From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #87 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, April 5 2000 Volume 03 : Number 087 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: wire for beginners/other bands ["tube disaster" ] Re: Re[2]: re Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) ["tube disaster" ] Re: Ambulance placers ["tube disaster" ] Re: Closer [non-Wire] [Miles Goosens ] Re: Ambulance placers [ajwells@ix.netcom.com] Re: re song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) ["tube disaster" ] Re: Closer [non-Wire] [ajwells@ix.netcom.com] Re: industry (was:song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) ["tube disaster" <] Re: DeRogatis, Lester Bangs, and Wire [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: re song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) ["tube disaster" ] Re: re Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) ["tube disaster" ] re: Closer [NON-Wire] [Jack Steinmann ] Re: Ambulance placers ["tube disaster" ] Re: Closer [NON-Wire] ["tube disaster" ] re: Re[2]: Other bands [NON-Wire] [Jack Steinmann ] Re: Re[2]: Other bands [NON-Wire] ["tube disaster" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 19:01:40 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition (it's too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding *opening* track. I mean, lyrically that's appropriate -- "this is the way, step inside" & all that -- but it definitely taints the album as a whole for me. (I can't stand Heart & Soul, either ... hell, I'd probably have been happier with the T'Pau hit of the same name a few years later.) In contrast, Unknown Pleasure starts out with what I regard as one of the finest opening tracks of all time, Disorder, possibly my favorite non-single JD song ever (though Closer's A Means to an End & The Eternal certainly come close). I definitely agree on Atmosphere & Dead Souls -- what an astonishing single. Dan >of "unknown pleasures,closer,still" >it's "closer" for me everytime.having said that the best of joy division >are the singles "transmission","dead souls"and "atmosphere". >but with Collins solo stuff it has to be "it seems". >yours >a.w > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:07:27 -0500 From: george.m.hook@ac.com Subject: DeRogatis, Lester Bangs, and Wire I just read a review on the online magazine Salon of a book by Jim DeRogatis, who is a local rock critic here in Chicago. It is a biography of Lester Bangs (Let It Blurt, The Life and Times of Lester Bangs, America's Greatest Rock Critic). The review was written by Ira Robbins, who is the editor of The Trouser Press Guide to '90s Rock. As well as being a good writer for a commercial newspaper (the Chicago Sun-Times), DeRogatis interests me because I believe he is a devoted Wire fan, who I suspect was a founding member of the Ex-Lion Tamers (if someone out there in wire cyberspace can confirm this for me, I would appreciate it)-- the group who toured with Wire in the 1980s and who performed the entire Pink Flag album. Anyway, DeRogatis wrote a notorious review of Wire's work for The Trouser Press Guide, completely dismissing most everything after The Ideal Copy and lamenting how Wire never did anything of note after the landmark first three albums. Given DeRogatis' history, I am looking forward to hearing what he has to say about the May 10th appearance here in Chicago by his obvious influences. Lester Bangs was a good writer, by the way. And here is a relevant quote from the review: "The historical tragedy, as DeRogatis notes, is how Bangs and his kind were marginalized and then ostracized by the explosion of music journalism they engendered. As Bangs discovered at the increasingly "professional" Rolling Stone, freewheeling first-person hysteria was fine until people started to take rock criticism seriously as a business. Once mainstream media got into the act, the self-invented extremists got pushed off the stage. "What was once garret zealotry -- practiced by idealists driven to spew, destroy and proselytize -- is now well-paid product-shilling, adult-dream celebrity worship written by well-funded content providers, pushed by powerful flacks and neutered by timid editors. Even the largest and most established music magazines lack the spine to disagree with their readers. So Bangs died in vain. At least he didn't live to be disgraced by it. " ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 20:42:43 -0700 From: "marlon" Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands > > > What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent > album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition (it's > too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding *opening* > track. Closer is brilliant, so is Unknown Pleasures. considering the 2 album span of this band, conversations some 20 plus years later is an amazing thing in itself. i work with people in their 20s who love Joy Division. but this which is better? Ginger or Mary Ann stuff is truly lost on me. sorry. Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against them. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:27:10 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[2]: re Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) >Paul, > >Actually I always thought My Bloody Valentine was an extremely crap name. Put >me off the band for ages.... > >Mark > Turns out it's from a slasher film of sorts from, I guess, the early-to-mid-'80s ... I must've been aware of the movie before I was the band, since the former showed up on TV here sometime before I ever stumbled across mention of the latter. And there's always We Are Going to Eat You, whose name came from a zombie flick, I believe. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:51:15 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands >> >> What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent >> album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition >(it's >> too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding >*opening* >> track. > >Closer is brilliant, so is Unknown Pleasures. considering the 2 album span >of this band, conversations some 20 plus years later is an amazing thing in >itself. i work with people in their 20s who love Joy Division. but this >which is better? Ginger or Mary Ann stuff is truly lost on me. sorry. >Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against >them. > Well, Mary Ann, *obviously*. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:08:32 -0400 From: ajwells@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Closer marlon wrote: > > > > > > > What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent > > album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition > (it's > > too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding > *opening* > > track. Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer than Atrocity Exhibition... I can still recall exactly standing in a shop in Berkeley the day it came out and hearing that slaughtered pig sound as the needle hit the record... those little hairs stood right up and never came down until the end of the album... it wasnt til years later that I learned what in the world that sound was... it was Bernards guitar put through a tinny little drum machine... talk about making the most of virtually nothing... the other sound I could never tag was Hannetts glass sound in Atmosphere, which I asked Bernard about, and he couldnt remember what it was either... its strange how uncanny so many of the Hannett noises were and how much power those imaginary rooms he created still have... All of the JD output is almost beyond criticism at this point... you can argue it any way you like, but these records will be around for a LONG time... without question they have the staying power of the Velvets and Stooges records that Ian was hoping for... "this is the way..." A.j - -- ICQ# 6174686 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:10:57 -0400 From: ajwells@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands > Ginger or Mary Ann stuff is truly lost on me. sorry. > >Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against > >them. > > > > Well, Mary Ann, *obviously*. > > Dan Come on... Gingers' femme fatale act always worked wonders for me... even if she was really a man... wait a minute, maybe thats what I liked... A.j - -- ICQ# 6174686 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:19:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands On Tue, 4 Apr 2000 ajwells@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Ginger or Mary Ann stuff is truly lost on me. sorry. > > >Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against > > >them. > > > > > > > Well, Mary Ann, *obviously*. > > > > Dan > > Come on... Gingers' femme fatale act always worked wonders for me... > even if she was really a man... wait a minute, maybe thats what I > liked... I have to say, at a young age, my sexual awakening was seeing Blondie on the Muppet Show. I've loved Blondie ever since. And she's *real*, man! - -Joshua ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:20:41 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: wire for beginners/other bands *That's* what the Map Ref coordinates are actually supposed to be ... Gilligan's Island. The Professor obviously would've been into the band. Dan >> Ginger or Mary Ann stuff is truly lost on me. sorry. >> >Unknown Pleasures defined the walls, Closer was throwing yourself against >> >them. >> > >> >> Well, Mary Ann, *obviously*. >> >> Dan > >Come on... Gingers' femme fatale act always worked wonders for me... >even if she was really a man... wait a minute, maybe thats what I >liked... > >A.j >-- > >ICQ# 6174686 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 23:32:24 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: DeRogatis, Lester Bangs, and Wire At 10:07 PM 04/04/2000 -0500, george.m.hook@ac.com wrote: >Anyway, DeRogatis wrote a notorious review of Wire's work for The Trouser Press >Guide, completely dismissing most everything after The Ideal Copy and lamenting >how Wire never did anything of note after the landmark first three albums. I like and respect DeRogatis too, but Jim Green's assessment of Wire in the earlier Trouser Press guides was much more spot-on IMO. Green's piece is available somewhere on http://www.trouserpress.com for your perusal. I would send the precise url, but the Trouser Press server appears to be down at the moment. later, listowner Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:34:22 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Closer As a point of clarification, let me note that IIIIIIIII wrote the "what fatally flaws Closer" passage, not marlon, who in actuality was responding to it. Not sure why Atrocity & Heart and Soul have never done a thing for me, but they've had 19-odd years to wear me down, & it hasn't happened yet. (Whereas, as I've noted before, it took 2nd-generation Wire less than a decade to grow on me. Pink Flag, in contrast, took about 7 minutes, or however far Ex-Lion Tamer is into side 1. Unknown Pleasures required little more than the opening of She's Lost Control, if memory serves.) Dan, who has a hard time shaking his impression of Atrocity as the (no-)funhouse mirror-image of the old r'n'b hit Sideshow, by Blue Magic ... >marlon wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent >> > album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition >> (it's >> > too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding >> *opening* >> > track. > >Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer >than Atrocity Exhibition... I can still recall exactly standing in a >shop in Berkeley the day it came out and hearing that slaughtered pig >sound as the needle hit the record... those little hairs stood right up >and never came down until the end of the album... it wasnt til years >later that I learned what in the world that sound was... it was Bernards >guitar put through a tinny little drum machine... talk about making the >most of virtually nothing... the other sound I could never tag was >Hannetts glass sound in Atmosphere, which I asked Bernard about, and he >couldnt remember what it was either... its strange how uncanny so many >of the Hannett noises were and how much power those imaginary rooms he >created still have... > >All of the JD output is almost beyond criticism at this point... you can >argue it any way you like, but these records will be around for a LONG >time... without question they have the staying power of the Velvets and >Stooges records that Ian was hoping for... > >"this is the way..." > >A.j > >-- > >ICQ# 6174686 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:42:03 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Ambulance placers >Crispy Ambulance and Half Man Half Biscuit mentioned in the same email. This >I cannot ignore. >A lyric from the song 'Running Order Squabble Fest' by HMHB - "You're going >on after Crispy Ambulance." > >Crispy Ambulance "Deaf" 10" is never far from my turntable. Truly a great record ... unfortunately, I've only got it on a nearly 20-year-old normal-bias cassette. Did either side ever show up as bonus tracks on the recent CD reissues (which of course went out of print before I could ever find a halfway reasonably priced domestic source)? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 23:51:36 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Closer [non-Wire] At 09:08 PM 04/04/2000 -0400, ajwells@ix.netcom.com wrote: >marlon wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent >> > album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition >> (it's >> > too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding >> *opening* >> > track. > >Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer >than Atrocity Exhibition... O.K., I have to jump in here and not only second any endorsements of CLOSER as just about perfect, but to point out that the original vinyl had *no* indication of which side came first. The inner sleeve had the song titles, and it was up to you to work out whether the four-song side or the five-song side was first. Imagine my surprise when the CD came out and had the sides reversed from the way I had been playing them for years! My reasoning for the side order I chose: 1) "Heart and Soul" introduces the central theme of the album incredibly well ("heart and soul / one will burn"). O.K., "Atrocity Exhibition" could also serve in that capacity too. But the most compelling argument for it being side two track one was... 2) The album *must* end with "A Means To an End." Perfect closing track. "Decades" just doesn't cut it as an album-ender. In fact, the unresolved tone of "Decades" IMO builds tension for "Atrocity Exhibtion," making the latter even more harrowing as a side two opener. Here's to the ambiguities of vinyl, if not to the scratches and pops and side-ending compression. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:53:47 -0400 From: ajwells@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Ambulance placers tube disaster wrote: > > >Crispy Ambulance and Half Man Half Biscuit mentioned in the same email. > This > >I cannot ignore. > >A lyric from the song 'Running Order Squabble Fest' by HMHB - "You're going > >on after Crispy Ambulance." > > > >Crispy Ambulance "Deaf" 10" is never far from my turntable. > > Truly a great record ... unfortunately, I've only got it on a nearly > 20-year-old normal-bias cassette. Did either side ever show up as bonus > tracks on the recent CD reissues (which of course went out of print before I > could ever find a halfway reasonably priced domestic source)? > > Dan I think they have been re-reissued... I saw several Crispy Ambulance cds and several Section 25 cds during my last trip to the shop, all reasonably priced (16.99US)... I picked up the Bardo reissue and it sounds pretty damn good after all this time... more than one can say for much of the Section 25 stuff, which is still thin and marred by the bad flirting they had with 80s technology... But check your shops, they should have more of these reissues Aj - -- ICQ# 6174686 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:52:59 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: re song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) >Best/bizarre song title ever? 'I saw Batman at the launderette' by the >Shapes, who hailed from Leamington Spa circa 1980 I think. Always been fond of Splodge's I've Got Lots of Famous People Living under the Floorboard of My Humble Abode, myself. And as has probably been noted, Half Man Half Biscuit were geniuses at coming up with great song titles. Hmmm ... will have to dig out my copy of the Shapes CD on Overground (which label regrettably appears to have bitten the dust, I've been told) to see if it has Batman at the Launderette. >Talking about the older bands, what about the Mekons, Dangerous Girls, Odd ... Dangerous Girls came up a few days ago on the Buzzcocks list, for some reason, prompting me to note that, after buying their final 2 7"s (that I know of, at least -- Man in a Glass & Step Out) via eBay a couple of months ago, my collection of their stuff appears to be nearing completion. All I seem to lack is their comp cuts on Bouncing in the Red & Brum Beat Live at the Barrel Organ ... unless the LP projected in the International Discography of the New Wave as coming out in '82 as HUMAN-2 ever actually appeared, something I've never been able to confirm. >Second layer, the Passions (I'm in a love with a german film star etc), >they had their merits too. > >One band I've being trying to get info on is a North American band >called 'Industry' who did poppy rock early 1980's..anyone from the >states know what happened to them? I've also tried searching Amazon.com >and .co.uk but nothing for sale... Somebody (who couldn't stand them) on an '80s newsgroup shared some info about their members a few months ago ... I'll have to see if I can dig that stuff up. I've got the s/t LP ... State of the Nation must've been a semi-hit over here, as I remember hearing it on the radio in Arizona circa '83. Great New Wave track. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:57:45 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Ambulance placers >tube disaster wrote: >> >> >Crispy Ambulance and Half Man Half Biscuit mentioned in the same email. >> This >> >I cannot ignore. >> >A lyric from the song 'Running Order Squabble Fest' by HMHB - "You're going >> >on after Crispy Ambulance." >> > >> >Crispy Ambulance "Deaf" 10" is never far from my turntable. >> >> Truly a great record ... unfortunately, I've only got it on a nearly >> 20-year-old normal-bias cassette. Did either side ever show up as bonus >> tracks on the recent CD reissues (which of course went out of print before I >> could ever find a halfway reasonably priced domestic source)? >> >> Dan > >I think they have been re-reissued... I saw several Crispy Ambulance cds >and several Section 25 cds during my last trip to the shop, all >reasonably priced (16.99US)... I picked up the Bardo reissue and it >sounds pretty damn good after all this time... more than one can say for >much of the Section 25 stuff, which is still thin and marred by the bad >flirting they had with 80s technology... > >But check your shops, they should have more of these reissues > >Aj Don't I wish ... they seem to be unavailable from the UK sellers, even. Dan, whose Crispy Ambulance stuff is all on tape except for the Four Minutes from the Frontline 7". Really shouldn't have passed up Plateau Phase on vinyl for $10 at that record fair a couple of years ago, come to think of it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 22:02:40 -0400 From: ajwells@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Closer [non-Wire] Miles Goosens wrote: > > At 09:08 PM 04/04/2000 -0400, ajwells@ix.netcom.com wrote: > >marlon wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > What fatally flaws Closer for me (it is, of course, still an excellent > >> > album) is the fact that I not only don't care for Atrocity Exhibition > >> (it's > >> > too long by probably 2 minutes, for one thing), it's the bleeding > >> *opening* > >> > track. > > > >Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer > >than Atrocity Exhibition... > > O.K., I have to jump in here and not only second any endorsements of CLOSER > as just about perfect, but to point out that the original vinyl had *no* > indication of which side came first. The inner sleeve had the song titles, > and it was up to you to work out whether the four-song side or the > five-song side was first. Imagine my surprise when the CD came out and had > the sides reversed from the way I had been playing them for years! > > My reasoning for the side order I chose: > > 1) "Heart and Soul" introduces the central theme of the album incredibly > well ("heart and soul / one will burn"). O.K., "Atrocity Exhibition" could > also serve in that capacity too. But the most compelling argument for it > being side two track one was... > > 2) The album *must* end with "A Means To an End." Perfect closing > track. "Decades" just doesn't cut it as an album-ender. In fact, the > unresolved tone of "Decades" IMO builds tension for "Atrocity Exhibtion," > making the latter even more harrowing as a side two opener. > > Here's to the ambiguities of vinyl, if not to the scratches and pops and > side-ending compression. > > later, > > Miles Wow thats a new one on me... I guess I was used to reading the chicken scratches in the run out grooves on the factory stuff for the A and B sides, or maybe I had read the NME piece that came out before the record was released going through the running order... but didnt the Saville Deutche Grammophon style label have an A and B side designation hidden there somewhere? maybe not, its been awhile... Aj - -- ICQ# 6174686 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:17:25 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: industry (was:song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) >>One band I've being trying to get info on is a North American band >>called 'Industry' who did poppy rock early 1980's..anyone from the >>states know what happened to them? I've also tried searching Amazon.com >>and .co.uk but nothing for sale... > >Somebody (who couldn't stand them) on an '80s newsgroup shared some info >about their members a few months ago ... I'll have to see if I can dig that >stuff up. I've got the s/t LP ... State of the Nation must've been a >semi-hit over here, as I remember hearing it on the radio in Arizona circa >'83. Great New Wave track. > OK, here's what was posted on that ng last May (by, interestingly enough, a guy calling himself daleki, speaking of old keyboard-based bands) in response to a query about the lyrics of State of the Nation -- >>I actually know these guys, well actually 2 of them. I see Brian, the guitarist and song writer of this song all the time . I will ask him for the exact lyrics . Jon Carin the lead singer was in Pink Floyd for atleast 10 years, mostly touring and playing keyboards. Rudy the guitarist plays every Saturday night at a local Spanish Rest. They were a local Long Island band here in NY. They are really nice guys. Brian is in another band called Madden Rae and runs his own recording studio. I hope this helps.<< Apparently, they had at least one EP in addition to the LP, with at least some song duplication, but I know nothing whatsoever about it. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:26:16 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: DeRogatis, Lester Bangs, and Wire >I like and respect DeRogatis too, but Jim Green's assessment of Wire in >the earlier Trouser Press guides was much more spot-on IMO. Hear - hear! I agree whole-heartedly. That review was one of the reasons I started listening to Wire's solo albums - I hadn't heard anything about them up until that point. I still remember his review of Colin Newman's A-Z: "It sounds like you've been drugged, thrown in a room with an inquisitor who shouts senseless questions at you" (The above is from memory) All I knew is that an album like that - I *had* to own! (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:24:48 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: re song titles, dangerous girls, industry (was:Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) >On Tue, 4 Apr 2000, tube disaster wrote: > >> Always been fond of Splodge's I've Got Lots of Famous People Living under >> the Floorboard of My Humble Abode, myself. And as has probably been noted, >> Half Man Half Biscuit were geniuses at coming up with great song titles. > >I believe it's Slint who have song titles like _Look At That Car! It's >Full of Balloons!_ and _Bill's Mom Likes to Fuck_ and _Bears See Things >Pretty Much the Way They Are_. > >Not funny songs, but the titles make me pee with the laughing. > >-Joshua Happy Flowers were sometimes a chore to listen to, but titles like There's a Soft Spot on the Baby's Head & I Saw My Picture on a Milk Carton have to be counted as genuine day-brighteners. And what record-collecting obsessive could ever pass up the Freshies' I Can't Get Bouncing Babies by the Teardrop Explodes? Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:30:34 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: D & E; Manscape >Recently, some members (including myself) of a Sonic Youth list were >praising their recent double CD of avant garde covers, Goodbye Twentieth >Century. Someone chimed into say that no one could REALLY like that >noise, we all know we'd rather be listening to Dirty (one of their most >commercial albums), and that we weren't "impressing" anybody. I hate it >when that happens. Actually, IIIIIIIII'd rather be listening to Sister. The fact that the only Yo La Tengo album I've really listened to, Electr-o-Pura, reminds me of that one so much is why I agreed to accompany a friend on a 5-hour road trip to Nashville to see YLT a week ago. The trip was a nightmare, the show was pretty good (a 15-or-so-person version of Borstal Breakout as an encore didn't hurt). Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:35:08 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: re Band names(Crocheted Doughnut Ring) >Steve, > ><< Talking about the older bands, what about the Mekons, Dangerous Girls, > Second layer, the Passions (I'm in a love with a german film star etc), > they had their merits too. >> > >Wasn't Second Layer a side project of Adrian Borland??? > >Mark Correct. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:36:32 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Other bands >Paul, > ><< if you like the first album , you really should get the peel sessions cd. >the versions of "naturals" and "essence" in particular are even better than >the emi cuts.p > >> > >Forgot about those....yes, they are brilliant, and thoroughly recommended. >Ditto to Comsats Peel sessions (which is called something like 'Time >described as a helix...'), many of which are better than the recoded versions Believe it was called Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones, or something very close to that ... the title comes from a Samuel R Delaney story from about 30 years ago, though I dunno if he copped it from somewhere else (like his then-wife Marilyn Hacker's poetry, perhaps). ------------------------------ Date: 05 Apr 2000 01:00:29 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Closer [NON-Wire] Dear me. Joy Division, the Comsats, Crispy Ambulance, Section 25, Buzzcocks... it's Old Home Week around here. A Certain Ratio, anyone? In any event, the U.S. pressing of Closer had 'A' and 'B' etched into the runoff grooves, there was no question that Atrocity Exhibition opened the album. And the Spanish pressing has 'A' and 'B' printed right on the labels. If memory serves, the compact cassette (Italian?) was similarly unambiguous. Whatever the external cues, I never had any question that the 'angry' side of Closer should precede the 'resigned' side of the album. You don't follow up Decades with Atrocity Exhibition, you follow it up with silence. Now... Elvis Costello's Get Happy!!! -- that's a different story. Jack p.s. Didn't 154 and Unknown Pleasures come out around the same time? I Should Have Known Better and A Touching Display seemed to have a lot in common with, say, Day of the Lords and New Dawn Fades... many people wrote wrote: >> >Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer >> >than Atrocity Exhibition... >> >> O.K., I have to jump in here and not only second any endorsements of CLOSER >> as just about perfect, but to point out that the original vinyl had *no* >> indication of which side came first. The inner sleeve had the song titles, >> and it was up to you to work out whether the four-song side or the >> five-song side was first. Imagine my surprise when the CD came out and had >> the sides reversed from the way I had been playing them for years! >> >> My reasoning for the side order I chose: >> >> 1) "Heart and Soul" introduces the central theme of the album incredibly >> well ("heart and soul / one will burn"). O.K., "Atrocity Exhibition" could >> also serve in that capacity too. But the most compelling argument for it >> being side two track one was... >> >> 2) The album *must* end with "A Means To an End." Perfect closing >> track. "Decades" just doesn't cut it as an album-ender. In fact, the >> unresolved tone of "Decades" IMO builds tension for "Atrocity Exhibtion," >> making the latter even more harrowing as a side two opener. >> >> Here's to the ambiguities of vinyl, if not to the scratches and pops and >> side-ending compression. >> >> later, >> >> Miles > >Wow thats a new one on me... I guess I was used to reading the chicken >scratches in the run out grooves on the factory stuff for the A and B >sides, or maybe I had read the NME piece that came out before the record >was released going through the running order... but didnt the Saville >Deutche Grammophon style label have an A and B side designation hidden >there somewhere? maybe not, its been awhile... > >Aj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:59:18 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Ambulance placers >>Don't I wish ... they seem to be unavailable from the UK sellers, even. >> >>Dan, whose Crispy Ambulance stuff is all on tape except for the Four Minutes >>from the Frontline 7". Really shouldn't have passed up Plateau Phase on >>vinyl for $10 at that record fair a couple of years ago, come to think of >>it. > >You should contact James Nice of LTM Records: jnice@ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk > >LTM have issued The Plateau Phase, Fin (a live compilation), and are about >to release a recording of last year's Crispy Ambulance reunion concert. > >They have also done CD versions of most of the Section 25 catalogue, and >even have a superb full length CD by Tunnelvision of "Watching the >Hydroplanes" fame. > >All LTM releases have full sleevenotes, lots of extra tracks etc - strongly >recommended. Yeah ... that's the problem. LTM's website list those as now deleted, I'm pretty sure. I've got the Tunnelvision disc is on order with a British vendor even as I type ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:05:43 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Closer [NON-Wire] >Dear me. Joy Division, the Comsats, Crispy Ambulance, Section 25, Buzzcocks... it's Old Home Week around here. A Certain Ratio, anyone? > >In any event, the U.S. pressing of Closer had 'A' and 'B' etched into the runoff grooves, there was no question that Atrocity Exhibition opened the album. And the Spanish pressing has 'A' and 'B' printed right on the labels. If memory serves, the compact cassette (Italian?) was similarly unambiguous. The British pressing has A1 & B-1 etched into the grooves, which is what I went by lo these many years ago. I have to say that I, too, am surprised that anyone ever had any question as to which side was actually the start of the record, given those circumstances. AFAIK, my copy would be "the original vinyl," as I bought it in 1/81, about 3 months after getting Unknown Pleasures. Dan > >Whatever the external cues, I never had any question that the 'angry' side of Closer should precede the 'resigned' side of the album. You don't follow up Decades with Atrocity Exhibition, you follow it up with silence. > >Now... Elvis Costello's Get Happy!!! -- that's a different story. > > >Jack > > >p.s. Didn't 154 and Unknown Pleasures come out around the same time? I Should Have Known Better and A Touching Display seemed to have a lot in common with, say, Day of the Lords and New Dawn Fades... > > >many people wrote wrote: >>> >Whew... I cant imagine a more harrowing way to enter the world of Closer >>> >than Atrocity Exhibition... >>> >>> O.K., I have to jump in here and not only second any endorsements of CLOSER >>> as just about perfect, but to point out that the original vinyl had *no* >>> indication of which side came first. The inner sleeve had the song titles, >>> and it was up to you to work out whether the four-song side or the >>> five-song side was first. Imagine my surprise when the CD came out and had >>> the sides reversed from the way I had been playing them for years! >>> >>> My reasoning for the side order I chose: >>> >>> 1) "Heart and Soul" introduces the central theme of the album incredibly >>> well ("heart and soul / one will burn"). O.K., "Atrocity Exhibition" could >>> also serve in that capacity too. But the most compelling argument for it >>> being side two track one was... >>> >>> 2) The album *must* end with "A Means To an End." Perfect closing >>> track. "Decades" just doesn't cut it as an album-ender. In fact, the >>> unresolved tone of "Decades" IMO builds tension for "Atrocity Exhibtion," >>> making the latter even more harrowing as a side two opener. >>> >>> Here's to the ambiguities of vinyl, if not to the scratches and pops and >>> side-ending compression. >>> >>> later, >>> >>> Miles >> >>Wow thats a new one on me... I guess I was used to reading the chicken >>scratches in the run out grooves on the factory stuff for the A and B >>sides, or maybe I had read the NME piece that came out before the record >>was released going through the running order... but didnt the Saville >>Deutche Grammophon style label have an A and B side designation hidden >>there somewhere? maybe not, its been awhile... >> >>Aj > > > ------------------------------ Date: 05 Apr 2000 01:19:08 -0500 From: Jack Steinmann Subject: re: Re[2]: Other bands [NON-Wire] It is fashionable among revisionist Comsat fans (maybe even Stephen Fellows) to cite the Peel sessions as superior to the album renditions, to which I say: NO, you're mistaken, those first three albums are splendidly produced and mixed, Pete Wilson did a terrific job, just listen. But I'm not opinionated about this at all. Jack p.s. And, if you have only the CD reissues of those first three albums, you still haven't heard the original Bouquet of Steel version of Ju Ju Money, which is haunting and understated in a sort of From safety to where...? sort of way. tube disaster replied to: >>Ditto to Comsats Peel sessions (which is called something like 'Time >>described as a helix...'), many of which are better than the reco[r]ded >>versions > >Believe it was called Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones, or >something very close to that ... the title comes from a Samuel R Delaney >story from about 30 years ago, though I dunno if he copped it from somewhere >else (like his then-wife Marilyn Hacker's poetry, perhaps). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 00:18:13 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Other bands [NON-Wire] >>It is fashionable among revisionist Comsat fans (maybe even Stephen Fellows) to cite the Peel sessions as superior to the album renditions, to which I say: NO, you're mistaken, those first three albums are splendidly produced and mixed, Pete Wilson did a terrific job, just listen. But I'm not opinionated about this at all. Jack p.s. And, if you have only the CD reissues of those first three albums, you still haven't heard the original Bouquet of Steel version of Ju Ju Money, which is haunting and understated in a sort of From safety to where...? sort of way.<< Is that perhaps on the Enz collection (not that I can put my hands on mine at the moment)? I'm still cursing the day a few years ago when I actually held Bouquet of Steel in my hands at the used shop across the graveyard from my house, then neglected to make it mine. Dan tube disaster replied to: >>Ditto to Comsats Peel sessions (which is called something like 'Time >>described as a helix...'), many of which are better than the reco[r]ded >>versions > >Believe it was called Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones, or >something very close to that ... the title comes from a Samuel R Delaney >story from about 30 years ago, though I dunno if he copped it from somewhere >else (like his then-wife Marilyn Hacker's poetry, perhaps). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:26:56 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] [194.217.242.91]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id CAA21453 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 02:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pollyanna.demon.co.uk ([194.222.62.49]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 12cirL-000NfW-0X; Wed, 5 Apr 2000 07:00:12 +0100 X-Sender: (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 06:56:59 +0100 To: "tube disaster" , idealcopy@smoe.org From: bmgs@pollyanna.demon.co.uk (Iain & Bunny Smedley) Subject: Re: Ambulance placers Message-Id: Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk >Don't I wish ... they seem to be unavailable from the UK sellers, even. > >Dan, whose Crispy Ambulance stuff is all on tape except for the Four Minutes >from the Frontline 7". Really shouldn't have passed up Plateau Phase on >vinyl for $10 at that record fair a couple of years ago, come to think of >it. You should contact James Nice of LTM Records: jnice@ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk LTM have issued The Plateau Phase, Fin (a live compilation), and are about to release a recording of last year's Crispy Ambulance reunion concert. They have also done CD versions of most of the Section 25 catalogue, and even have a superb full length CD by Tunnelvision of "Watching the Hydroplanes" fame. All LTM releases have full sleevenotes, lots of extra tracks etc - strongly recommended. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:07:54 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Other bands Geez, haven't heard *that* name in nearly 2 decades ... must go dig out my copy of the album. Dan > >I highly recommend Random Hold. Check out http://www.ubl.com and search for Random Hold... > > >Liz > > ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #87 ******************************