From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #126 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, May 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 126 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Wire Discussion Forum [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re:new bands [Howard Spencer ] RE: Newman ["webmaster" ] RE: Newman ["giluz" ] Re: Sorry/Jah Wobble 12" [John Roberts ] Post Rock ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Post Rock [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Re:new bands ["ian barrett" ] BBQ some sacred cows. [BOURGEOISIE ] Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum ["A.J. Wells" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #122 [Aaron Mandel ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. [Brian Barnett ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["tube disaster" ] Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ["tube disaster" ] horrifying mismatch? ["Michel Faber" ] re: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) [Jack Steinmann ] re: New Order and timelessness [Jack Steinmann ] RE: Chicago Ideal Copyists! ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Newman [Carl Archer ] Re: Post Rock [Carl Archer ] Re: Chicago Ideal Copyists! [Carl Archer ] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:23:48 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) Jeff, << but it's the one that ends w/Hook running down the scale on his bass all the way to low E (this was back in the days before all the cool kids had them durned extry strings on their "axes," by cracky). >> Actually the Hookmeister was one of the first people who I saw with extra strings on his bass ....he played a Shergold Marathon 6-string bass on a lot of NO stuff. The Marathon had two extra top strings (B and E) rather than a low B. I know, because I've got one. Brilliant device, but a bastard to play.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:25:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Wire Discussion Forum Jack, << Oh, to be an American who just entered his (ahem) 40s and still gets the same thrill out of "Sleep No More"... >> Well you've got a year on me but I agree 100% on that album - especially side 1. Has to be played loud Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 12:55:53 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: Re:new bands Saw Schneider TM on Sunday at QEH, London south-bank. I rate them, on this showing. Four blokes (it's a boy, as us-u-al), taking a Kraftwerk stance behind consoles, smoking fags and swigging Stella (I think the Kraftwerk comparison falls to the ground there). Very tight electronics with some interesting (for a change) back-drop visuals. Highlight was a heavily vocodered version of that Smith's song which contains the line 'What a heavenly way to die'. They got a warm reception and were much better than the main band, to roccoco rot, IMO. In the very illuminating interview by the ex-lion tamer, this Erasure mix with wirey guitars came up again. Has anyone heard this? Amazing to think that Wir were once slated to support Erasure on a tour. I can't think of a greater mismatch. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:29:29 -0500 From: "webmaster" Subject: RE: Newman >>Wasn't Colin quoted that he didn't think the guitar's possibilities had been >>exhausted yet? And remember not too many years ago he was singing all this "song format is dead, guitar is dead" etc... etc.... Then of course the Post Rock thing happened and he ... um... must have changed his mind? it amazes me that most (?) of you think Laptops are boring and sonically limited vs. Guitars are Still Kings. Something tells me you've been listening to the wrong laptop bands and I've been listening to the wrong Guitar Bands! Question - is Silo a Guitar band or a Laptop band? snickerin in the corner.... charles / wmo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:41:41 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Newman >Then of course the Post Rock thing > happened and he ... um... must have changed his mind? I wanted for a long time to ask this - what exactly is Post Rock? Does it really exist or is it just a new label for rockers who doesn't want to sound anachronistic? (I'm not slagging anyone off here - I don't think I've ever heard any post rock band) giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:23:40 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Sorry/Jah Wobble 12" This might be an album and single that came out before the Czukay collaboration one (or possibly both) of which was(were) called Betrayal. This was done before he left PiL though. John Roberts On Wed, 3 May 2000, Creatured wrote: > I got a song by Jah Wobble on tape that i have been trying to find out > the name and which record it is on since the early eighties or whenever > it came out,i think it is 82 to 83 era. I thought it might be from a > four song 12" Ep that has four versions of the same song,but i cant > remember why i thought this. > The song has a middle eastern sound and some dub effects on it. It > has pretty standard Jah bass sound to it. The backing vocals have a > middle eastern sound to them. This might be one of the collobrations > with Holger Czukay as it sounds a little like the Full Circle that > Holger,Jah & Jaki put out around that time.It also has some horns > playing on it too,i believe a trumpet. > I have this song on tape from a radio station(101.9 WDET) that is > fading out a little,so i would really like to get the vinyl of it as i > really love this song. > Thanks for any help anyone can give in advance,Rick > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:24:04 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: Post Rock Post Rock is most of what you hear today. Anything that has it's core in guitar, bass, and drums, but uses other instruments or specialized recording methods should be considered Post Rock. Maybe I'm a purist, but IMO any band that doesn't record live in the studio and isn't capable of reproducing the sound of their records in a live venue, is Post Rock. Pure Rock music is strictly guitar, bass, and drums, and for the most part it's a relic of the past because musicians and composers recognize a good musical tool when they see one and use it in the studio. Only people who pigeon-hole their musical tastes, and we're all guilty of that to one extent or another, would dismiss any type or genre without 'grok-ing' it first. I can honestly say that I don't like most rap/hip-hop music because I've listened to enough to know it's not to my taste. But there are always exceptions... for me, in the case of rap & hip-hop, I've always had a soft spot for those two tricksters also known as The KLF. Fortunately, I'm not stuck on any anti-technology or anti-guitar riff so I can appreciate any or all sides of Wire's catalog, even though my own personal preference would be their more electronic stuff.... Rock, Rock & Roll, Rock Music, etc. stopped being the dominant force in the US in the mid to late 70's with the disco boom. It's balkanized into dozens of different genres, and that's not a bad thing. It all comes down to my Musician vs. Composer argument, which I'll write about later if I have time today. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: giluz [mailto:giluz@nettalk.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 9:42 AM To: IdealCopy Subject: RE: Newman >Then of course the Post Rock thing > happened and he ... um... must have changed his mind? I wanted for a long time to ask this - what exactly is Post Rock? Does it really exist or is it just a new label for rockers who doesn't want to sound anachronistic? (I'm not slagging anyone off here - I don't think I've ever heard any post rock band) giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:03:05 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Post Rock Ray, Post Rock is rock that doesn't. Mark << Post Rock is most of what you hear today. Anything that has it's core in guitar, bass, and drums, but uses other instruments or specialized recording methods should be considered Post Rock. Maybe I'm a purist, but IMO any band that doesn't record live in the studio and isn't capable of reproducing the sound of their records in a live venue, is Post Rock. Pure Rock music is strictly guitar, bass, and drums, and for the most part it's a relic of the past because musicians and composers recognize a good musical tool when they see one and use it in the studio. Only people who pigeon-hole their musical tastes, and we're all guilty of that to one extent or another, would dismiss any type or genre without 'grok-ing' it first. I can honestly say that I don't like most rap/hip-hop music because I've listened to enough to know it's not to my taste. But there are always exceptions... for me, in the case of rap & hip-hop, I've always had a soft spot for those two tricksters also known as The KLF. Fortunately, I'm not stuck on any anti-technology or anti-guitar riff so I can appreciate any or all sides of Wire's catalog, even though my own personal preference would be their more electronic stuff.... Rock, Rock & Roll, Rock Music, etc. stopped being the dominant force in the US in the mid to late 70's with the disco boom. It's balkanized into dozens of different genres, and that's not a bad thing. It all comes down to my Musician vs. Composer argument, which I'll write about later if I have time today. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:11:17 +0100 From: "ian barrett" Subject: Re: Re:new bands > Amazing to think that Wir were once slated to support Erasure on a > tour. I can't think of a greater mismatch. > > Howard I always found the prospect of Wire and Depeche Mode on the same bill somewhat horrifying Ian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:10:07 -0700 (PDT) From: BOURGEOISIE Subject: BBQ some sacred cows. <> wrote: <> !? That was unnecessary and I did NOT slag Wire off. In summation, I asked if it were possible for Wire to move forward with Robert's no electronics restriction which was responded to by Aaron who stated (among other things) that it was not important if Wire adhered to principles that he was drawn to, instead he felt inclined to hear whatever Wire felt like playing at this time. I countered by pointing out (in so many words) what blind hero worship that attitude is and that Wire are a principled band in that their stated purpose (which in the past) is to move forward w/out looking back. As for what instruments Wire should play in the future...I don't care...as long as they move into new territory, they could play kazoos for all I care. <> I can only read what he typed and I feel he expressed an over reliance on Wire's track record, which does nothing for their future. I repeat, Wire have not yet proven themselves this time around as anything but a well oiled nostalgia act, they have not presented a substantial body of new work that deviates from the current established "rawk or robot" aesthetic. <> I do not know him, but from the little bit i've seen him write, I sincerely doubt he will criticize Wire....I think he'll just feel fortunate that they came to a town near him. <> I haven't heard any recontextualizing, i've heard replicating....like I said, this is based solely on Wire's ATP broadcast.....if they've progressed since then I wouldn't know (but I will find out on the 13th) <> Let me quote Wire, "Once is enough!" <> I disagree, from what i've seen, it is what Wire are doing, *Unless* they follow through with their stated purpose which is to play old numbers to regain their competence as a band unit and then move on into new territory. Robert. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:35:07 -0400 From: "A.J. Wells" Subject: Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum Mmm... I'm not a big fan of NtoX or a lot of the other "avant" bands that Mute and Thrill Jockey foist (Appliance, Hovercraft etc)... although my favorite band of the past year or so is a Mute distribution, the Kitty Yo Berlin duo Tarwater... their work seems to me like it would appeal to Wire fans with its blend of deadpan deconstructed texts and interesting sonic experiments alternating between noise and beauty... - -----Original Message----- From: giluz To: IdealCopy Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:52 AM Subject: RE: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum > >> When you speak of contemporary music, I'm not sure what you mean. I can't >> think of very many current, young rock bands right now who have a shred of >> originality. If you can, please tell me about them! > >"Add N To X" are quite interesting, with their blend of samples, and live >music / noises (I know it doesn't sound interesting, cause everyone does it, >but they sound quite different). Their last album's called "Avant Hard" - >check it out. > >giluz > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:14:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #122 On Sun, 7 May 2000, BOURGEOISIE wrote: > First of all, how can you say that you just want to see whatever they > feel like playing? because descriptions like "they are now using no electronics" or "they have reinvented the beat-combo period" or "they are getting older" may tell me how people feel about the shows, but they don't even come close to telling me what it will actually be like to hear the shows. > Will you accept anything they perform or release in the future just > because of their past? at the moment, i would say yes -- and by "accept", i mean LISTENING TO IT, as opposed to declaring my right to judge it out of hand before i've heard it, or even worse, checking it out from a sense of duty rather than out of genuine interest. see, these are four particular people who have proven in the past that they think and create in interesting ways. they do things for me that i couldn't do myself. i'll admit that with hack artists, i'll go in with my own principles that i expect them to adhere to -- you know, they're just filling a role. if i get convinced to go see the new big action movie, i want it to be exciting, fast-paced, et cetera; i don't care as much whether the makers succeed on their own terms, because i don't care what their own terms are. with artists who do something really interesting, though, what good does it do you to lug your own expectations in? these are people whose creations tend to articulate within themselves their own motivation; it's not like i'm going to be as lost as if i go to a Jackie Chan flick with no expectations and then spend the whole time wondering why these people want to beat each other up so much. > For me, Wire has always been a set of principles, a declaration of > independence from the monotonous cycle of pop culture that repackages > old achievements with new haircuts in tight pants for young audiences > that can't remember the first time around. so you don't need to listen to the music? you can just process the principles and declare your allegiance to those same principles and you're done. do you *enjoy* playing Wire records, or do you just perceive them as a vindication of principles, a proof that this artistic philosophy you're fond of is viable? you seem to think that i cannot possibly have any standards (i think "blind hero worship" was the term you used) if i am willing to give the revived Wire the benefit of the doubt based on past experience rather than based on what principles they are currently espousing in interviews. as you may have noticed, *many* musicians claim those same principles or similar ones. some stick to them and produce great music. some stick to them and produce tedious music. some are just lying. some are lying (or misguided) but produce great music anyway, music which works on completely different principles. the past has shown me that Wire's stated principles are relevant to their music, but that judging things in advance on dogmatic grounds is a waste of time. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:11:45 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. ><notion of reunions and revisiting the back catalog is too tainted by seeing >the Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd/Roger Waters, and dozens of other artists >trade on often-uninspired remakes of older material, doing umpteen "Our >Last Tour Ever Maybe" outings in which songs are played exactly as they >were twenty or thirty years ago. This isn't what Wire's doing *at all.*>> > >I disagree, from what i've seen, it is what Wire are doing, *Unless* they follow >through with their stated purpose which is to play old numbers to regain their >competence as a band unit and then move on into new territory. > >Robert. Soooooo ... after I've seen them in Chicago tomorrow night (knock wood, & barring plane mishaps), I won't be able to determine for a few years whether it was a good show or not? Anybody for a bracing round of "what is reality?" Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 11:35:49 -0700 From: Brian Barnett Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. Good to meet you Miles. Now we have a real discussion here. I have never minded flames and have incited a few my day, it is good to see that some people still have strong opinions. BOURGEOISIE wrote: > <> wrote: > > < now when you figure it out? ;-)>> > > !? That was unnecessary and I did NOT slag Wire off. > In summation, I asked if it were possible for Wire to move forward with Robert's no > electronics restriction which was responded to by Aaron who stated (among other > things) that it was not important if Wire adhered to principles that he was drawn > to, instead he felt inclined to hear whatever Wire felt like playing at this time. > I countered by pointing out (in so many words) what blind hero worship that attitude > is and that Wire are a principled band in that their stated purpose (which in the > past) is to move forward w/out looking back. > > As for what instruments Wire should play in the future...I don't care...as long as > they move into new territory, they could play kazoos for all I care. > > < of delivering the goods, and they've given him no reason to suspect that > they won't this time 'round either.>> > > I can only read what he typed and I feel he expressed an over reliance on Wire's > track record, which does nothing for their future. I repeat, Wire have not yet > proven themselves this time around as anything but a well oiled nostalgia act, they > have not presented a substantial body of new work that deviates from the current > established "rawk or robot" aesthetic. > > < Wire; rather, he's making a prediction based on his take of a considerable > body of empirical evidence. But if he goes to the Boston show and thinks > that the new-model Wire laid an egg, trust me, he will be more than willing > to tell us so.>> > > I do not know him, but from the little bit i've seen him write, I sincerely doubt he > will criticize Wire....I think he'll just feel fortunate that they came to a town > near him. > > < creative dead end?>> > > I haven't heard any recontextualizing, i've heard replicating....like I said, this > is based solely on Wire's ATP broadcast.....if they've progressed since then I > wouldn't know (but I will find out on the 13th) > > < *anything* before -- this isn't the 4,700th time they've trotted out "the > classics," y'know, this *is* a new endeavor for them.>> > > Let me quote Wire, "Once is enough!" > > < notion of reunions and revisiting the back catalog is too tainted by seeing > the Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd/Roger Waters, and dozens of other artists > trade on often-uninspired remakes of older material, doing umpteen "Our > Last Tour Ever Maybe" outings in which songs are played exactly as they > were twenty or thirty years ago. This isn't what Wire's doing *at all.*>> > > I disagree, from what i've seen, it is what Wire are doing, *Unless* they follow > through with their stated purpose which is to play old numbers to regain their > competence as a band unit and then move on into new territory. > > Robert. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:35:24 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) >> >Actually, I have to admit that New Order were one of the reasons >> I wouldn't >> >agree to listen to anything which was remotely electronic >> (excluding Wire, >> >of course) for years. >> >> Ummm ... that sounds a bit silly. For instance, I can't stand Led >> Zeppelin, >> but just how close-minded would I have been to have extrapolated >> that into a >> stance of "not agreeing to listen to anything which was remotely >> guitar-based for years"? Then again, to each his own. > >It was absolutely silly, of course, but I was much younger then. > >> I never understood (and think that I never will >> >understand) why people made such a fuss about them, except for them being >> >ex-Joy Division, which sound dated themselves nowadays. >> >> Of course, if you're dismissing Joy Division as sounding "dated," >> obviously >> we have such completely different perceptions that I might as well be >> e-mailing to my dog. The blind one. > >Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical >preferences, as far as it comes to Wire, I believe (which do not sound >dated), so let's settle on me being a dog, but not blind - ok? > Oh, please rest assured that I didn't mean my comment derogatorily, but rather meant to reflect that on this point we simply don't share a common perspective ... anyone who knows me knows that my comparing someone in any shape, form or fashion to a canine is at worst a completely neutral move, as much as I dote on my 2 (the other one is deaf ... if I had a Basenji, I could go for the see/hear/speak-no-evil trifecta). For me, in fact, the only drawback to journeying to Chicago tomorrowv is horrendous guilt over having to board them for a night or 2 at the vet's. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:42:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. On Tue, 9 May 2000, BOURGEOISIE wrote: > I can only read what he typed and I feel he expressed an over reliance > on Wire's track record, which does nothing for their future. so why are you on the Wire list, as opposed to the mailing list for some label whose releases you've never even seen? you haven't heard the future records of either one, after all. > I do not know him, but from the little bit i've seen him write, I > sincerely doubt he will criticize Wire....I think he'll just feel > fortunate that they came to a town near him. yep, that's me! i just can't wait to buy a Wire t-shirt and maybe a printed Wire program like they have at the circus and at Cats. that would be the best. ooh, maybe Bruce will sign the program! he's soooooooo dreamy! (hey, shouldn't you be judging me based on my future posts, not my past ones?) you apparently haven't been on the list very long, since i was one of the few people who thought Colin & Malka's tour was awful, and said so at great length. but the point is, they're the ones driving the car. i'm going to the show to form my own opinions about whatever it is they do now, not to see if they measure up to my philosophy. part of the problem here may be that i think Wire are actually very bad at explaining what they do and why. many of their stated principles are too vague to be broken, at least until they are solidified into dogma by overeager fans. if you like them for political reasons, that's fine. not everyone's riding that train. and, i'll admit, that question of whether it's what they say or what they do that counts *is* a realm where i'm inclined to go in with preconceptions. to be exact, hearing the music creates the basis for my understanding of their work from scratch, and when i listen to them talking about it, i'm not absorbing the interview as a disquisition on art in its own right -- i'm trying to decide whether the verbal explanation measures up to the task of explaining their particular music, or whether they're just talking because someone put a microphone in front of them. aaron p.s. Bruce Gi1b3rt is the CUTEST! Bruce love 4eva! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:51:31 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: BBQ some sacred cows. >> I do not know him, but from the little bit i've seen him write, I >> sincerely doubt he will criticize Wire....I think he'll just feel >> fortunate that they came to a town near him. > >yep, that's me! i just can't wait to buy a Wire t-shirt and maybe a >printed Wire program like they have at the circus and at Cats. that would >be the best. ooh, maybe Bruce will sign the program! he's soooooooo >dreamy! We should all post photos of our bedrooms, which no doubt are papered with photos of various band members ... Dan (& Colin, sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g ...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:57:43 +0100 From: "Michel Faber" Subject: horrifying mismatch? Howard Spencer wrote: > Amazing to think that Wir were once slated to support Erasure on >a tour. I can't think of a greater mismatch. Ian Barrett wrote: >I always found the prospect of Wire and Depeche Mode on the >same bill somewhat horrifying __________________________________________ Both Erasure and Depeche Mode are closer to Wire than they may appear. What makes them seem so far away is their vocalists - the camp histrionics of Andy Bell, the let-me-see-those-hands-in-the-air- cos-I'm-a-sex-god mannerisms of David Gahan, the I'm-so-sensitive- it-hurts fragility of Martyn Gore. Instrumentally, both bands have done things to rival Wire, in not dissimilar areas. For those of you who (understandably, perhaps) find it difficult to 'screen out' the vocals and listen to the underlying music of the better Depeche Mode or Erasure albums, there are a few instrumental or near-instrumental things you could try... Check out Erasure's '91 Steps (Six Pianos mix)' - a stunning piece of ice-cool minimalism that sounds a bit like Steve Reich via Bruce Gilbert. Check out 'Oberkorn' and 'Pimpf' by Depeche Mode. Check out Martyn Gore doing 'Motherless Child' - a stalking, spine-chilling electronic reinvention of the blues that could have been He Said at its best. And, of course, check out the Depeche Mode side project Recoil (Alan Wilder and Daniel Miller, basically) whose first album in particular was a deliciously radical (re)mix of Depeche Mode and Duet Emmo material (some of which resurfaced during Miller's set at Wire's RFH gig this year). Best wishes, Michel Faber ------------------------------ Date: 09 May 2000 16:48:49 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) I don't know. "Temptation" sounds very dated to me. "New Dawn Fades" sounds... timeless. Jack On Tuesday, May 9, 2000, giluz@nettalk.com wrote: >Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical >preferences, as far as it comes to Wire ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:13:11 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: New Order and timelessness I think that much of New Orders work reaches that 'timeless' area... But here's an easy comparison: Blue Monday by New Order = Timeless Blue Monday by Orgy = Soulless Industro-Thrash remake that will be forgotten in 5 months, much less 5 years Getting off my soapbox, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: Jack Steinmann [mailto:jsteinmann@clynch.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 4:49 PM To: giluz@nettalk.com Cc: IdealCopy Subject: re: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) I don't know. "Temptation" sounds very dated to me. "New Dawn Fades" sounds... timeless. Jack On Tuesday, May 9, 2000, giluz@nettalk.com wrote: >Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical >preferences, as far as it comes to Wire ------------------------------ Date: 09 May 2000 17:28:07 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: New Order and timelessness Maybe I just prefer Martin Hannett's production skills to those of Barney & Co... Ray wrote: >I think that much of New Orders work reaches that 'timeless' >area... > >But here's an easy comparison: > >Blue Monday by New Order = Timeless > >Blue Monday by Orgy = Soulless Industro-Thrash remake that will be forgotten >in 5 months, much less 5 years ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:45:13 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Chicago Ideal Copyists! During my last visit to the Metro, late February of this year to see Apollo 440, seating was available only in the balcony. Left side for 'special guests', right side for 'armchair' concert goers. I place myself firmly in the 'armchair' category. When you're my age, 36, your mosh pit days are over. I hope to grab a table up top on the right. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: MackDaddyD [mailto:dmack2002@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 3:47 PM To: tube disaster; Ciscon, Ray; wiremailorder@ameritech.net; George.m.hook@ac.com; jsteinmann@clynch.com; z946128@rice.farm.niu.edu; cosa@tiny.net; bumstead@home.com; rorshach23@home.net; pshaw@cave.net; jenor@csd.uwm.edu; jchenaul@columbus.rr.com Subject: Re: Chicago Ideal Copyists! reserved for priviledged guests > > Hmmm ... someone from another list just mentioned reserved seating at the > show. I've probably just been oblivious, but I wasn't aware there *is* such > a thing at the Metro, though I've only been there once. (I sure didn't see > anything that looked like reserve seating at the Buzzcocks show last > November ... or does that refer to the tables & chairs at [if memory serves] > the left of the balcony?) > > Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:58:16 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Newman Is Man-Or-Asto-Man? a surf-laptop band? Carl > From: "webmaster" > Reply-To: > Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:29:29 -0500 > To: > Subject: RE: Newman > >>> Wasn't Colin quoted that he didn't think the guitar's possibilities had > been >>> exhausted yet? > > And remember not too many years ago he was singing all this "song format is > dead, guitar is dead" etc... etc.... Then of course the Post Rock thing > happened and he ... um... must have changed his mind? > > it amazes me that most (?) of you think Laptops are boring and sonically > limited vs. Guitars are Still Kings. Something tells me you've been > listening to the wrong laptop bands and I've been listening to the wrong > Guitar Bands! > > Question - is Silo a Guitar band or a Laptop band? > > snickerin in the corner.... > charles / wmo > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:01:45 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Post Rock Well spoken! > From: MarkBursa@aol.com > Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:03:05 EDT > To: RCiscon@comark.com, idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Post Rock > > Ray, > > Post Rock is rock that doesn't. > > Mark > > << Post Rock is most of what you hear today. Anything that has it's core in > guitar, bass, and drums, but uses other instruments or specialized recording > methods should be considered Post Rock. > > Maybe I'm a purist, but IMO any band that doesn't record live in the studio > and isn't capable of reproducing the sound of their records in a live venue, > is Post Rock. > > Pure Rock music is strictly guitar, bass, and drums, and for the most part > it's a relic of the past because musicians and composers recognize a good > musical tool when they see one and use it in the studio. > > Only people who pigeon-hole their musical tastes, and we're all guilty of > that to one extent or another, would dismiss any type or genre without > 'grok-ing' it first. I can honestly say that I don't like most rap/hip-hop > music because I've listened to enough to know it's not to my taste. But > there are always exceptions... for me, in the case of rap & hip-hop, I've > always had a soft spot for those two tricksters also known as The KLF. > > Fortunately, I'm not stuck on any anti-technology or anti-guitar riff so I > can appreciate any or all sides of Wire's catalog, even though my own > personal preference would be their more electronic stuff.... > > Rock, Rock & Roll, Rock Music, etc. stopped being the dominant force in the > US in the mid to late 70's with the disco boom. It's balkanized into dozens > of different genres, and that's not a bad thing. > > It all comes down to my Musician vs. Composer argument, which I'll write > about later if I have time today. >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 19:14:54 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Chicago Ideal Copyists! Ray Ciscon said: > When you're my age, 36, > your mosh pit days are over. It depends. Do you train daily? I prefer crowd surfing. However, after falling on my back at Irving Plaza, falling of off the edge of the crowd at both Ramones and Nirvana shows, and getting my ass kicked for no apparent reason at a Ministry gig, I might be done too. Although I must admit that I will never forget the girl who stage-dove in such a way that her crotch landed right on my fist as I trying to protect my head... Carl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:19:16 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] EDT) Message-ID: <39181E43.EAFE75CD@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 10:18:43 -0400 From: "A. Izenstark" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Idealcopy Subject: Wire Article in Boston Globe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: ( 1 record ) Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:02:37 -0600 From: wsrv@dialog.carl.org (Web Server) To: aizenstark@mindspring.com To: aizenstark@mindspring.com Record 1 of 1 10628021DIALOG(R)File 631:Boston Globe(c) 2000 Boston Globe. All rights reserved. 10628021 WIRE BRINGS ART-PUNK BACK TO THE PRESENT Boston Globe (BG) - Sunday, May 7, 2000 By: Paul Robicheau, Globe Correspondent Edition: THIRD Section: Arts Page: C3 Word Count: 1,074 MEMO: TYPE: LIV TEXT: Even during its rare periods of activity, the British band Wire has remained under the popular radar for 24 years. But that might be considered a byproduct of Wire's use of punk rock as simply another artistic medium through which to conceptualize and confound. "We've never really seriously played the game in terms of audience-pleasing, or market-pleasing, to be honest," says singer-guitarist Colin Newman, who is back with Wire for the quartet's first American tour since 1988, coming to the Roxy Friday. "So that means we alternately delight and frustrate, depending on who you are, and your perception of what it is." In the late '70s, Wire was an ironic, abrasive group with art-school origins (in stark contrast to such peers as the Clash, the Sex Pistols, and the Damned) that influenced generations of bands. In 1979, the Boston art-punk band Mission of Burma "auditioned" drummer Peter Prescott by subjecting him to a loud dose of Wire on the stereo. He passed the audition: "We just loved the concept, the way they were angry and cerebral at the same time, which is still an unusual combination," says Prescott, whose Peer Group, with ex-Burma mate Clint Conley filling in on bass, opens Friday's Roxy show. In 1987, R.E.M. recorded "Strange," a song from Wire's 1977 debut, "Pink Flag." And the stuttering riff in Elastica's 1995 hit "Connection" so closely echoed Wire's "Three Girl Rhumba" that the band's publishers received an out-of-court sum. When Wire reconvened in the '80s, it adopted a still oblique, but sleeker, more electronic-coated pop sound. And the band avoided its '70s repertoire, a frustration to old fans. That may be rectified by the current tour, which evolved from an invitation for Wire to curate and perform in a February show at London's Royal Festival Hall. With little new material in the works, the group opted to resurrect a full range of its older songs, all the way back to "Pink Flag." "It's a complete commitment to playing these pieces in what we consider to be a contemporary way," bassist-singer Graham Lewis says, on the phone from his home in Sweden. "Otherwise, we wouldn't be coming to see you. I can assure you of that. I can assure anybody that they won't see some sort of nostalgia, and some trotting out of a few ghostly remains of the past." "Thank God you can't play the way you played in 1977, because when you played it in 1977, that's how it felt, and you don't feel that way anymore," he says. "It's playing things in a way which we feel comfortable with now, and bringing with it the revised perspective that we all have from the work that we've been engaged in over the past 10 years." During that time, Lewis and Newman have overseen their own record labels (Origin and Swim, respectively), done electronics-based music, and scored music for dance, film, and installations. Guitarist Bruce Gilbert has been a DJ and sound artist, while drummer Robert Gotobed has concentrated on organic farming. "For a very long period, at least three of us have not been playing guitars," says Lewis, 47, noting that Wire last convened in 1996 to play Gilbert's 50th birthday party. "I think everybody has really been enjoying the physicality of playing guitars." Indeed, stepping back into Wire has been quite easy, Newman says. "Within 10 minutes, we can be making the Wire noise on a fairly convincing level," he says in a phone interview from his London home, where he's sorting through records to use during a post-show DJ set in Chicago. "The mechanics of it are not very hard, and we have played a lot together." "It is very, very focused, and on a good night, we can sorta blow away all comers, really," says Newman, 45. "In the '70s, we weren't always a super-efficient live band. We could be good. We were always a bit iffy. We worked more this time on making the things really effective for a live presentation. And the choice of material has gone around that rather than `What's your favorite Wire song?' " While the group has been including material from its '80s catalog, the peak of which was 1987's "The Ideal Copy" (one of seven releases just reissued in America by Mute Records), the focus has been on a basic two guitars/bass/drums attack. "This was the way that Wire worked in the simplest, most direct way," Lewis says. "If we were going to make this show, we didn't really want to overburden ourselves with technology." Adds Newman, "We've done stuff like bringing the studio on the road, but we already did that at the end of the '80s. These times require something different. It's about organic." And it's about art. "I don't think Wire have ever been in the entertainment industry," Newman says. "I think they've always been doing art. That doesn't stop art from being powerful and attractive, and it can have some characteristics which go along with what you might call rock music. But I don't think we actually do that. We're just doing art all the time." "You just keep working, and in as many different mediums as you can," Lewis says. "When we were saying these things perhaps the first time around, people said, `Oh, how terribly pretentious and arty.' The second time around, the same. And this time around, even the dear New Musical Express in England has managed to drop the `y' off arty. 'Cause they always called it arty-punk or art-school punk. And we tried to make it very clear from the beginning that we were interested in art." And how long will their interest in art keep them interested in being Wire? "If we're going to make new material, then we need a solid period of time to do that, and that will be some time in the future, after America," Lewis says. "The way we're doing it at the moment is a very simple stage-to-stage. Everybody's got a life. What's important is everybody wants to have fun. We don't have any commitment to anybody in terms of a record company or anyone else. We can do just what we wish at the moment, and that's quite the way we'd like to keep it." CAPTION: PHOTO Wire: still angry and cerebral at the same time. Copyright (c) 2000, Globe Newspaper Company DESCRIPTORS: MUSIC NAME-WIRE - -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #126 *******************************