From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #231 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, November 25 1999 Volume 02 : Number 231 Today's Subjects: ----------------- hey hey ebay [paul.rabjohn@ssab.com] Re: social comment [Max Schmid ] Re: social comment [John Roberts ] Re: social comment [John Roberts ] Re: social comment ["Stephen Jackson" ] Manscape Lyrics [flaherty michael w ] Mute Reissues [flaherty michael w ] Magazine et al. ["Stephen Jackson" ] Re: Manscape Lyrics ["Stephen Jackson" ] Re: Magazine et al. [rivethed@slip.net] Re: Magazine et al. [Geoffry ] Re: Mute Reissues [Brian ] Re: Magazine et al. ["nmm" ] Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC [Vinylecho@aol.com] Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC ["tube disaster" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:48:19 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com Subject: hey hey ebay someone is trying to get $52 for an autographed copy of pink flag. a trifle optimistic i thought but he'd had 13 bids (none of them from me i might add). mind you it would be nice to have the whole band autograph something , maybe i'll shove a cd in my pocket at the fh gig just in case......p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:56:09 -0500 From: Max Schmid Subject: Re: social comment At 04:30 AM 11/24/99 -0500, folks wrote: >I'm not sure if I agree that 'Manscape' is filled with 'dated' social >commentary. In fact, I can only remember one or two songs that could be >possibly interpreted as explicitly political -- maybe 'stampede' and, >stretching it, 'life in the manscape'. Where are all these 'dated' references? >From: paul.rabjohn@ssab.com >Subject: Re[2]: social comment > >isn't torch it about burning down the houses of parliament? i always thought "children of groceries" was a comment on england being a nation of shopkeepers ie a dig at thatcherism/materialism. i think like a lot of the 90's wire lyrics there's a general current of dissatisfaction at the politics of the time , though mostly far more oblique than , say , torch it which is about as blunt a comment as you'd get.p I revisited Manscape last year around the time WBAI moved to Wall Street. If "The Morning Bell" isn't about the Stock Market, it might as well be. I see these folks every morning on my way home, and there's nothing dated about those lyrics. The Morning Bell Proves the distance To be another optical conclusion That you can buy shares in ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:16:00 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: social comment > One of may fave Magazine songs went from > I know that Carter will look after me to > I know that Reagan will look after me > > > Social comment dates so fast and > > more importantly, has nothing to do with music. > Ah. Model Worker. Correct Use of Soap and Play. How is it that Magazine always come up on this list? And when do we get a Magazine reunion? Perhaps Colin, Graham et al ought to get on the phone. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:50:07 +0000 (GMT) From: John Roberts Subject: Re: social comment Oh no what have I started. > I'm not sure if I agree that 'Manscape' is filled with 'dated' social > commentary. In fact, I can only remember one or two songs that could be > possibly interpreted as explicitly political -- maybe 'stampede' and, > stretching it, 'life in the manscape'. Where are all these 'dated' references? I think I'm right in saying that the original comments that were made referred to the quality of Graham's lyrics. I was just making an observation that I don't generally like Graham's songs. For eg. I have never got into He Said and I *hate* Torch It. Don't get me wrong, I do like some of his stuff but generally pre-split stuff. Life in the Manscape as social commentary is extremely naive - it sounds more like Paul Weller at the peak of his preaching days than Wire to me. > > Besides, even if a work does contain social commentary, does it really render > the work unendurable? Isn't ABIACUIIS a scathing critique of Thatcherism? > First point. No. SOme of my favourite tracks could be construed as 'social commentary'. I mean I saw Stiff LIttle Fingers in Leicester last night and with the situation in Ireland as it is there is obviously a certain frission with regard to what Jake Burns has to say about the situation. And there always has. And one of my all time favourite bands are Crass who just about take social commentary to its extreme. Second point. Is ABIACUIIS a 'scathing critique of Thatcherism'? I don't want to get involved in huge debates about textual analysis but if you're able to provide comments from Foucault then I would expect that you are familiar with the notion of polysemy. I think I'm right in saying that in the Kevin Eden book there are 'explainations' as to what the songs are 'about' and there are references to the songs of this period eg KBingos as being such critiques. Which is fine. But songs (texts) mean what they mean to the people who listen to them as well as what they mean to the person who wrote them. (And I better say here that if I woke up tommorrow and heard that Thatcher was dead I be a very happy man. I am certainly not a Tory. And please let's not start discussing party politics over the list.) Third point. The whole idea of Wire as an 'avant-garde' arty punk band which appealed and still oddly enough appeals to me is a very outdated modernist perspective, a hangover from their Marcel Duchamp 'infatuation'. It too is - for a lot of critics - unendurable. (Even if not applicable to Robert who seems to have an even more out of date pov that Wire are a rock band.) So you can't win either way really. At the end of the day who can say precisely why it is they do or don't like something? Why is it that we're all here - we all find something endurable in Wire - but evidently not the same things. The fact of the matter is that if Graham's lyrics are groovy for you then so be it! I'm just glad that this space exists for us to have these discussions because as you all probably know, Wire fans are in fact few and far between. (or is it just Leicester?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:30:12 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: social comment > One of may fave Magazine songs went from > I know that Carter will look after me to > I know that Reagan will look after me Funnily enough, although it sounds like that on "The Correct Use.." and he definitely says Reagan on "Play" according to Devoto's book, the lyric is "I'm not too worried by hegemony, I know the *cadre* will look after me..... Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Two steps forward, six steps back. - ----- Original Message ----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:15:38 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Manscape Lyrics > I'm not sure if I agree that 'Manscape' is filled with 'dated' social > commentary. In fact, I can only remember one or two songs that could be > possibly interpreted as explicitly political -- maybe 'stampede' and, > stretching it, 'life in the manscape'. Where are all these 'dated' references? > > Besides, even if a work does contain social commentary, does it really render > the work unendurable? Isn't ABIACUIIS a scathing critique of Thatcherism? > > "lyric don't really mean anything" C. Newman > "everything is political" M. Foucault > g. I agree with you: I always knew there were social "overtones" to the lyrics, but I never heard them as being overly direct. I don't really care that much--they work with the music for me. > > > "Cambra, Robert" wrote: > > > I have to agree with John Roberts here. Social comment dates so fast and > > more importantly, has nothing to do with music. One of the great things > > about Wire I've always thought was that their concerns were usually > > enduring. Here I would have to ask what Graham said that's no longer interesting/enduring. I tend to listen to lyrics as part of the overall sound, so I may be missing a great deal that people don't like here. I just think their imagary is very strong, and that's why I like them. > isn't torch it about burning down the houses of parliament? i always thought "children of groceries" was a comment on england being a nation of shopkeepers ie a dig at thatcherism/materialism. i think like a lot of the 90's wire lyrics there's a general current of dissatisfaction at the politics of the time , though mostly far more oblique than , say , torch it which is about as blunt a comment as you'd get.p "What time is it on your planet?"--maybe it should be "in your country." I'm guessing some of this difference in perception we're having may be based on where one is from--while I'm interested in what's happening in the world, I won't pretend, for example, that I followed Thatcher polotics in detail. So to me, it was all just surreal images of burning houses etc. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:25:34 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Mute Reissues > From: John Roberts > I suspect that they will be made available at mid-price? i.e. slightly > cheaper than you would normally pay for them. Many Wire albums are out of print in the US. Granted, we can get them fairly easily, but they're quite expensive (compared to most releases), so I do think price has something to do with this. > From: Wireviews > > As for bonus tracks - I would have thought Coatings > furnished us with the best of these and anyway, Ideal > / Bell / IBTABA / Drill / Manscape / First Letter all > had bonus tracks on the CD releases the first time > round, most notably Ideal whose length was doubled by > them! Yes, and if there is more material (I suspect there's not much), I'd rather have a Behind the Curtain II or Coatings II than bonus tracks. Same with live albums. To tell you the truth, I don't particularly want to rebuy my entire Wire collection just for a new song or two--although I'll admit that IF they're as good as the two new tracks on Colin's A-Z reissue (which I finally broke down and bought) it would be worth it. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:04:07 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Magazine et al. Someone mentioned how Magazine kept cropping up on this list. Strange, but during my year and a bit on this list, my 2 other (than Wire) favourite bands "of all time/the Millennium" (delete as appropriate) keep cropping up, despite me. XTC have had a few mentions as well as Magazine. Perhaps it's not so surprising as all three bands (IMO) were the best of the crop of the so-called "New Wave"...and all 3 share excellent lyric writers in Devoto, Lewis/Newman/Gilbert, Partridge/Moulding respectively. Both XTC and Wire have a vaguely psychedelic edge to their music....it would have been interesting if John Leckie had worked with Wire Other links....Devoto and Adamson have appeared in a Wire video. Wire supported XTC in the 70's. Dave Gregory (XTC guitarist from 1979-1998) told me that he owns Pink Flag and "likes it a lot".... There is no point to any of the above. Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Two steps forward, six steps back. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:09:04 -0000 From: "Stephen Jackson" Subject: Re: Manscape Lyrics > > isn't torch it about burning down the houses of parliament? i always > thought "children of groceries" was a comment on england being a nation of > shopkeepers ie a dig at thatcherism/materialism. > i think like a lot of the 90's wire lyrics there's a general current of > dissatisfaction at the politics of the time , though mostly far more > oblique than , say , torch it which is about as blunt a comment as you'd get.p Hmmmm. I always thought of "Torch It!" as simply a love/hate song, one step closer to oblivion as "I Should Have Known Better"......I've never considered it to have political tones, other than than personal ones. Steve. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Two steps forward, six steps back. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:29:00 -0800 From: rivethed@slip.net Subject: Re: Magazine et al. Hi, Does anyone know of a Magazine or perhaps Howard Devoto site on the internet? t0m Stephen Jackson wrote: > Someone mentioned how Magazine kept cropping up on this list. Strange, but > during my year and a bit on this list, my 2 other (than Wire) favourite > bands "of all time/the Millennium" (delete as appropriate) keep cropping up, > despite me. XTC have had a few mentions as well as Magazine. Perhaps it's > not so surprising as all three bands (IMO) were the best of the crop of the > so-called "New Wave"...and all 3 share excellent lyric writers in Devoto, > Lewis/Newman/Gilbert, Partridge/Moulding respectively. Both XTC and Wire > have a vaguely psychedelic edge to their music....it would have been > interesting if John Leckie had worked with Wire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 21:29:51 -0500 From: Geoffry Subject: Re: Magazine et al. clam up/calm down cf. http://www.whom.co.uk/magazine/ rivethed@slip.net wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know of a Magazine or perhaps Howard Devoto site on the internet? > > t0m > > Stephen Jackson wrote: > > > Someone mentioned how Magazine kept cropping up on this list. Strange, but > > during my year and a bit on this list, my 2 other (than Wire) favourite > > bands "of all time/the Millennium" (delete as appropriate) keep cropping up, > > despite me. XTC have had a few mentions as well as Magazine. Perhaps it's > > not so surprising as all three bands (IMO) were the best of the crop of the > > so-called "New Wave"...and all 3 share excellent lyric writers in Devoto, > > Lewis/Newman/Gilbert, Partridge/Moulding respectively. Both XTC and Wire > > have a vaguely psychedelic edge to their music....it would have been > > interesting if John Leckie had worked with Wire ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:44:40 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Mute Reissues As I have mentioned previously, the first three japanese cd reissues of Pink Flag 38 tracks, Chairs Missing 28 tracks, 154 24 tracks @ about $20.00 each are adorable. flaherty michael w wrote: > > From: John Roberts > > I suspect that they will be made available at mid-price? i.e. slightly > > cheaper than you would normally pay for them. > > Many Wire albums are out of print in the US. Granted, we can get them > fairly easily, but they're quite expensive (compared to most releases), so > I do think price has something to do with this. > > > From: Wireviews > > > > As for bonus tracks - I would have thought Coatings > > furnished us with the best of these and anyway, Ideal > > / Bell / IBTABA / Drill / Manscape / First Letter all > > had bonus tracks on the CD releases the first time > > round, most notably Ideal whose length was doubled by > > them! > > Yes, and if there is more material (I suspect there's not much), I'd > rather have a Behind the Curtain II or Coatings II than bonus tracks. > Same with live albums. To tell you the truth, I don't particularly want > to rebuy my entire Wire collection just for a new song or two--although > I'll admit that IF they're as good as the two new tracks on Colin's A-Z > reissue (which I finally broke down and bought) it would be worth it. > > Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 1999 22:49:34 +0000 From: "nmm" Subject: Re: Magazine et al. I've noticed Magzine being mentioned a few times- but was wondering; Was anybody on this list at the show where Wire opened for The Stranglers? Colin still seemed to cringe when that band was mentioned. - --------------------------------------------------------- http://www.aracnet.net/~voxman Home of the Farfisa Organ - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 00:24:23 EST From: Vinylecho@aol.com Subject: Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC Hey, I was just listening to Go 2 by XTC the other day and it kicks BUTT. XTC were so brilliant in their day (roughly 1977-1982) they did some killer wacky angular punk that reminds me a lot arty punk from DC (Dischord) and the northwest scene (K, Kill Rock Stars). From the frenetic "Meccanic Dancing" to the insanely new wave/no wave "I am the Audience" Go 2 is just a rollercoaster new wave/punk pop ride. Sorry to emphasize a non-psychedelic XTC album but I love their wacky punk period. As for Wire I would love to see a proper tribute album for them because XTC already have one (which SUCKS) and I feel Wire deserve one. cheers Jay ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 00:45:21 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC >Hey, > >I was just listening to Go 2 by XTC the other day and it kicks BUTT. XTC were >so brilliant in their day (roughly 1977-1982) they did some killer wacky >angular punk that reminds me a lot arty punk from DC (Dischord) and the >northwest scene (K, Kill Rock Stars). From the frenetic "Meccanic Dancing" to >the insanely new wave/no wave "I am the Audience" Go 2 is just a >rollercoaster new wave/punk pop ride. > >Sorry to emphasize a non-psychedelic XTC album but I love their wacky punk >period. Go 2 is easily my favorite XTC album ... heck, not too long after that I stopped keeping track of them, & a couple of singles & B-sides collections are all I own of theirs after Black Sea. (I had to look twice to see which list I was responding to here, because the sentiments expressed above almost completely track a post a couple of days ago on the Big Takeover.) >As for Wire I would love to see a proper tribute album for them >because XTC already have one (which SUCKS) and I feel Wire deserve one. Whore's pretty "proper," isn't it? It's not something I ever get down & listen to, but that's just because I've never been big on tribute albums per se -- it's a better-than-average example of the subgenre, as far as I can tell. Dan, who'd like to see a Mekons tribute album *anyway*, & who wonders if a Fall one exists other than the one done by various fans a couple of years ago ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:06:33 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Magazine et al. and now XTC But wait, no Punishment of Luxury ? tube disaster wrote: > >Hey, > > > >I was just listening to Go 2 by XTC the other day and it kicks BUTT. XTC > were > >so brilliant in their day (roughly 1977-1982) they did some killer wacky > >angular punk that reminds me a lot arty punk from DC (Dischord) and the > >northwest scene (K, Kill Rock Stars). From the frenetic "Meccanic Dancing" > to > >the insanely new wave/no wave "I am the Audience" Go 2 is just a > >rollercoaster new wave/punk pop ride. > > > >Sorry to emphasize a non-psychedelic XTC album but I love their wacky punk > >period. > > Go 2 is easily my favorite XTC album ... heck, not too long after that I > stopped keeping track of them, & a couple of singles & B-sides collections > are all I own of theirs after Black Sea. (I had to look twice to see which > list I was responding to here, because the sentiments expressed above almost > completely track a post a couple of days ago on the Big Takeover.) > > >As for Wire I would love to see a proper tribute album for them > >because XTC already have one (which SUCKS) and I feel Wire deserve one. > > Whore's pretty "proper," isn't it? It's not something I ever get down & > listen to, but that's just because I've never been big on tribute albums per > se -- it's a better-than-average example of the subgenre, as far as I can > tell. > > Dan, who'd like to see a Mekons tribute album *anyway*, & who wonders if a > Fall one exists other than the one done by various fans a couple of years > ago ... ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #231 *******************************