From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #41 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, February 22 2000 Volume 03 : Number 041 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: More on bootlegs [Wireviews ] Paul Smith [John Roberts ] Re: bootlegs [John Roberts ] Nottingham [John Roberts ] Re[2]: bootlegs [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: Re[2]: bootlegs [John Roberts ] Re[4]: bootlegs [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] No Sunday Night Report?? ["Mark McQuitty" ] Mute Reissues? [John Arnzen ] Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #39 [flaherty michael w ] Re: No Sunday Night Report?? [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: bootlegs ["Michel Faber" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:39:41 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: Re: More on bootlegs Dear all, Having followed the bootleg debate, I thought I'd throw in my 2p. There are two separate arguments going on here. The first details a lack of previous Wire live material presumably due to the band not wishing it released. Many fans are therefore forced to seek alternative means of acquiring said material, hence the bootlegs. Most of said fans already own most, if not all the studio albums and other rarities such as WMO’s Turns and Strokes. Therefore the only risk to the "record company" that the bootlegs present is if a live album with equivalent content is released in the future – pretty unlikely as far as Wire is concerned. Also, as people have pointed out, if Wire were to release a good quality (mixing desk or high-end recording) of, say, ‘80s live material, many people would buy it even if they owned the original albums AND bootlegs. RFH is a completely different matter, because the "record company" is WIRE. If someone bootlegs and sells/spreads this gig they will not be ripping off EMI, Mute, etc and depriving Wire of some potential royalties; they will be ripping off Wire directly, taking money out of their pockets, so to speak. Also, Wire should be commended on the fact that at last they are planning to release a live CD to the general public. Perhaps if sales of the gig recording go well, and feedback is good, it might persuade them to issue some of the back-catalogue of live recordings, that is assuming they can get permission from the relevant sources. Of course, if Wire don’t end up releasing a live RFH CD after all then this argument turns on its head once again and reverts back to my spiel about the ‘70s/’80s stuff. I guess we will have to see how the pieces fall. Craig/Wireviews. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://welcome.to/wireviews News, reviews and dugga. Snub.Comms: http://welcome.to/snub Veer Audio: http://listen.to/veer - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:12:53 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Paul Smith I won't be reading any correspondence on this matter so please don't bother to write back, I DO have a band to manage & I want to be able to concentrate on giving them the best service I can. Cheers, Paul Smith Manager for Wire Is this the same Paul Smith of Blast! First infamy? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:50:34 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: bootlegs I'd just like to say that I agree with everything Michel says here. I also own some Wire bootleg albums. I also happen to own all their official releases bar a couple of singles of which teh tracks have appeared on the EMI reissues CDs anyhow. I don't buy bootlegs *instead* of official releases, why would I? And, as Michel says, if CBI2H were issued by Wire themselves with some pretty pics and was dealt with in a decent studio to sharpen it up a bit then I'd buy that too. The fact is that there has been v little Wire live stuff available: just the few tracks that made it onto Ideal Copy CD/singles of that period and of course Document. These are testament to the fact that as those who've seen Wire live, own bootlegs e.g. that Italian book/CD know: that they rearrange their songs often completely. Whilst everyone would like to see Wire make money out their work rather than EMI, or to be honest, Daniel Miller, who I would suspect doesn't really need it!!, it is a bit concerning that Wire are acting like control freaks in a manner not entirely disimilar to the Phil Collins, U2s that Michel mentions. But few 'artists' don't do this. I was reading an interview with David Thomas of Pere Ubu who is exercising a similar authoritarian perspective with regard early Ubu recordings. I guess it's in the nature of people to want to rewrite their own personal histories to remove all they consider to be warts. The fact also remains however that those warts exist or existed and that at some point in time those warts *were* visible. All I know is that if I were Wire I'd be proud of every note I'd produced, warts n all. the fact also remains that without an audience or fans Wire would not exist. So, let's have a bit of give and take. Fans aren't stupid as Michel quite rightly states. If the product is *that* bad then people won't buy it. And if they are unfortunate to have been bitten once i.e. they were unable to listen to it at the time and when they get it home it *is* bad then they don't go back to that source. But what I'd really like to know is when is someone going to produce a *reasonably* priced video becuase I have to say that the ones that I know to be available *are* overpriced. Perhaps Wire would do well to release for example the footage that they will be showing at the RFH? Or if someone does know of any *reasonably* priced videos they could mail me off list? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:28:33 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Nottingham The mystery of the non appearing Wire tickets has been solved. When I phoned them up t'other week I was told to make my cheque out to Heavenly Social Club. Which, of course, is wrong. So instead of using the SAE I provided them with to let me know they just wait until I phone up and ask where my bloody tickets are. Which, I did several times before I finally got to talk to someone on Saturday who knew what I was on about. The band are meant to be on "about 8.30 to 9pm". Which suggests that they're running thru the entire RFH performance(s). Can anyone out there confirm or deny this? And who's going and are we likely to be propping up the bar together at any point? As I've said before there are eight of us coming from Leicester of which two are listers. I should also point out that most of us are diehard Leicester City fans so none of this nonsense about wearing Watford shirts please. 8-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:26:55 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: bootlegs And, as Michel says, if CBI2H were issued by Wire themselves with some pretty pics and was dealt with in a decent studio to sharpen it up a bit then I'd buy that too. >>>> you know i've been trying to find a copy of this for about 5 years now with absolutely no luck at all. i gather it was "semi-official" with the band/mute giving approval (is that true?). if so then maybe it was a forerunner of what's to come (fine by me). and if anyone sees a copy of cbi2h for sale , feel free to point it my way.p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:33:41 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Re[2]: bootlegs I don't know about this being a semi official bootleg but I do think that this is the one with the spine of the sleeve which makes it look like an official Mute release. I'm at work, not at home, so I'm running off my poor memory here but I think I'm right in saying that the spine states that the album is a Fad Gadget or Frank Tovey release and even has the cheek to give a Mute cat no STUMM 4(?). If it isn't this one then there is definitely a Wire bootleg album in my collection with something similar on the spine. On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 paul.rabjohn@ssab.com wrote: > > And, as Michel says, if CBI2H > were issued by Wire themselves with some pretty pics and was dealt with in a decent studio to sharpen it up a bit then I'd buy that too. > > >>>> you know i've been trying to find a copy of this for about 5 years now with absolutely no luck at all. i gather it was "semi-official" with the band/mute giving approval (is that true?). if so then maybe it was a forerunner of what's to come (fine by me). > > and if anyone sees a copy of cbi2h for sale , feel free to point it my way.p > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:20:05 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[4]: bootlegs i think you're thinking of the "midnacht bahnhof cafe" bootleg which has boyd rice and a mute cat. no. on the spine (strangely , that would have been well pre-mute). maybe a balls-up by the sleeve printer the bootlegger used? p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Re[2]: bootlegs Author: MIME:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 21/02/2000 16:40 I don't know about this being a semi official bootleg but I do think that this is the one with the spine of the sleeve which makes it look like an official Mute release. I'm at work, not at home, so I'm running off my poor memory here but I think I'm right in saying that the spine states that the album is a Fad Gadget or Frank Tovey release and even has the cheek to give a Mute cat no STUMM 4(?). If it isn't this one then there is definitely a Wire bootleg album in my collection with something similar on the spine. On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 paul.rabjohn@ssab.com wrote: > > And, as Michel says, if CBI2H > were issued by Wire themselves with some pretty pics and was dealt with in a decent studio to sharpen it up a bit then I'd buy that too. > > >>>> you know i've been trying to find a copy of this for about 5 years now with absolutely no luck at all. i gather it was "semi-official" with the band/mute giving approval (is that true?). if so then maybe it was a forerunner of what's to come (fine by me). > > and if anyone sees a copy of cbi2h for sale , feel free to point it my way.p > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 22:21:52 -0000 From: "Mark McQuitty" Subject: No Sunday Night Report?? Logged on Monday night for my Ideal Copy digest hoping to find some reports of the Sunday night Dublin gig. Nothing. Didn't anybody on the list attend? Oh well, I'm sure there will be more reports following the Nottingham date. Can't wait. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:45:34 -0800 (PST) From: John Arnzen Subject: Mute Reissues? Howdy all-- I read in a copy of Stomp'n'Stammer a couple months ago that Mute was planning on reissuing the "2nd wave" ('85-'90 era) Wire discs around the same time as the reunion gig. However, I haven't found any info related to this on the Mute site, nor on new-release lists. Anyone got any info on this? (BTW, I apologize if this has been asked before... I checked the digest archives from most recent to about the beginning of the year, but didn't find anything.) Thanks! john __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:12:55 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V3 #39 On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, idealcopy-digest wrote: > From: "MackDaddyD" > Subject: Re: Tapes > > > That Kevin's offer (or Andrew's) could make anyone angry is laughable. > > They're not costing anyone anything, just making some people happy. > > Evidently some people don't read or listen (carefully). > I expect that if the band asked him not to copy old boots, he would oblige. > Kevin's original post was aimed at some unknown (to me ) individual who was > adding a surcharge if you will to tapes and CD-Rs. Well, I agree w/ your first sentence. Wire's manager clearly doesn't want Kevin to "sell" tapes for a staggering 1 pound each (hey, don't spend it all in one place Kevin!), OR Wire's manager's post did not clearly convey his wishes clearly. As someone said, it sounded as if he was OK w/ trading, but only Wire is alowed to give the product away, a rather bizarre stance. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:50:57 -0600 From: Jorge Punaro Subject: RE: Mute Reissues? Yes, Mute will be re-releasing it´s Wire catalogue, I don´t know the UK release dates but you can find the US ones at http://www.mutelibtech.com/mute/news/usrel.htm Saludos Jorge - -----Mensaje original----- De: John Arnzen Para: idealcopy@smoe.org Fecha: Lunes, 21 de Febrero de 2000 05:45 p.m. Asunto: Mute Reissues? >Howdy all-- > >I read in a copy of Stomp'n'Stammer a couple months >ago that Mute was planning on reissuing the "2nd wave" >('85-'90 era) Wire discs around the same time as the >reunion gig. > >However, I haven't found any info related to this on >the Mute site, nor on new-release lists. Anyone got >any info on this? > >(BTW, I apologize if this has been asked before... I >checked the digest archives from most recent to about >the beginning of the year, but didn't find anything.) > >Thanks! > >john > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. >http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:11:30 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re: No Sunday Night Report?? yes , that thought occurred to me too. we're all lightweights obviously..... actually dublin would be one hell of a trip and nottm is (for most uk people) way cheaper and more accessible. wonder how big wire are in ireland? p (looking forward to tomorrow like mad) ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: No Sunday Night Report?? Author: MIME:mark@cipher.freeserve.co.uk at INTERNET Date: 21/02/2000 23:35 Logged on Monday night for my Ideal Copy digest hoping to find some reports of the Sunday night Dublin gig. Nothing. Didn't anybody on the list attend? Oh well, I'm sure there will be more reports following the Nottingham date. Can't wait. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 09:25:40 -0000 From: "Michel Faber" Subject: Re: bootlegs Dear George, This is a tricky issue. Yes, provocateurs should expect a certain amount of kickback from the powers they challenge. I guess it's a matter of degree. A cartoonist in (I think) China was arrested last week for portraying a government body as a wily crocodile. I would suggest that anyone who tried to assert that this chap 'got what was coming to him' might be being a bit harsh. A muddier case would be that of Lenny Bruce, who tirelessly provoked the US legal system, and was victimised by it in return. Was he treated more brutally than his provocation warranted? A matter for debate. As for Negativland, I'm glad they lived to tell the tale. Your cynicism about the publicity they've generated through being bullied by Island/U2 may or may not be justified. I tend to think not. The mere fact that they've survived doesn't mean they wouldn't much rather the whole thing had never happened. If a woman is raped and put through hell in the courts, and subsequently tells her story in a book aimed at other rape victims, would you argue that she's done all right out of the experience? Michel Faber original message: ______________________________________________________ From: george.m.hook@ac.com To: "Michel Faber" Date sent: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:10:17 -0600 Subject: Re: bootlegs Well, Negativeland isn't exactly "crushed." They are playing a gig in Chicago next month, I believe. And maybe this publicity about being "sued" by U2 (or Island Records, whatever) was beneficial to their career; I mean, they made a movie out of it. If you are going to be a provocateur, that's your job, isn't it? ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #41 ******************************