From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #96 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, April 11 2000 Volume 03 : Number 096 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Old Elastica Quote [John Roberts ] Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... [Wireviews ] Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... [John Roberts ] Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... [ajwells@ix.netcom.com] RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... [John Roberts ] RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... [John Roberts Subject: Re: Old Elastica Quote If you listen to the XFM interview pre-Dublin gig at tbe XFM website, Bruce acknowledges this very point i.e. that it's difficult to write anything new. As Bruce states, it's called the postmodern condition. The question remains however, how to legislate against or for this condition and/or if one can *still* come up with something 'original'. I think we have to reconsider what music, art, whatever, pop or otherwise *is* now. The days of the contained modernist work are over. I think its significant that Wire have their own website. The future might be that Wire 'works' are going to be on the one hand, on-line, contingent, constantly and consistently morphing, virtual 'texts' along the lines of the more experimental stuff that Wire solo artists have released rather than hold in your hand, play on your turntable, pieces for nostalgia, and on the other, precisely those hold in your hand, play on your turntable, etc, beat combo classics that we also love and of which Mr Gotobed is so fond. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 06:09:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... - --- Casper Milquetoast wrote: > I am really not defending Elastica here, just saying > that writting > anything *original* is difficult, if not impossible. This argument is getting increasingly dated, and I have to say that I completely disagree with it, along with any comment that Bruce Gilbert may have made in a similar direction. Sure, with each passing year there is more and more material, and it becomes increasingly difficult to bring out anything that is blindingly original. Perhaps in the mainstream this is always the case, but the underground always has a huge selection of acts that reach for the cutting edge with some degree of success and originality (viz. RealWorld, Gecko, etc, and for those Wire-philes, Swim~ and Thousand, both of which have an array of talent who may take elements from older acts, but rarely "steal" wholesale). The problem comes when a band creates a direct facsimile, which is the trap Elastica fell into a few times, but hopefully have learned from and avoided now (I haven't heard "Menace" so I cannot possibly comment on that release). Despite my comments about this band last year (which were overtly negative/playing devil's advocate to try and stir up some comment) I always thought they made a good "noise" despite rather ropey writing at times. However, a comparison can probably be made with Wire in terms of "originality" or "skew". Pink Flag was made of mangled rock classics, the sources of some pieces were more or less obvious if you could read through said mangle. If. Elastica simply took a Wire track and bolted on a new lyric, whilst playing it in a power-pop manner. This isn't clever or original. It's lazy. The argument, of course, is that it may be witty, post-modern, or that in the 20-odd years between Pink Flag and Elastica's debut, it is no longer possible to write original songs. Bullshit. Take Moby's Natural Blues - an obvious take on "Trouble so Hard" (and fully credited as such) - reminiscent of the original, but so different in approach that it attains its own identity. > Personally I think > that Elastica did rip off Wire along with others in > the process, but > where do you draw the line in this case? I think Elastica handled the situation badly at the time, but this was probably down to being a little naive rather than outright defiance of where to "draw the line". I imagine various members of Wire have their own opinions as to whether or not they agree with the court cases that happened, but remember that the band did not initiate said legal wrangles. However, I remember an interview where Elastica mentioned that they originally planned to sample "Three Girl Rhumba" and make the track overtly electronic; merely using the Wire riff as a driver for a piece of their own. Now that would have been more interesting than the cover version that they inevitably ended up with (although "Connection" wasn't nearly as bad as "No More Heroes"/"Waking up"). For the record, I am certain the quote mentioned on this list was meant to be taken in an ironic manner. It's not as though Elastica ever denied their liking of Wire/The Fall/Stranglers, etc. > When hip hop began and DJ > sampling became a musical standard, would anyone > consider this ripping off the original artists? > Personally I believe > hip-hop to be a logical evolution in rebellious > music, people couldn't > afford instruments so they used their record players > instead. Now these > days, buying a set of turntables is insane with the > cost involved. Now is the realm of the sampler, which has taken over from the decks of the '80s. As far as mainstream underground goes, I guess the KLF started the trend of overtly nicking pieces from earlier records (although they did this in a laddish and quite funny manner, mostly due to the cheesy nature of the samples). Now one can hear pieces of old records everywhere. Even Swim~ get in on the act, the most recent example being Steve Gear's piece on Swim Team #1 which contains the opening bars of "Ahead" in the background. The point is, however, that the song isn't "Ahead" in any other way. Perhaps that's where one draws the line. Or simply records a cover version instead... Craig/Wireviews. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 14:53:50 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... > The problem comes when a band creates a direct > facsimile, which is the trap Elastica fell into a few > times, but hopefully have learned from and avoided now > (I haven't heard "Menace" so I cannot possibly comment > on that release). Despite my comments about this band If the review in today's Guardian is anything to go by they still are ripping off Wire. One track is described as 'Lowdown played badly'. > simply took a Wire track and bolted on a new lyric, > whilst playing it in a power-pop manner. This isn't > clever or original. It's lazy. The argument, of > course, is that it may be witty, post-modern, or that I totally agree that it's lazy. I certainly wasn't defending Elastica. I think they're dreadful. You *can* be pomo and witty and even 'original' imo. I know this will raise a chuckle with certain listers but take Half Man Half Biscuit as an example. Their songs are by and large reducible to riffs which they have written themselves - which have inevitably been constructed according to the same patterns in some shape or form during the history of rock and pop - and other more specific and identifiable riffs which they have deliberately inserted into the song for comic effect. Witness 'Fretwork Homework' with the chorus lifted from AC/DC's 'Whole Lotta Rosie'. Similary the lyrics are constructed from phrases, narratives, and even words that have ultimately been used in similar orders elsewhere. And again, crap puns and word play and insertions from references to popular culture make for an 'original' comic effect e.g. refs to Kendo Nagasaki, Dickie Davies, songtitles like 'Starship Enterprise Allowance Scheme', 'Architecture, Morality, Ted and Alice' etc. What is lazy, unoriginal and thoroughly despicable is when some dumbass f**kwit like M J Hibbert releases a CD with references to Kendo Nagasaki and Dickie Davies on it because he is so talentless and devoid of an 'original' idea that he and the sad chronies (numbering probably about three) who buy his records think that this is somehow ironic and funny. Its not - its plagiarism. It all reminds me of a Morecambe and Wise routine in which someone tries to sell them a joke. M&W: 'You ought to try selling your stuff to Jimmy Tarbuck.' Man: 'Why, would he use my material?' M&W: 'I don't see why not, he uses everyone elses.' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:09:40 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of John Roberts Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 3:54 PM To: Wireviews Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Folllowing the debate between John and Casper: It all goes to show that it's not a question of WHAT you're ripping off or how much it's similar to the original, but of HOW you do it. The examples both of you used show how a rip-off can be original if it's done by someone talented and crap when it's done by a wanker. That's why a lawsuit in these cases is irrelevant (except for the financial side, of course): There is no law which can determine originality in art. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:29:20 -0700 From: ajwells@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... giluz wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of > John Roberts > Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 3:54 PM > To: Wireviews > Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... > > Folllowing the debate between John and Casper: > > It all goes to show that it's not a question of WHAT you're ripping off or > how much it's similar to the original, but of HOW you do it. The examples > both of you used show how a rip-off can be original if it's done by someone > talented and crap when it's done by a wanker. So its against the law to be a wanker? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:14:23 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... My take on this entire issue can be summarized in the following manner. Sampling can be a complete, horrible swipe... or it can be the creation of new music and sometimes art. Examples: Sampling as Swipe: M.C. Hammer swiping Rick James' "Superfreak" and claiming that "Can't Touch This" is entirely his composition. Vanilla Ice swiping Bowie/Queen's "Under Pressure" and claiming that "Ice, Ice, Baby" is entirely his creation. Sampling as Art: Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed the original in "Halcyon + on + on". My 2 cents, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: giluz [mailto:gil@nettalk.co.il] Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 9:10 AM To: IdealCopy Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of John Roberts Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 3:54 PM To: Wireviews Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Folllowing the debate between John and Casper: It all goes to show that it's not a question of WHAT you're ripping off or how much it's similar to the original, but of HOW you do it. The examples both of you used show how a rip-off can be original if it's done by someone talented and crap when it's done by a wanker. That's why a lawsuit in these cases is irrelevant (except for the financial side, of course): There is no law which can determine originality in art. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:53:34 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: menaced by justine justine was the guest on jo whiley last week , her comment on the richard ashcroft single was that she liked it because "so few bands write original songs these days". indeed , justine , indeed. :-) bought the album on saturday and it has its moments , although not a patch on the first one. "human" is a great re-write of "lowdown" (the lads get co-credited so that's a bit more for the piggy banks) and there's a few other good ones on there. obviously material was a little short ; 4 of the tracks from the recent ep get another airing (including the pathetic kidney bingos re-write which must be the worst thing they've done). also 2 blatant adam ant rip-offs a filler instrumental and a cover of da da da , so they didn't exactly wear out the creative juices overly. i won't say go buy it , i did because i'm going to see them tonight and wanted to hear it in advance. wonder if they'll do 12xu? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 16:07:11 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... > Sampling as Art: > > Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and > giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed > the original in "Halcyon + on + on". Dunno if that can be extended to their use of Butthole Surfers and Crucifix. As good records as the Orbital ones that sample these acts are I'd sooner have the originals. I guess Orbital were trying to juxtaposition a punk rock aesthetic within the dance scene. As you probably know one of them is an ageing punk rocker. And the sample of Jim Morrison's 'Wake Up' sounded a bit corny at the time and even more so now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:20:04 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: Originality/Creating a facsimile... i loved oscar wilde's quote when reviewing the work of a contemporary "your work was both good and original. however , the good bits were not original. and the original bits were not good." now , where's that elastica cd gone...... ps any reports on "all tomorrows parties"? p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 10:07:16 PDT From: "bren mac greine" Subject: elastica do it again..... It's probably been said here before but Elastica cover 'Kidney Bingos' on their last EP and on their new LP. Cant remember the exact song title (2nd track on the EP) but the chorus IS Kidney Bingos.... they've just changed the lyrics. And funnily enough the verse dipslays an uncanny resemblence to P.TV's Godstar?!!? And to add to Elastica's appreciation of Wire they played '12xu' an an encore at their Astoria show in Jan, with Mr Gilbert air-guitaring in the wings. ciao Bren ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 13:11:34 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Ray, << Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed the original in "Halcyon + on + on". >> Credit to whom? The Opus III version is itself a sample (or rerecording) of the original 'It's a fine day', released in the mid-80s as an acappella song by Jane, and written by Edward Barton.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:19:23 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Ah, Edward Barton. Now we're talking. Come on, how many of you can recite 'Knob Gob', 'The Man Who Killed My Brother' or 'Chickens...Chairs'? Yup. Most definitely an original. On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Ray, > > << Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and > giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed > the original in "Halcyon + on + on". >> > > Credit to whom? The Opus III version is itself a sample (or rerecording) of > the original 'It's a fine day', released in the mid-80s as an acappella song > by Jane, and written by Edward Barton.... > > Mark > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:49:41 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Once again, it's an issue of 'Your mileage may vary'. As far as the Orbital - Halcyon + on + on/Opus III - A Fine Day comparison, it's really an Apples & Oranges kind of comparison... A Fine Day was a sweet pop song that quickly became annoying after only a few listens. Halcyon + on + on takes a small portion of that song, i.e. Kirsty's angelic voice, and manipulates it to the point that it sounds very little like the original song. As far as Orbital are concerned, I think they the Brothers Hartnoll are far enough along in their 10 year+ careers to shed any genre labels. Do we still call Wire a 'Punk' band because they did 12XU back in the 1970's? I'm an armchair electronica fan (I've never been to a rave, and don't dance at concerts), and in a certain way Orbital remind me a bit of Wire. Not necessarily in their musical styles, but in the fact that you have adults (over the age of 30) who 'compose' music without much regard for existing 'pop' fads or tastes. They aren't necessarily 4 guys in a garage. I also find a certain 'cinematic' quality and depth to Wire and Orbital's compositions that I don't find in many of their contemporaries. Getting down off of the soapbox, Ray Ciscon -----Original Message----- From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 10:07 AM To: Ciscon, Ray Cc: IdealCopy Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... > Sampling as Art: > > Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and > giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed > the original in "Halcyon + on + on". Dunno if that can be extended to their use of Butthole Surfers and Crucifix. As good records as the Orbital ones that sample these acts are I'd sooner have the originals. I guess Orbital were trying to juxtaposition a punk rock aesthetic within the dance scene. As you probably know one of them is an ageing punk rocker. And the sample of Jim Morrison's 'Wake Up' sounded a bit corny at the time and even more so now. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:51:59 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... I believe that the part of "It's a fine day" that Orbital sampled, was Kirsty Hawkshaw singing 'la la la la la' a couple of different times. Barton gets credited as composer in both Opus III and Orbital's credits, but the actual singing was Kirsty Hawkshaw. Cheers, Ray Ciscon Remote Office LAN/WAN Support Manager Comark, Inc. In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 12:12 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Ray, << Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed the original in "Halcyon + on + on". >> Credit to whom? The Opus III version is itself a sample (or rerecording) of the original 'It's a fine day', released in the mid-80s as an acappella song by Jane, and written by Edward Barton.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:55:14 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Never heard of any of them... but then again the vast majority of U.S. citizens have never heard anything from Opus III, Orbital, or Wire for that matter. Ray Ciscon -----Original Message----- From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 12:19 PM To: MarkBursa@aol.com Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... Ah, Edward Barton. Now we're talking. Come on, how many of you can recite 'Knob Gob', 'The Man Who Killed My Brother' or 'Chickens...Chairs'? Yup. Most definitely an original. On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > Ray, > > << Orbital sampling 8 seconds of vocals from Opus III's "A Fine Day" (and > giving proper credit), and turning it into a work of art that FAR surpassed > the original in "Halcyon + on + on". >> > > Credit to whom? The Opus III version is itself a sample (or rerecording) of > the original 'It's a fine day', released in the mid-80s as an acappella song > by Jane, and written by Edward Barton.... > > Mark > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 11:30:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: Originality and other old ideas Some random reflections on the Elastica/originality topic: I’m not sure that postmodernism disallows originality, as some listers seem to be implying. Postmodernism, for all its talk of pastiche and parody, surely advertises itself as a manifesto for originality (the very term suggests something new, a break, a John Roberts says, with the benighted modernist past of “discrete” and “self-contained” works). Still, the question of whether popular music is more or less original than it ever was is almost impossible to answer, since the meaning of the term “originality” has changed so much through the years. It’s still a tricky term. I just invested in the Roxy Music Valentine CD-ROM (everyone here should get hold of it – six stunning early Roxy performances). It occurred to me that Roxy are often hailed as the most original group of the 70s (they were certainly among the best, if not the best). But when you think about it, Ferry was a magpie pinching from everyone (although his borrowings were quite different from many of his contemporaries - and he had Eno to add further magic). Finally, to go off at a total tangent, I read in kevin Eden’s book that early Roxy were felt to be like the fledgling Wire. But who was it said that (early) Roxy and (early) Wire had anything in common, apart from sharing the art-school background and a stage during the former’s Manifesto tour? Is there any evidence that anyone thought them similar at the time? Do any listers see the comparisons? Just wondered. Stephen - --- John Roberts wrote: > If you listen to the XFM interview pre-Dublin > gig at tbe XFM website, > Bruce acknowledges this very point i.e. that > it's difficult to write > anything new. As Bruce states, it's called the > postmodern condition. > > The question remains however, how to legislate > against or for this > condition and/or if one can *still* come up > with something 'original'. I > think we have to reconsider what music, art, > whatever, pop or otherwise > *is* now. The days of the contained modernist > work are over. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:42:35 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Originality/Creating a facsimile... John, << Ah, Edward Barton. Now we're talking. Come on, how many of you can recite 'Knob Gob', 'The Man Who Killed My Brother' or 'Chickens...Chairs'? Yup. Most definitely an original. >> I remember seeing him perform on the Tube on UK TV once, which was extreme and highly amusing.... This meek looking guy just exploded, eyes bulging, thrashing the f*** out of an acoustic guitar. I think the song was called "Me and my mini" but I'm going from memory...Is there a best of? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:46:34 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Originality and other old ideas Stephen,: << But who was it said that (early) Roxy and (early) Wire had anything in common, apart from sharing the art-school background and a stage during the former’s Manifesto tour? Is there any evidence that anyone thought them similar at the time? Do any listers see the comparisons? Just wondered. >> Only in that both occupy the broad field of "art rock".... taking a left-field approach but with killer tunes. Roxy were far more musoid than Wire could ever be....and Roxy very quickly blanded out, whereas Wire are still out there... First couple of Roxy abums and the early singles still sound fresh.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:49:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Amy Myrbo Subject: stealing (was: Old Elastica Quote) I dunno, having seen Negativland over the weekend has only confirmed my longstanding agreement with their slogan "Copyright Infringement is Your Best Entertainment Value." (Had the t-shirt for some years; bought a turntable slip-mat with the same, even though it's unlikely I'll be doing much with it.) They remixed themselves and all (except for "Nesbitt's Lime Soda Song," which was strictly straight). Had a nice Teletubbies t-shirt for sale too. (And what was that Teletubbies bit on the Simpsons last night? I just have a weakness for so-clever pop-cultural referencing, I guess.) To me, you have to go pretty damn far to get outside the realm of "Fair Use," or sampling as cultural criticism, or what-have-you. Of course, having no vested interests, I don't know dick, but as a consumer I'm all for it. The place just broke up when they did the Ethel Merman bit - "There is nothing like that special feeling / when you are stealing / when you are stealing / stealing / stealing . . . Let's go on with the stealing . . ." A ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ Amy Myrbo -+- http://www.visi.com/~cosa -+- amyrbo@umn.edu Limnological Research Center, Geology and Geophysics, University of Minnesota, 310 Pillsbury Dr SE, Mpls MN 55455 ^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:49:27 +0100 (BST) From: John Roberts Subject: RE: Originality/Creating a facsimile... > Folllowing the debate between John and Casper: IT wasn't orginally a debate between me and Casper. I just stuck my nose in because I'm suffering from withdrawal symptoms from somehow indavertently unsubscribing from the list recently!!! 8-) Still think Elastica are pants tho. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:09:25 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: my night with justine having given the matter some consideration i have decided that if the job becomes vacant i may have to apply for the job of keyboard player in elastica , from a 20 song set there must have been all of 3 numbers where she came into vague contact with her instrument (a bloke stands in the background triggerring all the bleeps and bloops). the rest of the time she performs a sort of bez-like role with a sort of solo aerobics demonstration. strangely compelling actually , which might be why i never got offerred the job..... but i digress. hey , they were really good ! it all works way better live than on the new album and they gave it a really good go. packed out a small venue (wulfrun hall) rather than rattling around in some big hanger , and looking as cool as ever. near the end of the set a roadie walked on with a mike stand , i thought "hello" , and who should weave on but mr mark e smith for spirited versions of "vaseline" and his 2 songs off the new album. god that made me laugh , he's looking such a mess. elastica all looked absolutely terrifed of what he was going to do but he behaved himself..... so loads of old wire riffs and mes too , it was fun. justine claimed the mes guest slot was a one-off , interesting to hear if that was true. no 12xu sadly. for all that's been said , i suspect most of you listers would have enjoyed this if you'd seen it , i was glad i went for sure.p ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #96 ******************************