From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #124 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, May 8 2000 Volume 03 : Number 124 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Recall: New at this.. [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] RE: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum ["giluz" ] Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] RE: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum ["giluz" ] stirring [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Silo ["D.T. Viecelli" ] Re: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum [Carl Archer ] Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Boston Globe Article ["A. Izenstark" ] chromedboyhowdy [Jim Dingus ] Re: stirring [Andrew N Westmeyer ] N. Collins / BoS (warning: tangent!) ["William Miller" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) ["MackDaddyD" ] Re: beginning to and back again [george.m.hook@ac.com] Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: beginning to and back again [MarkBursa@aol.com] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:48:23 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: Recall: New at this.. i wonder why? ........... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Recall: New at this.. Author: MIME:LRevelos@christies.com at INTERNET Date: 08/05/2000 08:12 Revelos, Lydia would like to recall the message, "New at this..". This message and any attachment are confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please telephone or email the sender and delete the message and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy this message or attachment or disclose the contents to any other person. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 11:41:11 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum absolutely agree with mark 100% ; i love the way this list spirals round onto all sorts of things then loops back to wire. following last weeks discussions i bought a vinyl copy of clock dva "thirst" , i hope i carry on getting inspired by other peoples comments and finding new ideas and inspirations. i am all for discipline , but maybe not quite in this way....... p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Wire Discussion Forum Author: MIME:MarkBursa@aol.com at INTERNET Date: 08/05/2000 10:50 Sean, << I've only just recently joined, and I'm still getting to grips with = e-communication, so forgive me if I don't quite 'know the drill'. But it = seems to me that this Newsgroup has become flooded with mails about = other artistes, causing me to spend too much time 'housekeeping' mails = not directly relevant to Wire. I think we need to get more focussed, and = turn it into a Wire discussion forum. >> Sorry mate, but no. I personally have enjoyed the discussions about other groups and have no intention of indulging in them. Besides, the discussions often loop back to Wire. Also, bringing in other artisites is, I consider, a public service to the list. I have been spurred to listen to a number of other bands because of these discussions, and I hope some of the recommendations I have made about old/obscure bands may have been followed up and have brought enjoyment to others here. Bear in mind that much of the discussion has been about early 80s Brit bands, and that many of the list members are Americans in their 20s, who have probably never heard bands such as Crispy Ambulance or the Comsat Angels...but in all probability would enjoy the music. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:14:24 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum I agree with Mark as well, but I'd prefer it if the other bands would not be only 80's bands but also some more contemporary stuff. giluz > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of paul.rabjohn@ssab.com > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 12:41 PM > To: sean.j.bowen@ukgateway.net; idealcopy@smoe.org; MarkBursa@aol.com > Subject: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum > > > absolutely agree with mark 100% ; i love the way this list > spirals round onto all sorts of things then loops back to wire. > following last weeks discussions i bought a vinyl copy of clock > dva "thirst" , i hope i carry on getting inspired by other > peoples comments and finding new ideas and inspirations. i am all > for discipline , but maybe not quite in this way....... p > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Wire Discussion Forum > Author: MIME:MarkBursa@aol.com at INTERNET > Date: 08/05/2000 10:50 > > > Sean, > > << I've only just recently joined, and I'm still getting to grips with = > e-communication, so forgive me if I don't quite 'know the drill'. > But it = seems to me that this Newsgroup has become flooded with > mails about = other artistes, causing me to spend too much time > 'housekeeping' mails = not directly relevant to Wire. I think we > need to get more focussed, and = turn it into a Wire discussion forum. >> > > Sorry mate, but no. I personally have enjoyed the discussions > about other groups and have no intention of indulging in them. > Besides, the discussions often loop back to Wire. > > Also, bringing in other artisites is, I consider, a public > service to the list. I have been spurred to listen to a number of > other bands because of these discussions, and I hope some of the > recommendations I have made about old/obscure bands may have been > followed up and have brought enjoyment to others here. Bear in > mind that much of the discussion has been about early 80s Brit > bands, and that many of the list members are Americans in their > 20s, who have probably never heard bands such as Crispy Ambulance > or the Comsat Angels...but in all probability would enjoy the music. > > Mark > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 12:39:07 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum I agree with Mark as well, but I'd prefer it if the other bands would not be only 80's bands but also some more contemporary stuff. giluz >>> true , it often tends to end up with that bias. so who are you into at the moment to start the ball rolling? anyone here getting into the silo/symptoms kind of stuff? shame if the highbury shows end up with no support. i think its really good to see some foreplay before the , er , consumation. and given that colin owns a record company you'd think he might want to give some of those acts some exposure. and its always good to see something different. maybe they'll do some dj'ing instead? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:28:28 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum well - The new Swim collection is great, but I didn't get a chance to order anything else from the label (except, of course, the Colin/Malka stuff). Silo and Ronnie & Clyde would be my first choices. It's been some months since I bought something new which was worth discussing. I think the best new release I've heard in the last year was the Secret Chief 3's second CD, but I might be forgetting something else. Actually, I brought the subject up so I could get recommendations of new artists. giluz > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of paul.rabjohn@ssab.com > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 1:39 PM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org; giluz@nettalk.com > Subject: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum > > > I agree with Mark as well, but I'd prefer it if the other bands > would not be only 80's bands but also some more contemporary stuff. > > giluz > >>> true , it often tends to end up with that bias. so who are > you into at the moment to start the ball rolling? anyone here > getting into the silo/symptoms kind of stuff? > > shame if the highbury shows end up with no support. i think its > really good to see some foreplay before the , er , consumation. > and given that colin owns a record company you'd think he might > want to give some of those acts some exposure. and its always > good to see something different. maybe they'll do some dj'ing instead? p > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:41:43 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: stirring well at the risk of raising certain peoples blood pressure , i can only say with some trepidation that somebody on ebay is selling a live tape of the 3/5 san francisco gig. the seller is saying that for more info go to www.pinkflag.com. surely the band aren't behind this? seems a bizarre sales strategy if so. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 07:06:32 -0500 From: "D.T. Viecelli" Subject: Silo "Don't forget Thursday is SILO at the Empty Bottle! charles / wmo" Yes, you better forget that. Silo is at Metro on Thursday (opening for Blonde Redhead and Unwound). Best Regards, David T. Viecelli (Boche Billions) President THE BILLIONS CORPORATION 833 W. Chicago Ave., ste. 101 Chicago, IL 60622-5497 tel: 312-997-9999 fax: 312-997-2287 web: www.billions.com and introducing: BILLIONS AUSTRALIA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 09:30:07 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum Like Archers of Loaf? In my opinion their sound is similar to cross-breeding Wire with The Replacements. "Strangled By The Stereo Wire" particularly comes to mind. You're going to see a lot of discussion on 80's band on this list. I think it's a matter of demographics. On another note, since Love & Rockets broke up last year I've noticed that not only their web site, but also the label's web site (Red Ant) have disappeared. I know that David J has been DJing, but no other news from that camp. Carl > From: "giluz" > Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 13:14:24 +0200 > To: "IdealCopy" > Subject: RE: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum > > I agree with Mark as well, but I'd prefer it if the other bands would not be > only 80's bands but also some more contemporary stuff. > > giluz > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org >> [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of paul.rabjohn@ssab.com >> Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 12:41 PM >> To: sean.j.bowen@ukgateway.net; idealcopy@smoe.org; MarkBursa@aol.com >> Subject: Re[2]: Wire Discussion Forum >> >> >> absolutely agree with mark 100% ; i love the way this list >> spirals round onto all sorts of things then loops back to wire. >> following last weeks discussions i bought a vinyl copy of clock >> dva "thirst" , i hope i carry on getting inspired by other >> peoples comments and finding new ideas and inspirations. i am all >> for discipline , but maybe not quite in this way....... p >> >> >> ______________________________ Reply Separator >> _________________________________ >> Subject: Re: Wire Discussion Forum >> Author: MIME:MarkBursa@aol.com at INTERNET >> Date: 08/05/2000 10:50 >> >> >> Sean, >> >> << I've only just recently joined, and I'm still getting to grips with = >> e-communication, so forgive me if I don't quite 'know the drill'. >> But it = seems to me that this Newsgroup has become flooded with >> mails about = other artistes, causing me to spend too much time >> 'housekeeping' mails = not directly relevant to Wire. I think we >> need to get more focussed, and = turn it into a Wire discussion forum. >> >> >> Sorry mate, but no. I personally have enjoyed the discussions >> about other groups and have no intention of indulging in them. >> Besides, the discussions often loop back to Wire. >> >> Also, bringing in other artisites is, I consider, a public >> service to the list. I have been spurred to listen to a number of >> other bands because of these discussions, and I hope some of the >> recommendations I have made about old/obscure bands may have been >> followed up and have brought enjoyment to others here. Bear in >> mind that much of the discussion has been about early 80s Brit >> bands, and that many of the list members are Americans in their >> 20s, who have probably never heard bands such as Crispy Ambulance >> or the Comsat Angels...but in all probability would enjoy the music. >> >> Mark >> >> > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 15:45:55 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum You're going to see a lot of discussion on 80's band on this list. I think it's a matter of demographics. >>>>> what are you trying to say? spell it out for us..... On another note, since Love & Rockets broke up last year I've noticed that not only their web site, but also the label's web site (Red Ant) have disappeared. I know that David J has been DJing, but no other news from that camp. >>>>> well pete murphy has just put out a greatest hits cd , nice picture of him with blonde hair being printed with a lot of the reviews. review is quite good , must say the bauhaus solo stuff passed me by. i have a dodgy goth past but i sort of got fed up and totally abandoned all that stuff mid/late 80's. was i missing much? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 11:04:32 -0400 From: "A. Izenstark" Subject: Boston Globe Article I couldn't find it online, and they generally make articles unavailable except for a fee after two days. In a couple of days, the article might appear on a database available to certain Boston-area libraries that I have access to. If it does, I'll post the text of the article. Amanda ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 14:00:27 -0400 From: Jim Dingus Subject: chromedboyhowdy >Ah Chrome! Now there's an outfit who hit either end of the quality scale in >their time. And assuming you played anything after getting the Chrome box set out, how >did it sound? Hello all. My first day on the list and I see a Chrome post...think I'll stick around here for a bit. Been a huge WIRE fan since back in the day; but have to admit to a certain affinity towards those EMI years (THE rock trifecta). Going to see them for the second time at the 9:30 Club in Washington DC this Sat. (May 13); will try and post a review soon after. First time I saw them was on The Ideal Copy tour w/Ex-Lion Tamer at the "old" 9:30 Club. A good solid show, but I've been waiting 20 (geeeeez, has it been that long?) to hear the guitars roar. Also, have played in several bands, all of which would do at least one WIRE cover. BTW, I'm on the digest, so I won't be responding immediately. Glad to be here. Thanks. Out. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:34:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: stirring Excerpts from mail: 8-May-100 stirring by paul.rabjohn@ssab.com > somebody on ebay is selling a live tape of the 3/5 san francisco gig. It's item #326537443, in case anyone wants to check it out. I don't know who's doing this. The person's handle is "superflyww". His (her) other auction items are mostly music magazines. Hopefully no one on the list will bid on this. The seller is asking for 15 USD, which is quite a lot more than the cost of the cassette and postage. As far as I know, the band is not behind this. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "I've been known to dabble." -007 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 15:30:57 -0400 From: "William Miller" Subject: N. Collins / BoS (warning: tangent!) >Poss and Stenger were the founding members of New York >"drone-rock" band Band of Susans. Both come from >varying musical backgrounds: Poss played in punk/rock >groups Tot Rocket and Western Eyes as well as >performing with avant-guitarist Rhys Chatham and >electronicist Nicolas Collins. I was so exited to see this article posted, not simply because it's about Wire, but because Nicholas Collins is a teacher of mine....seriously, the man is a superstar. Not only is he awesome and smart and has been involved in so much, but he's so funny and personable....sigh. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Indeed. Band of Susans is one of my favorite rock bands, and Poss sent me a copy of Nicholas Collins' "100 of the world's most beautiful melodies" (title recalled incorrectly, I'm sure) when I bought two old BoS vinyls off of him via mail. That Collins CD is truly remarkable. I've found any number of uses for it. I expect this GilbertPossStenger release is interesting, at the very least. ken _____________________________________ Get your free E-mail at http://www.ireland.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 16:29:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Dome I haven't seen much discussion on this list about Dome, but I want to hear some for the following reasons: 1: I got a copy of MZUI Australia (pacific/specific (in a different place) a couple of years ago and liked what I heard (much of it for the same reasons I like Document and Eyewitness: the this-is-real-warts-and-all feeling). This is the first I'd heard of Dome. 2: I recently bought yclept and am listening to it right now. It's some of the thickest music I've ever heard. It's the aural equivalent of swimming in an ant colony. 3: I don't have any sort of discography and CDNow, Amazon, et al. are no help whatsoever. (Oh, really? They published an album called Yclept? Huh.) 4: Even though there's stuff on wireviews and stuff, I don't know enough about the albums to know what I should check out. 5: What's swim~? I gather it's a Newman thing.... Buh? - -Joshua ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 15:22:46 -0500 From: "MackDaddyD" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) > Subject: Wire Discussion Forum ... > What does anyone else think ? Am I in the minority ? Or just > impatient ? the list veers OT v often but is generally amusing IMO\ moderation is not particularly what it's > Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:08:35 -0400 > From: "A.J. Wells" > Subject: Re: FW: They've been touring for a while... > > can you imagine a guitarist saying "I would never use a preset actually....yes - i have worked with them - er i am them and how about all those purist guitarrists who have to design their own axe mine only has one knob mine has resonating drone strings and scalloped frets for that matter look at the Les Paul i rest my case with that one > I mean you wouldnt expect painters to have to create the paint they use from scratch or a photographer to cook his > own emulsions up... ah , but some do...and some pervert the technology to fantastic ends i forget the photog's name from whom manray 'borrowed' rayograph technology , but for another example, stan brakhages techniques with leader were awe-inspiring - and some of the works people have done with prepared piano and gutar are marvelous to my ears as well > this music is all the stronger for having > few to zero options... another approach - which i personally find very rewarding, but don't disparage those who must build the vehicles for their particular vision > Bernard said in 1982 "it doesnt matter if you are using a Fairlight or > playing your song on a saw, its the NOTES you play that counts"... I dont > know that that is always true... there are interesting records that are all > about sound and nothing to do with notes, but it still holds generally > true... my experience with New Order live (x3) was that the notes they missed far exceeded those played ;) and they were in constant battle with the electronics > >: Re: Wire in LA > The next morning my friend and I went out for breakfast and bumped into > the band having coffee! We spoke with Colin and Graham for a bit before > they had to leave for their plane to Seattle. maybe that's the reason for the dano - *i* wouldn't want to check a guitar i cared about between every show if the airline loses one of those new danos, a replacement can be found at a guitar center in (almost?) every town on the us schedule gratuous plug - i came *that* close to buying the danelectro baritone but decided to try taking up bass instead it *would* be ideal for one of those bass-less combo with a treble and an alto guitar duo and real-cool-surf-sounds too! david __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:00:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) On Mon, 8 May 2000, MackDaddyD wrote: > > I mean you wouldnt expect painters to have to create the paint they use > > from scratch or a photographer to cook his > > own emulsions up... > ah , but some do... Yeah, like that Van Gough feller. In fact, it wasn't until 80 years ago or so that you could buy paints at all. Oh, and Diego Rivera, who invented acrylic paints. In fact, a lot of painters make their own paints. And a lot of photographiers (for instance, Richard Benson, Dean of Fine Arts at Yale, and the dude who printed Madonna's crapfest Sex, the best book on Edward Curtis) develop their own processes entirely. Check out the every entertaining Gravikords, Whirlies and Pyrophones by Elipsis Arts for a whole buttload of people who make their own instuments. Intro by Tom Waits. (The above does not mean that I necessarily like all of the music represented on the album, but some of it's good, some is funny, and Harry Parch (track 8, if memory serves) is just an argument against music in general.) > > this music is all the stronger for having > > few to zero options... > another approach - which i personally find very rewarding, but don't > disparage those who must build the vehicles for their particular vision Yeah, what's wrong with stretching your media? DaVinci did a lot of experiments that didn't work. We've lost a lot of his paintings because he used materials that didn't last. But that doesn't mean he didn't do some of the most beautiful, influential, and creative art Europe ever produced. - -Joshua ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 16:16:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: beginning to and back again On Mon, 8 May 2000, giluz wrote: > > To: idealcopy@smoe.org; professor ned > > > > at least those REM or Clash clones had to learn the three chords and at > least > > on their records you can hear the human error inherent in what they are > > playing... > > I totally disagree here: Remember that punk bands were considered as bad > musicians because they could hardly play those same 3 chords, didn't do > solos or didn't have a classical music education. The same attitude goes > right back to the 50's when rock 'n roll began. Rock's revolutions always > started by simplifying the technical side of playing and enabling > non-musicians to participate. This happened everytime the current trend got > too professional for amateurs. And it's always been this tension between accomplishment and exploration that's been interesting about rock (used in the broadest possible sense) for me. Wire themselves are a great example - in terms of, oh I dunno, some athletic wanker like Steve Vai, I suppose they can barely play their instruments - but in terms of composing, arranging, sculpting sound, etc. - - i.e., what it is that Wire do - they're nonpareil. That is, shift the angle of the lens as to what you're judging as "good" - or as "music" - and the results change. I don't care if people who make music can > play any instruments - I do care if they make good music. You still have to > be a musician to make even (good) electronic music, and that's even if you > haven't played an analogue instrument in your entire life. I'd agree..except that part of what happens (I think you say this below) is what counts as "good music" gets redefined: we get used to hearing, say, The Clash - and suddenly the fact that not only did they have the expected punk urgency *but also* a great melodic sense that was at first obscured by hearing all those punk-rock trees becomes very obvious. "Wire play pop," you remember... The electronics/"not" argument is really getting rather old - I'm glad Colin called DeRogatis on that one. It should be incredibly obvious by now that "electronics" is eminently capable of producing the thinnest gruel as well as stuff of great shining brilliance - because it's not the tools producing the music, it's those who use the tools. Granted, at first just hearing cool sounds can make things like electronics - or elec. gutiar feedback, etc. - sound good - but that stuff pales over time unless the music's there. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::In terms of the conjunctures of cultures, [LA is] less like a salad bowl ::and more like a TV dinner with those little aluminium barriers keeping ::all the vegetables in their places. __Catherine Ann Driscoll__ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:54:44 -0400 From: "A.J. Wells" Subject: Re: beginning to and back again I agree the "electronics vs non-electro" thing is a non issue, and know there are no rules... if something makes sense and sounds good at a particular point in time, then it does, whether made in a computer environment or on an old guitar in a dusty garage... my only point was trying to figure out why this music sounds so fresh at the moment, when by all reasoning it should sound like a blast from the past... and I do think that it has something to do with the sameness of a lot of music at the moment resulting from a homogenization of materials, techniques and ideas... and also with how fleeting pop musics' sense of "nowness" is... there is an element of fashion, because its part of the popular artists job to make something new, or at least make something feel new... and I think that some of this has to do with why this band sounds so vital at the moment... it just "feels" new at the moment... I dont know whether the band will evolve into a rejuvenated creative unit, and for the moment that doesn't matter... Aj - -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey To: Grand Mute Proof Date: Monday, May 08, 2000 5:18 PM Subject: beginning to and back again >On Mon, 8 May 2000, giluz wrote: > >> > To: idealcopy@smoe.org; professor ned >> > >> > at least those REM or Clash clones had to learn the three chords and at >> least >> > on their records you can hear the human error inherent in what they are >> > playing... >> >> I totally disagree here: Remember that punk bands were considered as bad >> musicians because they could hardly play those same 3 chords, didn't do >> solos or didn't have a classical music education. The same attitude goes >> right back to the 50's when rock 'n roll began. Rock's revolutions always >> started by simplifying the technical side of playing and enabling >> non-musicians to participate. This happened everytime the current trend got >> too professional for amateurs. > >And it's always been this tension between accomplishment and exploration >that's been interesting about rock (used in the broadest possible sense) >for me. Wire themselves are a great example - in terms of, oh I dunno, >some athletic wanker like Steve Vai, I suppose they can barely play their >instruments - but in terms of composing, arranging, sculpting sound, etc. >- i.e., what it is that Wire do - they're nonpareil. That is, shift the >angle of the lens as to what you're judging as "good" - or as "music" - >and the results change. > >I don't care if people who make music can >> play any instruments - I do care if they make good music. You still have to >> be a musician to make even (good) electronic music, and that's even if you >> haven't played an analogue instrument in your entire life. > >I'd agree..except that part of what happens (I think you say this below) >is what counts as "good music" gets redefined: we get used to hearing, >say, The Clash - and suddenly the fact that not only did they have the >expected punk urgency *but also* a great melodic sense that was at first >obscured by hearing all those punk-rock trees becomes very obvious. "Wire >play pop," you remember... > >The electronics/"not" argument is really getting rather old - I'm glad >Colin called DeRogatis on that one. It should be incredibly obvious by now >that "electronics" is eminently capable of producing the thinnest gruel as >well as stuff of great shining brilliance - because it's not the tools >producing the music, it's those who use the tools. > >Granted, at first just hearing cool sounds can make things like >electronics - or elec. gutiar feedback, etc. - sound good - but that stuff >pales over time unless the music's there. > >--Jeff > >J e f f r e y N o r m a n >The Architectural Dance Society >www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html >::In terms of the conjunctures of cultures, [LA is] less like a salad bowl >::and more like a TV dinner with those little aluminium barriers keeping >::all the vegetables in their places. >__Catherine Ann Driscoll__ > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:28:40 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: Re: beginning to and back again I'm looking forward to seeing Wire do their electronic-synthesizer phase in a "beat-combo" format on Wednesday in Chicago. Just so long as it isn't totally "unplugged" (though I'd be willing to listen to that as well). I wonder if the whole conflict, however, boils down to Wire using a drum machine at some point, rather than relying on Gotobed. Apparently, that decision resulted in Wir, and Gotobed insisting that the drum machine be "fired" (like an android Pete Best) was a condition for the reunion. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:45:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[4]: Wire Discussion Forum Paul, << You're going to see a lot of discussion on 80's band on this list. I think it's a matter of demographics. >>>>> what are you trying to say? spell it out for us..... >> He's saying we're a bunch of sad old anoraks!!!! And proud of it too..... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:54:21 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #123 (vaious replies) Mack, << my experience with New Order live (x3) was that the notes they missed far exceeded those played ;) and they were in constant battle with the electronics >> All of which was part of their immense charm live. Barney couldn't play and sing at the same time, and was usually off his face. The electronics were a mix of the very latest (and highly temperamental) gear and home-made stuff. So it was very prone to failure.... I saw NO about 25 times in all, and at least 10 of those were transcendent. Only about three or four were crap. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 19:05:08 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: beginning to and back again George, << I'm looking forward to seeing Wire do their electronic-synthesizer phase in a "beat-combo" format on Wednesday in Chicago. Just so long as it isn't totally "unplugged" (though I'd be willing to listen to that as well). I wonder if the whole conflict, however, boils down to Wire using a drum machine at some point, rather than relying on Gotobed. >> What you'll see is not the 'electronic synthesizer phase' but a mix of the punk/post-punk phase and the 'beat combo' phase. Nothing newer than 'Silk Skin Paws' or 'Boiling Boy' off ABIACUIIS has been played so far, other than the two all-new tunes. Electronics/drum machines hardly figured in Wire's live set until 1990, when they toured as Wir. The way they're playing, say, Ideal Copy tracks is much the same as it was in 1986. The conflict might come when it comes to recording. In the '80s, Colin was into using click-tracks and sampled drums. From what's being said now, I would think that's not an issue - ie it is more 'of the time' to record with a real drummer than to use too much technology. Even so, it's hard to imagine them not adding some extra textures in the studio (they were doing so as far back as Chairs Missing) with keyboards. I guess as long as it's 'as well as' rather than 'instead of' then Robert will be happy..... again, in the 70s they were quite capable of recreating most of the songs live with G-B-D-V.... Now Bruce unplugged....there's a thought! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 19:24:59 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] VirusWall NT); Mon, 08 May 2000 11:44:41 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: by INET-IMC-01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) id ; Mon, 8 May 2000 11:44:41 -0700 Message-ID: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C1B9A4998@RED-MSG-56> From: Mitch Goldman To: "'idealcopy@smoe.org'" Subject: Drums and WIRE(s) in Seattle 5/6/00 Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 11:44:40 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk > We arrived at the Showbox a bit late, thanks > to inexplicable bridge traffic, and missed the > first ten-fifteen minutes of Hovercraft. We caught > about the last 20, and as usual the 'craft were > pretty amazing...playing in front of fast-paced films, > with no lights except the light of the project, the threesome > pummelled away at one long piece of instrumental > madness that swung to and from Buttholes/Swans/SY/Floyd > territory. What sounded like improvisational music gave > way to very composed stuff, as maddeningly intense > music synched up with really cool roller coaster and > speeding-through-tunnel music. The final image was > a slow motion shot of a lightbulb hitting the ground and > exploding...this to the sound of the music hitting an intense > climax and then stopping abruptly. The guitarist had a weird > piece of plastic shoved under his Strat's strings while he > wailed away at noisy feedback the whole time. Very cool stuff, > even for 20 minutes. (Hovercraft can make their point in a very > short amount of playing time!) They left the stage at 8:40, > and Wire came out at 8:59. > > We had seats at a table near the back of the Showbox, which > was respectably full but not sold out. I went up close to the stage, > on Lewis's side, for about five songs (from Boiling boy to the middle > of 40 Versions). it was very intense to see them up close. > > They played no keyboards whatsoever...this was a textbook "drums > and wires" performance, to quote XTC. Lewis played a Fender P bass > for all but two songs (40 versions and Drill found him with a Steinberger, > i think...no headstock). Colin played a sparkly Danelectro...Bruce Gilbert > played some red guitar with a maple neck, who's lineage i couldn't quite > figure out. Richard looked like a skinny older gent, but pounded on his > drums with a precision unmatched by most humans...on the 80's tunes > he was truly a human drum machine. Just awesome. Bruce looks totally > grey, and basically stood in one spot all night, coaxing layers of > shimmering > sounds from his red guitar, looking over his glasses at Colin and Lewis. > Colin > still looks great, a nice full head of hair, easily the "youngest" looking > Wire > bloke. Lewis has a shaved head! but otherwise looked the same, at least > from pictures...this was my first time seeing them live. > > As for the show, it was nothing short of amazing. The 70's tunes were > either extended > into intense, trancey Swans-like pieces (Pink Flag, a KILLER!!! extended > 40 Versions) or were done in straightforward short-punk style (Lowdown, > Another > The Letter). The 80's tunes...well, it was amazing to hear NO keys on > these > usually-sequencer heavy numbers, but they didn't suffer at all. In fact > Colin > and Bruce combined to create such layered, full guitar sounds that the new > arrangements ended up being the best of "both" Wire's. This was actually > what > Wire has done with these shows: fuse the guitar Wire with the 80s Wire > into > the "best of both"; a band that can translate melody and power into > trance-like > mini-operatic numbers that have the precision of synth tunes with the > intensity > of guitar music. For guitar geeks like me, this was heaven! In addition, > the core > Wire "personality" shone through every number. My only complaint (other > than > listing 35 tunes I *wish* they had played!) was that Lewis didn't do any > lead vocals, > other than part of the new tune He Knows. (they're selling a limited > edition "rehearsal" > cd for 15 bucks, pricey but there's only 1000 of them so grab one if you > go to the > shows...this has a new version of Blessed State that should be in the set, > if only > to give us *one* tune from Lewis's brooding catalog of vocals.) > > Setlist (8:59-9:59): > > Pink Flag > Silk Skin Paws > The Boiling Boy > Lowdown > Advantage in Height > He Knows > 40 Versions > Another The Letter > Mercy > > Encores: > > 12XU > Drill > > The songs: > > PINK FLAG: > > Richard kicked this off on the drums, and it just exploded from > there. Much longer than the studio version, with furious layers > of guitar that built and built towards the end...Colin has removed > the melody from the "how many dead or alive??" chorus line, but > it works anyway. > > SILK SKIN PAWS: > > the first proof that they can transform the 80's material. this > went on for about six minutes; very textural. GREAT offbeats from > Richard. > > BOILING BOY: > > similar treatment to Silk Skin Paws; Bruce and Colin meshed > perfectly as it built and built... > > LOWDOWN: > > the first tune to be played short and just like the original version. > The crowd chanted along with Colin's "that's the lowdown" spoken > part. Hard to explain just how cool it was to see them play this > legendary tune up close. > > ADVANTAGE IN HEIGHT: > > also short and just like the record, except all done on guitars. > Richard's drumming was precise, and Lewis's backup vocals > on the chorus made him look like he was positively in pain. > As on the other tunes, Colin, Lewis and Bruce occasionally > closed their eyes and submitted to the hypnotic throb of > their own music. > > HE KNOWS: > > one of the new tunes; this was slow and creepy. Lewis > had some lead vocals at the end. > > 40 VERSIONS: > > Bruce and Colin generated feedback for several minutes > while Lewis changed basses. This tune gets the award for > "most changed"...a little pop tune that closes 154 is now > a huge, hypnotic, intense-as-hell 12 minute number. Very Swans-like > dynamic layer after the vocals. > > ANOTHER THE LETTER: > > short, intense, to-the-point, just like the version on CHAIRS MISSING. > > MERCY: > > jeez, this was flat out amazing. Lewis screamed like a banshee > in the closing moments, a whole ending section was added to the song > not present on the CHAIRS version, and it made a perfect setcloser. > > 12XU: > > Very intense, VERY fast, Lewis screaming again like a nut, > Colin grinning like a kid during the "got you in a corner" lyrics. > Another legendary tune and a moment i'd never thought i'd see... > the original Wire playing one of the great punk tunes of all time. wow. > > DRILL: > > More of a "drill variation" (a la THE DRILL cd), Colin never sang > the verses or the "if this is not an exercise" choruses...they just > rang out with shards of OBSCENELY loud feedback and noise, built > and built for minutes until Colin finally screamed "could this BE A > DRILL!!!" > at which point everyone but Richard stopped, and they built up the > whole thing AGAIN!! Lewis again screamed like a nut as the music > built up in intensity. Finally with another "Could this BE A DRILL!" > shout they ended on a dime. > > exactly 60 minutes after they took the stage, they left. Dare i say > it was a nearly perfect performance? Cause it was. > > Don't miss this show. It's not nostalgia, it's a re-synthesis of > everything > Wire used to be, and everything they are in 2000. Here's hoping they'll > stick around this time, but if they don't, they sure know how to pop their > heads in every decade or so and blow us all away. Long live Wire!!! > > MG > ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #124 *******************************