From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #136 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, May 12 2000 Volume 03 : Number 136 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: zounds [Joshua ] Re: zounds ["tube disaster" ] Re: zounds [John Roberts ] Re: zounds ["tube disaster" ] Re: zounds ["tube disaster" ] Re: zounds ["tube disaster" ] Re: Americans and Marxism [Aaron Mandel ] Re: boston show.... ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: boston show.... ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: theoldwiththenew ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] RE: Americans and Marxism ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Americans and Marxism ["tube disaster" ] Re: boston show.... ["Audiopig" ] Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago [VoxxJaguar@aol.com] It's all in the brochure (pf2)... request [fernando ] bigboys [Jim Dingus ] Re: Wire in Boston tomorrow... [Aaron Mandel ] Wire in Boston TONIGHT ["A. Izenstark" ] RE: Americans and Marxism ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago [jAY DEIGNAN ] Re: Americans and Marxism ["Michel Faber" ] Re: Americans and Marxism [MarkBursa@aol.com] gbv/gotobed ["Steven Mindy" ] Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago ["tube disaster" ] Re: Wire in Boston tomorrow... ["tube disaster" ] Re: Wire at the Metro ["tube disaster" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:44:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Re: zounds Perhaps a little Pogueish? - -Joshua On Fri, 12 May 2000, John Roberts wrote: > OK. One of the first non crass releases on crass records. Sort of > levellers-ish but really mean it maaaan. Tuneful stuff but not so folky. > All but the first single and the last live ep on Rough trade. Erm...I'm > not really selling em am I? Let's say a folky version of Go4 - that > should do it. The drummer went on to be the singer in Blyth Power if that > means anything to anyone but Zounds not as folky as BP. > > John Roberts > > ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:39:59 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: zounds Oh, yeah. Meant to mention that their Demystification was covered by Lush. Who were also known to cover the odd Wire song. (And who also covered Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep, which I just mentioned in an offlist e-mail in a different context.) It all always comes full circle, somehow, back to Colin, Bruce, Graham & Robert ... Dan >>On Fri, 12 May 2000, John Roberts wrote: >> >>> Curse of Zounds is a cracking album. You can get it on CD now from >Rugger >>> Bugger records and it includes *all* the singles too inc the Cant Chear >>> Karma ep and the rare live ep La Vache... >> >>What band is this? Describe. >> >>-Joshua > > >The band's name was Zounds. Second-generation anarchopunk. Sort of a >postpunkish take on the genre, straying over a bit later into pure pop (More >Trouble is an *amazing* example of that). A couple of 'em later formed The >Mob &, after that, Blyth Power, who are still around & releasing the >occasional album, though unfortunately I've been unable to scare up anything >since Paradise Razed. Its (I think) immediate predecessor, Alnwick & Tyne, >is one of my favorite albums of the '90s. > >Dan > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 16:46:46 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: zounds Oh god no. As the other mail suggests more pop folky than pogue pop. Jangling guitars and a voice with a discernible sneer in it at all times. John Roberts ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:41:55 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: zounds Not unless I'm completely misremembering the Pogues' sound (of course, I prefer their post-Shane stuff *any*way ...) Dan >Perhaps a little Pogueish? > >-Joshua > >On Fri, 12 May 2000, John Roberts wrote: > >> OK. One of the first non crass releases on crass records. Sort of >> levellers-ish but really mean it maaaan. Tuneful stuff but not so folky. >> All but the first single and the last live ep on Rough trade. Erm...I'm >> not really selling em am I? Let's say a folky version of Go4 - that >> should do it. The drummer went on to be the singer in Blyth Power if that >> means anything to anyone but Zounds not as folky as BP. >> >> John Roberts >> >> > >___ ___ > >http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) > >--- --- > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:55:35 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: zounds It's on Let the Tribe Increase on Rugger Bugger in the UK, Broken Rekids over here. Can't speak for the Rugger Bugger, but I'm pretty sure Broken still has it in stock ... would check but I need to start getting ready for work (I've already taken the morning off because I had to give 2 dogs a bath after fetching them from the vet's this morning, my flight last night having gotten in late -- being boarded for 2 days is *not* conducive to canine cleanliness). I think it may show up on CD Now's site. Dan >Must agree - Alnwick & Tyne is a great album (haven't seen it on CD though >but Paradise Razed is). >The Zounds CD is well worth a listen - it must be nearly 20 years old now >but still sounds good. >Josef Porta (the man with the pen behind Zounds and Blythe Power has a great >sense of humour and no small amount of talent). The mention of the Mob >reminds me I still haven't found "No Doves Fly Here" on CD - anyone know if >it's available ? > >Steve > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf >Of tube disaster >Sent: 12 May 2000 17:25 >To: wire mailing list >Subject: Re: zounds > > > >>On Fri, 12 May 2000, John Roberts wrote: >> >>> Curse of Zounds is a cracking album. You can get it on CD now from >Rugger >>> Bugger records and it includes *all* the singles too inc the Cant Chear >>> Karma ep and the rare live ep La Vache... >> >>What band is this? Describe. >> >>-Joshua > > >The band's name was Zounds. Second-generation anarchopunk. Sort of a >postpunkish take on the genre, straying over a bit later into pure pop (More >Trouble is an *amazing* example of that). A couple of 'em later formed The >Mob &, after that, Blyth Power, who are still around & releasing the >occasional album, though unfortunately I've been unable to scare up anything >since Paradise Razed. Its (I think) immediate predecessor, Alnwick & Tyne, >is one of my favorite albums of the '90s. > >Dan > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:00:11 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: zounds >Must agree - Alnwick & Tyne is a great album (haven't seen it on CD though >but Paradise Razed is). I own them (both on CD) because Blyth Power's bassist, Martin Neish, sent them to me out of the blue after I spoke favorably of the band on the Chumbawamba list a couple of years ago. Prince of a fellow, but a bit downcast about the group's utter inability to connect with a larger audience. I don't believe they've ever had a thing out in the US, which is criminal. I've got a couple of their later CDs on order in the UK (just as I do So & Slow It Grows & Vien), but the fact that months have since passed is not a good sign as to their availability. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:07:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism On Fri, 12 May 2000, John Roberts wrote: > One of Go4's drummers ended up playing for and being a minder for > topless model/pop star (those of you in the States will probably have > no context in which to place this person) Samantha Fox. "Naughty Girls Need Love Too", right? i remember she had two hits over here that made it as far as my somewhat god-forsaken part of the midwest in the 80s, so she must have broken the US market to a reasonable degree. Zounds, on the other hand, i only know from the time i went through the radio station's whole collection alphabetically. glad i did. "Demystification" reminds me most of Nocturnal Projections or the like... a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:15:22 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: boston show.... > i cant wait for the show, does anyone know if they are selling the third day > cd or shirt at the show? They were selling the CD at the show. The t-shirt they were selling was not the limited edition RFH shirt, but a darn cool shirt, just the same. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:24:23 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: boston show.... > If memory serves, The Third Day was the "practice" EP sold at the RFH show > ... if it was available last night, I sure didn't see it. They are selling a > full CD, It's All in the Brochure, with 16 tracks from the RFH show, 12 by > Wire (no new songs, one of which I believe appears on Third Day). > Wow - that's new. They were still sellling "The Third Day" at the Seattle show. Can we get this on-line? (pause) No mention on Pinkflag.com yet. Damn - I need this! (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:19:46 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew > GBV I started getting into a > few months ago ... nice show they did in Memphis back in November. They > didn't do themselves any favors a couple of nights ago on Conan O'Brien, > though -- Hold on Hope is exactly what I suppose Robert Pollard wants it to > be: a boring ballad to wave cigarette lighters to. > You know, I watched that show, and I think I figured out what the problem was. They were sober. There's a reason they're nick-named "Guided by Budweisers". (^_^) I saw them on this last concert swing, and GbV played "Hold on Hope" at the end of a long, alcohol soaked set, and it was much cooler. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:30:17 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism "Naughty Girls Need Love Too", right? i remember she had two hits over here that made it as far as my somewhat god-forsaken part of the midwest in the 80s, so she must have broken the US market to a reasonable degree. Broken the US market to a reasonable degree? Hell, she broke the US market bigger than 99.9 percent of the bands we talk about on this list! :) I myself always confused her with the 70's porn star Samantha Fox.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:32:25 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism >I myself always confused her with the 70's porn star Samantha Fox.... Sure we're not talking about the same individual? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:48:35 -0500 From: "Audiopig" Subject: Re: boston show.... for those interested, the track info for "It's All In The Brochure" (pf2) is as follows: immersion - les isles flottantes (not arriving) he said - t.i.t.l.e. djxdj - untitled extraction krev - royal wave (extract) pink flag silk skin paws 40 versions boiling boy lowdown advantage in height another the letter 12xu ...all from the RFH show, the djxdj (daniel miller/s.hodder) track is one of my faves, a powerbook/cd mishmash of various wire tunes from their mute years. very entertaining. anyone have a recording of the full djxdj set? - -----Original Message----- From: Paul Pietromonaco To: Ideal Copy Mailing list Date: Friday, May 12, 2000 11:28 AM Subject: Re: boston show.... >> If memory serves, The Third Day was the "practice" EP sold at the RFH >show >> ... if it was available last night, I sure didn't see it. They are >selling a >> full CD, It's All in the Brochure, with 16 tracks from the RFH show, 12 >by >> Wire (no new songs, one of which I believe appears on Third Day). >> > >Wow - that's new. They were still sellling "The Third Day" at the Seattle >show. Can we get this on-line? > >(pause) > > >No mention on Pinkflag.com yet. Damn - I need this! (^_^) > >Cheers, >Paul > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:49:04 EDT From: VoxxJaguar@aol.com Subject: Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago In a message dated 5/12/00 3:32:09 AM Central Daylight Time, owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org writes: > > If memory serves, The Third Day was the "practice" EP sold at the RFH show > ... if it was available last night, I sure didn't see it. They are selling a > full CD, It's All in the Brochure, with 16 tracks from the RFH show, 12 by > Wire (no new songs, one of which I believe appears on Third Day). > > And yes, the T-shirts are being sold. I'm about 5 pounds away from wearing > mine ... > > Dan Hello All, My name is Dave. I'm new to the list. I live in Evanston, just north of Chicago. Grew up in the area. 34 years old. First heard Wire on 120 minutes c.87(?)... Eardrum Buzz...(proud to say that I simply liked the band from hearing(seeing) it, without being tainted or influenced by critics. ...I had no prior knowledge of the group. That's all I heard for a while.... Then in '95 my roommate had "On The Returning" and I finally got hooked. Then picked up the first 3 on on Restless Retro. Can anyone post the setlist from Tuesday's show? I jotted down several of the songs I knew, but there were a few I didn't know. Also, I didn't see ANY merchandise at the show. Did I miss it? If so, is it still attainable? (3rd Day?/All in Brochure?/tourshirt?) I did check out Colin's DJ'ing at the Smart Bar afterwards. The Hawkwind remix WAS great. (triumphantly raising his arms at the end) & I liked how he occaisionally played rocknroll with dance floor responding. It was great to see him bopping around in the booth; it's obvious he truly enjoys it. Let me know if there are others here that live in the Chicago area. I have a hard time finding (local) friends that have decent taste in music. The ones I do have are in London or NYC. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:55:04 -0700 From: fernando Subject: It's all in the brochure (pf2)... request Well, those were not available at the early shows... is there a way for a kind soul to pick up a copy at any of the remaining show(s)... given the cost and shipping to the US from pinkflag.com vs. the show, it would be nice to get it locally... I am personally willing to add some intangible as an incentive -- e.g., live recording MD. thanks, fernando At 09:48 AM 5/12/00, Audiopig wrote: >for those interested, the track info for "It's All In The Brochure" (pf2) is >as follows: > > immersion - les isles flottantes (not arriving) > he said - t.i.t.l.e. > djxdj - untitled extraction > krev - royal wave (extract) > pink flag > silk skin paws > 40 versions > boiling boy > lowdown > advantage in height > another the letter > 12xu > > > > ...all from the RFH show, the djxdj (daniel miller/s.hodder) track >is one of my faves, a powerbook/cd mishmash of various wire tunes from their >mute years. very entertaining. anyone have a recording of the full djxdj >set? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 17:58:02 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism Are we taking about the topless model Sam Fox who, I think, was the youngest girl to pose for The Sun newspaper. She later released a couple of LP's one of which included the track "Touch Me"? Chris. "tube disaster" on 12/05/2000 18:32:25 To: "Ideal Copy Mailing list" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS) Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism >I myself always confused her with the 70's porn star Samantha Fox.... Sure we're not talking about the same individual? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:02:30 -0400 From: Jim Dingus Subject: gbv >"Steven Blum" >I never bought any Guided By Voices albums but I sam them live last fall. >The only semi-remarkable thing about them was that the lead singer choked >down about 9 beers without ever leaving the stage to relieve himself. He >must have a sturdy prostate. But anyways, that seems to sum up his >seemingly prolific writing ability...he retains too much piss. Hmmmm...that's too bad. I would be hard pressed to comment on the vast GBV catelogue after seeing one drunken show. Pollard's beer-fueled antics sound about right...although the new band can still hum when they're on. The glory days of Guided by Voices (especially live) were right before Bee Thousand broke, up to the Under the Bushes, Under the Stars tour. The core line-up was in place at that time. It's all new guys now. Plus the shows aren't the same at all unless you know you're familiar with material. BTW, the reason I brought them up is because 154 is one of Pollard's fave albums of all time; lots of wire influence in GBV's stuff. Check out Robert Pollard "Waved Out" ; he wears it on his sleeve there..which is a good thing. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:05:31 -0400 From: Jim Dingus Subject: bigboys > I was hoping someone on the list could help...I am trying to find out > what bands did a couple of songs in the 80's: One is called, I > believe, "Baby Let's Play God". A quick web search turns up the "Big Boys"...? Ahhhh...the Big Boys, who copied the Minutemen, who copied Wire (to a degree). From beginning to back again. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:36:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Wire in Boston tomorrow... On Thu, 11 May 2000, A. Izenstark wrote: > There was such excitement over a pre-show get-together in Chicago > that I'm somewhat surprised that no one's said a word about any sort > of get-together before/at the Boston show. yeah, i think i may be hard-pressed to get to the gig long before it starts, but if i do (or if the audience is thin enough at first to mill about), i'll be the guy in the Jazz Butcher shirt whose hair looks like his head caught fire and some of the smoke was magically converted back to hair at the last possible moment. come to think of it, if i've got a moment, i'll make a sign that says "HERE" and wave it about. it sounds like there'll be a number of us there, and i wouldn't mind putting faces to some of your names. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:57:04 -0400 From: "A. Izenstark" Subject: Wire in Boston TONIGHT Aaron Mandel wrote: > yeah, i think i may be hard-pressed to get to the gig long before it > starts, but if i do (or if the audience is thin enough at first to mill > about), i'll be the guy in the Jazz Butcher shirt whose hair looks like > his head caught fire and some of the smoke was magically converted back to > hair at the last possible moment. Quite an interesting description! > come to think of it, if i've got a moment, i'll make a sign that says > "HERE" and wave it about. it sounds like there'll be a number of us there, > and i wouldn't mind putting faces to some of your names. Several listmembers who rarely post and I will be there, as well, so if anyone sees Aaron, you might get three or four for the price of one. Eagerly anticipating losing her hearing tonight, Amanda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:51:59 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism - -----Original Message----- From: tube disaster [mailto:dpbailey@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Friday, May 12, 2000 12:32 PM To: Ideal Copy Mailing list Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism >I myself always confused her with the 70's porn star Samantha Fox.... Sure we're not talking about the same individual? Dan Nope, The Porn Samantha Fox was from the mid to late 70's... The pop star Samantha Fox was from the mid to late 80's and looked nothing like the porn star. Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) From: jAY DEIGNAN Subject: Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago Hallo, Hallo... Long time listener, 1st time caller. New to the list yaya of course because I heard that WIRE was pulling through Chicagoland and had to find out what they were playing on previous dates. Of Course the only set lists I could find were from 1979. So PLEASE some one...give me (us)? some info here. @ the metro... Yes T-Shirts were on sale as well as a cd. $15 each. I wasn't impressed by the shirt so. You had to look hard right prior to having your ticket ripped. I tried to get that set list (It looked like one at least) but that big guy video taping the show (stage right) wasn't gonna let it go. I asked the FOH engineer and he said "They didn't play with one". Whatever. Yeah SEAM sucked. Do you relize they almost played as long of a set? Next time I'll bring ear plugs. ~jAY __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 20:51:50 +0100 From: "Michel Faber" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism Dear John, I was heartened by your generous-spirited response to the following cynical tirade about the political content of music: > I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of >them are no smarter than you or me... >Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular >music, Rage Against the Machine. A band full of well off young >college graduates who never worked a day of 'real work' in their >lives have dedicated themselves to bringing their message of >Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the masses. > Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 >Rage Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference >between Communism, Socialism, and democratic/republican forms >of government. > We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish >t-shirts would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You >know, the one with Che' on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but >he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage Against the Machine concert, and he >paid $50 to get it, so it had to be cool. He had absolutely no idea >about RaTM's political stances... they 'rocked', and that was >enough for him. To which you, John, replied: >I must admit that I would not be the same person - vegetarian, >doing a PhD on governmentality and reading practices, annoying >people on mailing lists - had I not listened to a lot of Crass et al >records as a youngster. (And I'm 33 next month.) But as I say >this is obviously not the same for anyone who has ever listened >to Crass. >I remember buying a Campaign For Nuclear Disarmament badge >as a youngster because I knew of its general message i.e. it had >something to do with pacificism and I'd seen the logo on the >sleeves of crass records. OK, it *was* naive but when a teacher >picked me up on it at school and started interrogating me as to my >politics - which as I'm older and wiser now I realise was basically >ideological bullying - it made me (a) determined to find out >precisely what the badge represented and (b) think more about >politics etc. Who knows? Your intern might well lead the glorious >revolution one day 8-) This is an excellent point to make. It's very easy to be cynical about the role of rock (or indeed any music) in changing people's lives, but the fact is that SOME people's lives ARE abruptly changed politically and that music can play a crucial part in this. The snide comment about Rage Against The Machine being "well-off college graduates" is similar to much of the criticism that politically aware music attracts - such music is often made by well-educated people with lots of choices rather than by denizens of an oppressed underclass. Which only stands to reason, because if you're an illiterate Korean working in a Reebok factory or an impoverished mother in a ghetto, you're unlikely to be making records or writing books. People sometimes forget that Marx himself was a comfortably- off middle-class scholar, writing the Communist Manifesto in the British Museum... This doesn't invalidate what he said, or mean that those who invoke Marxist principles are suckers. I've never heard Rage Against The Machine, but you are quite right to suggest that in amongst the hordes of dull-witted, materialistic fans of any politically motivated group, there may be one person who will, against all expectations, end up "leading the revolution". Nor should it be assumed that the group themselves are always living in dreamland about the nature of their fans. I'm sure Moby, for example, is perfectly well aware that most of the people who've bought his bestselling 'Play' album are not going to take the slightest bit of notice of the ideological essays he's written for the booklet. But if just ONE of those thousands of fans has a little lightbulb go on in his/her head, it's worthwhile. In any case, as Brian Eno once said, ALL music is political. Even music which encourages consumer surrender or apathy (like Michael Bolton or Janet Jackson) is political in that it fits in with the purposes of a certain political order. By contrast, music that encourages intellectual unrest or dissatisfaction is political too, even when its texts are not overtly so. Elvis Presley's early records had an effect on a generation of American youth that was definitely politically transformational! In my youth, my love of German electronic and avant-garde music, even though it was almost exclusively instrumental, had a profound political effect on me, because it allied me with forms of music that the dominant consumer culture was trying to pretend didn't exist. And once you're on the peripheries musically, you tend to become more open to non-mainstream thought of all kinds. As for Crass, I always throught their music was unlistenably bad (except for the later, non-punk stuff, when Eve Libertine started to come to the fore). But I bought all their albums because I loved to read the copious texts on their wonderful fold-out sleeves, and I was so glad there was a band raging against Thatcherism, at the very height of her miserable reign. They were like the AntiSpandauBallet, if you know what I mean... OK, so much for the areas in which I agree with you wholeheartedly. Now on to the Gang of Four. You wrote: >The first album and the peel session album are the only ones worth >having in my opinion. One of Go4's drummers ended up playing >for and being a minder for topless model/pop star (those of you in >the States will probably have no context in which to place this >person) Samantha Fox. No, I think each of the Gang of Four's albums is good and special in its own way. Even 'Hard', which must be one of the most absurdly mis-titled albums ever... And Sara Lee was a pretty nifty bass player - - check out her work on 'I Will Be A Good Boy' and 'Life, It's A Shame' (Songs of the Free). Anyway, your story about the drummer and Samantha Fox reminds me - I have an Australian radio interview in which said drummer (Hugo Burnham) is asked about this very thing. His answer is a masterpiece of evasion. Firstly, he says that Samantha Fox was, by the time he got involved with her, a genuine pop star, not a topless model, and that she can sing, and that her audience is young kids. (Mmm, OK, pass...) Then he says, "Anyway, she's nineteen years old and she's got a job, which is England at the moment is quite something. And if that job earns you half a million pounds a year, that's something else again." Spin doctoring at its finest, from the drummer of a new wave band. Best wishes, Michel Faber ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:45:37 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Americans and Marxism Tube Disaster said: Dan, I don't want to get into a spitting match with you because I've met you and you are an exceedingly nice guy... but I've got to respond to some of your statements. >I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political dogma >in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost universally >left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got their >political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question their >sanity. And after I said I'd refuse to discuss politics *sigh* ... I'm glad this subject didn't come up at the table last night -- bad enough that I learned that all the rest of you grew up as Styx fanatics. Charles & I stated that we 'were' Styx fans while we were growing up... I can't vouch for Charles, but I don't own a single Styx recording now... I remember you naming some bands you admired as a wee one, but out of politeness, I won't name names... :) Anyway, when the subject has come up on other lists I've noted that I don't *expect* political content (agreeable to me or otherwise) in music, but when I get it, it's like icing on the cake. That includes the Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, Redskins, Clash, Chumbawamba, Consolidated, Alabama 3, the Dils & the anarchopunk hordes of yesteryear. (And yes, they *do* tend to be "almost universally left-wing." If you want the opposing viewpoint, be my guest & go listen to Ted Nugent & Skrewdriver till your ears bleed. Me, I'll stick with stuff that sounds halfway decent.) I listen to, or have listened to Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, the Clash, Chumbawamba and I wouldn't rate any of them as being amongst my favorite music, regardless of the political stance taken. I've not heard of Skrewdriver, but if they're 'heavy metal' like Mr. Nugent, I'll pass on it. Of all of the artists you've listed, I own recordings by Easterhouse, and the Clash. In both cases the music I like outweighs the political dogma. If it's a great song but the lyrics are sheer political propaganda, I can ignore the lyrics and still enjoy the song. But I have to tell you that left-wing propaganda + bad music = a quick headache! But, no, I don't go to my music collection for political guidance, & I didn't when I was a teen-ager. (I don't go *anywhere* for political guidance except my own experiences & perceptions, whether the commentator is Joe Strummer or Rush Limbaugh or Noam Chomsky or William F Buckley.) Agreed... I like to get as much information, from as many sources on both sides of the issue as possible until I fully 'grok' the issue and make up my own mind. > >I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them are no >smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional enjoyment >(from happy to sad) from music is a sign of an impending You seem to have left out a word here ... Oh, I leave many words out both here and there... What I meant was that anyone who follows the political thought of a typical musician is a 'fool following the fool' situation. > >Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, Rage >Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates who >never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated themselves >to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the masses. >Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 Rage >Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between Communism, >Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. I have no problem with RATM, other than the fact that I don't find their music very interesting. And while I've never had any great admiration for the ruling class or even the bourgeoisie, if indeed they're all "well off young college graduates" (probably not completely accurate, judging from the little I've read) I can't see how that that would automatically disqualify them from finding fault -- even on a CD! -- with the system now in place. Too, probably "95 out of 100 registered voters couldn't tell you the difference between Communism, Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government," so I'm not really sure what your point is. From the information I've read about Rage Against the Machine, they're all the product of upper-middle to upper class families who are out to 'educate' the 'great unwashed' about the evils of a capitalist system... I learned a word for this back in Psych 101, it's called self-loathing, and it's endemic amongst our population, especially those on the left of the political spectrum. > >We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish t-shirts >would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one with Che' >on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage >Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to be >cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... they >'rocked', and that was enough for him. I'm still missing your point ... I suppose there's a slight chance he'll be inspired to try to find out who this Che dude was. And this would be bad how? This interns name was Joe, and he was quite a nice fellow, with a family background quite similar to the members of RATM. He was in his early twenties and had flunked out of three different colleges. His parents are quite well off, and he was never pushed or inspired to do much of anything in his life. He has yet to fall into the self-loathing stage, and so continues to enjoy his life for what it is. He has no direction, no desire to do much of anything except play video games and listen to Phish. > >Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... but I'm >glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a >definite appeal for me! Well, we all have different tastes, but I'd say that the Go4's first one is damned near on a par with Pink Flag as far as debut LPs go. That first Go4 release was quite interesting musically, but I maintain and elaborate my statement that the heart and soul of Go4 was Dave Allen, and I much prefer the Smart dance-pop of Shriekback than the subsequent Go4 releases. Cheers, Ray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:43:39 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism Ray, << I've not heard of Skrewdriver, but if they're 'heavy metal' like Mr. Nugent, I'll pass on it. >> Far from it. Actually Skrewdriver were quite a good 1977 punk band until it emerged the singer was, basically a Nazi. Their first album and first two singles were pretty good 100mph, nihilistic punk records. The band came from my home town, Blackpool in Lancashire (home of Section 25 and Tunnelvision, hence my Factory connections of 20 yrs ago). The Skrewdriver singer (Ian Donaldson aka Ian Stewart, in homage to the sometime Stones keys man, known locally as "Don") was the most unpleasant cunt I ever had the misfortune to witness. He'd turn up at gigs (this is after the band split when one of the others was sent to prison) and stand at the front sieg heiling. Because he was a big hard skinhead bully nobody would try to stop him. The band was forced underground as its records became overtly fascist. The twat was killed in a car crash a few years ago. Good riddance. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:51:45 -0400 From: "Steven Mindy" Subject: gbv/gotobed After a GBV show in Toronto last year, I ended up speaking with Bob Pollard. The topic turned to Wire, and he said Robert Gotobed is the greatest drummer of all time. He also said Map. Ref... was one of his favorite songs. I guess GBV have been playing "Blessed State" at some recent shows. Although I have never seen Wire (Monday!!!), I will say that GBV is my favorite live band. I've seen them seven times, and had a great time at each show. Further, "Subspace Biographies" from Pollard's Waved Out is the best Wire song Wire never wrote. impatiently waiting for the 15th, Steve Mindy Steven Mindy "I'm flying south with a running start from the roof of my house" - Polvo ICQ 43263895 AOL IM - slinkingcrutch support your local technician: http://www.mindspring.com/~mosfet/index2.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:57:42 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Wire at Metro, Chicago > Also, I didn't see ANY merchandise at the show. >Did I miss it? Afraid so (& you weren't the only one, I've learned offlist). It was being sold in the little room to your right a few yards before the ticket-taker ... all that was visible were the Noise Pop brochures on the desktop, which doesn't strike me as very aggressive salesmanship. The shirts & CDs were, as it were, "behind the curtain," as I noted to someone else last night. If so, is it still attainable? >(3rd Day?/All in Brochure?/tourshirt?) As noted before, if 3rd Day was on sale Wed night, I missed it. As for the others, I wish I'd have known to pick up extras for people beyond the 3 I did buy (for myself & 2 friends who couldn't make the trek from Little Rock). > Let me know if there are others here that >live in the Chicago area. I have a hard time finding >(local) friends that have decent taste in music. Most of the listmembers who I saw were Chicago-area residents ... offhand, I know of only 2 of us who flew in from elsewhere, though I strongly suspect there were others. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:00:54 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Wire in Boston tomorrow... >> There was such excitement over a pre-show get-together in Chicago >> that I'm somewhat surprised that no one's said a word about any sort >> of get-together before/at the Boston show. > >yeah, i think i may be hard-pressed to get to the gig long before it >starts, but if i do (or if the audience is thin enough at first to mill >about), i'll be the guy in the Jazz Butcher shirt What're you trying to do, show me up? I wore a Jazz Butcher shirt (purchased at their Memphis show a couple of weeks ago) on the flight to Chicago & came thisclose to wearing it to the gig before opting for plain gray instead ... whose hair looks like >his head caught fire and some of the smoke was magically converted back to >hair at the last possible moment. I'll bet my hair could beat your hair if they were to fight. Maybe. That's a pretty daunting description ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:06:14 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism >>As for Crass, I always throught their music was unlistenably bad (except for the later, non-punk stuff, when Eve Libertine started to come to the fore). But I bought all their albums because I loved to read the copious texts on their wonderful fold-out sleeves, and I was so glad there was a band raging against Thatcherism, at the very height of her miserable reign. They were like the AntiSpandauBallet, if you know what I mean...<< I found their singles far more appealing than their albums. Shaved Women is great, primal punk that I found very nearly breathtaking in its brutal simplicity when I first heard it in '79 or '80 ... Big A Little A/Nagasaki Nightmare is one of my favorite 7"s of all time, & so is their Bloody Revolutions/Persons Unknown split with Poison Girls. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 19:11:42 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Wire at the Metro This is actually from Laurel, who is just discovering the "reply to author"/"reply to all distinction" that's so crucial for posting to this list (& not for any of the other dozen or so that I'm on ... anyone have any idea why this is so? I must admit that even after however long I've been on here -- more than a year, I'd wager -- I still screw up pretty frequently) -- >>- >> >4. Bruce does not look ill, he looks 54. >> >Upon seeing him at the Metro & then >>getting to meet him as they were leaving (infinite thanks, Charles!), >>though, I found that he merely looked like a fastidiously intelligent (&, >>in person, quite gracious) man in his early '50s -- quite a relief, I don't >>think he's wearing them in the photo, & >>somehow they provide his visage with some focus, or something like that. >> >- > >4. Bruce does not look ill, he looks 54. > Upon seeing him at the Metro & then >getting to meet him as they were leaving (infinite thanks, Charles!), >though, I found that he merely looked like a fastidiously intelligent (&, >in person, quite gracious) man in his early '50s -- quite a relief, I don't >think he's wearing them in the photo, & >somehow they provide his visage with some focus, or something like that. > >Dan > Ok I subbed - couldn't resist - forget everything nice I said when I wasn't - - hehe - just kidding - I still mean it I just want to say that from the female perspective - he's still got it going - I was *very* pleasantly suprised - Dan describes his demeanor perfectly, except that he still projects youth, vitality and, oh what the heck, he's fairly sexy Laurel PS - I also thought Colin was the Diggle of the band in terms of ageing and hair :-) - no comparison musically speaking ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #136 *******************************