From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #133 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, May 12 2000 Volume 03 : Number 133 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Wire In Boston ["Robert Jazz" ] Turnout Question [Jonathan Land ] boston show.... [Rain19c@aol.com] Re: Wire In Boston [Joshua ] Re: Americans and Marxism ["tube disaster" ] Re: Americans and Marxism ["tube disaster" ] Re: inertia tour ["tube disaster" ] Re: Wire at the Metro ["tube disaster" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] Re: Americans and Marxism [Brian Barnett ] Re: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["tube disaster" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] Re: Re[3]: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] re: Re: Diggle [Jack Steinmann ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:44:12 EDT From: "Robert Jazz" Subject: Re: Wire In Boston Hi, There's two carloads of us going up to the Boston show, from Providence, for the tomorrow night. I wondered also why there was little mention of the Boston show on here, but then, I guess I'm usually more of a reader of this list with only the occasional posting every now and again. I can't believe I finally get to see Wire!! - - Robert ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:05:15 -0400 From: Jonathan Land Subject: Turnout Question I'm just curious, how has attendance generally been at the shows? Jon - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- http://incomplete.net If it's not here, it's incomplete! jland@incomplete.net Guinea Pig cam available (sometimes) at http://incomplete.net/espicam.html - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:36:18 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: boston show.... hi there all.... ive been lurking on the list for awhile...i just started listening to wire back this past october when i bought a used copy of chairs missing, and loved it. did anyone notice how hard it is to get pink flag on cd now? it must be out of print in the states, cause i had to go to freakin ebay to get it. so, to get to the point, i am going to the boston show, but i dont know anyone else who is going. outside of this list, i didnt know wire fans existed. blah. its probably cause im a bit young (19) and every on this list seems to have known about wire when they were still making records as a group. anyway, i cant wait for the show, does anyone know if they are selling the third day cd or shirt at the show? michael. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:54:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Re: Wire In Boston On Thu, 11 May 2000, Robert Jazz wrote: > Hi, > There's two carloads of us going up to the Boston show, from Providence, for > the tomorrow night. It's people like you who make get-togethers difficult. We discussed this a month ago. Oy. > I wondered also why there was little mention of the Boston show on here, but > then, I guess I'm usually more of a reader of this list with only the > occasional posting every now and again. It's because you didn't post anything and didn't respond when other people did. > I can't believe I finally get to see Wire!! Yeah, the show could such and I'll still get to see how the appear in person. That's a visceral aspect that you just don't get from listening to recordings. Also, I'm curious about how the sound will change. - -Joshua ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:36:56 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism Actually, I honestly wondered what he was referring to with "S.F." To be perfectly honest, I'm waaaaaay too fucking political to even dare broach the subject with anyone on this list (let's just say that I never got around to outgrowing certain aspects of anarchopunk). Dan >On Thu, 11 May 2000, tube disaster wrote: > >> "San Fransisco" or "science fiction"? Or both? >> >> >A.J. you must live S.F. > >You two are going a long way to prove her point. > >-Joshua > >> > >> >"A.J. Wells" wrote: >> > >> >> Most Americans are not aware of the political content of ANYTHING... >> except >> >> for the banal self-serving opinions that spout on talk radio and during >> >> election years... none of us think anything of waking up in the morning, >> >> having our mood defined by CNBC, going out for a Starbucks and a Noahs >> >> Bagel, going to work for The Gap, consuming entertainment at the Sony >> >> Metreon and then going back to check our investments on ETrade until we >> fall >> >> asleep and dream of our upcoming IPO... nothing political there mmm? >> >> >> >> Aj >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Ciscon, Ray >> >> To: idealcopy@smoe.org >> >> Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:20 PM >> >> Subject: Americans and Marxism >> >> >> >> >We American's would never run the Gang of Four out of the country for >> their >> >> >Marxist ideology. The first amendment to our Constitution covers stuff >> like >> >> >that. >> >> > >> >> >Sadly, most American's are thoroughly and completely unaware of the >> >> >political content of music. If it's got a good beat and you can dance to >> >> it, >> >> >or if it 'ROCKS' (said with full and complete sarcasm), it might be a >> big >> >> >hit, even if it's just a musical adaptation of 'The Internationale'. >> >> > >> >> >I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political >> dogma >> >> >in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost universally >> >> >left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got their >> >> >political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question their >> >> >sanity. >> >> > >> >> >I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them >> are >> >> no >> >> >smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional enjoyment >> >> >(from happy to sad) from music is a sign of an impending >> >> > >> >> >Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, >> Rage >> >> >Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates who >> >> >never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated >> themselves >> >> >to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the >> >> masses. >> >> >Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 Rage >> >> >Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between >> >> Communism, >> >> >Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. >> >> > >> >> >We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish >> t-shirts >> >> >would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one with >> >> Che' >> >> >on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage >> >> >Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to be >> >> >cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... they >> >> >'rocked', and that was enough for him. >> >> > >> >> >Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... but >> >> I'm >> >> >glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a >> >> >definite appeal for me! >> >> > >> >> >Cheers, >> >> > >> >> >Ray ( I don't get my ideas about religion from Sinead O'Connor either) >> >> >Ciscon >> >> >Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager >> >> >Comark, Inc. >> >> > >> >> >In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: >> >> >The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 >> >> >** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support >> Center. >> >> >** >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] >> >> >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:34 AM >> >> >To: A.J. Wells >> >> >Cc: Alyce Ornella; idealcopy@smoe.org >> >> >Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew >> >> > >> >> >> I wish we would see some more from the Gang Of Four... their view of >> the >> >> >> world as a disorienting forest of images in which ones hopes and >> dreams >> >> >are >> >> >> used to hold the soul captive in the Market Of The Senses holds far >> more >> >> >> true today than it did when they were in their heyday... but Gill/King >> >> >> havent seemed to be able to tap into that thing in their recent >> records >> >> >> including Shrikwrapped and Mall... I think they might be a bit too old >> to >> >> >be >> >> >> able to critique modern culture at this point... but there is still NO >> >> >sound >> >> >> in rock like Andy Gills guitar and probably will never be... I think I >> >> >would >> >> >> be less likely to want to see the GOF live than Wire, because their >> work >> >> >was >> >> >> sort of tied to that time and there is an element of protest that >> doesnt >> >> >age >> >> >> well... but I would give it a go see... >> >> > >> >> >What is it with Americans and Gang of Four? As devout Marxists I'd have >> >> >thought you'd have had them run out of the country! 8-) >> >> >Totally agree with the above: tho there protest doth seem a little dated >> >> >you can't help finding At Home He Feels Like A Tourist, their homage to >> >> >alienation, ironically comforting (does that make sense?). >> >> >Try thinking Steve Albini's guitar style without the above Go4 track. >> its >> >> >impossible. Now, can anyone explain to me just how gill got to produce >> >> >RHChilli Peppers early album? RHCPs are not what I would call >> politically >> >> >progressive - wiping your penis on a female journos face doesn't quite >> sit >> >> >with maoism somehow. >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >___ ___ > >http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) > >--- --- > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:55:10 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism >I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political dogma >in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost universally >left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got their >political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question their >sanity. And after I said I'd refuse to discuss politics *sigh* ... I'm glad this subject didn't come up at the table last night -- bad enough that I learned that all the rest of you grew up as Styx fanatics. Anyway, when the subject has come up on other lists I've noted that I don't *expect* political content (agreeable to me or otherwise) in music, but when I get it, it's like icing on the cake. That includes the Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, Redskins, Clash, Chumbawamba, Consolidated, Alabama 3, the Dils & the anarchopunk hordes of yesteryear. (And yes, they *do* tend to be "almost universally left-wing." If you want the opposing viewpoint, be my guest & go listen to Ted Nugent & Skrewdriver till your ears bleed. Me, I'll stick with stuff that sounds halfway decent.) But, no, I don't go to my music collection for political guidance, & I didn't when I was a teen-ager. (I don't go *anywhere* for political guidance except my own experiences & perceptions, whether the commentator is Joe Strummer or Rush Limbaugh or Noam Chomsky or William F Buckley.) > >I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them are no >smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional enjoyment >(from happy to sad) from music is a sign of an impending You seem to have left out a word here ... > >Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, Rage >Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates who >never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated themselves >to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the masses. >Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 Rage >Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between Communism, >Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. I have no problem with RATM, other than the fact that I don't find their music very interesting. And while I've never had any great admiration for the ruling class or even the bourgeoisie, if indeed they're all "well off young college graduates" (probably not completely accurate, judging from the little I've read) I can't see how that that would automatically disqualify them from finding fault -- even on a CD! -- with the system now in place. Too, probably "95 out of 100 registered voters couldn't tell you the difference between Communism, Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government," so I'm not really sure what your point is. > >We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish t-shirts >would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one with Che' >on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage >Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to be >cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... they >'rocked', and that was enough for him. I'm still missing your point ... I suppose there's a slight chance he'll be inspired to try to find out who this Che dude was. And this would be bad how? > >Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... but I'm >glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a >definite appeal for me! Well, we all have different tastes, but I'd say that the Go4's first one is damned near on a par with Pink Flag as far as debut LPs go. Dan > >Cheers, > >Ray ( I don't get my ideas about religion from Sinead O'Connor either) >Ciscon >Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager >Comark, Inc. > >In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: >The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 >** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. >** > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:34 AM >To: A.J. Wells >Cc: Alyce Ornella; idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew > >> I wish we would see some more from the Gang Of Four... their view of the >> world as a disorienting forest of images in which ones hopes and dreams >are >> used to hold the soul captive in the Market Of The Senses holds far more >> true today than it did when they were in their heyday... but Gill/King >> havent seemed to be able to tap into that thing in their recent records >> including Shrikwrapped and Mall... I think they might be a bit too old to >be >> able to critique modern culture at this point... but there is still NO >sound >> in rock like Andy Gills guitar and probably will never be... I think I >would >> be less likely to want to see the GOF live than Wire, because their work >was >> sort of tied to that time and there is an element of protest that doesnt >age >> well... but I would give it a go see... > >What is it with Americans and Gang of Four? As devout Marxists I'd have >thought you'd have had them run out of the country! 8-) >Totally agree with the above: tho there protest doth seem a little dated >you can't help finding At Home He Feels Like A Tourist, their homage to >alienation, ironically comforting (does that make sense?). >Try thinking Steve Albini's guitar style without the above Go4 track. its >impossible. Now, can anyone explain to me just how gill got to produce >RHChilli Peppers early album? RHCPs are not what I would call politically >progressive - wiping your penis on a female journos face doesn't quite sit >with maoism somehow. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:57:29 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: inertia tour again I was leary to hear that >they would be doing 70's stuff only - Ummm ... Silk Skin Paws, Advantage in Height, Drill, etc. are '80s stuff, unless my memory has completely deserted me. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:04:09 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Wire at the Metro - - >4. Bruce does not look ill, he looks 54. True. Someone -- Jeff? -- had a copy of whatever magazine (The Wire?) has the band on the front cover, & everyone at the table was taken aback at how ghastly he looked in the photo ... my first thought was of the mid-'70s Ernest Borgnine/John Travolta horror movie The Devil's Rain, wherein people's faces start melting at the end. Upon seeing him at the Metro & then getting to meet him as they were leaving (infinite thanks, Charles!), though, I found that he merely looked like a fastidiously intelligent (&, in person, quite gracious) man in his early '50s -- quite a relief, actually, as on that magazine cover I swear he looks like he's at death's door. I think it was the glasses ... I don't think he's wearing them in the photo, & somehow they provide his visage with some focus, or something like that. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:13:43 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. >Dan, > ><< Which brings up an interesting subject -- which re-formed bands *have* > turned out strong work? >> > >It wasn't perfect, but Television's 1992 return (after 14 years) was pretty >good, considering the standards they were bound to be compared with. The >opening track o the Television album, 1880 or so, is right on the button. And >they were still good live. > >Mark Y'know, when I posted that question, I made a mental note (that I haven't had time to carry out) to go back & listen to that disc, which I don't remember much about but retain a somewhat favorable impression of. Instead, I got sidetracked -- appropriately enough, I guess -- dubbing some live early Television stuff ('74-'75) for some guy ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:22:40 -0700 From: Brian Barnett Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism You Ratbastad, don't lie don't lie. tube disaster wrote: > Actually, I honestly wondered what he was referring to with "S.F." To be > perfectly honest, I'm waaaaaay too fucking political to even dare broach the > subject with anyone on this list (let's just say that I never got around to > outgrowing certain aspects of anarchopunk). > > Dan > > >On Thu, 11 May 2000, tube disaster wrote: > > > >> "San Fransisco" or "science fiction"? Or both? > >> > >> >A.J. you must live S.F. > > > >You two are going a long way to prove her point. > > > >-Joshua > > > >> > > >> >"A.J. Wells" wrote: > >> > > >> >> Most Americans are not aware of the political content of ANYTHING... > >> except > >> >> for the banal self-serving opinions that spout on talk radio and > during > >> >> election years... none of us think anything of waking up in the > morning, > >> >> having our mood defined by CNBC, going out for a Starbucks and a Noahs > >> >> Bagel, going to work for The Gap, consuming entertainment at the Sony > >> >> Metreon and then going back to check our investments on ETrade until > we > >> fall > >> >> asleep and dream of our upcoming IPO... nothing political there mmm? > >> >> > >> >> Aj > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: Ciscon, Ray > >> >> To: idealcopy@smoe.org > >> >> Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:20 PM > >> >> Subject: Americans and Marxism > >> >> > >> >> >We American's would never run the Gang of Four out of the country for > >> their > >> >> >Marxist ideology. The first amendment to our Constitution covers > stuff > >> like > >> >> >that. > >> >> > > >> >> >Sadly, most American's are thoroughly and completely unaware of the > >> >> >political content of music. If it's got a good beat and you can dance > to > >> >> it, > >> >> >or if it 'ROCKS' (said with full and complete sarcasm), it might be a > >> big > >> >> >hit, even if it's just a musical adaptation of 'The Internationale'. > >> >> > > >> >> >I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political > >> dogma > >> >> >in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost > universally > >> >> >left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got > their > >> >> >political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question > their > >> >> >sanity. > >> >> > > >> >> >I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them > >> are > >> >> no > >> >> >smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional > enjoyment > >> >> >(from happy to sad) from music is a sign of an impending > >> >> > > >> >> >Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, > >> Rage > >> >> >Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates > who > >> >> >never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated > >> themselves > >> >> >to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the > >> >> masses. > >> >> >Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 > Rage > >> >> >Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between > >> >> Communism, > >> >> >Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. > >> >> > > >> >> >We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish > >> t-shirts > >> >> >would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one > with > >> >> Che' > >> >> >on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage > >> >> >Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to > be > >> >> >cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... > they > >> >> >'rocked', and that was enough for him. > >> >> > > >> >> >Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... > but > >> >> I'm > >> >> >glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a > >> >> >definite appeal for me! > >> >> > > >> >> >Cheers, > >> >> > > >> >> >Ray ( I don't get my ideas about religion from Sinead O'Connor > either) > >> >> >Ciscon > >> >> >Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager > >> >> >Comark, Inc. > >> >> > > >> >> >In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: > >> >> >The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 > >> >> >** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support > >> Center. > >> >> >** > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> >From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] > >> >> >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:34 AM > >> >> >To: A.J. Wells > >> >> >Cc: Alyce Ornella; idealcopy@smoe.org > >> >> >Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew > >> >> > > >> >> >> I wish we would see some more from the Gang Of Four... their view > of > >> the > >> >> >> world as a disorienting forest of images in which ones hopes and > >> dreams > >> >> >are > >> >> >> used to hold the soul captive in the Market Of The Senses holds far > >> more > >> >> >> true today than it did when they were in their heyday... but > Gill/King > >> >> >> havent seemed to be able to tap into that thing in their recent > >> records > >> >> >> including Shrikwrapped and Mall... I think they might be a bit too > old > >> to > >> >> >be > >> >> >> able to critique modern culture at this point... but there is still > NO > >> >> >sound > >> >> >> in rock like Andy Gills guitar and probably will never be... I > think I > >> >> >would > >> >> >> be less likely to want to see the GOF live than Wire, because their > >> work > >> >> >was > >> >> >> sort of tied to that time and there is an element of protest that > >> doesnt > >> >> >age > >> >> >> well... but I would give it a go see... > >> >> > > >> >> >What is it with Americans and Gang of Four? As devout Marxists I'd > have > >> >> >thought you'd have had them run out of the country! 8-) > >> >> >Totally agree with the above: tho there protest doth seem a little > dated > >> >> >you can't help finding At Home He Feels Like A Tourist, their homage > to > >> >> >alienation, ironically comforting (does that make sense?). > >> >> >Try thinking Steve Albini's guitar style without the above Go4 track. > >> its > >> >> >impossible. Now, can anyone explain to me just how gill got to > produce > >> >> >RHChilli Peppers early album? RHCPs are not what I would call > >> politically > >> >> >progressive - wiping your penis on a female journos face doesn't > quite > >> sit > >> >> >with maoism somehow. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > > >___ ___ > > > >http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) > > > >--- --- > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:22:32 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. >> Which brings up an interesting subject -- which re-formed bands *have* >> turned out strong work? Second-incarnation Wire are the most obvious >> example, for purposes of this list ... I've also expressed extreme fondness >> before for the Buzzcocks' '93 comeback LP, Trade Test Transmission, & the >> Raincoats' return from the dead 2 years later, Looking in the Shadows -- 2 >> of the best albums of the '90s. And with the various lineup changes, I >> suppose that at least 1 of the last 3 Killing Jokes -- Extremities, >> Pandemonium & Democracy -- counts as well. > >Pere Ubu have released two cracking last studio albums. Agree Buzzcocks >TTT was good - if you edit out the Diggle bits it makes an oustanding >album. I've not got the lp but saw Vic Goddard doing his new lp on the >tv live and that sounded like a continuation of his excellent form. Am I >allowed to mention Rudimentary Peni again? Jesus, yes. I think I justified my existence last week when a Buzzcocks listmember said that my praise of the Peni led him to pick up a copy of Cacaphony that he chanced across in a shop, which in turn blew him so totally away that he was desperate to find their earlier stuff (esp. after he found an MP3 of something from one of the 7"s). Death Church, in particular, is like the world's greatest goth album played at something like 38 rpm, & the 2 7"s sound like Robert Smith leading a thrash band ... utterly brilliant. They're working on a new EP, I know. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:30:05 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew >>Like Archers of Loaf? In my opinion their sound is similar to >>cross-breeding Wire with The Replacements. "Strangled By The Stereo >Wire" >>particularly comes to mind. > >I'm with ya Carl. To me, All the Nations Airports in particular, is very >reminescent of WIRE. Anyone around here like Polvo? What about Guided by >Voices? Archers of Loaf I've been meaning to try out for years (the fact that our sometimes taste-challenged weekend section editor loves them has not been much of a motivator). Polvo I've never heard. GBV I started getting into a few months ago ... nice show they did in Memphis back in November. They didn't do themselves any favors a couple of nights ago on Conan O'Brien, though -- Hold on Hope is exactly what I suppose Robert Pollard wants it to be: a boring ballad to wave cigarette lighters to. > > >>Ken wrote: >>Indeed. Band of Susans is one of my favorite rock >>bands, and Poss sent me a copy of Nicholas Collins' >>"100 of the world's most beautiful melodies" (title >>recalled incorrectly, I'm sure) when I bought two >>old BoS vinyls off of him via mail. > >BoS were one of the great guitar bands that hardly anyone had ever heard >of. Poss is a cool guy. I emailed home one time to see what the band was >up to...and he mails me a BoS t-shirt out of the blue. They were quite >interesting live; if you ever wanted to immerse your self in total >hook-ladden-feedback-sensorround, these were the folks that could do it. Agreed. I'm still trying to deal with the fact that I actually saw them here (Little Rock) about 7 years ago. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:32:32 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) >Depends on which version of "Temptation" you're talking about. >The re-recorded 1987 version on _Substance_ has a woeful >80's tinniness thanks to Stephen Hague's oh-so-dated >engineering/production style (did that guy drop off the face of the >earth or what), He's on a desert island somewhere with Mike Thorne. but I'd say the original, >continuously-on-the-point-of-collapse recording of it from >81/82 (or therabouts) is one of the most touching, fragile >love songs I've ever heard in my life, and I imagine >I'd say the same thing 25 years from now. Well said. Also, somehow, at the time I perceived it as containing elements of some sort of final goodbye to Ian. Dan > > -d.w. > >Jack Steinmann wrote: > >> I don't know. "Temptation" sounds very dated to me. "New Dawn Fades" sounds... timeless. >> >> Jack >> >> On Tuesday, May 9, 2000, giluz@nettalk.com wrote: >> >Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical >> >preferences, as far as it comes to Wire > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:42:33 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: wire in chicago Yes, but some of us were curious -- which one were you? Dan, the one who stole Jim & William Reid's old hair >ROCK AND ROLL!!!! > >-alyce >whew, i just got home from the show. i'm delirious. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:45:15 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. Just keep an eye on the used bins ... I don't know about the 2nd one (assuming that there was one -- I don't quite remember), but Evergreen (from '97) should be pretty findable for cheap. Dan >Well that just shows how completely out of the loop that I am. > >> From: "tube disaster" >> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:23:04 -0700 >> To: "Ideal Copy Mailing list" >> Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. >> >> >> Wasn't there some talk of an Echo & >>> The Bunnymen comeback? >> >> I'd say so, since the reunited version (minus, of course, the late Pete >> DeFreitas, whose name I probably just misspelled) have done at least 2 >> albums in the last 3 or so years. >> >> Dan >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:48:21 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[3]: BBQ some sacred cows. >>Pere Ubu have released two cracking last studio albums. Agree Buzzcocks TTT was good - if you edit out the Diggle bits it makes an oustanding album. I've not got the lp but saw Vic Goddard doing his new lp on the tv live and that sounded like a continuation of his excellent form. Am I allowed to mention Rudimentary Peni again? >>>> editing out steve diggle is always a sound move. his 3 tracks on the 3rd album (tension) are so bad its untrue , whereas shelley's stuff is fabulous. flag of convenience , you have got to be joking.<< Oh, hardly. If you edit out Diggle, you'd have a Buzzcocks back catalogue without Harmony in My Head or Running Free, among others, & much as I like Pete Shelley's work, the band would be the poorer without many of Diggle's contributions (granted, he *is* far more erratic than Pete). As for F*O*C, no, they're not the Buzzcocks, but then I didn't expect them to be. I've got no problem with rockish pop, myself. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:51:07 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[3]: BBQ some sacred cows. >> >>>> editing out steve diggle is always a sound move. his 3 tracks on the 3rd album (tension) are so bad its untrue , whereas shelley's stuff is fabulous. flag of convenience , you have got to be joking. > >And Love is nice/love is ice off of Love Bites is a couplet and a half. Decent song, actually, & *damn* did it hit home during a particularly vulnerable time in my life about 10 years ago, but I digress. >> >> so what was this vic godard tv thing then? p >> >It was ages ago now. it was that nme week at the old town and country >club when the bad seeds, etc played. goddard's band inc. Paul Cook and >Edwyn Collins...surely the first time that pair have appeared on stage >together?> Depends on when it was. Paul played drums on Edwyn's late-night US TV (Leno or Letterman) performance of A Girl Like You back when it was a minor hit 5 or so years ago. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:55:51 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Americans and Marxism Am I missing some joke here? What the fuck are you talking about? If I knew your native language, I'd attempt to communicate in it. Dan - - >You Ratbastad, don't lie don't lie. > >tube disaster wrote: > >> Actually, I honestly wondered what he was referring to with "S.F." To be >> perfectly honest, I'm waaaaaay too fucking political to even dare broach the >> subject with anyone on this list (let's just say that I never got around to >> outgrowing certain aspects of anarchopunk). >> >> Dan >> >> >On Thu, 11 May 2000, tube disaster wrote: >> > >> >> "San Fransisco" or "science fiction"? Or both? >> >> >> >> >A.J. you must live S.F. >> > >> >You two are going a long way to prove her point. >> > >> >-Joshua >> > >> >> > >> >> >"A.J. Wells" wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Most Americans are not aware of the political content of ANYTHING... >> >> except >> >> >> for the banal self-serving opinions that spout on talk radio and >> during >> >> >> election years... none of us think anything of waking up in the >> morning, >> >> >> having our mood defined by CNBC, going out for a Starbucks and a Noahs >> >> >> Bagel, going to work for The Gap, consuming entertainment at the Sony >> >> >> Metreon and then going back to check our investments on ETrade until >> we >> >> fall >> >> >> asleep and dream of our upcoming IPO... nothing political there mmm? >> >> >> >> >> >> Aj >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Ciscon, Ray >> >> >> To: idealcopy@smoe.org >> >> >> Date: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:20 PM >> >> >> Subject: Americans and Marxism >> >> >> >> >> >> >We American's would never run the Gang of Four out of the country for >> >> their >> >> >> >Marxist ideology. The first amendment to our Constitution covers >> stuff >> >> like >> >> >> >that. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Sadly, most American's are thoroughly and completely unaware of the >> >> >> >political content of music. If it's got a good beat and you can dance >> to >> >> >> it, >> >> >> >or if it 'ROCKS' (said with full and complete sarcasm), it might be a >> >> big >> >> >> >hit, even if it's just a musical adaptation of 'The Internationale'. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >I would like to think that most Americans who do recognize political >> >> dogma >> >> >> >in music, i.e. Go4, Billy Bragg, Easterhouse, etc., almost >> universally >> >> >> >left-wing BTW, are smart enough to ignore it. If anyone I knew got >> their >> >> >> >political ideas from pop music, I'd have to laugh, then question >> their >> >> >> >sanity. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >I've met a lot of musicians, and believe me the vast majority of them >> >> are >> >> >> no >> >> >> >smarter than you or me. Getting anything other than emotional >> enjoyment >> >> >> >(from happy to sad) from music is a sign of an impending >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Which brings up one of the funniest things in American popular music, >> >> Rage >> >> >> >Against the Machine. A band full of well off young college graduates >> who >> >> >> >never worked a day of 'real work' in their lives have dedicated >> >> themselves >> >> >> >to bringing their message of Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought to the >> >> >> masses. >> >> >> >Together they can 'Fight the Man'! My guess is that 95 out of 100 >> Rage >> >> >> >Against the Machine fans couldn't tell you the difference between >> >> >> Communism, >> >> >> >Socialism, and democratic/republican forms of government. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >We had an intern in our office who, when he wasn't wearing Phish >> >> t-shirts >> >> >> >would wear his Rage Against the Machine t-shirt. You know, the one >> with >> >> >> Che' >> >> >> >on it... He had no idea who Che' was, but he BOUGHT the shirt at Rage >> >> >> >Against the Machine concert, and he paid $50 to get it, so it had to >> be >> >> >> >cool. He had absolutely no idea about RaTM's political stances... >> they >> >> >> >'rocked', and that was enough for him. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Getting back to Go4, I never saw the appeal in any of their music... >> but >> >> >> I'm >> >> >> >glad that Dave Allen left the band to form Shriekback... They have a >> >> >> >definite appeal for me! >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Cheers, >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Ray ( I don't get my ideas about religion from Sinead O'Connor >> either) >> >> >> >Ciscon >> >> >> >Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager >> >> >> >Comark, Inc. >> >> >> > >> >> >> >In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: >> >> >> >The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 >> >> >> >** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support >> >> Center. >> >> >> >** >> >> >> > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] >> >> >> >Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:34 AM >> >> >> >To: A.J. Wells >> >> >> >Cc: Alyce Ornella; idealcopy@smoe.org >> >> >> >Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> I wish we would see some more from the Gang Of Four... their view >> of >> >> the >> >> >> >> world as a disorienting forest of images in which ones hopes and >> >> dreams >> >> >> >are >> >> >> >> used to hold the soul captive in the Market Of The Senses holds far >> >> more >> >> >> >> true today than it did when they were in their heyday... but >> Gill/King >> >> >> >> havent seemed to be able to tap into that thing in their recent >> >> records >> >> >> >> including Shrikwrapped and Mall... I think they might be a bit too >> old >> >> to >> >> >> >be >> >> >> >> able to critique modern culture at this point... but there is still >> NO >> >> >> >sound >> >> >> >> in rock like Andy Gills guitar and probably will never be... I >> think I >> >> >> >would >> >> >> >> be less likely to want to see the GOF live than Wire, because their >> >> work >> >> >> >was >> >> >> >> sort of tied to that time and there is an element of protest that >> >> doesnt >> >> >> >age >> >> >> >> well... but I would give it a go see... >> >> >> > >> >> >> >What is it with Americans and Gang of Four? As devout Marxists I'd >> have >> >> >> >thought you'd have had them run out of the country! 8-) >> >> >> >Totally agree with the above: tho there protest doth seem a little >> dated >> >> >> >you can't help finding At Home He Feels Like A Tourist, their homage >> to >> >> >> >alienation, ironically comforting (does that make sense?). >> >> >> >Try thinking Steve Albini's guitar style without the above Go4 track. >> >> its >> >> >> >impossible. Now, can anyone explain to me just how gill got to >> produce >> >> >> >RHChilli Peppers early album? RHCPs are not what I would call >> >> politically >> >> >> >progressive - wiping your penis on a female journos face doesn't >> quite >> >> sit >> >> >> >with maoism somehow. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >___ ___ >> > >> >http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) >> > >> >--- --- >> > > ------------------------------ Date: 12 May 2000 02:08:58 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re: Diggle I thought Steve Diggle had works of great inspiration on the first and third albums, e.g. 'Autonomy' and 'You Know You Can't Help It,' respectively. But 'Running Free?' I don't see it. Jack Dan wrote: If you edit out Diggle, you'd have a Buzzcocks back catalogue >without Harmony in My Head or Running Free, among others, & much as I like >Pete Shelley's work, the band would be the poorer without many of Diggle's >contributions ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #133 *******************************