. Governmentality exists in such an insidious form nowadays. I won't bang on about Foucault on a music list tho. I do agree with you that Government is insidious, and the bigger and more centralized government gets, the more insidious it becomes. I've read Foucault, and his concepts of political theory have absolutely no connection to any reality I've seen. > > We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish t-shirts > would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one with Che' > on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage > Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to be > cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... they > 'rocked', and that was enough for him. Well, to return to the Crass example, I remember buying a Campaign For Nuclear Disarmament badge as a youngster because I knew of it s general message i.e. it had something to do with pacificism and I'd seen the logo on the sleeves of crass records. OK, it *was* naive but when a teacher picked me up on it at school and started interrogating me as to my politics - which as I'm older and wiser now I realise was basically ideological bullying - it made me (a) determined to find out precisely what the badge represented and (b) think more about politics etc. Who knows? Your intern might well lead the glorious revolution one day 8-) Joe the intern won't be leading any revolutions... he'll eventually drop out of enough colleges that his well-off parents will just give him a job in their business. > Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... but I'm > glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a > definite appeal for me! The first album and the peel session album are the only ones worth having in my opinion. One of Go4's drummers ended up playing for and being a minder for topless model/pop star (those of you in the States will probably have no context in which to place this person) Samantha Fox. I've written pretty frankly about my opinions here, and I mean to offend no one. There are large political divides between many people. If I've made you angry with something I said, please know that I was not making personal attacks, just stating my opinion. Getting off of my soapbox, Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #143 *******************************