From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #84 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, April 3 2000 Volume 03 : Number 084 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: new to list - C. Newman & Janet Smith [timrobinson@cwcom.net] Re: Wire for beginners ["Michel Faber" ] Re: Wire for beginners [Miles Goosens ] Other bands [jasonmb@calweb.com] Other bands [Casper Milquetoast ] Re: Other bands ["tube disaster" ] Re: Wire for beginners [Joshua ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:26:33 +0100 From: timrobinson@cwcom.net Subject: Re: new to list - C. Newman & Janet Smith 7F00,0000,0000> > > I would recommend Pink Flag as a good jumping off point. Firstly, it > > was first, and secondly, it's not entirely dissimilar to the rest of > > their catalog... And I haven't heard "A Bell is a Cup..." or "IBTABA" or > > "Ideal Copy" or "First Letter" -0---> "Pink Flag" is my favorite thus > > far. > > Bah. IBTABA is my favorite album of theirs although Document and > Eyewitness is rapidly getting up there. Pink Flag is definitely early, > definitely punk, and less exploratory than their later stuff. > > - -Joshua Bah! William was suggesting a good starting point for Wire and quite reasonably suggested Pink Flag. Although its a fine album, I wouldn't recommend D&E as a starter for anyone new to wire, seeing as it contains mostly bootleg quality versions of half finished unreleased songs. However, methinks Joshua is trying to demonstrate that he is a more hardcore fan the William. This is pure one-upmanship. No doubt someone will now post a message saying "Thats nothing, my favourite Wire albums are Turns & Strokes and Manscape". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:04:27 +0100 From: "Michel Faber" Subject: Re: Wire for beginners > Bah. IBTABA is my favorite album of theirs although Document >and Eyewitness is rapidly getting up there. > - -Joshua >Bah!...Although its a fine album, I wouldn't recommend D&E as a >starter for anyone new to wire, seeing as it contains mostly bootleg >quality versions of half finished unreleased songs. >However, methinks Joshua is trying to demonstrate that he is a >more hardcore fan than William. >This is pure one-upmanship. No doubt someone will now post a >message saying "Thats nothing, my favourite Wire albums are >Turns & Strokes and Manscape". (Tim Robinson) ____________________________________________ Dear Tim, You're convinced that this Joshua chap's claim that Document and Eyewitness is his favourite Wire album is "pure one-upmanship" from someone who's trying to prove his hard-core credentials. Maybe you're right - You'd certainly expect someone who held a torch for D&E to be well aware that almost everyone would disqualify it on the basis of sound quality alone - Instead, Joshua makes his claim in a casual offhand way, as if he expects the cognoscenti to agree with him. A cool pose, perhaps, as you say. And yet, and yet... I've been playing D&E a lot lately, because I was thinking of getting rid of it (one of these 'I never play this record, maybe I should make some room on my shelves' purges). Before giving it the heave-ho, I thought I'd just tape the best tracks - maybe fill up a 45 minute cassette side with stuff in declining order of interest. And blow me down, the more I listened to the album, selecting its decent moments, the better it got. I kept configuring my tape of it differently, until the 45 minutes were exceeded and I gave up the exercise. I'd ended up really liking and respecting the album - and it's back on my shelves (possibly not to be played again for another few years, mind you). As for Manscape, which you mention as if it should be obvious that anyone who rated it highly would be doing so only to be contrary, I happen to think it's a great record. OK, somewhat bafflingly, it has a really weak opening track, which probably put many hopeful listeners off at the time of its release - 'Life In The Manscape' is a fairly duff song, with woefully feeble drums, abysmally mixed. But there's some magnificent stuff elsewhere on the album - track 2, the wonderfully confident 'Stampede', should have been the opener, then there's Graham's gloriously scathing 'Torch It!', Colin's sinuous 'Other Moments', and the superb sequence of the last four tracks... Is it just me who likes Manscape? Do other Wire fans really think it's so bad? Best wishes, Michel Faber ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:43:32 -0400 From: Casper Milquetoast Subject: Wire for beginner Speaking again for the minions of generation X (Ha Ha Ha, i laugh every time i see blatant commercialism it makes me giggle) starting with Pink Flags or Chairs Missing lends itself to be the best route, just out of the notion that Wire's "punky" material is probably more accessible. I say this because I'm sure most people have backgrounds in punk than anything else. At least that is where I began and I've gained a greater appreciation of the music that way I believe. Off topic but I'll ask anyway, anyone going to pick up the new Modest Mouse album when it comes out? Casper ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 18:36:20 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Wire for beginners At 10:04 PM 04/02/2000 +0100, Michel Faber wrote: >You're convinced that this Joshua chap's claim that Document and >Eyewitness is his favourite Wire album is "pure one-upmanship" >from someone who's trying to prove his hard-core credentials. Thanks, Michel, for stepping in with some well-reasoned prose. While this exchange has been within the realm of civility, let me remind folks that ad hominim attacks are not the way to go. Hopefully Joshua will provide some explication of why he likes D&E best of all, and aside from his "Bah!," his statement was not inflammatory. Even if he's playing the game of "pure one-upsmanship," I don't think being a snobby more-hardcore-than-thou poseur violates any laws. :-) My own suggestion would be to start with either CHAIRS MISSING or THE IDEAL COPY, both of which IMO are five-star albums that communicate what Wire is about in a way that's accessible to the exploratory-minded Wire beginner. PINK FLAG was my own first Wire purchase back when Restless/Enigma started reissuing the Wire catalog on CD, and while I like the album lots and understood even then that it was more oblique and had higher artistic aspirations than the rest of the punk milieu, it didn't inspire me to continue on to CHAIRS MISSING or 154. My own tastes evolved somewhat between 1988 and 1992, but I think if I had bought CM or THE IDEAL COPY, I would have made the evolutionary step much faster! And actually, ON RETURNING and/or THE A LIST wouldn't be bad intros either. The album that hooked me and made me go back and buy the whole catalog? THE FIRST LETTER. I know you'd all like to punt me for that, but it's my list, so you'll just have to stage a coup. ;-) later, listowner Miles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 17:14:36 -0700 From: jasonmb@calweb.com Subject: Other bands Someone recommended these bands to me on a Joy Division mailing list: The Chameleons The Sound Comsat Angels Gang of Four Can anyone comment on them? I've read their biographies at www.ubl.com, and they all sound like bands I would like, but I haven't heard any of their work. Thanks! - -- Jason Borchers jasonmb@calweb.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 20:37:44 -0400 From: Casper Milquetoast Subject: Other bands The only one I've heard of is Gang of Four. I downloaded some of their mp3's from napster and found them to remind me a lot of later Wire. But that remains a sort of uneducated guess because I really don't listen to much older Wire. I did not really care for them but I could see why others would like them. casper ps. By any chance do you have the Joy Division song "The Kill" on mp3? I would greatly appreciate it if you had one and could send it to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 18:58:15 -0700 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Other bands >Someone recommended these bands to me on a Joy Division mailing list: > >The Chameleons Good band, though I have to say I don't go back & listen to them much -- less a comment on them than on the fact that I've got a huge collection & tend toward tunnel vision (or, more apropos, hearing). A couple of their songs -- Soul in Isolation comes to mind immediately -- have certainly stuck with me over the years. Rather more, ah, *emotional* than Wire, I suppose. Broke up acrimoniously about '88, though at least one reunion gig is planned for this year. >The Sound See above. Party in My Mind, Monument & Winter stand out as great individual songs. I always link them to the Chameleons because they not only mined similar veins, they broke up about the same time. Lead singer/songwriter Adrian Borland (whose first band, The Outsiders, came out with what was apparently the first ever self-released UK punk LP, Calling on Youth) unfortunately committed suicide last year. >Comsat Angels See above once more, except that they've been together about 2 decades now. Great first album, in particular ... the song Independence Day has been a personal favorite for going on 2 decades now. >Gang of Four Classic first album, Entertainment, with the first 4 songs (not necessarily in this order ... I'm not unearthing my copy just now) -- Ether, Natural's Not In It, Not Great Men & the immortal Damaged Goods -- constituting perhaps the best opening sequence of any LP I've ever heard. As landmark a postpunk album, really, as Live at the Witch Trials or Second Edition or The Scream or 17 Seconds or Killing Joke or even (dare I say it?) Pink Flag. Second album, Solid Gold, is quite a comedown, though What We All Want is about as good as anything they've ever done. Third album marks a pretty nice comeback, with I Love a Man in a Uniform being an actual semi-hit in the US. Fourth album, Hard, was empty dross. A couple of comeback LPs in the '90s, Mall & Shrinkwrapped, were better than Hard, but nothing to get esp. excited about. Couple of good tracks, though. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 01:59:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Subject: Re: Wire for beginners On Mon, 3 Apr 2000, Joshua wrote: > On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Miles Goosens wrote: > > > While this exchange has been within the realm of civility, let me remind > > folks that ad hominim attacks are not the way to go. Hopefully Joshua will > > provide some explication of why he likes D&E best of all, and aside from > > his "Bah!," his statement was not inflammatory. Even if he's playing the > > game of "pure one-upsmanship," I don't think being a snobby > > more-hardcore-than-thou poseur violates any laws. :-) > > Whoa. I didn't expect this kind of response. > > Well, there was no one-upsmanship involved. I just think Pink Flag isn't > really representative of what they did for 20 years after it came out. > > Also, the bootleggish quality of D&E sounds great to me. There's real > crowd interaction (even if I can't really figure out what that audience > guy's complaining about) and there's some great music, as well using some > really powerful noise and insect vibe. > > > My own suggestion would be to start with either CHAIRS MISSING or THE IDEAL > > COPY, both of which IMO are five-star albums that communicate what Wire is > > about in a way that's accessible to the exploratory-minded Wire > > beginner. > > Diggem. > > > And actually, ON RETURNING and/or THE A LIST wouldn't be bad intros > > either. > > The A List is probably a good place to start since it has such a variety > and all the albums the stuff came from are listen in the jacket. > > > The album that hooked me and made me go back and buy the whole > > catalog? THE FIRST LETTER. I know you'd all like to punt me for that, but > > it's my list, so you'll just have to stage a coup. ;-) > > No need. I love it. > > I just think that the band did so much more since the punk stuff that it > doesn't represent them any more. > > -Joshua > > ___ ___ > > http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) > > --- --- > > ___ ___ http://www.swingpad.com (Digital Art and Artisanship) - --- --- ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #84 ******************************