From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #89 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, April 5 2000 Volume 03 : Number 089 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re[2]: wire for beginners/other bands [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: Re[3]: Other bands [so NON-Wire] ["tube disaster" ] More nostalgia... [Mark Short ] Re[2]: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Other bands - thanks [jasonmb@calweb.com] Re: Other bands - thanks [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Collins Death List [Casper Milquetoast ] Re: Ambulance placers [MarkBursa@aol.com] Band names [pshaw@cave.net] Re: Re[2]: Other bands [MarkBursa@aol.com] Tunnelvision [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 [Steve Finch ] Re: wire for beginners/other bands [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: Band names [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: Closer [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re[2]: wire for beginners/other bands [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: Collins Death List [Carl Archer ] Re: Band names [Aaron Mandel ] RE: Band names ["Sampson, James O." ] Re[2]: Band names [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] I've Got to Say Something Nice About Phil Collins ["Ciscon, Ray" ] re: Closer [NON-Wire] [Jack Steinmann ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 ["tube disaster" ] Re: passage/essential logic (was:More nostalgia...) ["tube disaster" ] Re: Re[2]: wire for beginners/other bands ["tube disaster" ] Re: Band names ["tube disaster" ] Re: passage/essential logic (was:More nostalgia...) [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 [MarkBursa@aol.com] reissues [Aaron Mandel ] Re: Band names [Casper Milquetoast ] RE: Band names ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: Band names [Casper Milquetoast ] OT:Class Action Suit Against Wallace & Gromit Haters ["Ciscon, Ray" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:26:56 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: wire for beginners/other bands (I can't stand Heart & Soul, either ... hell, I'd probably have been happier with the T'Pau hit of the same name a few years later.) >>>>> dan , i don't believe you. my personal fave is "decades" , how could you top that? p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:30:56 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[3]: Other bands [so NON-Wire] Just dug out my copy, & you're right. Damnation. Dan > >No. At least, not on the Enz LP I have. > > >Jack > > >tube disaster wrote: >>>the original Bouquet of Steel version of Ju Ju Money >>> >>Is that perhaps on the Enz collection (not that I can put my hands on mine >>at the moment)? I'm still cursing the day a few years ago when I actually >>held Bouquet of Steel in my hands at the used shop across the graveyard from >>my house, then neglected to make it mine. >> >>Dan > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:32:23 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: industry (was:song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) >>Somebody (who couldn't stand them) on an '80s newsgroup shared some info >>about their members a few months ago ... I'll have to see if I can dig that >>stuff up. I've got the s/t LP ... Whoops -- my bad. The LP is actually called Stranger to Stranger. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:38:18 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Closer [NON-Wire] And >wasn't there a bit of a controversy with the recent reissue of the first >Cheap Trick album, which put "Hot Love" first -- which actually is the way >I always played it. > Dunno, but if there was any controversy, I haven't a clue why. I'm holding a promo copy of that one right now, & Side A (beginning with Hot Love) & Side B are clearly identified as such on the sleeve & on on the label. Maybe the non-promo edition was more ambiguous ... I haven't owned one of those in probably 18 1/2 years. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 10:02:30 +0100 From: Mark Short Subject: More nostalgia... Is any of The Passage's product available on CD? I was too tight to buy it on vinyl when it was released. Somewhere I've got a tape of The Bastinado, which is pretty good. Also, listening to the NME's C81 tape in the car thismorning, and finally released what a good track is Essential Logic's Fanfare In The Garden. Does any Essential Logic material exist on CD? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:09:03 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 First band I ever saw was Richard Hell and the Void Oids (supporting The Clash). Can't get much better than that for a first band, or can you?????? Paul KW >>> my first gig was also the clash , so the actual first band on was (ahem) bongo danny and the enchanters. who never quite achieved the same level of worldwide success.p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:30:05 -0700 From: jasonmb@calweb.com Subject: Other bands - thanks I love this list! Thanks to everyone who responded to my message. I'm going to try out all those bands as soon as I can find their CDs. ObWire: Manscape, The Drill, and The First Letter are all OK in my book, especially Manscape. "Where's the Deputation" is fantastic, but why's it so short? - -- Jason Borchers jasonmb@calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:53:28 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: Other bands - thanks ObWire: Manscape, The Drill, and The First Letter are all OK in my book, especially Manscape. "Where's the Deputation" is fantastic, but why's it so short? >>>>> to add my bit on manscape , i think it really does have its moments. big problem for me is it just goes on too long without enough veriety. i like the opening 2 "poppier" tracks and i think the vinyl version really sufferred from losing them , i never saw "children of groceries" as much loss really. i'd have lost "morning bell" actually if i'd been the one doing the cutting. remixed , cut down by a couple of tracks (children/morning maybe) and promoted with a single (strange they actually managed their only 2nd coming uk tour to promote this album but neglected to release a single) and i reckon it might've been recieved really well. but we'll never know.p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 06:02:40 -0400 From: Casper Milquetoast Subject: Collins Death List Okay fine, who here actually likes Phil Collins at all? I just wanted to know because this has become the "Bring Hot Death to Collins" list pretty quick. I really don't mind it coming to that because personally I think that Phil Collins should have something very horrible done to him, but I was curious if there were any fans on the list. casper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:25:35 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Ambulance placers Dan, << Truly a great record ... unfortunately, I've only got it on a nearly 20-year-old normal-bias cassette. Did either side ever show up as bonus tracks on the recent CD reissues (which of course went out of print before I could ever find a halfway reasonably priced domestic source)? >> Yes, all the singles are on the CD of The Plateau Phase. The CD of Fin is expanded over the vvinyl too. Still only tells half the story though. The band was as prolific as any I've ever seen.There is at least two albums' more good material. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:30:30 GMT From: pshaw@cave.net Subject: Band names I believe there was a band in the 70's called "The Incredible Shrinking Dickies". Liz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:31:16 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Other bands Dan, >>Believe it was called Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones, or something very close to that ... the title comes from a Samuel R Delaney story from about 30 years ago, though I dunno if he copped it from somewhere else (like his then-wife Marilyn Hacker's poetry, perhaps).<< You are right. I just couldn't be arsed to go upstairs and check!!! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:34:26 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Tunnelvision Dan, << Yeah ... that's the problem. LTM's website list those as now deleted, I'm pretty sure. I've got the Tunnelvision disc is on order with a British vendor even as I type ... >> F***me!!! I was their manager! You want Tunelvision? I got Tunnelvision. There were only ever 8 songs recorded in the studio. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:34:31 +0100 From: Steve Finch Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 Sadly my first gig was Rush at Hammersmith Odeon, however a few weeks later I saw the light and went to see Slaughter and the dogs..! steve In message , paul.rabjohn@ssab.com writes >First band I ever saw was Richard Hell and the Void Oids (supporting The >Clash). Can't get much better than that for a first band, or can you?????? > >Paul KW >>>> my first gig was also the clash , so the actual first band on was (ahem) >bongo danny and the enchanters. who never quite achieved the same level of >worldwide success.p > - -- Steve Finch Direct line tel 01293 425007 Assistant General Manager Admin line tel 01293 425049 Touchdown WTS. 8-9 Magellan Terrace,Gatwick Rd,Crawley,W.Sussex,RH10 2PJ Website www.touchdown.co.uk Fax 01293 521144 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:46:12 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands Marlon, << Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against them. >> Quite. You don't get the full picture without both....and the singles of course. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:48:26 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: Band names that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose is bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant blink 182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. you really didn't need to you know.p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Band names Author: MIME:pshaw@cave.net at INTERNET Date: 05/04/2000 13:32 I believe there was a band in the 70's called "The Incredible Shrinking Dickies". Liz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:52:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Closer >>Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer than Atrocity Exhibition... I can still recall exactly standing in a shop in Berkeley the day it came out and hearing that slaughtered pig sound as the needle hit the record... those little hairs stood right up and never came down until the end of the album... it wasnt til years later that I learned what in the world that sound was... it was Bernards guitar put through a tinny little drum machine... talk about making the most of virtually nothing... the other sound I could never tag was Hannetts glass sound in Atmosphere, which I asked Bernard about, and he couldnt remember what it was either... its strange how uncanny so many of the Hannett noises were and how much power those imaginary rooms he created still have... << Atrocity Exhibition fun facts... 1: It pre-dates Unknown Pleasures (the only Closer song to do so) 2: Its original title was Atro City 3: Hooky plays the guitar, Barney plays the bass. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:59:04 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: wire for beginners/other bands go buy the box set. £30 very well spent and you get 2 whole discs of mostly unreleased stuff (1 studio , 1 live). gotta be worth it.p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands Author: MIME:MarkBursa@aol.com at INTERNET Date: 05/04/2000 13:48 Marlon, << Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against them. >> Quite. You don't get the full picture without both....and the singles of course. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 08:32:37 -0400 From: Carl Archer Subject: Re: Collins Death List I actually liked his work right up until that abortion known as "Invisible Touch" came out (unless "Sussudio" preceded that). He did some good things such as the re-recording of Howard Jones' "No One Is To Blame" and Frieda's (sp?) "There's Something Going On". For me, the last Genesis album shipped in 1983. After that, Phil discovered what I call "assembly-line songwriting". Or maybe he just stopped having any angst. Any idiot can program one sequenced loop and sing "Take Me Home". I don't mean to say that he is stupid. He just wants his music to be as accessible as possible (so he can move inventory), which just may be the polar opposite of the general population of this list. I think his ego problem is right up there with Sting's, although I've heard Sting admitting an ego problem. I'm listening to "made from TECHNETIUM" by Man or Astro-Man? right now. Maybe that's why Phil Collins is another world to me... Carl > From: Casper Milquetoast > Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 06:02:40 -0400 > To: "idealcopy@smoe.org" > Subject: Collins Death List > > Okay fine, who here actually likes Phil Collins at all? I just wanted to > know because this has become the "Bring Hot Death to Collins" list > pretty quick. I really don't mind it coming to that because personally I > think that Phil Collins should have something very horrible done to him, > but I was curious if there were any fans on the list. > > casper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Band names On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 paul.rabjohn@ssab.com wrote: > that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose > is bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these > brilliant blink 182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep > exporting over here. you really didn't need to you know.p what's that you say? you want more? sure thing... i've heard about six Dickies songs but they sounded great. can't blame them for what a bunch of frat boys influenced by them do 20 years later, can you? a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:40:56 -0400 From: "Sampson, James O." Subject: RE: Band names Correction - The band was simply "The Dickies" - However, their first(?) LP was titled "The Incredible Shrinking Dickies" - came out on yellow vinyl! - -----Original Message----- From: pshaw@cave.net [mailto:pshaw@cave.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 7:31 AM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Band names I believe there was a band in the 70's called "The Incredible Shrinking Dickies". Liz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 15:42:06 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: Band names On Wed, 5 Apr 2000 paul.rabjohn@ssab.com wrote: > that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose > is bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these > brilliant blink 182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep > exporting over here. you really didn't need to you know.p what's that you say? you want more? sure thing... i've heard about six Dickies songs but they sounded great. can't blame them for what a bunch of frat boys influenced by them do 20 years later, can you? a >>>>>> well i never exactly rated the dickies as the best thing around , but i wasn't "blaming" them for anything , i just figured they were maybe the first band of that type. although i would blame blink 182 for being crap.p (ps does blink 182 mean anything? just curious) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 09:03:05 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: I've Got to Say Something Nice About Phil Collins With all of the Phill Collins bashing going on around here, I've just got to say something nice about him. He's probably as good an actor as Sting. There. That was my 'nice' thing about Phil Collins. Actually, in my younger days - high school to be exact, I was quite the Genesis and Peter Gabriel fan. My interests in them faded just past the ABACAB album. In fact, now that I think of it, I was once thrown up on at a Genesis concert.... ah the memories... I must agree with an earlier post that Phill Collins was at one time an excellent drummer. Cheers, Ray Ciscon - -----Original Message----- From: Casper Milquetoast [mailto:milque@velocity.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:03 AM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Collins Death List Okay fine, who here actually likes Phil Collins at all? I just wanted to know because this has become the "Bring Hot Death to Collins" list pretty quick. I really don't mind it coming to that because personally I think that Phil Collins should have something very horrible done to him, but I was curious if there were any fans on the list. casper ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:45:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: lyrics to Art of Persistence So I'm trying to figure these lyrics out for an eventual web page update. Anybody want to take a stab at it? Andrew - --- Art Of Persistence (1st Draft) The shadow emerges Suspicion unto fact The trouble with doubles They've distastefully stacked? We are the ? structure The ? desire takes hold The result of the message Between once and now on The art of persistence Survival-bred skills Revenge for the final Test of the wills Persistence survival Test of the wills Prepare for the final Perfect rivals who kill Prepare for the final Perfect rivals who kill How could I disguise? Smoke signals have blown The immunity network Is both scattered and worn By the best of good fortune He's aware what's in store And someone lies Beyond the last door The immaterial breaks down Under the knife Security's blown For the next and his wife Over the whole operation know What the search can prevent In communication The last breath is spent - --- (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "They ask me if I feel remorse and I answer why of course, there's so much more I could've done if they'd let me" -NC ------------------------------ Date: 05 Apr 2000 11:28:29 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Closer [NON-Wire] But, but... Hot Love is SUPPOSED to come first. How could it not? Jack Miles Goosens wrote: the first >Cheap Trick album, which put "Hot Love" first -- which actually is the way >I always played it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:54:59 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 > >Comsat Angels and Gang of Four debut albums should definitely be in >everyone's record collection. As should the Mekons debut (but give their >other 100 or so albums a miss!) It's all a matter of opinion, of course, but ... WRONG!!! For me, the Mekons' peak period was roughly '85-'93, esp. the albums Fear & Whiskey, Edge of the World, Rock'n'Roll & I (heart) Mekons. The new one is quite good as well ... quite mournful. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:01:49 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: passage/essential logic (was:More nostalgia...) There is at least one Passage CD, Seedy: The Best of the Passage. CDNow gives this track listing -- 01. Xoyo 02. Carnal 03. Sharp Tongue 04. Devils And Angels 05. Horseplay 06. Man Of War 07. Armour 08. Fear 09. Good And Useful Life 10. Drugface 11. Love Is As 12. Angleland 13. Certain Way To Go 14. Time Will Tell 15. 2711 16. Wave 17. Taboos They don't happen to list the label, but I believe it's Anagram or one of its permutations. Only Passage record I've got is ... uh ... I don't want to go digging into the rack behind the 100 or so records sitting on the floor right now, but it has a red cover & I believe includes XOYO. Unfortunately, I know of no Essential Logic reissues. Only thing of theirs I've ever heard is Aerosol Burns on the Wanna Buy a Bridge comp, though I was lucky enough to find Lora Logic's LP & Wonderful Offer 12" used in local stores last year. Dan >Is any of The Passage's product available on CD? I was too tight to buy it on >vinyl when it was released. Somewhere I've got a tape of The Bastinado, which is >pretty good. > >Also, listening to the NME's C81 tape in the car thismorning, and finally >released what a good track is Essential Logic's Fanfare In The Garden. Does any >Essential Logic material exist on CD? ------------------------------ Date: 05 Apr 2000 12:14:52 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re[3]: wire for beginners/other bands The JD box set is excellent, omitting only a handful of essential items, like the Peel renditions of Sound of Music and Exercise One, and the much-bootlegged Amsterdam show, which is superior to any sanctioned live release. Also, the mix of (I think?) Atmosphere is off. Jack paul.rabjohn wrote: >go buy the box set. £30 very well spent and you get 2 whole >discs of mostly unreleased stuff (1 studio , 1 live). gotta be >worth it.p >______________________________ Reply Separator >Marlon, > ><< Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against >them. >> > >Quite. You don't get the full picture without both....and the >singles of course. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:14:43 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: chameleons reunion Sort of bad news ... Here's what I received in response to my query on the Big Takeover list about the Chameleons reunion gigs, for the listmember who was asking -- Dan >>Well, at first I have to say that there isn't a ticket left. All five gigs are completely sold out. I myself am still waiting for a website from the Chameleons themselves with info. At moment there still isn't one. So the best informed website I know of is http://www.indigo.ndirect.co.uk/chameleons/ This is the "home is where the heart is" site with info on the gigs. On this site you can find the following message from the management: IMPORTANT NEWS The following is a statement from the bands management; please, please take notice of what they say. As you know the shows have been sold out for some time and we're sorry to say this, but anyone without a ticket should not to travel to The Witchwood. There will be NO tickets available at the door and ticket touts will be removed from the area. With the best wish in the world, the band are unable to get anyone else in. This is because there is NO guest list, we did this to allow as many real fans as possible into the venue. We are hoping to confirm a web broadcast of at least one of the shows, very soon. The Chameleons are currently in the studio putting the finishing touches to their new album, which features acoustic versions of the classic songs plus one brand new track. Reg is currently working on the sleeve. The CD will be available at the Witchwood shows and also via mail-order. Any enquiries should be addressed to Paradiso2K@aol.com We are also working on a range of merchandise for the shows and also mail order.<< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:16:31 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[2]: wire for beginners/other bands >>(I can't stand Heart & Soul, either ... hell, I'd probably have been happier with the T'Pau hit of the same name a few years later.) >>>>> dan , i don't believe you. my personal fave is "decades" , how could you top that? p<< I think I named Decades as one of my top 3 LP-only JD songs, along with Disorder & Means to an End. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:22:12 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Band names >that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose is bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant blink 182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. you really didn't need to you know.p<< Actually, the Dickies basically sounded like the Ramones' spastic cousins on (more) amphetamines (sort of like the difference between NY's Suicide & LA's Screamers, come to think of it). Quite fun, & they're still together ... in fact, they came up on punk77 this morning, & guitarist Stan Lee had several posts. As for being "forerunners" of Blink 182, etc., I think you're gonna have to blame the Ramones for that, along with the Buzzcocks & possibly the Boys (not that most of these kids know that the Boys aren't just a recent Motown group). Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:45:28 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Band names > > >>that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose is >bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant blink >182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. you >really didn't need to you know.p<< > >Actually, the Dickies basically sounded like the Ramones' spastic cousins on >(more) amphetamines (sort of like the difference between NY's Suicide & LA's >Screamers, come to think of it). Quite fun, & they're still together ... in >fact, they came up on punk77 this morning, & guitarist Stan Lee had several >posts. > >As for being "forerunners" of Blink 182, etc., I think you're gonna have to >blame the Ramones for that, along with the Buzzcocks & possibly the Boys >(not that most of these kids know that the Boys aren't just a recent Motown >group). > >Dan > Now, I suppose the argument could be made that their cover of Paranoid on Incredible Shrinking Dickies back in '79 presaged the unfortunate development known as speed metal ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:13:11 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: passage/essential logic (was:More nostalgia...) Dan, << There is at least one Passage CD, Seedy: The Best of the Passage. CDNow gives this track listing -- 01. Xoyo 02. Carnal 03. Sharp Tongue 04. Devils And Angels 05. Horseplay 06. Man Of War 07. Armour 08. Fear 09. Good And Useful Life 10. Drugface 11. Love Is As 12. Angleland 13. Certain Way To Go 14. Time Will Tell 15. 2711 16. Wave 17. Taboos<< Pretty comprehensive comp. of the album stuff...misses out the early singles when Tony Friel (ex-Fall) was in the band.... Also misses Peel stuff (whhich is where I think Do the Bastinado came from - I'd have to check. >> They don't happen to list the label, but I believe it's Anagram or one of its permutations. Only Passage record I've got is ... uh ... I don't want to go digging into the rack behind the 100 or so records sitting on the floor right now, but it has a red cover & I believe includes XOYO. >> All the albums were in the same style - red, white and black covers. I think I have them all - I'll check. Haven't played them for years! XOYO covers the subject of genetics - similar territory to the Ideal Copy. Saw them live once - strange line-up - Dick Witts (main man) played kbds and sang, and there was a guitarist who also did some vocals and a drummer. But in earlier line-ups Witts played drums (he was a classically trained percussionist who played with the Halle Orchestra).... also a Manchester 'face' who turned up as a presenter on some of Tony Wilson's TV shows on Granada. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:19:05 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 Paul, << All this brings back memories of seeing Gang of Four / Mekons / Delta 5 (the Leeds 3), playing on the same bill every week. Seem to remember that the Mekons always did a cover of a Gang of Four song, and vice versa.<< I remember seeing the Go4 supported by Pere Ubu and Delta 5, which was a pretty good gig! >> I also remember seeing the Comsats headlining a gig with U2. Well that's the way I remember it - it is possible that U2 were the headline band. >> It was an equal-billed double-header tour, with alternating headlliners. Unfortunately both times I saw the tour the wrong band headlined..... Also saw the Comsats at the Lyceum, supported by the Sound and the Blue Orchids...ahhh the memories! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 14:22:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: reissues I had to check in the Wire bin yesterday at the record store, even though I already have those records. I was surprised -- pleasantly -- to find that they're just reprintings, not reissues. That is, they look just the same as they did before, no horrible matching cover art like those Go-Betweens discs that Beggars Banquet put out a few years ago. Even better, The Ideal Copy *is* the 16-track version with "Ahead (II)" on it, so I grabbed that. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:03:23 -0400 From: Casper Milquetoast Subject: Re: Band names > >>that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose is > >bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant blink > >182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. Calling the Dickies the forerunners of this new wave of pop-punk crap that's flooding the airwaves is one hell of a far fetch. If any bands are the forerunners i would say that the Clash and Operation Ivy, mainly due to the fact that they made the template from which all this new *poop* is created. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy both of those bands immensely but it pains me that they are responsible. *forces a small tear* But in any case, leave the Dickies alone! And it's not like you brits have done anything amazing lately ie: Spice Girls, Oasis, those Wallace and Grumet cartoons Casper (okay, fine I'll give you Talvin Singh, Tricky, and Massive Attack BUT THAT'S ALL, those damn cartoons are unforgivible) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:14:54 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: Band names Whoah! Let me get this straight... you DON'T like Wallace & Gromit? You are either the most cynical person on earth, or you've lost your mind. Wallace & Gromit are one of the few things left in this world that can be enjoyed by anybody of any age. Please don't tell me you're an anime fan though! If you truly don't like Wallace & Gromit I feel very, very sorry for you. Cheers, Ray Ciscon - -----Original Message----- From: Casper Milquetoast [mailto:milque@velocity.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:03 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Band names > >>that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose is > >bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant blink > >182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. Calling the Dickies the forerunners of this new wave of pop-punk crap that's flooding the airwaves is one hell of a far fetch. If any bands are the forerunners i would say that the Clash and Operation Ivy, mainly due to the fact that they made the template from which all this new *poop* is created. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy both of those bands immensely but it pains me that they are responsible. *forces a small tear* But in any case, leave the Dickies alone! And it's not like you brits have done anything amazing lately ie: Spice Girls, Oasis, those Wallace and Grumet cartoons Casper (okay, fine I'll give you Talvin Singh, Tricky, and Massive Attack BUT THAT'S ALL, those damn cartoons are unforgivible) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 18:14:58 -0400 From: Casper Milquetoast Subject: Re: Band names I was half joking and I do love the mindless action in anime. I do find them to be annoying and in all honesty i was just looking for something to make fun of the brits for. So sue me. casper "Ciscon, Ray" wrote: > > Whoah! > > Let me get this straight... you DON'T like Wallace & Gromit? > > You are either the most cynical person on earth, or you've lost your mind. > > Wallace & Gromit are one of the few things left in this world that can be > enjoyed by anybody of any age. > > Please don't tell me you're an anime fan though! > > If you truly don't like Wallace & Gromit I feel very, very sorry for you. > > Cheers, > > Ray Ciscon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Casper Milquetoast [mailto:milque@velocity.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:03 PM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Band names > > > >>that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose > is > > >bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant > blink > > >182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. > > Calling the Dickies the forerunners of this new wave of pop-punk crap > that's flooding the airwaves is one hell of a far fetch. If any bands > are the forerunners i would say that the Clash and Operation Ivy, mainly > due to the fact that they made the template from which all this new > *poop* is created. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy both of those bands > immensely but it pains me that they are responsible. *forces a small > tear* But in any case, leave the Dickies alone! And it's not like you > brits have done anything amazing lately ie: Spice Girls, Oasis, those > Wallace and Grumet cartoons > > Casper > > (okay, fine I'll give you Talvin Singh, Tricky, and Massive Attack BUT > THAT'S ALL, those damn cartoons are unforgivible) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:27:31 -0500 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: OT:Class Action Suit Against Wallace & Gromit Haters Mr. Milquetoast, You can expect to hear from a Mr. Jonas Q. Bloodsucker, Esq. of the law firm, Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe before the end of the week. At least you got the 'mindless' part of anime correct. With the exception of 'Akira' and 'Ghost in the Shell', most anime I've seen is exactly that, mindless shite. Cheers, Ray Ciscon - -----Original Message----- From: Casper Milquetoast [mailto:milque@velocity.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:15 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Band names I was half joking and I do love the mindless action in anime. I do find them to be annoying and in all honesty i was just looking for something to make fun of the brits for. So sue me. casper "Ciscon, Ray" wrote: > > Whoah! > > Let me get this straight... you DON'T like Wallace & Gromit? > > You are either the most cynical person on earth, or you've lost your mind. > > Wallace & Gromit are one of the few things left in this world that can be > enjoyed by anybody of any age. > > Please don't tell me you're an anime fan though! > > If you truly don't like Wallace & Gromit I feel very, very sorry for you. > > Cheers, > > Ray Ciscon > > -----Original Message----- > From: Casper Milquetoast [mailto:milque@velocity.net] > Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2000 5:03 PM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Band names > > > >>that was the album , the band were just "the dickies". which i suppose > is > > >bad enough. i guess they were the forerunners of all these brilliant > blink > > >182-type bands the americans are so kind as to keep exporting over here. > > Calling the Dickies the forerunners of this new wave of pop-punk crap > that's flooding the airwaves is one hell of a far fetch. If any bands > are the forerunners i would say that the Clash and Operation Ivy, mainly > due to the fact that they made the template from which all this new > *poop* is created. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy both of those bands > immensely but it pains me that they are responsible. *forces a small > tear* But in any case, leave the Dickies alone! And it's not like you > brits have done anything amazing lately ie: Spice Girls, Oasis, those > Wallace and Grumet cartoons > > Casper > > (okay, fine I'll give you Talvin Singh, Tricky, and Massive Attack BUT > THAT'S ALL, those damn cartoons are unforgivible) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:39:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Charles G Waldman Subject: Pent-up responses to many recent topics Here's a bunch of comments and replies to various topics that have come up on the list recently. I've been wanting to post for a while but having trouble finding time... 0) When responding, please don't quote entire postings! (Especially not this one, since it's kind of long). 1) Map. Ref. 41 Degrees North 93 Degrees West This is, as has been noted, a site in Iowa, "nowhere in particular", in the agricultural American Midwest. If you've ever flown over this region you'll know exactly what "the carving and the paring of the land, the quarter square, the graph divides" means, as the whole region is almost entirely large, rectangular farms, not "English countryside" kind of farming but large-scale agribusiness, laid out on an immense scale, looking from cruising altitude like a grid of tiles, with every inch of ground accounted for, with few trees or hills or cities. Centerville IA is not far from the specified point (since no degrees and minutes are given, the Map. Ref. covers a fairly large region, unless we are to interpret it as 41 0'0" 93 0' 0") (see footnote [1]), but as far as I can tell Centerville is not the center of the USA. Several cities claim to be the center of the USA but I haven't been able to find any claims for Centerville IA. Which brings up the question, which was discussed here about a week ago, as to how one actually does calculate the center of an irregularly shaped region. The center is just the average of all the coordinates of all the interior point, that is the integral of the vector (x,y) over the region, divided by the area. If you have a computer and a digital image of the region, this is simple to do by just summing pixel coordinates and dividing by the pixel-count. I don't really know how cartologists did these kinds of calculations before computers. Cutting out a region and balancing it on a straightedge won't work, I don't think. Because a line can bisect a region without passing through the center point. For the simplest example I can come up with, consider an equilateral triangle. If you draw the 3 perpendicular bisectors (lines from the corners to the midpoints of the opposite sides) these lines all meet in a single point, which is the centroid of the triangle. Any of the 3 perpendicular bisectors is also a bisector of the triangle, that is, an equal amount of the triangle's area lies on either side of the line. However if you take a line which is parallel to one of the edges of the triangle and passes through the centroid, this line does not bisect the area of the triangle - it divides the triangle into a trapezoid and a smaller equilateral triangle, and the trapezoid has greater area (unless my calculations are all screwed up!). However, there *is* a line which is parallel to an edge of the triangle and bisects the area (there has to be, see footnote [2]), it just doesn't go through the centroid (again, unless I committed a big error working this all out!). So I don't think that all the bisecting lines meet at a single point. If you take two lines which bisect an area, and look at where they meet, this point is not necessarily the centroid of that area. Maybe this is how 6 different towns can all claim to be the "Center of the USA", they found the center by balancing a cutout map of the USA on a knife-edge. Ok, enough math back to music, which brings us to: 3) Best intro album. I'm surprised nobody has stood up for 154! This was the album that got me hooked, way back in 1979. I really felt like I was listening to something ground-breaking. There is so much variety on this album, the tension between the Newman songs and the Lewis songs (and the handful of songs by BC Gilbert) makes this album still exciting for me 21 years later. If you listen to 154 from start to finish and don't find at least one song you like, I think it's fair to say you won't like any Wire album. For me, "Two People in a Room", "A Touching Display", "Single KO", "Blessed State" are some of my favorite Wire songs of all time. I got 154 when it came out, and worked my way backwards through Chars Missing and Pink Flag, which are of course also excellent, but for me at least it was 154 which made me first think that Wire was really something special, and hearing "Reuters" off Pink Flag for the first time sealed the deal. 4) Other bands. This has also been an interesting thread to watch. I was lucky enough to see Gang of Four live on about 5 occasions in the late 70's/early 80's and they were just an incredibly great live band, the amount of energy and passion at their shows was really memorable. I remember jumping around like crazy to "I Found That Essence Rare" and leaving the show just drenched with sweat. The band was also pretty approachable, I remember saying "Hi" and having conversations with them a few times after the shows. What happened? Once bass player David Allen left the band and was replaced by Sara Lee, it just wasn't the same. Then losing drummer Hugo Burnham (who was great live) was too much. In my opinion the first two albums, Entertainment and Solid Gold, are must-haves, and everything thereafter was just a big disappointment. Hmm, people have been talking about Joy Division. When I was a teenager and into my early 20's I was a big fan of Joy Division, but I have to say that to me, they haven't really stood the test of time like Wire has. Some of the old albums in my record collection still sound great to me and some of them just make me wonder "What the hell was I thinking?" (For instance, my embarrassing early 80's infatuation with Echo and the Bunnymen... at least I didn't emulate their haircuts!) I was driving home late last night and was fooling around with the car radio and I found a station I had never heard before - I think 88.7 FM (?) and they played about an hour of nonstop Joy Division, rarities, live recordings, etc. I started listening to it thinking "Oh wow, this should be interesting, a trip down memory lane" and while I could still remember all the lyrics to all the songs, I just failed to *connect* to it in any way, it all just sounded kind of self-absorbed, lifeless, dreary, melodramatic, and rather unappealing. Wire, on the other hand, still works for me. Some albums, like Colin Newman's A-Z, I don't play for years, then I take them off the shelf and give them a spin, and they sound fresh as ever. As far as other bands people like, are there any Guided by Voices fans here on the list? (other than myself, I mean). Lead singer/songwriter Robert Pollard is an avowed Wire fan[3], and actually listed "154" as #2 on his list of top-10 favorite albums of all time (right between the Beatles' "White Album" and the Who's "Who's Next")[4] And, especially on their earlier records, there are a few tracks which could be taken to be Wire tributes, if not outright imitations - listen for example to "A Portrait Destroyed By Fire" from 1987's "Devil Between My Toes" album to hear GbV at their most blatantly Wire-ish. 5) The Metro show I am excited to be the holder of tickets #55 and #56 for the Metro show! My wife, who is not exactly a huge Wire fan, has agreed to come with me, so I'm doubly happy. I'm hoping to be able to make it to the pre-show get-together, I'd love to meet some of the other Chicago-area Wire fans! Looking forward to May 10, -C ====================================================================== Footnotes: [1] Interestingly, I decided to do a little research, so I went to the Mapquest site and searched through the options until I found "latitude/longitude search", put in the numbers 41 and 93, was told that I must put a value in every field. I filled in 0's for the minutes and seconds, clicked where so instructed, and got back a map that was a perfectly empty light-brown square with a red star right in the middle of it![1a] Perfect, I thought, a spot where there is just *nothing*, no roads, no towns, absolutely no markers of any geographical details. On the right-hand side of the page was a list of nearby points of interest, and under the heading "Nearby Airports" the closest airport listed was Des Moines International Airport. I figured the map was just too zoomed-in and fell between towns, so I zoomed out one time, from 10KM to 40KM resolution, and saw the towns Mingshoshan, Hongliuyuan, Xingxingxia. Odd names, I thought to myself! Mingshoshan! Well, I've heard of Kenosha and Sheboygan so maybe Mingshoshan is some Indian name. But those other two are just *strange*! I somehow can't believe there's a Xingxingxia, Iowa, and I'm already starting to think about a road-trip, when I zoom out one more time and realize that I'm looking at a map of a region along the China/Mongolia border! Longitude increases in the Eastern direction, so '93 degrees West' must be entered as '-93'. [1b]. But still "Nearby Airports" suggested that if I ever wanted to see Xingxingxia China, I should book a flight to Des Moines. When I went back and did the search correctly, using -93, I got the expected map of Centerville IA and environs. However, the Nearest Airport doesn't list anything. Software bugs, you gotta love 'em. People are just in such a hurry to put stuff on the Web, it seems like little details like testing are forgotten. [1a] (which you maybe can see for yourself at the preposterously long URL: http://sitemap.mapquest.com/mqmapgend?MQMapGenRequest=FDR2dmwjDE%3bf72d%26FD T7w%7cqu72u6%24wl672u%40%24%3a%26%40%24%3aq%40r5u%40agu%40%19JSM%3aHOHQJ%3bw 22u67%3aha72u6%24%3a%26%40%24%3a%26%40a%3a ) [1b] of course the search page didn't give you a way to enter "N/S" or "E/W" and didn't explain about East=positive, West=negative. (No philosophy intended!) [2] I was amused to see the "Ham Sandwich" theorem mentioned here last week, it brought back lots of memories of the topology classes I took in college. However I don't think that you need the full power of this theorem to show the existence of lines bisecting a plane area. It follows from a much simpler continuity argument. I think in fact you can say, under mild restricions on the shape, that given a finite bounded region in the plane, there is, parallel to any given line, a line which bisects the region. Consider a family of lines parallel to a given line, and define a function on this set which is just "fraction of area of region to the left (or above) the line". At some point, the whole shape is on one side of your line. As you move the line (keeping it parallel to the reference line), the fraction goes from 0 to 1. Since this function is continuous [2a] at some point it takes on the value 1/2. [2a] Certainly this is true for a reasonably "tame" shape, assuming some degree of continuity/smoothness of the boundary. You could possibly construct "wild" boundaries, some kind of Peano curve or jaggedy fractal, where the function defined above is not continuous. I'm not sure. These cases would be mathematically "pathological" and would not correspond to shapes of land-masses or any other "real-world" shapes. [3] I wonder if he's going to come out to any of the shows? Of all the stops on the Wire tour, Chicago is closest to Dayton OH. [4] http://www.gbv.com/alltimetop10.html ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #89 ******************************