From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #137 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, May 13 2000 Volume 03 : Number 137 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Americans and Marxism ["tube disaster" ] Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago [Rob Warnock ] Re: Americans and Marxism ["tube disaster" ] Re: bigboys [Carl Archer ] wire in boston / its all in the brochure [Rain19c@aol.com] a chicago drill ["MackDaddyD" ] Re: Wire at the Metro [Miles Goosens ] RE: Americans and Marxism ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Wire in Chicago (sort of long) [OptionsR@aol.com] Re: wire in boston / its all in the brochure ["tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism >Ray, > ><< I've not heard of Skrewdriver, but if they're 'heavy metal' like Mr. >Nugent, I'll pass on it. >> > >Far from it. Actually Skrewdriver were quite a good 1977 punk band until it >emerged the singer was, basically a Nazi. Their first album and first two >singles were pretty good 100mph, nihilistic punk records. Indeed. I'm not esp. proud to own All Skrewed Up, considering what they devolved into later, but at least they or the National Front never saw a dime of mine, since my copy -- still shrinkwrapped, yet -- came from the store near my house for maybe $3 circa '92. You're So Dumb, Anti-Social & Government Action are sterling examples of aggressive '77 punk (one of 'em isn't on the LP, but I can't remember which ... at any rate, I've got it on the Chiswick Long Shots, Dead Certs & Odds-On Favourites comp). Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:54:12 -0500 From: Rob Warnock Subject: Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago VoxxJaguar@aol.com wrote: > > > Hello All, > My name is Dave. I'm new to the list. I live in > Evanston, just north of Chicago. Grew up in the area. > 34 years old. First heard Wire on 120 minutes c.87(?)... > Eardrum Buzz...(proud to say that I simply liked the band > from hearing(seeing) it, without being tainted or influenced > by critics. ...I had no prior knowledge of the group. > That's all I heard for a while.... > Then in '95 my roommate had "On The Returning" > and I finally got hooked. Then picked up the first 3 on > on Restless Retro. > Can anyone post the setlist from Tuesday's show? > I jotted down several of the songs I knew, but there > were a few I didn't know. > Also, I didn't see ANY merchandise at the show. > Did I miss it? If so, is it still attainable? > (3rd Day?/All in Brochure?/tourshirt?) > I did check out Colin's DJ'ing at the Smart Bar > afterwards. The Hawkwind remix WAS great. > (triumphantly raising his arms at the end) > & I liked how he occaisionally played rocknroll > with dance floor responding. It was great to see > him bopping around in the booth; it's obvious > he truly enjoys it. > Let me know if there are others here that > live in the Chicago area. I have a hard time finding > (local) friends that have decent taste in music. > The ones I do have are in London or NYC. > > Dave > I've decided to delurk after hanging out here for a couple weeks. I actually came upon Wire in similar circumstances. I grew up around Chicago, and now live in Andersonville. I had seen the video for "Ahead" on 120 Minutes, and used to hear "Drill", "Ahead" and "Point of Collapse" at the club (950) I was frequenting at the time. Shortly after getting "Ideal Copy" I picked up import copies of the first three albums on CD at the late, lamented Wax Trax! Naturally the domestic, remastered versions came out shortly after that. I thoroughly enjoyed the show on Wed. Having only had the chance to see them once before, I never thought I'd have the opportunity again. Especially to hear them play stuff like "12XU" and "Another the Letter". I'm glad to see most people had the same opinion about Seam as I did. I thought they started out OK, but their set, and their songs were WAY too long. - -Rob- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:53:03 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism > >Dan, I don't want to get into a spitting match with you because I've met you >and you are an exceedingly nice guy... but I've got to respond to some of >your statements. I would hope that we can disagree without, as you say, "get[ting] into a spitting match," & I'd like to think that's what we've done. > >>I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political dogma >>in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost universally >>left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got their >>political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question their >>sanity. > >And after I said I'd refuse to discuss politics *sigh* ... I'm glad this >subject didn't come up at the table last night -- bad enough that I learned >that all the rest of you grew up as Styx fanatics. > >Charles & I stated that we 'were' Styx fans while we were growing up... I >can't vouch for Charles, but I don't own a single Styx recording now... I >remember you naming some bands you admired as a wee one, but out of >politeness, I won't name names... :) Oh, I'm willing to cop to every single one of them (not that I remember which particular ones I might've named), & like as not I *do* own something(s) by them. You're talking to a guy, after all, who's spoken up for country music & disco on the punk77 list, Lynyrd Skynyrd on the Big Takeover list, Creedence on those 2 lists & the Buzzcocks list besides, etc. As for your & Charles' youthful Styx fandom, I hope it's clear (apparently it wasn't ...) that I was merely teasing, *especially* considering some of the youthful discretions of my own that, as noted, I fully acknowledge -- it's that damned bottomless pop sweet tooth that I was apparently born with. But anyway, semantically speaking, I don't see any difference between my saying that you guys "grew up as Styx fanatics" & your responding that y'all (I'm allowed to use that contraction, I hope, as a Southerner born & bred) " 'were' Styx fans while we were growing up." >Anyway, when the subject has come up on other lists I've noted that I don't >*expect* political content (agreeable to me or otherwise) in music, but when >I get it, it's like icing on the cake. That includes the Go4, Billy Bragg, >Easterhouse, Redskins, Clash, Chumbawamba, Consolidated, Alabama 3, the Dils >& the anarchopunk hordes of yesteryear. (And yes, they *do* tend to be >"almost universally left-wing." If you want the opposing viewpoint, be my >guest & go listen to Ted Nugent & Skrewdriver till your ears bleed. Me, I'll >stick with stuff that sounds halfway decent.) > >I listen to, or have listened to Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, the Clash, >Chumbawamba and I wouldn't rate any of them as being amongst my favorite >music, regardless of the political stance taken. I've not heard of >Skrewdriver, but if they're 'heavy metal' like Mr. Nugent, I'll pass on it. >Of all of the artists you've listed, I own recordings by Easterhouse, and >the Clash. In both cases the music I like outweighs the political dogma. If >it's a great song but the lyrics are sheer political propaganda, I can >ignore the lyrics and still enjoy the song. But I have to tell you that >left-wing propaganda + bad music = a quick headache! That paragraph doesn't say a thing that I disagree with, & for that matter I'm not sure it says a whole lot that I didn't at least imply in my own paragraph ... & rest assured that I'm not saying you merely repeated what I said (because you didn't), but instead am saying that despite our different perspectives, we agree pretty closely on this. (Except that I don't find left-wing propaganda particularly objectionable ... it's the bad music that's going to cause *my* quick headache, & that I have no real interest in getting past!) > >> >>Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, Rage >>Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates who >>never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated themselves >>to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the >masses. >>Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 Rage >>Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between >Communism, >>Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. > >I have no problem with RATM, other than the fact that I don't find their >music very interesting. And while I've never had any great admiration for >the ruling class or even the bourgeoisie, if indeed they're all "well off >young college graduates" (probably not completely accurate, judging from the >little I've read) I can't see how that that would automatically disqualify >them from finding fault -- even on a CD! -- with the system now in place. >Too, probably "95 out of 100 registered voters couldn't tell you the >difference between Communism, Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of >government," so I'm not really sure what your point is. > > >From the information I've read about Rage Against the Machine, they're all >the product of upper-middle to upper class families who are out to 'educate' >the 'great unwashed' about the evils of a capitalist system... I learned a >word for this back in Psych 101, it's called self-loathing, and it's endemic >amongst our population, especially those on the left of the political >spectrum. Again, not that it matters (to me ... it does to you, apparently, & that's fine), but I think that at least a couple of them have somewhat humbler backgrounds than that. Anyway, I don't doubt for a moment the point you make about "self-loathing," but not having retained a whole lot from Psyc 101 (hey, I got an A, so I was happy) I have no idea of whether it applies to people who hold those or similar views but happen to be of less privileged origins (me, for instance -- not to play the poverty card, but I'm the only person in my family to ever earn a salary in 2 figures, mainly because my father was rendered unemployable by the Korean War equivalent of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome [he died when I was 7, anyway] & my mother was too unstable to hold a job past my 4th-grade year & wound up institutionalized for schizophrenia & manic depression before dying of cancer when I was 24 ... which is more than anyone needed to know, I fully realize, but I want to make clear that ultraleftist views are not *necessarily* confined to the scions of the rich & powerful). Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:19:22 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: bigboys Whoa there. How did the Minutemen copy Wire? The only thing the two bands have in common (IMHO) are the <2 minute songs with abrupt endings. Ironically, I have both "Ideal Copy" and "Double Nickels on the Dime" in my CD changer in the car, along with Pragha Khan, Radiohead, Crooked Fingers, The Frames, and Man or Astro-Man? Carl > From: Jim Dingus > Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. > Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:05:31 -0400 > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: bigboys > >> I was hoping someone on the list could help...I am trying to find out >> what bands did a couple of songs in the 80's: One is called, I >> believe, "Baby Let's Play God". > > A quick web search turns up the "Big Boys"...? > > Ahhhh...the Big Boys, who copied the Minutemen, who copied Wire (to a degree). > From beginning to back again. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:53:40 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: wire in boston / its all in the brochure just got back from the wire boston show, and it was dam good. lucky me, as soon i walked in, i see colin and robert walking in with bruce and graham right behind me. yea, i shouldve said hi or something, but i guess i choked up arrrgh. anyway, the opening band was quite interesting, during one song they had this guy with his face mummified reading from some ghastly text. wire took a bit to set up, but it was worth it. the highlight for me was the amazing version of mercy they did, just as good as the one from all tomorrow parties. the place was packed and seemed to really enjoy the show, even though the set was a bit short. they were selling a variation of the pink flag t shirt, it has the pink squiqqly line on it and the its all in the brochure cd. the brochure cd is pretty good... the immersion track is an ambient delight, and the djxdj track reworks the intros to finest drops, kidney bingos, drill, and feed me into a sound collage...the krev track is nonsense, as it is only 40 seconds long, and he said's "title" is an incomprehensible bunch of drivel. as for the wire tracks, they are quite cleaned up and the band sounds tight, with lowdown sounding amazing and the vocals very clear, unlike tonites show. and the rendition of 12xu is a glorious mess. all in all a good night, now all we can hope for is some new material... mike. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:44:00 -0500 From: "MackDaddyD" Subject: a chicago drill a tad late to the post , but my impressions follow: hilights: 40 versions!, advantage in height, drill, lowdown (once), = boiling boy the sound in general - and the vantage - even with a = fellow who must have been close to 7 foot near the front, most of the = stage was visible lolights: colin's equipment difficulties upon hitting the stage a few rocky moments in pink flag and one other song = which were all the more noticable given the overall tightness of wire as = a unit gear notes: colin's sparkly danelectro - graham's steinberger (thought = it was gone?) the old material had power and grace as a friend previously noted - bruce is the 'secret weapon' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 23:51:36 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Wire at the Metro At 07:11 PM 05/12/2000 -0700, tube disaster wrote: > >This is actually from Laurel, who is just discovering the "reply to >author"/"reply to all distinction" that's so crucial for posting to this >list (& not for any of the other dozen or so that I'm on ... anyone have any >idea why this is so? I must admit that even after however long I've been on >here -- more than a year, I'd wager -- I still screw up pretty >frequently) -- Of the dozen or so lists that *I'm* on, only two have "reply-to" set to the list address. These are also the only lists that are flooded with posts that are meant to be private, leading to all sorts of unpleasant consequences. Given the choice between a post occasionally not going to the list (which hopefully the sender will eventually realize when they don't get a copy in their inbox or next digest), and having the list beset with what is supposed to be private correspondence, I'm very happy with the way I've got it set up. later, listowner Miles, who's never been on a list with as many "why is it this way?" questions as this one ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:52:47 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism John Roberts wrote: > We American's would never run the Gang of Four out of the country for their > Marxist ideology. The first amendment to our Constitution covers stuff like > that. Well, it was a tongue in cheek comment. I *do* remember Steven Wells, NME journo, relating the fact that he had a particular stamp on his passport when he entered the US because he'd been a member of the Socialist Workers Party. Remember McCarthy? And its no better over here; we've just had a government kick out of its party someone who is popular enough to be mayor of London but is socialist enough to challenge the current regime's policy for the London underground. We're running into one of the 'great divides' between the Americans and British ways of life. British politics are as weird to American's as ours must seem to you. Unless you're an anglophile, you only get BIG political news about England. We've heard a bit out Mr. Livingstone, most of which makes him seem so totally out of touch with reality that it becomes relatively understandable why Labor would toss him out of the party. Another thing about England that just doesn't happen around here was exemplified by an interview of Londoners by an American reporter. The reporter asked a woman who she was going to vote for, and she replied, "Livingstone, because I was raised a socialist". We just don't have very many people being raised socialist in this country. There are a small amount of people who are raised in hardcore democrat or republican households, but for the most part, the genesis of political awareness for American's follows a classic model: Citizen is raised in an environment of political apathy. If Citizen goes to a liberal arts college, he/she tends to become involved with left leaning politics while in school. When the Citizen graduates and enters the work force, their political stances tend to moderate slightly from their college opinions and will generally stay there until something traumatic happens... like getting married and having children, buying a house with a big mortgage, etc... something that jars them into 'complete adulthood'. Once this happens, they often end up moving even farther to the right, sometimes even ending up as, (tongue firmly in cheek) god forbid, republicans. One other British political memory I had was of Neil Kinnock during the 80's... As an American, it wasn't hard to understand why Thatcher and the conservatives kept whipping the labor party's ass in elections when he came up with the idea of disbanding NATO and replacing it with a pipe filled with explosives along the iron curtain. Should the Warsaw Pact decide to invade Western Europe, that pipe filled with explosives would be blown up, stopping those evil communists in their path. When I first heard this 'cunning plan', I almost busted a blood vessel I laughed so hard! And as far as McCarthy goes, yes I remember him. He was a drunk and a not very good senator, but if you read the Venona papers and other accounts from former Soviet agents in retrospect he was more right than wrong. Something the liberal media elite in this country will never admit to. The Venona papers confirmed that American and British based communist and socialist organizations were bankrolled and in many cases outright controlled from KGB headquarters in Moscow. That might explain why Mr. Wells had his 'special' passport stamp. > > Sadly, most American's are thoroughly and completely unaware of the > political content of music. If it's got a good beat and you can dance to it, > or if it 'ROCKS' (said with full and complete sarcasm), it might be a big > hit, even if it's just a musical adaptation of 'The Internationale'. Well, I think 'politicial content of music' is a rather vague undefineable thing myself. Take an extreme example; Skrewdriver release records with the most infantile, reactionary racist lyrics imaginable but cover Lynyrd Skynyrd's Sweet Home Alabama, play what is by definition of its form something historically specific to not only the US, but the black US i.e. rawk n roll. Crass may have politcally progressive lyrics but I would imagine there are a few out there who think that their music is reactionary. I've never heard any of Skrewdriver's music, but if the lyrics were so horrible as to distract from the music, I can say I probably wouldn't like them. Dan mentioned Ted Nugent as another example of a producer of right-wing political music. I can't remember any of his lyrics dealing with any political issues... most of his songs concern his quest for female companionship, i.e. 'WangoTango'. Also, I don't buy into the concept of instrumental music being at all political. You may listen to a piece of music and apply labels such as 'progressive'... I apply less politically charged phrases such as 'experimental', i.e. Kraftwerk's 'Autobahn' has no lyrics and I would accept it as experimental music... If 'Radio-Activity' was an instrumental I would call it experimental, but it has lyrics that take a stand on nuclear power, making it a 'political' political work. I may not agree with their stand on nuclear power, but I enjoy the music in 'Radio-Activity' so I ignore the political content. If the music were bad, along with political lyrics I don't agree with would mean that I wouldn't much care for it. The last hit song in American that I can remember coming even close to having a right-wing political message in it was 'Get Over It' by the Eagles from a few years ago. Just like political songs from the left, the vast majority of Americans ignored it's political message. For my tastes, good music can overcome bad lyrics, but I've never seen a case where good lyrics make up for horrible music. > I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political dogma > in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost universally > left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got their > political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question their > sanity. I must admit that I would not be the same person - vegetarian, doing a PhD on governmentality and reading practices, annoying people on mailing lists - had I not listened to a lot of Crass et al records as a youngster. (And I'm 33 next month.) But as I say this is obviously not the same for anyone who has ever listened to Crass. I must admit that my choice of musical tastes have had absolutely no effect on what I am today, a meat eating libertarian who's a LAN/WAN professional with a B.S. degree in computer science, a wife, a dog, a house in the suburbs, hopefully a child on the way soon, who really likes Wire. The major influences on my moral, ethical, and political stances have been what I've read, what I've seen, and what I've experienced. Pop music just doesn't have the same 'throughput' that those other forms of media has to influence my political thoughts. > I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them are no > smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional enjoyment Well, you have to ask what is it about music that makes people *expect* pop musicians to change the world or be politically astute.> The only thing I can think that would make people think that pop musicians could change the world would be complete ignorance of reality and the way things work in the world. The pen is mightier than the sword, not the guitar. > Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, Rage > Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates who > never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated themselves > to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the masses. > Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 Rage > Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between Communism, > Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. I don't know if any of us can any more. Governmentality exists in such an insidious form nowadays. I won't bang on about Foucault on a music list tho. I do agree with you that Government is insidious, and the bigger and more centralized government gets, the more insidious it becomes. I've read Foucault, and his concepts of political theory have absolutely no connection to any reality I've seen. > > We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish t-shirts > would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one with Che' > on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage > Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to be > cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... they > 'rocked', and that was enough for him. Well, to return to the Crass example, I remember buying a Campaign For Nuclear Disarmament badge as a youngster because I knew of it s general message i.e. it had something to do with pacificism and I'd seen the logo on the sleeves of crass records. OK, it *was* naive but when a teacher picked me up on it at school and started interrogating me as to my politics - which as I'm older and wiser now I realise was basically ideological bullying - it made me (a) determined to find out precisely what the badge represented and (b) think more about politics etc. Who knows? Your intern might well lead the glorious revolution one day 8-) Joe the intern won't be leading any revolutions... he'll eventually drop out of enough colleges that his well-off parents will just give him a job in their business. > Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... but I'm > glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a > definite appeal for me! The first album and the peel session album are the only ones worth having in my opinion. One of Go4's drummers ended up playing for and being a minder for topless model/pop star (those of you in the States will probably have no context in which to place this person) Samantha Fox. I've written pretty frankly about my opinions here, and I mean to offend no one. There are large political divides between many people. If I've made you angry with something I said, please know that I was not making personal attacks, just stating my opinion. Getting off of my soapbox, Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 03:42:15 EDT From: OptionsR@aol.com Subject: Re: Wire in Chicago (sort of long) Not replying to a specific comment, but some general commentary (I pretty much never post because I'm on the digest and wind up just finding out about a topic just in time for someone else to answer all the questions, or for it to be beat into the ground...also I HATE having to scroll through to read a comment, five other comments, and the original item before getting to the next item, so here goes...) on the Chicago show... I flew in Phoenix, Arizona for it. I was unfortunately to preoccupied with some personal thoughts to bother introducing myself to anyone (I was at The Ginger Man, wearing a Faust "X-ray" t-shirt and getting drunk WAY too early, like around 6:45), so my apologies for unintentionally snubbing any other Wirefans there. I missed Seam's set, and it sounds like I didn't miss much. Surprisingly but fortunately, I was still conscious through Wire's set, so here are my impressions of it (keeping in mind I was sleep-deprived from having been awake since 5 AM, was very drunk, and becoming depressed knowing it was the last time I'd be hanging around with a very dear friend of mine before she moves away to Pennsylvania): 1. I sort of like the "pop" arrangement of "40 Versions". Not so abstract, but it still maintained a blurry quality to it that must be inherent in the song itself. 2. Removing the one other chord from "Pink Flag" made the song sound like a Loop cover. Decide for yourself whether that's a good thing or not. 3. "Lowdown" stomped most righteously, dudes. 4. "Drill" was awful. No gradually building tension, no verses, no vocal chattering, just BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM. The fact they closed their set with such a dull version made the show seem more disappointing to me than it probably actually was. 5. I guess Wire must still have their license to confuse, since I still cannot determine their motives for playing an unusually short set (age is no excuse - Faust played for nearly two hours when I saw them), and playing practically everything at a much too rushed pace. Deliberate contrariness? Sarcastic reply to fans who want them to "ROCK OUT"? Realization that maybe a US tour wasn't such a good idea after all and just wanting to get it over with as soon as possible? But I suppose when you're as odd as Wire, you don't really have to offer up a straight answer. 6. There is NO comment #6. 7. I'm not sure where I stand on the "playing old vs. new material" debate: not much in the way of actual surprises in the set (which was sort of a surprise in itself - oh, that British sense of humor!), but if I had paid $200 for cross-country plane fare and $20 for a ticket and they did a "D & E"-style set of all-new too-difficult-to-get-in-one-go material, I would have been quite pissed off ("D & E" becomes pretty amusing after a few listens provided you didn't actually travel to the show and pay money to attend the gig...like Mel Brooks says, "Tragedy is when I fall down and hurt my leg. Comedy is when YOU fall down a manhole and break your neck."). 8. Got the T-shirt and the RFH "Brochure" CD, which I'm listening to now. I wish I'd gone to that show instead (probably would have ducked out for the DJXDJ part, though). Well, back to the shadows again for me again, fellow holograms. This is your correspondent, running out of tape, Just some guy named Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 01:40:41 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: wire in boston / its all in the brochure anyway, the opening band was quite interesting, during one song >they had this guy with his face mummified reading from some ghastly text. Sounds like Boston made out far better in the opening-band department, then. (Speaking of which, did *anybody* like Seam in Chicago? I've already described how dull I found them, & everyone who's mentioned them has said pretty much the same ... such apparent unanimity on this list would seem pretty atypical.) Who were these guys? Your description of that one song is fascinating -- like something Lovecraft would've written in Nyarlothotep, maybe. Dan ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #137 *******************************