From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #128 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, May 10 2000 Volume 03 : Number 128 Today's Subjects: ----------------- What's behind the teeth?: BBQ some sacred cows continued ["Michel Faber" ] London Gigs [Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk] What's behind the teeth?: BBQ some sacred cows ["Michel Faber" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. [John Roberts ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. [Carl Archer ] New Yawkas [John Roberts ] RE: BBQ some sacred cows ["webmaster" ] RE: BBQ some sacred cows [John Roberts ] RE: BBQ some sacred cows ["webmaster" ] RE: BBQ some sacred cows [Wireviews ] RE: Chicago Ideal Copyists! ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Pessimism [Mark Short ] RE: perfect kiss in the ointment ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows ["tube disaster" ] Re: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. [John Roberts ] Word from the "non-listener" [Wireviews ] theoldwiththenew [Jim Dingus ] Re: Chicago Ideal Copyists! ["ian barrett" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows ["Stephen Jackson" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) [Dave Walker ] the perfect kiss is the kiss of death [Joe Turner ] Re: theoldwiththenew ["Alyce Ornella" ] just got in to chicago ... [Pleaskillme@aol.com] Re: theoldwiththenew [Brian Barnett ] new to the list ["Chao, Tom" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["A.J. Wells" Subject: What's behind the teeth?: BBQ some sacred cows continued I quote from the Boston Globe interview with Wire. Colin Newman is doing his best, as always, to come across like some sort of prickly art terrorist: >"We've never really seriously played the game in terms of >audience-pleasing, or market-pleasing, to be honest," >says singer-guitarist Colin Newman, who is back with >Wire for the quartet's first American tour since 1988, >coming to the Roxy Friday. "So that means we alternately >delight and frustrate, depending on who you are, and >your perception of what it is... I don't think Wire have ever >been in the entertainment industry, I think they've always >been doing art... We're just doing art all the time." Elsewhere in the interview, though, he can be found reassuring Americans that Wire are gonna kick ass and that they've worked hard to be an "efficient" deliverer of the old goods: >"It is very, very focused, and on a good night, we can sorta >blow away all comers, really," says Newman, 45. "In the >'70s, we weren't always a super-efficient live band. We >could be good. We were always a bit iffy. We worked more >this time on making the things really effective for a live >presentation. And the choice of material has gone around >that... " His comments on the supposed 'newness' of playing old material could be lifted wholesale from a Rolling Stones interview. Substitute the name 'Keith Richards' for Colin Newman, and 'The Rolling Stones' for Wire, and there's no difference: >Indeed, stepping back into Wire has been quite easy, >Newman says. "Within 10 minutes, we can be making the >Wire noise on a fairly convincing level. The mechanics of it >are not very hard, and we have played a lot together." >"Thank God you can't play the way you played in 1977, >because when you played it in 1977, that's how it felt, >and you don't feel that way anymore," he says. "It's >playing things in a way which we feel comfortable with >now, and bringing with it the revised perspective that we >all have from the work that we've been engaged in over >the past 10 years." And note the word 'comfortable'... Finally, the thorny question of new material: >And how long will their interest in art keep them >interested in being Wire? "If we're going to make new >material, then we need a solid period of time to do that, >and that will be some time in the future, after America," >Lewis says. "The way we're doing it at the moment is a >very simple stage-to-stage. Everybody's got a life. What's >important is everybody wants to have fun. We don't have >any commitment to anybody in terms of a record company >or anyone else. We can do just what we wish at the >moment, and that's quite the way we'd like to keep it." In other words, making up new stuff is too hard, especially now that we've all got agendas outside Wire. But this tour of America is OK, it's fun, because it's quite easy playing old stuff. Again, please let me stress that I don't think there's anything wrong with any of this. Wire have a perfect right to play their old material and they do it well; they're making a lot of people happy. BUT, BUT, BUT I WISH THEY DIDN'T KEEP PRETENDING IT'S SOME TERRIBLY CHALLENGING ACT OF ARTY "RECONTEXTUALISING". The Boston Globe, thoroughly sucked in (again), ends the article with the caption: >Wire: still angry and cerebral at the same time. Bollocks! Wire: seasoned professionals playing what comes easiest. Good luck to 'em, but less "shit behind the teeth", please. Michel Faber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:43:49 +0100 From: Chris.Ray@medas.co.uk Subject: London Gigs I saw Papa M at the Garage the other day. IMO a terrible gig, but everyone else seemed to love it. The Garage is full of history and character but it really do with a lick of paint. Round the corner is The Union Chapel, another excellent venue. Oh yeah, I'm going on the 28th. Chris. "Wilson, Paul" on 10/05/2000 07:48:16 To: "'Idealcopy Submissions'" cc: (bcc: Chris Ray/Finance/MEDAS) Subject: London Gigs So, who's going to any of the gigs in London at the end of the month? I'll be going to the one on the Saturday (27th May). Does anyone know the venue, The Garage, and the surrounding area? Is there a decent pub nearby, in which to meet up? Paul KW ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:46:55 +0100 From: "Michel Faber" Subject: What's behind the teeth?: BBQ some sacred cows Even as I was sending my last email on this subject, I noticed that I had reproduced a quote from Graham Lewis in such a way that it appeared to be a quote from Colin Newman. It's Graham who says, "Thank God you can't play the way you played in 1977, etc" This in no way affects the argument about Wire that I present in my piece, but I believe in attributing quotes accurately and apologise for my slip-up. Best wishes, Michel Faber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:17:05 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: erasure remix Thanks Paul - what is the title of the track and what is it on the b side of, please? I've been to see Erasure too, and I don't even have the excuse of thinking that Wir were supporting (although Heaven 17 were, and they were no bad thing, off and on). Sorry Michael, still can't see much similarity with between Vince and Andy's cheery uptempo synthpop and much of Wire's output. 'Nice from here' perhaps? When I talked of a mismatch I was thinking more of the crowd though - Wir would've been soda-bottled off, n'est pas? I had a recoil CD given me and sent it to Oxfam, I think. Couldn't get on with it at all. DM have had their moments, and i'm familiar with 'pimpf' but IMO it is bugger all like anything wire have done, all orchestra and arpeggio ... maybe my ears are just shot away from years of abuse. Re Highbury - I used to live nearby. There is a place called the 'Flounder and Firkin' on holloway road,on the same side as the garage, that might serve to meet in. Also the Hen and Chickens,which is on the highbury roundabout at the St Paul's road exit. And I'll try to find out the name of the real old muso haunt on the other side of the holloway road, which might be worth considering. I'm going on Sunday - just got my 3 tickets, which cost be a booking/'handling' (don't you just love that term) fee of nearly NINE quid. Leeches. H ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:14:35 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. > As for what instruments Wire should play in the future...I don't care...as long as > they move into new territory, they could play kazoos for all I care. Why not, the Fall always use Kazoos to good effect. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 07:17:09 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. Descendants might be able to accomplish that. Their 'Everything Sucks' album (which was about 10 years after their previous 'ALL' album) sounds as if the time never passed. I made it a point to catch them at the Warped Tour (a couple of years ago) and was not disappointed. They have said that they haven't counted out getting back together again. I've recently heard rumors about the possible reunions of The Replacements, The Smiths, and Talking Heads. Although I love each band, I would not be looking forward to such reformations. Wasn't there some talk of an Echo & The Bunnymen comeback? Now if The (English) Beat were to get together again that would be another story. Carl > From: "tube disaster" > Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:27:44 -0700 > To: "Ideal Copy Mailing list" > Subject: Re: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. > > Which brings up an interesting subject -- which re-formed bands *have* > turned out strong work? Second-incarnation Wire are the most obvious > example, for purposes of this list ... I've also expressed extreme fondness > before for the Buzzcocks' '93 comeback LP, Trade Test Transmission, & the > Raincoats' return from the dead 2 years later, Looking in the Shadows -- 2 > of the best albums of the '90s. And with the various lineup changes, I > suppose that at least 1 of the last 3 Killing Jokes -- Extremities, > Pandemonium & Democracy -- counts as well. > > Now, *if* Wire stay together at least long enough to produce another album, > would they be capable of having achieved the above rare feat *twice*? Has > that ever been done before (again, I'm not sure of just how to evaluate > Killing Joke in all of this)? > > Dan > >> Reformed bands have a long tradition of turning out weak albums made up in > the studio instead of worked out properly, over time, in front of an > audience. Suppose, for a moment, that Wire choose to record new material, > again. Would you rather that they had done so before this tour? Not after > they've learned how to play together again, tried out the odd new song live, > and generally rebuilt their internal musical rapport? >> >> I think it's a little early to call Wire on the carpet for anything. > Comparisons to the Rolling Stones are suspect too, since their tours are all > about MONEY, and Wire have never displayed any inclination to enter into any > endeavor to get rich... >> >> >> Jack >> >> >> On Tuesday, May 9, 2000, Michel Faber wrote: >> Colin Newman sounds like a marketing exec when he >>> says: "People should be aware that there is a finite period during >>> which we will be able to present this material with enough conviction >>> to satisfy our own exacting demands" (translation: Hurry, hurry, >>> catch us now before we get fed up with playing old stuff); Graham >>> Lewis says "This is the only Wire retrospective"; Bruce Gilbert says: >>> "I don't think any of us entertain doing THIS version of Wire for very >>> long". Fine, my best wishes to them, but let's not pretend they're not >>> trying to lure the punters with a limited-edition nostalgia >>> trip. >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:36:14 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: New Yawkas > okay new yawkas, let's start chanting "wire play the 15th" > As this is one of my faves I will not be happy if you manage to get them to play it over there. 8-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 06:35:17 -0500 From: "webmaster" Subject: RE: BBQ some sacred cows > What IS wrong is when they try to pass this off as something terribly daring > or cool. (Robert Gotobed: "For Wire, this is radical") This is right on it! And I think Jim DeRo said it too last night about "Mercy" from the New EP (which, Jim, I have had for you since Feb!!!). The only "reinvention" about this incarnation is the external context in which Wire have decided to parade in; Their justification is that the rest of the world has finally caught up to them. Mogwai, Silo, all that Kitty-yo post-rock, These 'rock' bands are now che cool thus Wire can reappear and continue to be the che coolest Rock band ever. They themselves don't - and I'd like to stress this - have the Technique for altering, tweaking and reinventing their material. Side note - Post Rock is beat combo without the posturing... which of course is a posture in and of itself. The line is Wire - My Bloody Valentine - Tortoise - Kitty Yo Artists (or something like that). Now, I will disagree with Nostalgia is a Bad Thing theory, since, if you listen to anything more than once, then surely it is a Nostalgia trip. (and for an LP like Pink Flag, I think some of us have spent a few thousand e tickets on that ride?!?) Of course, on each revisitation we tell ourselves that it's still "fresh" and offers something "new". Right. Thus, isn't all of rock-n-roll, all of the music industry a Nostalgia act? Are the Mogwai's of the world more relevant than the Orbitals'? My Bloody Valentines'? Wire's? ...Than Gentle Giant? Depends on what floor you got off on, right? (There must be a theory that whatever music one truly into clicks while in Junior High is what you are ultimately shaped by for the rest of your life (really, think on this!). If you've NEVER seen Wire live, then this is a new experience, isn't it, and there certainly is no nostalgia in that! "It's better to burn out than fade away" IS the most tired cliche in Rock. Of course, what may justify Revival is Self-Deprecation. Let's take Styx (or fill-in-band-here). (Granted if you always thought they sucked, then the fact that they suck now shouldn't be a surprise - or rebuttal). If they put on a tour and said "we've gotten back together after years and wrote a few new things and decided that we still had the spark" we'd all yawn and lift our feet. But instead they've gone on the road, played only the old hits, and delivered them with as much conviction as their 50 year old bodies can deliver. Nostalgia. Sure. But would you have it any other way? Ultimtely Art always gets thrown out the window and Entertainment enters the foray. Roger Waters, The Who, Eric Idle, - Wire - shit they're all doing the same thing. They're providing us with Entertainment and the assholes are the ones running around trying to justify it's existence as some Art-Form. That, my friends, is a load of crap. All Wire are offering right now is something they haven't in a very long time - Playing live, Playing Very old material. If they started this trip using The First Letter as square one, I might feel different. But they haven't. charles / wmo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:05:50 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: RE: BBQ some sacred cows > "Mercy" from the New EP (which, Jim, I have had for you since Feb!!!). The > only "reinvention" about this incarnation is the external context in which > Wire have decided to parade in; Their justification is that the rest of the > world has finally caught up to them. Mogwai, Silo, all that Kitty-yo > post-rock, These 'rock' bands are now che cool thus Wire can reappear and > continue to be the che coolest Rock band ever. They themselves don't - and > I'd like to stress this - have the Technique for altering, tweaking and > reinventing their material. i suggest you listen to the new CD again and compare it to the original versions. ok, they're still playing the same guitars and hitting drums but the arrangements are definitely different albeit only slightly. wire last time out did most definitely tweak their material i.e. the mute stuff when they played live. if you didn;t see them last time listen to IBTABA or the tracks on the live buzz 12" > > Side note - Post Rock is beat combo without the posturing... which of course > is a posture in and of itself. The line is Wire - My Bloody Valentine - > Tortoise - Kitty Yo Artists (or something like that). I can't remember what the name of the post rock band I saw in Leicester a couple of years ago but it was the most boring gig Ive been to since the mighty lemon drops. beat combo with the posturing more like. it sounded like firehose played at 16rpm without vocals, and played by the most self-congratulatory, self-indulgent, smug, middle class hippies since genesis were at the peak of their satanic powers. > > Ultimtely Art always gets thrown out the window and Entertainment enters the > foray. Roger Waters, The Who, Eric Idle, - Wire - shit they're all doing the > same thing. They're providing us with Entertainment and the assholes are the > ones running around trying to justify it's existence as some Art-Form. That, > my friends, is a load of crap. > > All Wire are offering right now is something they haven't in a very long > time - Playing live, Playing Very old material. If they started this trip > using The First Letter as square one, I might feel different. But they > haven't. Agree that Wire are ultimately entertainment regardless of what 'arty' pretensions they'd like to think of themselves as possessing. It's what comes of being old, having been to art school and being able to shock music journos circa late 70s by name dropping Marcel Duchamp. I mean, who's shocked by dadaism and/or surrealism nowadays? Art, asthetics...yawn. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:20:34 -0500 From: "webmaster" Subject: RE: BBQ some sacred cows > wire last time out did most definitely tweak their material i.e. the mute > stuff when they played live. if you didn;t see them last time listen to > IBTABA or the tracks on the live buzz 12" Not really. If they tweaked it, that is ONLY because they could NEVER replicate what they did in the studio on stage. After listening to hours of live material from 87 and 88, I still hold my opinion of Live Wire being Monochromatic, or as Dave so eloquently refered to as "Black and White". As Bruce said to me after the RFH gig - "Wire make A noise" c ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 06:31:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: RE: BBQ some sacred cows - --- webmaster wrote: > This is right on it! And I think Jim DeRo said it > too last night about > "Mercy" from the New EP (which, Jim, I have had for > you since Feb!!!). The > only "reinvention" about this incarnation is the > external context in which > Wire have decided to parade in; Their justification > is that the rest of the > world has finally caught up to them. Perhaps disagreement within the Wire camp was as much to blame for the lack of new material than anything. Did they originally want to make the '70s/'80s stuff a 'stepping stone', or simply state that 'replay' was all the "new" Wire was to be? Was any decision unanimous? Knowing Wire, that seems unlikely... Mind you, I guess logistics present the biggest problem, what with Graham living in Sweden, Colin running Swim~, Bruce scaring the shit out of everyone with his shed and Robert running a farm. However, now they are in the US, around each-other for a period of time, at least something new should appear. *If* that's their intention. > (really, think on this!). If you've NEVER seen Wire > live, then this is a new > experience, isn't it, and there certainly is no > nostalgia in that! RFH was actually the first time I've seen the band live, although they were good, I found He Said and Immersion to be more interesting, if not quite as musically adept. As far as Wire goes, Another the Letter and Advantage in Height were fantastic, but some tracks, like Mercy were simply faded facsimiles from EMI, at least for me. 12XU... well, it was /amusing/... especially in RFH! I still enjoyed it though. However if the path is as straight as it seems at the moment, I'll go to one of the Garage gigs and then wait for some new stuff before trooping out again. That is, assuming there will be any Wire things to troop to after May. > and the assholes are the > ones running around trying to justify it's existence > as some Art-Form. That, > my friends, is a load of crap. Even funnier is the fact that Colin (and the rest of Wire) is obviously still playing with the press (as they have always done), sometimes contradicting previous comments, generally having a laugh and offering *great* soundbites. But too many people are taking the comments as 'Bible'. > All Wire are offering right now is something they > haven't in a very long > time - Playing live, Playing Very old material. If > they started this trip > using The First Letter as square one, I might feel > different. But they haven't. TFL still remains my favourite Wir(e) release despite the rough production (the mix is terrible). What pisses me off is not so much that they didn't start with TFL, but that they have totally excluded it, along with Drill and Manscape. I'm glad that I got to hear some of the '70s and '80s stuff live, but I'd have also liked to hear a reinvented So and Slow it Grows on guitar (and the arrangment isn't exactly hard to shift to their current set-up -- in fact, most of that album is dead easy to convert to guitars and sounds good too!). There are many other pieces from TFL and Manscape that would work well if they were 'roughed up' a bit, but sadly they don't seem interested in that period of their history. At least not at the present time. Best, Craig, Wireviews. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:52:54 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Chicago Ideal Copyists! Carl Archer said: > When you're my age, 36, > your mosh pit days are over. It depends. Do you train daily? No, I drive to work.... :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:54:48 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: Pessimism After the RFH gig I was a bit disappointed that there wasn't more new material. And what new material there was didn't mark any kind of new departure. But I hoped that things would improve over time. Having seen a few of the set lists from the US tour, it seems there's no more new material now. What have Wire been up to in the meantime? Do they have day jobs? So the future for this incarnation of Wire is looking pretty mundane to me. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:04:48 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: perfect kiss in the ointment The Grateful Dead may have had a huge catalog of songs to choose from, but it's not like they played any of them in tune! Not that that VAST majority of their fans could tell the difference, or even care... I was dragged to a Grateful Dead concert once. Between being thrown up on, and having literally every other person I met offer to sell me drugs, it confirmed my belief that I was glad I wasn't old enough to be embarrassed by the 60's. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com [mailto:Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:20 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: perfect kiss in the ointment In a message dated 5/8/0 11:35:12 PM, jenor@csd.uwm.edu writes: >I'm terrible at New Order titles, cuz they don't matter anyway - >but the video was done by Jonathan Demme, and shows them creating the new >version in real time - what I admire about them is their incredible knack >for arrangement and chordal variation. If I weren't so lazy, I'd find the >title - but it's the one that ends w/Hook running down the scale on his >bass all the way to low E perfect kiss. incredible song, beautiful video. i heard once that the frog sounds were samples of real frogs. interesting, i thought. i'll take new order, in all their beautiful innocence/ineptitude or whatever you want to refer to it as, over 90% of what's out there from the past 20 years. back to topic...one thing that is irritating to me is something that i noticed while following the bauhaus reunion, er resurrection tour. they played virtually the same set every night for the entire tour, with a few additions towards the end of the tour. so far, wire are doing pretty much the same set at each show. with so much wonderful material to draw from, it makes me wonder why bands do this. one thing that was special about the grateful dead (hehe, who woulda thunk you'd see them mentioned here!) was that the gigs were constantly changing. of course, they spent practically their entire career on the road, but wire should be able to throw us a few curve balls here and there. okay new yawkas, let's start chanting "wire play the 15th" :o) paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:23:04 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. Wasn't there some talk of an Echo & >The Bunnymen comeback? I'd say so, since the reunited version (minus, of course, the late Pete DeFreitas, whose name I probably just misspelled) have done at least 2 albums in the last 3 or so years. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:26:14 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows >(There must be a theory that whatever music one truly into clicks while in >Junior High is what you are ultimately shaped by for the rest of your life >(really, think on this Ummm ... CCR & r&b/soul? Though there *was* that 7" of Walk on the Wild Side ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:36:35 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. > Which brings up an interesting subject -- which re-formed bands *have* > turned out strong work? Second-incarnation Wire are the most obvious > example, for purposes of this list ... I've also expressed extreme fondness > before for the Buzzcocks' '93 comeback LP, Trade Test Transmission, & the > Raincoats' return from the dead 2 years later, Looking in the Shadows -- 2 > of the best albums of the '90s. And with the various lineup changes, I > suppose that at least 1 of the last 3 Killing Jokes -- Extremities, > Pandemonium & Democracy -- counts as well. Pere Ubu have released two cracking last studio albums. Agree Buzzcocks TTT was good - if you edit out the Diggle bits it makes an oustanding album. I've not got the lp but saw Vic Goddard doing his new lp on the tv live and that sounded like a continuation of his excellent form. Am I allowed to mention Rudimentary Peni again? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:32:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: Word from the "non-listener" With the current debate that's going on in this list, I thought I'd forward this snippet from a chat-site by Bob Poss, who isn't a lister or even a fan especially. Craig. SEATTLE i expected to enjoy wire on saturday more. very much partial to the first three lps, i had been looking forward to the show for some time. but i'd be lying if i expected a lot more than the thrill of hearing some songs i'd internalized and the satisfaction of knowing those old dudes could still knock it out all right, by golly. something along the lines of big star, for instance. what i did _not_ expect was something as powerful, as jolting, as completely current as i got. about two songs in, i realized that the fact that i had a history with this band's records, that i knew what i already know about them and their music, meant nothing as i stood there. if i had walked into the club clueless, i would have walked out with the knowledge that i had a catalog of records to buy, and that i had seen a rock band that might have been together for two decades or might have been together for six months. taking into account history, and the fact that every thirty seconds i heard something that someone had coopted from their music--that's where steve albini learned how to play guitar--that's where that drum lick in that pavement song came from--that's where i got that outro--taking all that into account, the utter newness of what they were doing is all the more remarkable. the brand new songs were great, the really old songs were great, and i need to listen to the latter-day records again to see if i was crazy to think they didn't measure up. i don't know if they play that well every night. i don't know if the less firmly shaped later material holds up against the older stuff all the time. it never did for me on record, but every bit of it did the other night. even it's a fifty/fifty proposition that they'll be as good as they were here, i would submit that it is worth the gamble. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:02:40 -0400 From: Jim Dingus Subject: theoldwiththenew >Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 09:30:07 -0400 >From: Carl Archer >Subject: Re: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum >Like Archers of Loaf? In my opinion their sound is similar to >cross-breeding Wire with The Replacements. "Strangled By The Stereo Wire" >particularly comes to mind. I'm with ya Carl. To me, All the Nations Airports in particular, is very reminescent of WIRE. Anyone around here like Polvo? What about Guided by Voices? >Ken wrote: >Indeed. Band of Susans is one of my favorite rock >bands, and Poss sent me a copy of Nicholas Collins' >"100 of the world's most beautiful melodies" (title >recalled incorrectly, I'm sure) when I bought two >old BoS vinyls off of him via mail. BoS were one of the great guitar bands that hardly anyone had ever heard of. Poss is a cool guy. I emailed home one time to see what the band was up to...and he mails me a BoS t-shirt out of the blue. They were quite interesting live; if you ever wanted to immerse your self in total hook-ladden-feedback-sensorround, these were the folks that could do it. Not at all trying to create a stir here, but I'm surprised to see this aversion to Wire reforming as stripped-down guitar combo. What? Your not allowed to re-explore your old material even if it's held up superbly over the years? Let's assume that they're just doing it for the $$, which if history is any indication, nothing could be further from the truth...and you know, Everbody Loves a History...haha. Anyway, what could be more radical for them at this point than to shrug off the e-noise and actually reach for the overdrive dials on their amps? I admit that the largest chunk of my heart lies in guitarland, but IMO, this was a pretty bold move career-wise. The tour is so limited anyway, it's not like they're going to be carrying bags of money to the bank. I think you'll be hard-pressed to see a sad face at one of these Wire gigs if they deliver. Also, consider this, if My Bloody Valentine were to get it back together (yea, right..haha), I guess Sheilds and company wouldn't be allowed to play anything off of Loveless?!?! OK, ready, steady, flame me! Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:28:25 +0100 From: "ian barrett" Subject: Re: Chicago Ideal Copyists! Or so reads the case for the defence - ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Archer . Although I must admit that I will never forget the girl who > stage-dove in such a way that her crotch landed right on my fist as I trying > to protect my head... > > Carl > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:48:08 +0100 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows >TFL still remains my favourite Wir(e) release despite >the rough production (the mix is terrible). What >pisses me off is not so much that they didn't start >with TFL, but that they have totally excluded it, >along with Drill and Manscape. At least as far as TFL is concerned I'd have thought that it was unlikely that *Wire* would play *any* of it ever, if you take the 'one-band, one-line-up' rule to it's inevitable conclusion....I saw Wire (minus RG) when they toured 'Manscape' ....3 guitars (no bass guitar) and a rack of sequencers...It was not a patch on the 'beat-combo' gigs pre "ABIACUIIS" or the RFH. Opinions, I know..... >Advantage in Height were fantastic Indeed. The best Wire bassline *ever*..... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'll leave graffiti where you've never been kissed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:19:16 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > Let me jump in and state that I loveX3 the 11+ video version of...uh, > Christ; I'm terrible at New Order titles, cuz they don't matter anyway - > but the video was done by Jonathan Demme, and shows them creating the new > version in real time That is a wonderful video. One of my favorite things about it is the way they grimace at themselves and each other when they hit a bum note, or fall out of time or whatever, and the way Gillian Gilbert looks like she's going to scream if they hold that extended closeup on her face any longer... -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:36:07 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) Depends on which version of "Temptation" you're talking about. The re-recorded 1987 version on _Substance_ has a woeful 80's tinniness thanks to Stephen Hague's oh-so-dated engineering/production style (did that guy drop off the face of the earth or what), but I'd say the original, continuously-on-the-point-of-collapse recording of it from 81/82 (or therabouts) is one of the most touching, fragile love songs I've ever heard in my life, and I imagine I'd say the same thing 25 years from now. -d.w. Jack Steinmann wrote: > I don't know. "Temptation" sounds very dated to me. "New Dawn Fades" sounds... timeless. > > Jack > > On Tuesday, May 9, 2000, giluz@nettalk.com wrote: > >Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical > >preferences, as far as it comes to Wire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows - --- Stephen Jackson wrote: > At least as far as TFL is concerned I'd have thought > that it was unlikely > that *Wire* would play *any* of it ever, if you take > the 'one-band, > one-line-up' rule to it's inevitable conclusion... Well, that's probably the case (or else they don't know the chords). However, I would have thought doing a "version" with Robert's involvement would therefore be both a sensible and positive move. I guess this road has already been taken before with Ambitious, which was more or less done 'sans' Colin. Of course, there were then versions done *with* his involvement, just as TFL could be done now. Hmm, grammar's gone to pot - sorry about that. > saw Wire (minus RG) > when they toured 'Manscape' ....3 guitars (no bass > guitar) and a rack of > sequencers...It was not a patch on the 'beat-combo' > gigs pre "ABIACUIIS" or > the RFH. Opinions, I know..... I'm not suggesting they suddenly revert to such a line-up, but use their *current* one to play TFL/MS stuff (although I'd still prefer some new pieces). The fact is, most of those tracks make very good psuedo-hypnotic guitar pieces, along the lines of Boiling Boy, but better. I 'converted' So and Slow a while back with a band and it sounded great. Pity it never got recorded, really. Craig/Wireviews. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:20:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Joe Turner Subject: the perfect kiss is the kiss of death On Wed, 10 May 2000, Dave Walker wrote: > > Christ; I'm terrible at New Order titles, cuz they don't matter anyway - > > but the video was done by Jonathan Demme, and shows them creating the new > > version in real time "The Perfect Kiss", I think. I know it's off of "Low-life". /j ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:45:56 CDT From: "Alyce Ornella" Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew >Not at all trying to create a stir here, but I'm surprised to see this >aversion to Wire reforming as stripped-down guitar combo. Personally I am all for the all guitar bass drums routine, that's how I like Wire and will take Pink Flag and Chairs Missing over the 80's albums anyday. My best friend and I are going to the Chicago show tonight and all we've had to say to each other all day is, "Dude, WIRE!!!" We never thought we'd get to see them live, who's next, Gang of Four? Alyce ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:55:29 EDT From: Pleaskillme@aol.com Subject: just got in to chicago ... & am having to use a hijacked account because I can't access my normal "tube disaster" one on ATT, for some reason. Anyway, I trust that nothing catastrophic -- gig cancellation, say, or a sudden embargo on beer -- has transpired in the last 6 1/2 hours or so ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 13:57:06 -0700 From: Brian Barnett Subject: Re: theoldwiththenew Checkout http://www.inertiatour.com/ Alyce Ornella wrote: > >Not at all trying to create a stir here, but I'm surprised to see this > >aversion to Wire reforming as stripped-down guitar combo. > > Personally I am all for the all guitar bass drums routine, that's how I like > Wire and will take Pink Flag and Chairs Missing over the 80's albums anyday. > My best friend and I are going to the Chicago show tonight and all we've > had to say to each other all day is, "Dude, WIRE!!!" We never thought we'd > get to see them live, who's next, Gang of Four? > Alyce > ________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:00:35 -0400 From: "Chao, Tom" Subject: new to the list I'll be at Irving Plaza on Monday. I didn't start listening to Wire until the "Bell is a Cup" album, but I was aware of them from the cut on that WB sampler album (I think it was Map Ref). So I've got a bit of back-catalog catching up to do. You may recognize me at the concert by my screaming for "The Offer," which is my favorite Wire song. TXC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:32:28 -0400 From: "A.J. Wells" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) Yes I would second the opinion that the original version of Temptation gets very close to what was best about the band, and defines a point in the bands evolution that was crucial... it caught them at a time in which they were mired in the Curtis thing and there was no apparent way out... the hopefulness that Temptation portrayed when it came out was truly revolutionary at the time, even though thats hard to believe now... Bernard decided that he didnt really have anything to say, and so he said that, and that was the turning point for the band... and the fragile percolation of the synths on that original version still have never been bettered by the band in terms of emotional impact... check out the Chems Out Of Control debacle to see how clumsy and ham-fisted a modern day approximation of that sort of feel can sound... The summer of 82 was defined by two sounds... the sound of Temptation and the Message, and Barry Walters had a great article about one record directing your gaze down at the pavement and the other lifting it up to the clouds that was pretty definitive Aj. - -----Original Message----- From: Dave Walker To: Jack Steinmann Cc: giluz@nettalk.com ; IdealCopy Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 2:39 PM Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) >Depends on which version of "Temptation" you're talking about. >The re-recorded 1987 version on _Substance_ has a woeful >80's tinniness thanks to Stephen Hague's oh-so-dated >engineering/production style (did that guy drop off the face of the >earth or what), but I'd say the original, >continuously-on-the-point-of-collapse recording of it from >81/82 (or therabouts) is one of the most touching, fragile >love songs I've ever heard in my life, and I imagine >I'd say the same thing 25 years from now. > > -d.w. > >Jack Steinmann wrote: > >> I don't know. "Temptation" sounds very dated to me. "New Dawn Fades" sounds... timeless. >> >> Jack >> >> On Tuesday, May 9, 2000, giluz@nettalk.com wrote: >> >Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical >> >preferences, as far as it comes to Wire > ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #128 *******************************