From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #138 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, May 14 2000 Volume 03 : Number 138 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Kinnock's list debut? ["ian barrett" ] au revoir ["Michel Faber" ] Re: a chicago drill ["Laurel G" ] Yet Another Chicago Show Review ["Steve Loubert" ] Re: Seam [Patrick Shaw ] Seam ["D.T. Viecelli" ] Re: bigboys [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: wire in boston / its all in the brochure [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey <] Re: Seam ["Laurel G" ] Re: Seam ["stephen graziano" ] Boston [Joe Turner ] the boston opening band [Rain19c@aol.com] It's a Long Way to Chicago ["Steve Loubert" ] Re: the boston opening band [Joe Turner ] FAO Mark - re: manicured noise ["Laurel G" ] Re: Seam ["D.T. Viecelli" ] Re: Seam [Rob Warnock ] Re: Seam ["tube disaster" ] Re: Seam ["tube disaster" ] Re: Seam [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: Go4/irving plaza [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] re: ideal mailing list [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 09:45:11 +0100 From: "ian barrett" Subject: Re: Kinnock's list debut? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Ciscon, Ray > One other British political memory I had was of Neil Kinnock during the > 80's... As an American, it wasn't hard to understand why Thatcher and the > conservatives kept whipping the labor party's ass in elections when he came > up with the idea of disbanding NATO and replacing it with a pipe filled with > explosives along the iron curtain. Should the Warsaw Pact decide to invade > Western Europe, that pipe filled with explosives would be blown up, stopping > those evil communists in their path. When I first heard this 'cunning plan', > I almost busted a blood vessel I laughed so hard! > Ray - where did you here about this? National Enquirer? Ian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 09:59:21 +0100 From: "Michel Faber" Subject: au revoir Dear Miles, In recent weeks, I've been receiving from fifty to a hundred idealcopy emails a day. Just reading them takes an age, let alone when I'm motivated to write one of my characteristic essays in reply. Regrettably, I just don't have the time just now, as I have a publishing deadline for my next novel. Also, I dread the prospect of going away for a week and coming back to find five hundred emails banked up. So, please unsubscribe me from the list. My best wishes to all the Wire fans out there. Yes, all of you - the avant-garde European soulmates and the Cheap Trick-lovin' Yanks who just wanna raahhk, the intense discussers of Wire's ideological ethos and the desperate searchers after T-shirts, the balding old men who saw Wire in 1977 and the perky young girls who discovered Wire on an internet video the day before yesterday... Au revoir, all. Michel Faber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 08:47:44 CDT From: "Laurel G" Subject: Re: a chicago drill > >a tad late to the post , but my impressions follow: > >hilights: 40 versions!, advantage in height, drill, lowdown (once), = >boiling boy the sound in general - and the vantage - even with a = >fellow who must have been close to 7 foot near the front, most of the = >stage was visible Dan and I were wondering about that - I generally go balcony nowadays - he's usually a right there at the stage guy, but stayed topside this time - I think he especially was wondering if you could see Colin doing the swim thing from there >lolights: colin's equipment difficulties upon hitting the stage > a few rocky moments in pink flag and one other song = >which were all the more noticable given the overall tightness of wire as = >a unit did you hear the thing about "would be nice if I gave everyone a set list before we tried to play?" - it's becomming a blur, but wasn't that during the Wire set? Laurel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 10:16:53 -0500 From: "Steve Loubert" Subject: Yet Another Chicago Show Review Better late than never . . . My travel arrangements caused me to get to the Metro at about 10, and the floor was already pretty well packed. I got myself a drink and worked my way up to a reasonably close location on the left side. First of all, I liked Seam. Never heard 'em before, but I tend to like droney shoegazer stuff, and they did that fairly well. Wire KICKED ASS. Just like that. Their set was powerful, muscular, intense, with none of the mugging and playing to the crowd that you might expect from a geezer reunion. The care they took to choose songs that they could play with conviction has really paid off. The sound is strong and full, better than any of the live recordings I've heard, which always sounded a little thin to me, and better than my recollection of the times I saw them in the 80's. I really hope they find a way to write and record new songs in this style. If you are undecided about going, make up your mind and find a way to get to a show. Random Observations: Graham, still quite possibly the coolest man alive, set the tone with his unrelenting intensity. Colin gave away most of the songs by playing a little of his part before the song began. Bruce looked fine, not old or out of shape at all. Robert's play was solid and tight. I love the way his minimalist approach never gets in the way of the music. Biggest disappointment: The crowd. I suppose most of the old fans (like me) are just that: old. And maybe the younger ones in the crowd were merely curious, and not that into Wire. Nevertheless, I can't understand how a roomful of music fans, exposed to this overwhelming rhythmic assault, could just stand there watching, as if they were at an art gallery looking at a painting. Sure, there was a fair amount of head-bobbing going on, and even a little bouncing during "12XU", but all in all, pretty reserved. After the show, I went up and down the stairs three times looking for the merchandise, and almost left before I found it. Best Wire T-shirt ever! The CD is ok, but doesn't really sound like the show I saw. Anyway, I guess I liked it. Yet another Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:16:36 -0400 From: Patrick Shaw Subject: Re: Seam I thought Seam had some pretty good guitar licks... tube disaster wrote: > anyway, the opening band was quite interesting, during one song > >they had this guy with his face mummified reading from some ghastly text. > > Sounds like Boston made out far better in the opening-band department, then. > (Speaking of which, did *anybody* like Seam in Chicago? I've already > described how dull I found them, & everyone who's mentioned them has said > pretty much the same ... such apparent unanimity on this list would seem > pretty atypical.) Who were these guys? Your description of that one song is > fascinating -- like something Lovecraft would've written in Nyarlothotep, > maybe. > > Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:32:49 -0500 From: "D.T. Viecelli" Subject: Seam I liked Seam. To be absolutely aboveboard here, I will reveal myself as the agent for both Wire and Seam. My only comment to this list on this subject is that the apparent unanimity of opinions on Seam coming from people previously unfamiliar with them and complaining about the length of their songs and set indicates a very routine syndrome often seen when older music fans attend long-awaited shows by artists they hold in high esteem. All said fans care about is that the unknown artists get off the stage so they can get what that for which they paid and came. It is rare that any opening band can overcome such a predisposition to negativity and it's why it's generally a bad idea for anyone to accept an opening slot for bands like Aerosmith, Plant and Page, and the Eagles. It is difficult to argue that this is not precisely Seam's fate here when such an accomplished band with an international fanbase for their intelligent and introspective music is dismissed so roundly by another band's audience, many of whom were so ignorant (while no doubt considering themselves quite cerebral and mature) as to yell criticisms at Seam between songs, exactly as you would expect to hear at concerts by the above-mentioned dinosaur acts. Best Regards, David T. Viecelli (Boche Billions) President THE BILLIONS CORPORATION 833 W. Chicago Ave., ste. 101 Chicago, IL 60622-5497 tel: 312-997-9999 fax: 312-997-2287 web: www.billions.com and introducing: BILLIONS AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 11:55:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: bigboys On Fri, 12 May 2000, Carl Archer wrote: > Whoa there. How did the Minutemen copy Wire? The only thing the two bands > have in common (IMHO) are the <2 minute songs with abrupt endings. > > From: Jim Dingus > > Ahhhh...the Big Boys, who copied the Minutemen, who copied Wire (to a degree). > > From beginning to back again. I think the key phrase here is "to a degree." I'm sure Watt, Hurley, and (if he could) Boon would enthusiastically acknowledge the inspiration of Wire on their music. In addition to songs that stop when they're done (as opposed to going on because songs "have to" be 3 minutes), I'd point to a couple of other influences: lyrics that are often abstract and on topics far removed from both typical pop and typical punk subjects; a certain spikiness in arrangement (of course the Minutemen were influenced only by the first version of Wire); and a willingness to trash barriers limiting what sorts of sounds are "appropriate" to the genre each band was supposedly a part of (punk, hardcore). _154_ certainly sounds unlike what anyone would have expected from a so-called punk band, and the Minutemen incorporated elements of avant-jazz into their arrangements, being one of the earlier SST hardcore bands to explode the hardfast confines. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::PLEASE! You are sending cheese information to me. I don't want it. ::I have no goats or cows or any other milk producing animal! __"raus"__ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:06:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: wire in boston / its all in the brochure On Sat, 13 May 2000, tube disaster wrote: > (Speaking of which, did *anybody* like Seam in Chicago? I've already > described how dull I found them, & everyone who's mentioned them has said > pretty much the same ... such apparent unanimity on this list would seem > pretty atypical.) Uh...actually, I liked them. I agree they played too long for an opening act (esp. since I walked in after their set had begun), but what *I* found interesting is the varying descriptions of Seam different listmembers have offered. I found that even though most songs would begin as fairly typical examples of [.], they'd evolve and become more interesting than typical [.] as they went on. But then, I'm generally a fan of American indie rock (which it seems most folks here aren't), so this isn't too surprising. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::Let's quit talking about it and start watching it on TV:: __Susan Lowry__ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 13:16:12 CDT From: "Laurel G" Subject: Re: Seam > >David T. Viecelli (Boche Billions) > You have a point about being an opening band - no, it's not entirely fair to them - however, if you don't like a band you're entitled to say so - I myself am more into slammin punk, so they weren't to my taste - as I noted on another list, their musical ability was without question, it just isn't my taste in music - and I know you have to make generalized statements in a thing like this or else we could be here talking all day about it - but I have to say I don't fit the generalization - I judge each band on their own merits - there are times I've raved about the opening band and not been too happy with the headliner, in fact left before the headliner even finished oft times an opening band is what gets the crowd going for the headliner, pumps them up - puts them in the mood - I'm sorry, but from my vantage point at the railing in the balcony, same section you were in, although I was center stage rather than stage right, the crowd was stood like statues during Seam - not exactly what I'd call gearing them up for the headliner I appreciate your support of your band - exactly what I'd expect in you to do in your position, and respect you for doing it Laurel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:49:39 EDT From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: Seam yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but Seam have been around for 10 years, and if as you say, they are still unknown, what does that say about the history of audience response to them? - Steve G. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:41:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Turner Subject: Boston I must admit up front that knowing the order of the set in advance kind of ruined some of the surprise. That aside, it was quite good. They arrived a bit late and had some initial soundcheck-type troubles, but that didn't seem to faze the band at all. I still thought the '87 Boston show was much much better, even with click-tracks for Robert and keyboards for Graham. Last night seemed a bit perfunctory at times, although the fact that they could 'jam out' a little, rather than be a slave to the sequencers, was quite thrilling. /j ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:30:21 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: the boston opening band >>anyway, the opening band was quite interesting, during one song >>they had this guy with his face mummified reading from some ghastly text. > Sounds like Boston made out far better in the opening-band department, then. > (Speaking of which, did *anybody* like Seam in Chicago? I've already > described how dull I found them, & everyone who's mentioned them has said > pretty much the same ... such apparent unanimity on this list would seem > pretty atypical.) Who were these guys? Your description of that one song is > fascinating -- like something Lovecraft would've written in Nyarlothotep, > maybe. i dont know what they were called but i heard they were henry's something. they didnt talk much during their set. they used a lot of wire esque sounds and guitar effects during their long jams. lots of keyboard bleeps here and there and some guy play some atonal trumpet now and then. the mummy guy was the high point, heh. the singer was constantly spazzing out, dancing and jumping around. reminded me of the talking heads singer for some reason. anyway, they were better than your average guitar/drum/bass band. mike. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:34:53 -0500 From: "Steve Loubert" Subject: It's a Long Way to Chicago I flew in from Minneapolis, too late to meet up with listers, I'm afraid. - ----- Original Message ----- From: tube disaster > > Most of the listmembers who I saw were Chicago-area residents ... offhand, I > know of only 2 of us who flew in from elsewhere, though I strongly suspect > there were others. > > Dan > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:43:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Turner Subject: Re: the boston opening band On Sat, 13 May 2000 Rain19c@aol.com wrote: > >>anyway, the opening band was quite interesting, during one song > >>they had this guy with his face mummified reading from some ghastly text. I missed the opening band, but it was Peter Prescott's "Peer Group", which (if the rumours turned out to be true) featured Prescott's Mission of Burma exbandmates Roger Miller and Chris Connelly. Again, I missed them, so this was just the scuttlebutt. /j ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 17:14:16 CDT From: "Laurel G" Subject: FAO Mark - re: manicured noise Dan already answered the question about the singles - but you asked about the female rhythm section and sax player Stephanie Nuttall played drums, Jody Taylor played bass, Pete Bannister played clarinet and then sax, Steve Walsh played guitar, and Gavin (of the green hair in '77), one of the founders of the band did vocals/lyrics Pete and Jody married and were last heard of living in Rochdale - Stephanie played for a stadium rock band in Argentina in '82 and did session work in the 80s - last heard of Gavin doing journalism in New York - Steve has apparently disappeared off the face of the earth - one of their early guitarists was Jeff Noon, now a noted SF writer The amazing thing to me about this whole thing is that apparently Wire had never heard Manicured Noise play when they agreed to let them support them - and according to Graham the other night, the first time they played with them, they couldn't believe what they heard - I think he was being complimentary - also, at that show it's possible the third band was The Frantic Elevators, fronted by a very young Mick Hucknall (sp?) Laurel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 19:01:40 -0500 From: "D.T. Viecelli" Subject: Re: Seam At 02:49 PM 05/13/2000 -0400, you wrote: >yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but Seam have been around for 10 >years, and if as you say, they are still unknown, what does that say about >the history of audience response to them? I don't even know how to begin to respond to that one. Leaving aside the important fact that I stated that Seam were obviously unknown to members of that specific Wire audience and not people in general, do you assert that all good bands are popular and that lesser-known bands suffer that fate solely due to their perceived lack of quality? If you're actually prepared to make that argument, you have an awful lot to learn. I guess Wire can't be much of a band good since they failed to sell out even a venue as small as Metro after ten years away. Best Regards, David T. Viecelli (Boche Billions) President THE BILLIONS CORPORATION 833 W. Chicago Ave., ste. 101 Chicago, IL 60622-5497 tel: 312-997-9999 fax: 312-997-2287 web: www.billions.com and introducing: BILLIONS AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:42:03 -0500 From: Rob Warnock Subject: Re: Seam D.T. Viecelli wrote: > > I liked Seam. To be absolutely aboveboard here, I will reveal myself as > the agent for both Wire and Seam. My only comment to this list on this > subject is that the apparent unanimity of opinions on Seam coming from > people previously unfamiliar with them and complaining about the length of > their songs and set indicates a very routine syndrome often seen when older > music fans attend long-awaited shows by artists they hold in high esteem. > All said fans care about is that the unknown artists get off the stage so > they can get what that for which they paid and came. It is rare that any > opening band can overcome such a predisposition to negativity and it's why > it's generally a bad idea for anyone to accept an opening slot for bands > like Aerosmith, Plant and Page, and the Eagles. It is difficult to argue > that this is not precisely Seam's fate here when such an accomplished band > with an international fanbase for their intelligent and introspective music > is dismissed so roundly by another band's audience, many of whom were so > ignorant (while no doubt considering themselves quite cerebral and mature) > as to yell criticisms at Seam between songs, exactly as you would expect to > hear at concerts by the above-mentioned dinosaur acts. > > Best Regards, > > David T. Viecelli (Boche Billions) > >In a previous post I had said that I wasn't all that crazy about Seam's set at the Metro. Does that mean I thought they were untalented? No. I was expressing an opinion. Does the fact that I didn't neccesarily like them make me old, ignorant, or unimaginative? I would hope not. I have been to a number of shows where I thought the opening band were as good, if not better than the headlining band. This wasn't one of those times. But then again, that is only my opinion. When I'm exposed to new music I like to try and keep an open mind. I hardly think I would be listening to Wire in the first place if that weren't the case. I guess when people were making negative comments about Recoil (whom I happen to like) the other day, I should have said those people were ignorant and/or unimaginative since their opinions didn't coincide with mine. If you want to look at it from another perspective, there were several people behind me at the show who arrived during Seam's last song. They were disappointed because they had come to see Seam, and not Wire. They said all the flyers and ads had Wire listed first, so they thought that meant they were going to play first. They were also upset because they weren't able to use their fake ID's to get beer. Needless to say, they weren't that impressed with Wire. Given those facts, I could easily say that the younger people at the show were ignorant because they had no idea how bands are billed. I could also say they only went to the show to get drunk, and that they were totally clueless, and had no sense of history since they were totally blasé about seeing one of the most influential bands ever. However, if I did say that I would be basing that statement on my own preconceptions and the possibly unrepresentative comments of a just a few people. That would be a fairly sweeping generalization-not to mention a huge leap in logic-for me to make. - -Rob- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:18:25 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Seam >At 02:49 PM 05/13/2000 -0400, you wrote: >>yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but Seam have been around for 10 >>years, and if as you say, they are still unknown, what does that say about >>the history of audience response to them? > >I don't even know how to begin to respond to that one. Leaving aside the >important fact that I stated that Seam were obviously unknown to members of >that specific Wire audience and not people in general, Let me note again for the record that I mentioned beforehand having seen 'em in either 11/93 or 7/94 opening for the Mekons in Memphis, at which time they made no real impression on me -- not good, not bad. Which is pretty much what happened Wed night -- as noted, I'm just not into "dreampop"/shoegaze-inspired stuff, which is what they sounded like to me. That doesn't make them good, bad, or indifferent, just not my cup of tea. When I got back home, I told a friend of mine who *does* dote on such things that he probably would've liked them pretty well. And I respect his taste as much as I do my own, even though we part ways on any number of things, from trip-hop [he's into it ... I don't see what the big deal to Type O Negative [I think they're great ... he thinks I'm insane] to Yo La Tengo [he thinks they're the best band on the planet ... I think that, while they do some very nice things -- including that sumptuous cover of Too Late -- a large part of what they're doing amounts to little more than covering late-'80s Sonic Youth]. do you assert that >all good bands are popular and that lesser-known bands suffer that fate >solely due to their perceived lack of quality? If you're actually prepared >to make that argument, you have an awful lot to learn. I guess Wire can't >be much of a band good since they failed to sell out even a venue as small >as Metro after ten years away. I *did* choke at the statement you're responding to there, & can only assume that it was misphrased. Wire, who as I've noted have been huge favorites of mine since I first bought Pink Flag in 5/78, is a phenomenally obscure band, esp. considering the influence they've wielded over the years. Three of my co-workers at the newspaper, all about my age (40), have fairly hip tastes compared to the general public (one's favorite albums includes Can't Stand the Rezillos & Radios Appear, another at least knows who Howard Devoto was), & yet each barely knew Wire by name, much less anything about the music. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 20:33:09 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Seam >I liked Seam. To be absolutely aboveboard here, I will reveal myself as >the agent for both Wire and Seam. My only comment to this list on this >subject is that the apparent unanimity of opinions on Seam coming from >people previously unfamiliar with them and complaining about the length of >their songs and set indicates a very routine syndrome often seen when older >music fans attend long-awaited shows by artists they hold in high esteem. >All said fans care about is that the unknown artists get off the stage so >they can get what that for which they paid and came. It is rare that any >opening band can overcome such a predisposition to Certainly an over-generalization, but as Laurel has noted those are useful & even necessary in such discussions, so what the heck. Actually, I've been on the *other* side -- & so has Laurel -- of the debate regarding a show last November at none other than the Metro a mere 6 months ago. She & I were *very* pleasantly surprised by the Lunachicks (& had no problem at all with Down By Law) as openers for the Buzzcocks, & said as much on the latter band's list, & then nearly saw a list war break out because so many other longtime fans (& a few others who've been *alive* only about as long as we've been into punk) thought they were godawful. *My* perspective, of course, was that those guys were succumbing to the syndrome you describe above -- not *me*, though, & I seriously doubt that either Laurel or I have somehow gone over to "the other side" in a mere half-year. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:53:30 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Seam On Sat, 13 May 2000, stephen graziano wrote: > yeah, yeah, that's all well and good, but Seam have been around for 10 > years, and if as you say, they are still unknown, what does that say about > the history of audience response to them? - Steve G. I suspect that Seam has actually sold more records in the US than Wire has. They have a sterling reputation and are a well-established act, regardless of whether you've heard of them or not. But popularity is irrelevant to musical quality - as anyone here should surely know. You don't notice Wire ruling the charts, do you? I took David Viecelli's post to be saying not "you're ignorant if you don't like all the bands I book" but "it's a shame so many people are rude and closed-minded toward a band just because they're opening for their favorite band." He mentioned that some people in the audience were yelling things at Seam. I'd tend to agree - you don't like the opening band? Go to the bar and have a drink. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::SCENE 2: ::Aunt Fritzi applies lipstick in the mirror. In the next room, Sluggo ::removes his ever-present cap and blows his nose in a red handkerchief. ::Nancy enters the room and accuses Sluggo of stealing the donuts that ::Aunt Fritzi made for her. Sluggo looks at the clock, which reads 8:54, ::and says he'd better hurry or he'll be late for his trombone lesson. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:12:28 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: Go4/irving plaza In a message dated 5/12/0 9:57:56 AM, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: >'What we all want' - and 'Paralysed' those two songs are worth twice the price of the album. i think dirty looks opened for gang of 4 the first time i saw them. not sure, but go4 were great! - -paul p.s. who will be at irving plaza monday night? i'll be the guy with the grinning apple on his t-shirt. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:24:31 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: re: ideal mailing list here is some news i thought you'd all appreciate knowing... i had exactly 154 emails in my inbox today, no more, no less. how about that?! - -paul ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #138 *******************************