From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V3 #7 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, January 14 2000 Volume 03 : Number 007 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: American new wave. [John Roberts ] Re[2]: American new wave. [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: American new wave. [obie ] Re: Re[2]: American new wave. [John Roberts ] RE: American new wave. ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: American new wave. ["Wilson, Chad" ] Re: American new wave. [MarkBursa@aol.com] RE: American new wave. ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: American new wave. [Aaron Mandel ] RE: American new wave. ["Wilson, Chad" ] RE: American new wave. ["Ciscon, Ray" ] RE: American new wave. [Miles Goosens ] RE: American new wave. ["Ciscon, Ray" ] Re: American new wave. [Brian ] Re: American new wave. [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re:rants ["MackDaddyD" ] Re: American new wave. [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Re: American new wave. ["tube disaster" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:31:03 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: American new wave. A lot of my mates listen to current American 'punk' bands. I had the misfortune to hear SmashMouth last night. This morning I put on my spanking new Subway Sect CD (well it's stuff recorded between 77 and 80). Is it just me or are these so-called new 'punk' bands repetitive, dull, and worst of all tunefull? What happened to the punk 'spirit' of challenging conventions, being able to record stuff with out of tune instruments, not using conventional beat combo, singing out of tune etc etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:49:46 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: Re[2]: American new wave. well green day and the offspring are probably millionaires and vic godard has to work as a postman , that probably tells you something. i rate vic incredibly highly , the "20 odd years" cd is brilliant if anyone is looking for something interesting to buy this weekend.p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: American new wave. Author: MIME:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk at INTERNET Date: 14/01/2000 17:36 A lot of my mates listen to current American 'punk' bands. I had the misfortune to hear SmashMouth last night. This morning I put on my spanking new Subway Sect CD (well it's stuff recorded between 77 and 80). Is it just me or are these so-called new 'punk' bands repetitive, dull, and worst of all tunefull? What happened to the punk 'spirit' of challenging conventions, being able to record stuff with out of tune instruments, not using conventional beat combo, singing out of tune etc etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:56:35 -0800 From: obie Subject: Re: American new wave. well , you cant get on MTV if you sing out of tune and cant tune your instruments. If you don't get on MTV , you wont get on the radio, it makes it much harder to sell-out that way! :-) John Roberts wrote: > > A lot of my mates listen to current American 'punk' bands. I had the > misfortune to hear SmashMouth last night. This morning I put on my > spanking new Subway Sect CD (well it's stuff recorded between 77 and 80). > Is it just me or are these so-called new > 'punk' bands repetitive, dull, and worst of all tunefull? What happened > to the punk 'spirit' of challenging conventions, being able to record > stuff with out of tune instruments, not using conventional beat combo, > singing out of tune etc etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:03:52 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: Re[2]: American new wave. After rereading my original mail I'd like to add another point: there were/are a lot of interesting American (and elsewhere) groups. I don't want people to think I'm some kind of Little Englander, just that a lot of stuff that aspires to being punk or new wave is in fact incredibly tedious and uninspired. Whether it's SmashMouth, China Drum, Pennywise, Propaghandi, Green Day...it's all a bit dull isn't it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:55:12 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: American new wave. Trust me, when it comes to present-day American 'pop' music, SmashMouth is one of the better bands out right now. At least they have a grasp on the concept of melody and most of their songs feature a nice sense of humor. The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. Examples of these 'genres' would include: 3rd Eye Blind, Korn, Matchbox 20, Live, Limp Bizkit, Counting Crows, Dave Matthews Band, Goo Goo Dolls, Filter, Hole, Blink 182, Creed, Everlast, Kid Rock, Godsmack, Stroke 9, Silverchair, Lit, Marilyn Manson, Powerman 5000, Buckcherry, Stone Temple Pilots, Collective Soul, Soul Coughing, Fear Factory, Tonic, Semisonic, Cottonmouth Kings, Verve Pipe, Everclear, Blind Melon, Sebadoh, System of a Down, Afghan Whigs, Pavement, Dovetail Joint, Better Than Ezra, Monster Magnet, Sponge, Inspiral Carpets, Silverchair, Seven Mary Three, The Flys, Stabbing Westward, Lush, Rancid, Pennywise, White Zombie, Tool, Four Non Blondes, L7, Screaming Trees, Soundgarden, Our Lady Peace, Dishwalla, Candlebox, and last - and least - in my book is Rage Against the Machine... A bunch of rich California kids who've never had to work a day in their life, preaching Maoist/Lenninist shite to the oblivious masses. Reading that list I just wrote, besides making me nauseous, makes me aware of just how bad American radio IS... Getting off my soapbox... Ray Ciscon In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 10:31 AM To: Vinylecho@aol.com Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: American new wave. A lot of my mates listen to current American 'punk' bands. I had the misfortune to hear SmashMouth last night. This morning I put on my spanking new Subway Sect CD (well it's stuff recorded between 77 and 80). Is it just me or are these so-called new 'punk' bands repetitive, dull, and worst of all tunefull? What happened to the punk 'spirit' of challenging conventions, being able to record stuff with out of tune instruments, not using conventional beat combo, singing out of tune etc etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:26:17 -0800 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: RE: American new wave. I agree, about the only thing worse to me are "Indistinguishable Computer Based Bands", you know the ones that have "Acid Factor" or "Trance Method" or some other retarded ass cliche name. Guitars aren't the problem though are they? I mean, if it were guitars that were the problem, I guess I would toss Chairs Missing, Pink Flag and 154 out the Window, along with my Thin White Rope collection (Guitars done VERY right). I think it is the fact that they are all just stuck in the same format, with the same singing style, with the same pop garbage lyrics, the same verse chorus puke. In your list, I would agree with all but SoundGarden, hardly "Indistinguishable". At least they are copying from a band that has been defunct for 20+ years, where the new trend seems to be to copy a band from a year ago. Bush begat Third Eye Blind Begat Stroke 9 (Whom I played a show with a few years ago, they backed into our Van and drove off without even offering to trade insurance cards!). :-) So anyway Ray, you are preaching to the choir dude, we all know that pop radio will always be like this and always has! At least here in the US. Chad - -----Original Message----- From: Ciscon, Ray [mailto:RCiscon@comark.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 11:55 AM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: RE: American new wave. Trust me, when it comes to present-day American 'pop' music, SmashMouth is one of the better bands out right now. At least they have a grasp on the concept of melody and most of their songs feature a nice sense of humor. The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. Examples of these 'genres' would include: 3rd Eye Blind, Korn, Matchbox 20, Live, Limp Bizkit, Counting Crows, Dave Matthews Band, Goo Goo Dolls, Filter, Hole, Blink 182, Creed, Everlast, Kid Rock, Godsmack, Stroke 9, Silverchair, Lit, Marilyn Manson, Powerman 5000, Buckcherry, Stone Temple Pilots, Collective Soul, Soul Coughing, Fear Factory, Tonic, Semisonic, Cottonmouth Kings, Verve Pipe, Everclear, Blind Melon, Sebadoh, System of a Down, Afghan Whigs, Pavement, Dovetail Joint, Better Than Ezra, Monster Magnet, Sponge, Inspiral Carpets, Silverchair, Seven Mary Three, The Flys, Stabbing Westward, Lush, Rancid, Pennywise, White Zombie, Tool, Four Non Blondes, L7, Screaming Trees, Soundgarden, Our Lady Peace, Dishwalla, Candlebox, and last - and least - in my book is Rage Against the Machine... A bunch of rich California kids who've never had to work a day in their life, preaching Maoist/Lenninist shite to the oblivious masses. Reading that list I just wrote, besides making me nauseous, makes me aware of just how bad American radio IS... Getting off my soapbox... Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:32:45 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: American new wave. Ray, I agree that most of the bands you name are dull - from your list I'd exempt Pavement, Sebadoh (as genuinely original), Soundgarden and Hole (at least you know it's them). Nor would I include Brit-indie like Lush or Inspiral Carpets. From a British point of view, at least you have "non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio"..indeed "rock radio". Outside a few UK cities in the UK, most of the "pop" radio just plays either chart shit all day or MOR Phil Collins/Dire Straits drivel. In London it took six years for XFM to get a licence, while GLR, which also played some good music, is going almost all-talk format. And XFM concentrates on Indie Britpop stuff, and has now gone to a playlist. So you get Travis and Semisonic all day, every hour... I travel to the US a lot - mainly Detroit - and while the "alternative" stations do play a lot of the stuff in your list, at least there are three of them to choose from and believe me, that's WAY better than the situation here... Mark << Trust me, when it comes to present-day American 'pop' music, SmashMouth is one of the better bands out right now. At least they have a grasp on the concept of melody and most of their songs feature a nice sense of humor. The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. Examples of these 'genres' would include: 3rd Eye Blind, Korn, Matchbox 20, Live, Limp Bizkit, Counting Crows, Dave Matthews Band, Goo Goo Dolls, Filter, Hole, Blink 182, Creed, Everlast, Kid Rock, Godsmack, Stroke 9, Silverchair, Lit, Marilyn Manson, Powerman 5000, Buckcherry, Stone Temple Pilots, Collective Soul, Soul Coughing, Fear Factory, Tonic, Semisonic, Cottonmouth Kings, Verve Pipe, Everclear, Blind Melon, Sebadoh, System of a Down, Afghan Whigs, Pavement, Dovetail Joint, Better Than Ezra, Monster Magnet, Sponge, Inspiral Carpets, Silverchair, Seven Mary Three, The Flys, Stabbing Westward, Lush, Rancid, Pennywise, White Zombie, Tool, Four Non Blondes, L7, Screaming Trees, Soundgarden, Our Lady Peace, Dishwalla, Candlebox, and last - and least - in my book is Rage Against the Machine... A bunch of rich California kids who've never had to work a day in their life, preaching Maoist/Lenninist shite to the oblivious masses. Reading that list I just wrote, besides making me nauseous, makes me aware of just how bad American radio IS... Getting off my soapbox... Ray Ciscon >> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:39:06 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: American new wave. Chad, I don't know about radio where you live, but "Indistinguishable Computer Based Bands" don't get ANY airplay in the Chicago area... If you're referring to bands/artists like "The Crystal Method", "Moby", "Underworld", "Orbital", "Chemical Brothers", etc. I'd have to disagree with you totally. I think these artist have a lot more in common with Wire than any of the bands I've listed below. I'm in my mid-30's now, and I've tired of 'performance-based' artists. It is frankly impossible for Wire to bring their 'studio' sound into live venue's, so they re-work their songs for a live setting. The results are sometimes better, sometimes not... but they're never dull or boring. Wire, and the bands I've listed above, IMO are closer to classical composers who arrange music and sounds into a 'song' structure. The tools they, and Wire, choose to use in the studio are often synthesizers. In America, this is often seen as a 'bad' thing. Many, many American's believe that if a band or an artist cannot 'replicate' the sound of their studio compositions on a live stage, they are not as good as those who can. I don't believe that at all. I PREFER my music to be a bit more complex than what can be recreated on a stage with two guitars, bass, and drums. I also don't listen to the same music I listened to in high school. It seems to me that most Americans fall into that trap... I liked Led Zepplin when I was in High School in the late 70's - early 80's, so I really like Soundgarden in the 90's... not much in the way of growth IMO. I don't have anything against guitars, and I think you keyed into what I was talking about them all sounding the same. I had a good friend of mine rave on and on about how good the "Dave Matthews Band" was. He loaned me one of their CD's, I listened to it about a half a dozen times, both concentrating on the music/lyrics and as background music... to this day I cannot tell you a single memorable thing about the entire CD. Cheers, Ray Ciscon In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: Wilson, Chad [mailto:CWilson@thedoctors.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 2:26 PM To: 'idealcopy@smoe.org' Subject: RE: American new wave. I agree, about the only thing worse to me are "Indistinguishable Computer Based Bands", you know the ones that have "Acid Factor" or "Trance Method" or some other retarded ass cliche name. Guitars aren't the problem though are they? I mean, if it were guitars that were the problem, I guess I would toss Chairs Missing, Pink Flag and 154 out the Window, along with my Thin White Rope collection (Guitars done VERY right). I think it is the fact that they are all just stuck in the same format, with the same singing style, with the same pop garbage lyrics, the same verse chorus puke. In your list, I would agree with all but SoundGarden, hardly "Indistinguishable". At least they are copying from a band that has been defunct for 20+ years, where the new trend seems to be to copy a band from a year ago. Bush begat Third Eye Blind Begat Stroke 9 (Whom I played a show with a few years ago, they backed into our Van and drove off without even offering to trade insurance cards!). :-) So anyway Ray, you are preaching to the choir dude, we all know that pop radio will always be like this and always has! At least here in the US. Chad -----Original Message----- From: Ciscon, Ray [mailto:RCiscon@comark.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 11:55 AM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: RE: American new wave. Trust me, when it comes to present-day American 'pop' music, SmashMouth is one of the better bands out right now. At least they have a grasp on the concept of melody and most of their songs feature a nice sense of humor. The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. Examples of these 'genres' would include: 3rd Eye Blind, Korn, Matchbox 20, Live, Limp Bizkit, Counting Crows, Dave Matthews Band, Goo Goo Dolls, Filter, Hole, Blink 182, Creed, Everlast, Kid Rock, Godsmack, Stroke 9, Silverchair, Lit, Marilyn Manson, Powerman 5000, Buckcherry, Stone Temple Pilots, Collective Soul, Soul Coughing, Fear Factory, Tonic, Semisonic, Cottonmouth Kings, Verve Pipe, Everclear, Blind Melon, Sebadoh, System of a Down, Afghan Whigs, Pavement, Dovetail Joint, Better Than Ezra, Monster Magnet, Sponge, Inspiral Carpets, Silverchair, Seven Mary Three, The Flys, Stabbing Westward, Lush, Rancid, Pennywise, White Zombie, Tool, Four Non Blondes, L7, Screaming Trees, Soundgarden, Our Lady Peace, Dishwalla, Candlebox, and last - and least - in my book is Rage Against the Machine... A bunch of rich California kids who've never had to work a day in their life, preaching Maoist/Lenninist shite to the oblivious masses. Reading that list I just wrote, besides making me nauseous, makes me aware of just how bad American radio IS... Getting off my soapbox... Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:20:40 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: RE: American new wave. On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Ciscon, Ray wrote: > The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is > dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the > unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. > > Soul Coughing > Pavement > Inspiral Carpets If you can't distinguish these three from each other, nor from the other hundred bands you named -- and, for that matter, if you think Soul Coughing or Inspiral Carpets are guitar-based bands -- it says more about your perspective than about them. But you apparently listen to a lot more radio than I do... I recognized most of those bands, but would have been hard-pressed to come up with their names on my own. On the other hand, I do remember that when I was forced to listen to the radio at a temp job a few years ago, I vastly preferred a constant stream of mediocre dance-pop top 40 to the alternative (I won't even bother putting it in quotes; it's a demographic term now) stations that would play one solid rock song followed by two bands that, like as not, were on Ray's list. Say, speaking of Wire, anyone know whether "Ahead (II)" will be on the reissue of The Ideal Copy? I know they said there were no bonus tracks, but, well, it was on SOME pressings of the original disc... aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 13:33:33 -0800 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: RE: American new wave. No, you are right, none of the computer bands I am talking about are on the radio. My point is that there is this giant counter guitar movement in the San Francisco area where I live. Like your experience with the Dave Mathews CD my brother in law brings me this "Acid Method" CD and the whole thing is the same speed (Dance mixable?) with Boom chic Boom Chic, insert LFO sweep here, crazy analog bassline there, and your obligatory ripped kraftwerk parts... I wouldn't say that I am anti-electronic music and my second favorite album of all time (Behind only Spirit of Eden by Talk Talk) is He Said - Hail... To me there is a HUGE gap between the quality of music found on Hail, and the current wave of copycat Dance, Trance and Acid music. I think we essentially agree, that the problem is with a lack of originality essentially. To be fair I have not given Moby, or Chemical Brothers much of a listen and perhaps I will. I think good music can transcend the method by which it was created, for the most part. I am young enough to have missed Zepplin so for me Soundgarden was a total eye opener. I was listening to Supertramp and the Police back in those days, and I was maybe 10 or 11 years old. Performance isn't everything, but it adds another dimension to which one can enjoy music. One of the most enjoyable shows I ever saw was Wire at the Fillmore in 1987. No cock grabbing or flailing solo's but plenty of Graham's "Im a big mean guy" faces and lots of Bruce looking up at the rafters. Great to hear that volume of noise and music from people essentially standing still. - -Chad - -----Original Message----- From: Ciscon, Ray [mailto:RCiscon@comark.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:39 PM To: 'idealcopy@smoe.org' Subject: RE: American new wave. Chad, I don't know about radio where you live, but "Indistinguishable Computer Based Bands" don't get ANY airplay in the Chicago area... If you're referring to bands/artists like "The Crystal Method", "Moby", "Underworld", "Orbital", "Chemical Brothers", etc. I'd have to disagree with you totally. I think these artist have a lot more in common with Wire than any of the bands I've listed below. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:34:50 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: American new wave. Chad, Those must be dance club remixes you're talking about... I've heard them, and they ARE crap. The 'electronica' artists (I hate labels, but it's better than most) I mentioned all have some really good work out there. If you've not yet sampled 'good' electronica, pick up "Play" by Moby, or "Insides" by Orbital. The music on these releases range from simple melodies to compositions as complex as an orchestral symphony. As for Soundgarden, I had an older sister that played NOTHING but Led Zepplin 24/7... so I grokked Led Zepplin and learned to truly hate their music, and probably turned me onto the path of Punk/New Wave/Electronica. Every Soundgarden song I've heard was simply a bastard child of a Led Zepplin song. The number one 'Alternative' station in Chicago plays 'Black Hole Sun' at least once a day even though the band's been gone for a few years... When I hear it, my teeth begin to itch, and I quickly reach for the radio to change the station. Cheers, Ray Ciscon In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: Wilson, Chad [mailto:CWilson@thedoctors.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 3:34 PM To: 'idealcopy@smoe.org' Subject: RE: American new wave. No, you are right, none of the computer bands I am talking about are on the radio. My point is that there is this giant counter guitar movement in the San Francisco area where I live. Like your experience with the Dave Mathews CD my brother in law brings me this "Acid Method" CD and the whole thing is the same speed (Dance mixable?) with Boom chic Boom Chic, insert LFO sweep here, crazy analog bassline there, and your obligatory ripped kraftwerk parts... I wouldn't say that I am anti-electronic music and my second favorite album of all time (Behind only Spirit of Eden by Talk Talk) is He Said - Hail... To me there is a HUGE gap between the quality of music found on Hail, and the current wave of copycat Dance, Trance and Acid music. I think we essentially agree, that the problem is with a lack of originality essentially. To be fair I have not given Moby, or Chemical Brothers much of a listen and perhaps I will. I think good music can transcend the method by which it was created, for the most part. I am young enough to have missed Zepplin so for me Soundgarden was a total eye opener. I was listening to Supertramp and the Police back in those days, and I was maybe 10 or 11 years old. Performance isn't everything, but it adds another dimension to which one can enjoy music. One of the most enjoyable shows I ever saw was Wire at the Fillmore in 1987. No cock grabbing or flailing solo's but plenty of Graham's "Im a big mean guy" faces and lots of Bruce looking up at the rafters. Great to hear that volume of noise and music from people essentially standing still. -Chad -----Original Message----- From: Ciscon, Ray [mailto:RCiscon@comark.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 12:39 PM To: 'idealcopy@smoe.org' Subject: RE: American new wave. Chad, I don't know about radio where you live, but "Indistinguishable Computer Based Bands" don't get ANY airplay in the Chicago area... If you're referring to bands/artists like "The Crystal Method", "Moby", "Underworld", "Orbital", "Chemical Brothers", etc. I'd have to disagree with you totally. I think these artist have a lot more in common with Wire than any of the bands I've listed below. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:49:10 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: RE: American new wave. At 04:20 PM 01/14/2000 -0500, Aaron Mandel wrote: >On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Ciscon, Ray wrote: > >> The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is >> dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the >> unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. >> >> Soul Coughing >> Pavement >> Inspiral Carpets > >If you can't distinguish these three from each other, nor from the other >hundred bands you named -- and, for that matter, if you think Soul >Coughing or Inspiral Carpets are guitar-based bands -- it says more about >your perspective than about them. I'm sure that many of us have three or four bands we'd pull off Ray's list, whether we like 'em or not -- I loathe Pavement, but "indistinguishable" is about the last adjective I'd hurl at them, and I rarely hear them on commercial stations. Sure you didn't mean "Collective Soul" instead of "Soul Coughing," Ray? Rage Against the Machine may be selling records, but it's largely without radio support. And "guitar-based" or not, someone's still playing Inspiral Carpets? But to take Ray's point -- and aaron's when he says: >On the other hand, I do remember that when I was forced to listen to the >radio at a temp job a few years ago, I vastly preferred a constant stream >of mediocre dance-pop top 40 to the alternative (I won't even bother >putting it in quotes; it's a demographic term now) stations that would >play one solid rock song followed by two bands that, like as not, were on >Ray's list. I concur. Disposable dance-pop is way more bearable than the pretentious demeanor of seriousness and importance sported by most of the bands on Ray's list. I do think a caveat needs to be added here -- this phenomena of "alternative" guitar bands dominating a segment of US radio was fairly short-lived, and peaked sometime in 1995-96, the years of Alice Silverchair Mary Three Temple Bush in Chains. The stations who used to play all those bands have tended to go back to "classic rock" or slide into a more "adult alternative" format (the latter usually meaning more singer-songwritery) in recent years. And looking over Ray's list, I find confirmation for my long-standing theory that when people tell you they hate Pearl Jam or Nine Inch Nails, two bands which I personally like fine, they're reacting less to the bands themselves than to the horde of second-rate imitators which exploit the former artists' commercial breakthroughs and then flood the airwaves. It's Seven Mary Three and Filter that are *really* putting people off, IMO, though the former bands can't help but get their feet caught in the sludge. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:58:07 -0600 From: "Ciscon, Ray" Subject: RE: American new wave. Miles, You are 100% correct... it WAS Collective Soul and not Soul Coughing... come to think of it, I've heard of Soul Coughing, but I can't remember ever hearing any of their music. In my original post I didn't intend to state that my "indistinguishable guitar-based bands", heavy metal, and heavymetal/rap were indistinguishable, but that they are the genres that dominate so-called 'Alternative' rock stations. You are also correct about Pearl Jam and Nine Inch Nails... neither of those were on my list because in one way or the other they were 'distinguishable' from the rest of the shite. I'm not as big a Pearl Jam fan as you may be, but I will still occasionally find my self singing, or is it mumbling, along to a Pearl Jam song on the radio. Nine Inch Nails/Trent Reznor started his own 'genre' with a bunch of bands that copied his sound so closely it was sometimes hard to tell... Gravity Kills and Orgy are two NiN clones that come to mind... there are many more. Cheers, Ray Ciscon In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. ** -----Original Message----- From: Miles Goosens [mailto:wireadmin@mindspring.com] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 3:49 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: RE: American new wave. At 04:20 PM 01/14/2000 -0500, Aaron Mandel wrote: >On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Ciscon, Ray wrote: > >> The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is >> dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the >> unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. >> >> Soul Coughing >> Pavement >> Inspiral Carpets > >If you can't distinguish these three from each other, nor from the other >hundred bands you named -- and, for that matter, if you think Soul >Coughing or Inspiral Carpets are guitar-based bands -- it says more about >your perspective than about them. I'm sure that many of us have three or four bands we'd pull off Ray's list, whether we like 'em or not -- I loathe Pavement, but "indistinguishable" is about the last adjective I'd hurl at them, and I rarely hear them on commercial stations. Sure you didn't mean "Collective Soul" instead of "Soul Coughing," Ray? Rage Against the Machine may be selling records, but it's largely without radio support. And "guitar-based" or not, someone's still playing Inspiral Carpets? But to take Ray's point -- and aaron's when he says: >On the other hand, I do remember that when I was forced to listen to the >radio at a temp job a few years ago, I vastly preferred a constant stream >of mediocre dance-pop top 40 to the alternative (I won't even bother >putting it in quotes; it's a demographic term now) stations that would >play one solid rock song followed by two bands that, like as not, were on >Ray's list. I concur. Disposable dance-pop is way more bearable than the pretentious demeanor of seriousness and importance sported by most of the bands on Ray's list. I do think a caveat needs to be added here -- this phenomena of "alternative" guitar bands dominating a segment of US radio was fairly short-lived, and peaked sometime in 1995-96, the years of Alice Silverchair Mary Three Temple Bush in Chains. The stations who used to play all those bands have tended to go back to "classic rock" or slide into a more "adult alternative" format (the latter usually meaning more singer-songwritery) in recent years. And looking over Ray's list, I find confirmation for my long-standing theory that when people tell you they hate Pearl Jam or Nine Inch Nails, two bands which I personally like fine, they're reacting less to the bands themselves than to the horde of second-rate imitators which exploit the former artists' commercial breakthroughs and then flood the airwaves. It's Seven Mary Three and Filter that are *really* putting people off, IMO, though the former bands can't help but get their feet caught in the sludge. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:26:36 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: American new wave. Just, listen to Blessed State - 154, pretty much sums it up. "Ciscon, Ray" wrote: > Trust me, when it comes to present-day American 'pop' music, SmashMouth is > one of the better bands out right now. At least they have a grasp on the > concept of melody and most of their songs feature a nice sense of humor. > > The sad fact is that non-urban & non-'classic' rock radio in America is > dominated by what I refer to as: "Indistinguishable Guitar-based Bands", the > unholy abomination that is HeavyMetal/Rap, and Heavy Metal. > > Examples of these 'genres' would include: > > 3rd Eye Blind, Korn, Matchbox 20, Live, Limp Bizkit, Counting Crows, Dave > Matthews Band, Goo Goo Dolls, Filter, Hole, Blink 182, Creed, Everlast, Kid > Rock, Godsmack, Stroke 9, Silverchair, Lit, Marilyn Manson, Powerman 5000, > Buckcherry, Stone Temple Pilots, Collective Soul, Soul Coughing, Fear > Factory, Tonic, Semisonic, Cottonmouth Kings, Verve Pipe, Everclear, Blind > Melon, Sebadoh, System of a Down, Afghan Whigs, Pavement, Dovetail Joint, > Better Than Ezra, Monster Magnet, Sponge, Inspiral Carpets, Silverchair, > Seven Mary Three, The Flys, Stabbing Westward, Lush, Rancid, Pennywise, > White Zombie, Tool, Four Non Blondes, L7, Screaming Trees, Soundgarden, Our > Lady Peace, Dishwalla, Candlebox, and last - and least - in my book is Rage > Against the Machine... A bunch of rich California kids who've never had to > work a day in their life, preaching Maoist/Lenninist shite to the oblivious > masses. > > Reading that list I just wrote, besides making me nauseous, makes me aware > of just how bad American radio IS... > > Getting off my soapbox... > > Ray Ciscon > > In order to provide the best level of support, please contact: > The I.S. Support Center at extension 4357 > ** Every support call should begin with a call to the I. S. Support Center. > ** > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Roberts [mailto:jarobert@dmu.ac.uk] > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 10:31 AM > To: Vinylecho@aol.com > Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: American new wave. > > A lot of my mates listen to current American 'punk' bands. > I had the > misfortune to hear SmashMouth last night. This morning I > put on my > spanking new Subway Sect CD (well it's stuff recorded > between 77 and 80). > Is it just me or are these so-called new > 'punk' bands repetitive, dull, and worst of all tunefull? > What happened > to the punk 'spirit' of challenging conventions, being able > to record > stuff with out of tune instruments, not using conventional > beat combo, > singing out of tune etc etc. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:32:23 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: American new wave. Ray, I'm replying to your excellent piece & pretty much agree with everything you say.I've just hit 40 & certainly have (I hope) moved on from my schoolday/early teen bands like Led Zep,Yes,King Crimson,Gentle Giant,Todd Rundgren,Hawkwind.Then came 77 & it was then Wire,XTC,The Ramones,Television,Gang of Four.They are all still in my collection & I still listen to them.Now it,s Orbital,Underworld,lots of dance/trance too.This music is out there,certainly in Britain.It may not be a whole radio station,but maybe a 3 hour slot late at night,but it is there.Which makes an impression on me that the majority of younger people who actually listen to mainstream radio & like it, are really boring shits spoonfed on commercial manufactured slop.Getting off my soapbox,the one constant since 77 has been Wire & whether its Reuters,Another The Letter,Advantage in Height,Cruel When Complete, Boiling Boy or even Mzui (god bless'em) I listen & listen because they are innovative.See you at the RFH in February. Chriswire. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:33:24 -0600 From: "MackDaddyD" Subject: Re:rants I think you are too generous. IMHO Mr. Reznor treads ground already stolen from Cab Voltaire, TG and a dozen other Brits, by Chicago hometown boy Al Jorgenson. On another note, there was a spot on editorial item in the Onion a couple weeks back regarding racisim in american radio, especially *alternative* programming. Where program directors ignore rap and other black artists in favour of Limp Biskit (sp?) and Korn (again again). The author's premise was that the two aforementioned artists were actually Pat Boon with tatoos, peircings and bad manners. > Nine Inch Nails/Trent Reznor started his own 'genre' with a bunch of bands > that copied his sound so closely it was sometimes hard to tell... Gravity > Kills and Orgy are two NiN clones that come to mind... there are many more. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:30:27 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: American new wave. On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, John Roberts wrote: > Is it just me or are these so-called new > 'punk' bands repetitive, dull, and worst of all tunefull? What happened > to the punk 'spirit' of challenging conventions, being able to record > stuff with out of tune instruments, not using conventional beat combo, > singing out of tune etc etc. Given that it's twenty-plus years on, what happened to the things you mention is that they, too, became conventions. It's one thing to have a record whose instruments are out of tune and singing that's not in tune because, dammit, it just sounds better that way, the performance and energy justify the "imperfections" - but it's another thing entirely to, once you *can* tune your instruments and *can* sing in tune, intentionally play and sing out of tune just to pretend to be a punk-rock band circa '76. (Of course, I exempt bands that work with alternate tunings - they're not out of tune; they're in another tuning system entirely.) One of the joys of Wire throughout its career has been the way the bandmembers have been completely oblivious to what's in fashion: if they like something, they use it. Which is why it's somewhat ironic, and sometimes irritating, that so many on this list seem compelled to slag bands rather than talk about good bands. I mean, yeah, I love a well-deserved putdown as much as anyone - but bashing Korn is just a little too easy, isn't it? Back to the "punk" thing: I think it's amusing that somehow "tunefulness" has been written out of the punk agenda - given that any number of early punk bands, both British, American, and otherwise, were writing *songs* with certifiable melodies (whether or not their singers could negotiate them). In a musical environment dominated by pompous prog-rockers and their tuneless "suites" ont he one hand and disco's watered-down R&B blues scales on the other*, it was left to punk to combine melody, energy, and DIY to say: we do what we want. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::we make everything you need, and you need everything we make:: * Gross oversimplication to make a point... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:16:42 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: American new wave. >I do think a caveat needs to be added here -- this phenomena of >"alternative" guitar bands dominating a segment of US radio was fairly >short-lived, and peaked sometime in 1995-96, the years of Alice Silverchair >Mary Three Temple Bush in Chains. The stations who used to play all those >bands have tended to go back to "classic rock" or slide into a more "adult >alternative" format (the latter usually meaning more singer-songwritery) in >recent years. Yet more proof that Arkansas is a good half-decade behind the times, because my local alternative station is still in love with Nirvana (whom I like), Pearl Jam (about whom I can only say that the wrong Seattle grunge band's lead singer killed himself, though of course as a teen-ager in the '70s I had no use for Led Zep or any other proponents of heavy muddle ... though I *do* like a couple of PJ songs -- Better Man & Spin the Black Circle -- & even the cover of Last Kiss, not that it really compares to the original), & quite a few of the other bands you just referenced. As well as, of course, Limp Bizkit & their insipid ilk. Dan > >And looking over Ray's list, I find confirmation for my long-standing >theory that when people tell you they hate Pearl Jam or Nine Inch Nails, >two bands which I personally like fine, they're reacting less to the bands >themselves than to the horde of second-rate imitators which exploit the >former artists' commercial breakthroughs and then flood the airwaves. It's >Seven Mary Three and Filter that are *really* putting people off, IMO, >though the former bands can't help but get their feet caught in the sludge. > >later, > >Miles > > ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V3 #7 *****************************