From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #236 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, November 30 1999 Volume 02 : Number 236 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC [Aaron Mandel ] Fall in a Hole ["MackDaddyD" ] Justification. ["Casper Milquetoast" ] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] [none] [owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] Re: Justification. [Brian ] Re: Justification and don't take offense!! [Vinylecho@aol.com] Re: Justification. ["tube disaster" ] Re: Justification. [Wireviews ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 11:14:51 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, tube disaster wrote: > Dan, who'd like to see a Mekons tribute album *anyway*, & who wonders > if a Fall one exists other than the one done by various fans a couple > of years ago ... a guy i know was putting one together when Mark E., who had earlier drunkenly agreed to it, drunkenly threatened him with some sort of death if he went through with it. a few of those bands have put out their finished tracks independently (God Is My Co-Pilot's "Totally Wired", for instance). a ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:22:29 -0600 From: "MackDaddyD" Subject: Fall in a Hole > a guy i know was putting one together when Mark E., who had earlier > drunkenly agreed to it, drunkenly threatened him with some sort of death > if he went through with it. Aw, Say it ain't so ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:04:05 -0800 From: "Casper Milquetoast" Subject: Justification. I had just finished watching the video for Eardrum Buzz and I'm asking = myself what exactly happened to Wire in the years following Pink Flags = and Chairs Missing. I consider both albums to be incredably prolific and = profound musicly as well as conceptually, but anything past that dives = into the horrid realm of new wave to me. It could be that I'm 19 years = old and can only only comprehend the relevance of "punk rock." But I do = consider myself well versed in progressive forms of music today and = past. Maybe it is that I am unable to grasp new wave or get past my = disgust towards it. Who knows? But I cannot bring myself to listen to = the albums following two I meantioned earlier for the simple fact that I = have such respect for Wire as a musical force. I'm just curious of other = peoples opinions of this. Casper M. = www.skribe.net/milque ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:44:27 -0500 (EST) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] [212.111.132.3]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id NAA22324 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [212.111.145.53] (helo=oemcomputer) by retort.sout.netline.net.uk with smtp (Exim 2.12 #5) id 11ot59-0004bl-00 for idealcopy@smoe.org; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:48:27 +0000 Message-ID: <000201bf32bf$178ca9a0$35916fd4@oemcomputer> From: "noxious" To: Subject: Manscape Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:26:27 -0000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Hi - another first posting here, though I've been watching with interest for a few weeks. I'm another of the (apparent) minority concerning Manscape. Of the "second phase" albums, it's the one I listen to most and definitely repays repeated listenings in my opinion (though I liked it a lot pretty much from the off). Maybe I just like to be contrary, but my favourite album from the original phase is "Chairs Missing" which I hardly ever see name-checked when people discuss the band's early work (it seems to me to be a fairly even split between Pink Flag and 154 when people select their favourite). BobS ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:44:25 -0500 (EST) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] [204.127.131.42]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id NAA01354 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([12.67.18.75]) by mtiwmhc07.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19991121184044.VSCQ27893@default> for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:40:44 +0000 From: "tube disaster" To: "Ideal Copy Mailing list" Subject: the ideal copies? Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:33:22 -0800 Message-ID: <01bf3468$08e483a0$4b12430c@default> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk In talking about Wire with a co-worker the other day (I still think it's a miracle that a newspaper office in the middle of Arkansas includes at least one other person who at least knows who the band *is*, though our bonding mainly occurs over a shared fanaticism for The Fall), I mentioned seeing ads for the then-new Ideal Copy asserting that it marked the first-ever simultaneous release (appropriately enough, given its title), at least in the US, of any item on LP, CS, CD *and* DAT. Any idea if that claim was correct, or if I'm merely remembering something that never happened (as, alas, proves to be the case every now & then)? Nothing whatsoever against Enigma -- after all, they got all those great 2nd-incarnation releases into my hands in the late '80s & early '90s -- but somehow I don't think of them as big technological groundbreakers ... though that was probably more Mute's role, of course. Dan Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:56:11 -0500 (EST) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] [207.69.200.246]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-jane) with ESMTP id HAA12201 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from hugh ([209.138.229.140]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA31347 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:30:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000201bf3a65$80e89fa0$8ce58ad1@hugh> Reply-To: "charles / wmo" From: "charles / wmo" To: Subject: Credit Card Orders Shippped! Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:29:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone: We recieved our POS-Partner software on Friday and spent all weekend fufilling all the Credit Card orders from the web site. This enables us to appr*ve and batch the transactions to our Merchant account. Please thank Bank Of America for the delay. Everything will be mailed out by today! I'd like to offer my sincerest apology for the delay. Thanks again for all your orders! thanks again for your support, charles wmo@interserv.com http://wiremailorder.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:08:01 -0500 (EST) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id XP5YNGAX; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:45:52 -0800 To: idealcopy@smoe.org From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: Mute Reissues Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:45:42 -0800 Message-ID: <991124214542.840.12f07.7107@achika.wrq.com.2FD5A8BC4802CC88> In-Reply-To: "flaherty michael w's" message of "Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:25:34 -0600" X-Mailer: WRQ Reflection Mail Version 6.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk >I'll admit that IF they're as good as the two new tracks on Colin's A-Z>reissue (which I finally broke down and bought) it would be worth it. > Sorry if this has been hashed to death in previous posts, but I didn't hear about the A-Z reissue. What's on this disc? And, where did you g*t it? - -Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:07:59 -0500 (EST) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] 1.3.167) for idealcopy@smoe.org; 17 Nov 1999 10:19:46 -0500 Received: from osfn.org ([daticon.com]) by 192.168.166.21 ( IA Mail Server Version: 2.2.1 Build: 2040 ) ) ; 17 Nov 99 15:14:35 UT Message-ID: <3832C671.44919894@osfn.org> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:14:57 -0500 From: Sergey Kazachenko X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Mansacape Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk I remember listening to Manscape for the first time and the only song that I could remember was "Torch it!" I thought and still do think it sounds a lot like some PIL songs. Second one was "Small Black Reptile". Over time it just grows on you, but you don't actually remember the song titles, it's more of a long soundtrack (except maybe for "Patterns of behaviour"). As for "You hung your lights", I don't even remember how it sounds, because it's the last track on the CD and I usually fall asleep before it starts :) - -- Sergey Kazachenko sergey@belmusic.hypermart.net Belarusan Music Source - http://belmusic.hypermart.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:35:04 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Justification. I say I say sun you say you don't like 154 maybe all that genetic engineering is a catching up to you boy. I say you should go back and get some education boy. Casper Milquetoast wrote: > I had just finished watching the video for Eardrum Buzz and I'm asking = > myself what exactly happened to Wire in the years following Pink Flags = > and Chairs Missing. I consider both albums to be incredably prolific and = > profound musicly as well as conceptually, but anything past that dives = > into the horrid realm of new wave to me. It could be that I'm 19 years = > old and can only only comprehend the relevance of "punk rock." But I do = > consider myself well versed in progressive forms of music today and = > past. Maybe it is that I am unable to grasp new wave or get past my = > disgust towards it. Who knows? But I cannot bring myself to listen to = > the albums following two I meantioned earlier for the simple fact that I = > have such respect for Wire as a musical force. I'm just curious of other = > peoples opinions of this. > > Casper M. = > www.skribe.net/milque ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:40:32 EST From: Vinylecho@aol.com Subject: Re: Justification and don't take offense!! Hey, << I had just finished watching the video for Eardrum Buzz and I'm asking = myself what exactly happened to Wire in the years following Pink Flags = and Chairs Missing. I consider both albums to be incredably prolific and = profound musicly as well as conceptually, but anything past that dives = into the horrid realm of new wave to me.>>>> I agree except give 154 a chance they push new wave to far realms with their ambient soundcape and goth-crasher epics and there are maybe 1-2 perfect new wave pop tunes within this very NEW wave album .... >>> It could be that I'm 19 years = old and can only only comprehend the relevance of "punk rock.">>>> Not to sound snotty though I will I agree that Chairs Missing and Pink Flag were VERY important I mean in the United States (i.e. around 1977/1978) no one had a clue and if you think of the punk scene in America then (television, ramones) they all sound so dated now where as Wire were so ahead of their time ... the anti-image look along with the fast 50 second rompers they performed in 77 was fresh cuz no one else did it. As well "12XU" is a *punk* classic --- without it DC (dischord ...) would have never found its punk/hardcore roots. Influential as sin I say! >>>> But I do = consider myself well versed in progressive forms of music today and =past. Maybe it is that I am unable to grasp new wave or get past my = disgust towards it. Who knows?>>>> The first two albums made them the most influential punk band in britain right up there with the Fall and X-Ray Spex .... I understand your disgust towards bad new wave which is another thing but you are right the genuis of the first 2 albums by Wire is so clear ... I mean who else then sang in the stacatto sped up sneer that Colin emphasized to such great effect along with the precision punk guitar fury of Gilbert! Who else then would have the guts to have a 28 second song (Field Day for the Sundays) with a fake ending?!?!?!?!?!? Another band who are seminal are the Fall. Again take no offense but Sonic Youth, Guided by Voices, and Pavement all the American pretenders should listen to the masters of true schizoid punk rock the Fall becasue NO ONE else did that messy sound before them! Off to bed! later Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:33:20 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Justification. >I had just finished watching the video for Eardrum Buzz and I'm asking = >myself what exactly happened to Wire in the years following Pink Flags = >and Chairs Missing. I consider both albums to be incredably prolific and = >profound musicly as well as conceptually, but anything past that dives = >into the horrid realm of new wave to me. It could be that I'm 19 years = >old and can only only comprehend the relevance of "punk rock." But I do = >consider myself well versed in progressive forms of music today and = >past. Maybe it is that I am unable to grasp new wave or get past my = >disgust towards it. Who knows? But I cannot bring myself to listen to = >the albums following two I meantioned earlier for the simple fact that I = >have such respect for Wire as a musical force. I'm just curious of other = >peoples opinions of this. > >Casper M. = Dunno. For more than a decade, I considered 154 a couple of notches below (which is to say, extremely good but not great) Pink Flag & Chairs Missing ... these days, I consider them all equally but differently brilliant. Similarly, for years I was quite lukewarm toward the 2nd-incarnation stuff after Snakedrill failed to blow me away & Ideal Copy did(n't) the same (except for Ahead, which was instantly recognizable as a towering dance-floor classic) -- to the extent that I didn't buy A Bell is a Cup & IBTABA until around '91, when the vinyl showed up in the local cutout bins, & Manscape & The First Letter a bit after that, at my used store of choice. (Luckily, purely out of band loyalty I'd gone ahead & bought the promo copies of the Ahead, Snake Skin Paws & Kidney Bingos 12"s when they showed up circa '87-'88.) Bell proved interesting enough, if less than earth-shaking, & of it all I probably found The First Letter the most interesting. And then, somehow, within the last few months virtually *all* of it's fallen into place for me, from Snakedrill (how in *hell* did I managed to avoid being leveled by A Serious of Snakes back then?) on. Listening to the tracks from slightly different angles, as it were, courtesy of Coatings helped open my ears a bit, I think. Still & all, I've never had a problem with New Wave or anything else keyboard- or dance-oriented ... one can't really help what one intrinsically likes & what one doesn't, I suppose (just like nothing was going to make me like Snakedrill in '86, apparently), but if some innate tendency has landed you in the when-there's-no-future-how-can-there-be-synthesizers punk-stereotype ghetto, the fact is that if you have any intelligence & open-mindedness at all you're likely to outgrow it, & fairly soon at that. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:27:53 -0800 (PST) From: Wireviews Subject: Re: Justification. > >I had just finished watching the video for Eardrum > Buzz and I'm asking = > >myself what exactly happened to Wire in the years > following Pink Flags = > >and Chairs Missing. They adanced, they changed, they grew, and they innovated. There are quite a few people who only like Pink Flag / Chairs Missing / 154 and view anything from the 80s / post Bell / post IBTABA / post Manscape (take your pick) to be rubbish. However, imagine if Wire had become just another punk band and attempted to duplicate Pink Flag ten times, or even worse, tried to duplicate the 70s in the 80s. We almost certainly wouldn't be on a list discussing them now as they'd have had far less longevity! This is why RFH slightly worries me - I really hope it'll mainly be new stuff or suitably mangled "classics". However, I think Wire _did_ have problems in the 80s, one of which became apparent with IBTABA - there had been no real leap during the last three releases (unlike PF -> CM -> 154, for instance), but this was almost certainly rectified with Drill, Manscape and First Letter. The other problem was production. Apart from Ideal Copy, and probably IBTABA, the 80s/90s releases have not been produced very well at all - especially First Letter which really wants to be hard-hitting and punchy but is mostly a little too slick. Having said that, it still remains my favorite Wir(e) album, along with 154! Also, the 80s came after a period of massive diversification for Wire. In 1977 they were a "band" - - perhaps they would claim to be a bunch of "artists", but the band mentality was obviously there. However, the early 80s saw a plethora of solo projects, so by the time Snakedrill came they really were four solo artists attempting to make some sort of noise together. This continued throughout the remainder of Wir(e) as Bruce and Colin released their self named projects (along with Colin gaining production experience) and Graham releasing He Said. If Wire do compose new material now, this diversification should be more telling still. After all, the 80s saw Colin and Graham doing a kind of twisted pop in their solo work, and only Bruce doing experimental noise. However, now we see Colin veering from Ambient noisescapes to post-rock / dance hybrids, Graham with the atmospheric rumbling HSO projects, and Bruce ... well, Bruce is still attacking people's ears!! And, of course, Robert is finally going to play live drums again. It's going to be an interesting evening ... Craig / WV ===== >>> Craig Grannell / Wireviews >>> Visit Wireviews at: http://welcome.to/wireviews http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html >>> wireviews@yahoo.com >>> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #236 *******************************