From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #125 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, May 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 125 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum [Carl Archer ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["A.J. Wells" ] re: Re: Wire Discussion Forum [Jack Steinmann ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["marlon" ] RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["giluz" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum I wasn't talking about age necessarily, so please don't be offended. Although when I went to see Killing Joke on the 'Extremeties' tour (in scenic Asbury Park, New Jersey *sic*) there were many people in their 30s at the show. I am not 30 yet, but I'm pretty damn close. Honestly, I think that most people who gravitate towards a band like Wire are usually intelligent people who aren't very trendy. Also, considering the tenure of Wire's existence, I'm certain that most on the list have a great knowledge of late-70's and 80's music. When you speak of contemporary music, I'm not sure what you mean. I can't think of very many current, young rock bands right now who have a shred of originality. If you can, please tell me about them! I am always looking for new music. I recommend The Frames (or Frames DC depending on which country you're in). Of course it doesn't help that major record labels (look around. there's a lot less than there were 15 years ago) will only push about 5 bands. Take Korn, for example: to me they sound like a band who listened to a lot of Faith No More and didn't really take it to another level. Back to Wire, did anybody else notice that Ministry steals a bit from "Mr. Suit" in "Thieves"? Al Jourgenson has mentioned in interviews that he is a Wire fan. Ministry also stole from Tones on Tail and Big Black, but I won't get in to that... Al might be on this list for all I know. I'll be wearing a black Devo or grey Superchunk shirt at Irving Plaza next Monday night if anybody wants to discuss.... Carl > From: MarkBursa@aol.com > Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:45:10 EDT > To: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com, idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum > > Paul, > > << You're going to see a lot of discussion on 80's band on this list. I > think it's a matter of demographics. >>>>>> what are you trying to say? spell it out for us..... >> > > He's saying we're a bunch of sad old anoraks!!!! > > And proud of it too..... > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:57:47 -0400 From: "A.J. Wells" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) I was going to chime in on New Orders' live incompetence, but you beat me to it... of course they are four hacks and they cant play their instruments half the time... thats what makes those moments so incredible... you have no idea where they came from, because as evident from their solo work, it doesnt come completely from them... And 25 New Order shows does me in by a bit, but I think I must have witnessed around 20 shows over the years... including their first SF gig at the Cinema with (gulp) The Simple Minds opening up... and the one of the two or three best rock shows I've ever seen at Echo Beach a few years later... Man this list makes me feel a little less aged... or was that horribly over with? Aj - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com To: dmack2002@yahoo.com ; idealcopy@smoe.org Date: Monday, May 08, 2000 6:56 PM Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) >Mack, > ><< my experience with New Order live (x3) was that the notes they missed far > exceeded those played ;) > and they were in constant battle with the electronics >> > >All of which was part of their immense charm live. Barney couldn't play and >sing at the same time, and was usually off his face. The electronics were a >mix of the very latest (and highly temperamental) gear and home-made stuff. >So it was very prone to failure.... > >I saw NO about 25 times in all, and at least 10 of those were transcendent. >Only about three or four were crap. > >Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:33:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) On Mon, 8 May 2000 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > All of which was part of their immense charm live. Barney couldn't play and > sing at the same time, and was usually off his face. The electronics were a > mix of the very latest (and highly temperamental) gear and home-made stuff. > So it was very prone to failure.... Let me jump in and state that I loveX3 the 11+ video version of...uh, Christ; I'm terrible at New Order titles, cuz they don't matter anyway - but the video was done by Jonathan Demme, and shows them creating the new version in real time - what I admire about them is their incredible knack for arrangement and chordal variation. If I weren't so lazy, I'd find the title - but it's the one that ends w/Hook running down the scale on his bass all the way to low E (this was back in the days before all the cool kids had them durned extry strings on their "axes," by cracky). At least for me, watching them slowly transform the relatively limited materials the song presents them with is quite thrilling- actually, sorta similar to the way "Drill" can work - change through repetition. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::we make everything you need, and you need everything we make:: ------------------------------ Date: 08 May 2000 23:13:30 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re: beginning to and back again Wasn't Colin quoted that he didn't think the guitar's possibilities had been exhausted yet? What appealed to me about Wire from the very outset ("Strange") to the reformation ("Private Place") to the last album ("Patterns of Behaviour") was the sheer sonic gravity of The Electric Guitar. Set aside all considerations of arrangement, producers, labels, decade, etc., the foundation of Wire for me has always been what they built with guitars (over, of course, Mr. Gotobed's essential beats). I think this music will always sound fresh -- it's primal! Jack On Monday, May 8, 2000, A.J. Wells wrote: >I agree the "electronics vs non-electro" thing is a non issue, and know >there are no rules... if something makes sense and sounds good at a >particular point in time, then it does, whether made in a computer >environment or on an old guitar in a dusty garage... my only point was >trying to figure out why this music sounds so fresh at the moment, when by >all reasoning it should sound like a blast from the past... and I do think >that it has something to do with the sameness of a lot of music at the >moment resulting from a homogenization of materials, techniques and ideas... >and also with how fleeting pop musics' sense of "nowness" is... there is an >element of fashion, because its part of the popular artists job to make >something new, or at least make something feel new... and I think that some >of this has to do with why this band sounds so vital at the moment... it >just "feels" new at the moment... I dont know whether the band will evolve >into a rejuvenated creative unit, and for the moment that >doesn't matter... > >Aj > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey >To: Grand Mute Proof >Date: Monday, May 08, 2000 5:18 PM >Subject: beginning to and back again > > >>On Mon, 8 May 2000, giluz wrote: >> >>> > To: idealcopy@smoe.org; professor ned >>> > >>> > at least those REM or Clash clones had to learn the three chords and at >>> least >>> > on their records you can hear the human error inherent in what they are >>> > playing... >>> >>> I totally disagree here: Remember that punk bands were considered as bad >>> musicians because they could hardly play those same 3 chords, didn't do >>> solos or didn't have a classical music education. The same attitude goes >>> right back to the 50's when rock 'n roll began. Rock's revolutions always >>> started by simplifying the technical side of playing and enabling >>> non-musicians to participate. This happened everytime the current trend >got >>> too professional for amateurs. >> >>And it's always been this tension between accomplishment and exploration >>that's been interesting about rock (used in the broadest possible sense) >>for me. Wire themselves are a great example - in terms of, oh I dunno, >>some athletic wanker like Steve Vai, I suppose they can barely play their >>instruments - but in terms of composing, arranging, sculpting sound, etc. >>- i.e., what it is that Wire do - they're nonpareil. That is, shift the >>angle of the lens as to what you're judging as "good" - or as "music" - >>and the results change. >> >>I don't care if people who make music can >>> play any instruments - I do care if they make good music. You still have >to >>> be a musician to make even (good) electronic music, and that's even if >you >>> haven't played an analogue instrument in your entire life. >> >>I'd agree..except that part of what happens (I think you say this below) >>is what counts as "good music" gets redefined: we get used to hearing, >>say, The Clash - and suddenly the fact that not only did they have the >>expected punk urgency *but also* a great melodic sense that was at first >>obscured by hearing all those punk-rock trees becomes very obvious. "Wire >>play pop," you remember... >> >>The electronics/"not" argument is really getting rather old - I'm glad >>Colin called DeRogatis on that one. It should be incredibly obvious by now >>that "electronics" is eminently capable of producing the thinnest gruel as >>well as stuff of great shining brilliance - because it's not the tools >>producing the music, it's those who use the tools. >> >>Granted, at first just hearing cool sounds can make things like >>electronics - or elec. gutiar feedback, etc. - sound good - but that stuff >>pales over time unless the music's there. >> >>--Jeff >> >>J e f f r e y N o r m a n >>The Architectural Dance Society >>www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html >>::In terms of the conjunctures of cultures, [LA is] less like a salad bowl >>::and more like a TV dinner with those little aluminium barriers keeping >>::all the vegetables in their places. >>__Catherine Ann Driscoll__ >> >> >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 21:16:25 -0400 From: "A.J. Wells" Subject: Re: Re: beginning to and back again Yes I've been going back over my Wire records for the past couple of days wishing I could hear some of these songs (particularly from the 80s period) played on guitars... so much of the 80s stuff is horribly marred by that godawful twittering synth/sequencer sound that was all over Colins' It Seems record... I do think that the character of the band comes through the strongest when each player has his guitar slung over his shoulder... Rawk on... Aj - -----Original Message----- From: Jack Steinmann To: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ; A.J. Wells Cc: Grand Mute Proof Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 12:14 AM Subject: re: Re: beginning to and back again Wasn't Colin quoted that he didn't think the guitar's possibilities had been exhausted yet? What appealed to me about Wire from the very outset ("Strange") to the reformation ("Private Place") to the last album ("Patterns of Behaviour") was the sheer sonic gravity of The Electric Guitar. Set aside all considerations of arrangement, producers, labels, decade, etc., the foundation of Wire for me has always been what they built with guitars (over, of course, Mr. Gotobed's essential beats). I think this music will always sound fresh -- it's primal! Jack On Monday, May 8, 2000, A.J. Wells wrote: >I agree the "electronics vs non-electro" thing is a non issue, and know >there are no rules... if something makes sense and sounds good at a >particular point in time, then it does, whether made in a computer >environment or on an old guitar in a dusty garage... my only point was >trying to figure out why this music sounds so fresh at the moment, when by >all reasoning it should sound like a blast from the past... and I do think >that it has something to do with the sameness of a lot of music at the >moment resulting from a homogenization of materials, techniques and ideas... >and also with how fleeting pop musics' sense of "nowness" is... there is an >element of fashion, because its part of the popular artists job to make >something new, or at least make something feel new... and I think that some >of this has to do with why this band sounds so vital at the moment... it >just "feels" new at the moment... I dont know whether the band will evolve >into a rejuvenated creative unit, and for the moment that >doesn't matter... > >Aj > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey >To: Grand Mute Proof >Date: Monday, May 08, 2000 5:18 PM >Subject: beginning to and back again > > >>On Mon, 8 May 2000, giluz wrote: >> >>> > To: idealcopy@smoe.org; professor ned >>> > >>> > at least those REM or Clash clones had to learn the three chords and at >>> least >>> > on their records you can hear the human error inherent in what they are >>> > playing... >>> >>> I totally disagree here: Remember that punk bands were considered as bad >>> musicians because they could hardly play those same 3 chords, didn't do >>> solos or didn't have a classical music education. The same attitude goes >>> right back to the 50's when rock 'n roll began. Rock's revolutions always >>> started by simplifying the technical side of playing and enabling >>> non-musicians to participate. This happened everytime the current trend >got >>> too professional for amateurs. >> >>And it's always been this tension between accomplishment and exploration >>that's been interesting about rock (used in the broadest possible sense) >>for me. Wire themselves are a great example - in terms of, oh I dunno, >>some athletic wanker like Steve Vai, I suppose they can barely play their >>instruments - but in terms of composing, arranging, sculpting sound, etc. >>- i.e., what it is that Wire do - they're nonpareil. That is, shift the >>angle of the lens as to what you're judging as "good" - or as "music" - >>and the results change. >> >>I don't care if people who make music can >>> play any instruments - I do care if they make good music. You still have >to >>> be a musician to make even (good) electronic music, and that's even if >you >>> haven't played an analogue instrument in your entire life. >> >>I'd agree..except that part of what happens (I think you say this below) >>is what counts as "good music" gets redefined: we get used to hearing, >>say, The Clash - and suddenly the fact that not only did they have the >>expected punk urgency *but also* a great melodic sense that was at first >>obscured by hearing all those punk-rock trees becomes very obvious. "Wire >>play pop," you remember... >> >>The electronics/"not" argument is really getting rather old - I'm glad >>Colin called DeRogatis on that one. It should be incredibly obvious by now >>that "electronics" is eminently capable of producing the thinnest gruel as >>well as stuff of great shining brilliance - because it's not the tools >>producing the music, it's those who use the tools. >> >>Granted, at first just hearing cool sounds can make things like >>electronics - or elec. gutiar feedback, etc. - sound good - but that stuff >>pales over time unless the music's there. >> >>--Jeff >> >>J e f f r e y N o r m a n >>The Architectural Dance Society >>www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html >>::In terms of the conjunctures of cultures, [LA is] less like a salad bowl >>::and more like a TV dinner with those little aluminium barriers keeping >>::all the vegetables in their places. >>__Catherine Ann Driscoll__ >> >> >> > > ------------------------------ Date: 09 May 2000 00:01:45 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re: Wire Discussion Forum Oh, to be an American who just entered his (ahem) 40s and still gets the same thrill out of "Sleep No More"... Jack p.s. There's a new Comsats compilation coming out on Cherry Red any day, replete with unreleased tracks. On Sunday, May 7, 2000, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >many of the list members are Americans in their 20s, >who have probably never heard bands such as Crispy Ambulance or the Comsat >Angels...but in all probability would enjoy the music. > >Mark > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:10:21 -0700 From: "marlon" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "A.J. Wells" To: ; ; Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 2:57 PM Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) > > And 25 New Order shows does me in by a bit, but I think I must have > witnessed around 20 shows over the years... including their first SF gig at > the Cinema with (gulp) The Simple Minds opening up... ... > hey i was at that show too, i lived in san francisco for about 11 years. the simple minds were still good then too (tho just begining their downward spiral). i loved "movement" and "power corruption and lies" i was writing a record review column back then called "vinylspeak" and devoted the entire column one issue to "blue monday" it was brilliant, but i feel it was their peak and they should have stopped there. peace and grease ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 22:16:43 -0400 From: "A.J. Wells" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) >> >> And 25 New Order shows does me in by a bit, but I think I must have >> witnessed around 20 shows over the years... including their first SF gig >at >> the Cinema with (gulp) The Simple Minds opening up... ... >> >hey i was at that show too, i lived in san francisco for about 11 years. the >simple minds were still good then too (tho just begining their downward >spiral). Well the audience seemed to love the Simpletons, who got more of a response than New Order (who were doing the murky Movement tracks at the time), but I hated them and threw whatever I could find at Jim Kerr... his Ferry fixation pissed me off to no end... I loved New Orders' set though, which was raw and unformed and desparately searching > i loved "movement" and "power corruption and lies" i was writing a >record review column back then called "vinylspeak" and devoted the entire >column one issue to "blue monday" it was brilliant, but i feel it was their >peak and they should have stopped there. peace and grease Well you'll get no argument from me about PCL being their peak, but Blue Monday has never done a thing for me... it has always sounded like the weak Patric Cowley/Sylvester joke that it was intended to be... it didnt even sound that fresh in 1982 Aj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:29:24 -0700 From: Brian Barnett Subject: Re: Wire Discussion Forum For those who have not heard the Comsat's I would only say that there body of work can be heralded by the two most timeless pop album's of all time John Cales, Paris 1919 and Colin Neman's Commercial Suicide but yet there depth, breadth and cohesiveness has the depth that only be called classic. Al said there is not much that can be refuted considering that David Thomas threw in his two cents worth. Jack Steinmann wrote: > Oh, to be an American who just entered his (ahem) 40s and still gets the same thrill out of "Sleep No More"... > > Jack > > p.s. There's a new Comsats compilation coming out on Cherry Red any day, replete with unreleased tracks. > > On Sunday, May 7, 2000, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > >many of the list members are Americans in their 20s, > >who have probably never heard bands such as Crispy Ambulance or the Comsat > >Angels...but in all probability would enjoy the music. > > > >Mark > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:45:20 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) > << my experience with New Order live (x3) was that the notes they > missed far > exceeded those played ;) > and they were in constant battle with the electronics >> > > All of which was part of their immense charm live. Barney > couldn't play and > sing at the same time, and was usually off his face. The > electronics were a > mix of the very latest (and highly temperamental) gear and > home-made stuff. > So it was very prone to failure.... > > I saw NO about 25 times in all, and at least 10 of those were > transcendent. > Only about three or four were crap. > > Mark Actually, I have to admit that New Order were one of the reasons I wouldn't agree to listen to anything which was remotely electronic (excluding Wire, of course) for years. I never understood (and think that I never will understand) why people made such a fuss about them, except for them being ex-Joy Division, which sound dated themselves nowadays. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:51:50 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum > When you speak of contemporary music, I'm not sure what you mean. I can't > think of very many current, young rock bands right now who have a shred of > originality. If you can, please tell me about them! "Add N To X" are quite interesting, with their blend of samples, and live music / noises (I know it doesn't sound interesting, cause everyone does it, but they sound quite different). Their last album's called "Avant Hard" - check it out. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 01:53:58 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) - -----Original Message----- From: giluz To: IdealCopy Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 12:46 AM Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) >> << my experience with New Order live (x3) was that the notes they >> missed far >> exceeded those played ;) >> and they were in constant battle with the electronics >> >> >> All of which was part of their immense charm live. Barney >> couldn't play and >> sing at the same time, and was usually off his face. The >> electronics were a >> mix of the very latest (and highly temperamental) gear and >> home-made stuff. >> So it was very prone to failure.... >> >> I saw NO about 25 times in all, and at least 10 of those were >> transcendent. >> Only about three or four were crap. >> >> Mark > >Actually, I have to admit that New Order were one of the reasons I wouldn't >agree to listen to anything which was remotely electronic (excluding Wire, >of course) for years. Ummm ... that sounds a bit silly. For instance, I can't stand Led Zeppelin, but just how close-minded would I have been to have extrapolated that into a stance of "not agreeing to listen to anything which was remotely guitar-based for years"? Then again, to each his own. I never understood (and think that I never will >understand) why people made such a fuss about them, except for them being >ex-Joy Division, which sound dated themselves nowadays. Well, I don't think I've ever made a *fuss* about New Order, though certain of their songs -- Temptation, Love Vigilantes, True Faith, probably a couple of others -- are sterling, & would be without the synths (cf. the Oysterband's version of Love Vigilantes, which I heard before I heard the original, as it happens). Of course, if you're dismissing Joy Division as sounding "dated," obviously we have such completely different perceptions that I might as well be e-mailing to my dog. The blind one. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:18:20 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: Dome 4: Even though there's stuff on wireviews and stuff, I don't know enough about the albums to know what I should check out. >>>>> the only other "genuine" dome releases are the 2 cd's containing the four vinyl albums (1/2 and 3/4). from 1 through to 3 they got gradually weirder and further away from the wire sound. i guess dome 1 isn't so far away from 154 in parts , i'd think most people here would like it. by the time you get to dome 3 we are a long long way from rock music , very experimental and out there. dome 4 takes a sideways step away , vince clark on board and a slightly lighter approach. if you like yclept i can't think why you wouldn't like these. good value too. then you've got all thge "pseudo-dome" releases around the same time ; "8 time" "duet emmo" "p'o". i don't think any of these are quite as good in total as the dome albums (i'm sure some would disagree..) but they have their moments for sure. 5: What's swim~? I gather it's a Newman thing.... yep , its colins label and he has released several cubic metres of stuff by(mostly) 90's electronic acts. some great stuff in there , for a taster try the new "swim team 1" or older "water communication" compilation. try the website.p Buh? - -Joshua ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:24:41 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) > > >Actually, I have to admit that New Order were one of the reasons > I wouldn't > >agree to listen to anything which was remotely electronic > (excluding Wire, > >of course) for years. > > Ummm ... that sounds a bit silly. For instance, I can't stand Led > Zeppelin, > but just how close-minded would I have been to have extrapolated > that into a > stance of "not agreeing to listen to anything which was remotely > guitar-based for years"? Then again, to each his own. It was absolutely silly, of course, but I was much younger then. > I never understood (and think that I never will > >understand) why people made such a fuss about them, except for them being > >ex-Joy Division, which sound dated themselves nowadays. > > Of course, if you're dismissing Joy Division as sounding "dated," > obviously > we have such completely different perceptions that I might as well be > e-mailing to my dog. The blind one. Even though I think Joy Division sound dated, we still share some musical preferences, as far as it comes to Wire, I believe (which do not sound dated), so let's settle on me being a dog, but not blind - ok? giluz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #125 *******************************