From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #63 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, March 17 1999 Volume 02 : Number 063 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Wet and Wimpy ["Wilson, Paul" ] admitting... [KB305@aol.com] re: admitting... ["Jack Steinmann" ] uncut [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re: Wet and Wimpy ["tube disaster" ] Re: uncut ["Mack" ] Re: uncut ["tube disaster" ] Re: Wire Politics ["Uri Baran" ] Re: Wire Politics ["Uri Baran" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #60 ["Uri Baran" ] Re: Wire Politics ["Uri Baran" ] Re: to drum or not to drum [Craig Grannell ] Re:A-Z [auteur@ix.netcom.com] re: re: to drum or not to drum [2] [Craig Grannell ] Re[2]: uncut [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re: admitting... [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re[3]: to drum or not to drum [2] [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:25:44 -0000 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: Re: Wet and Wimpy Well I must be the real odd one out here. The first Wire record I bought was Chairs Missing (when it came out). It was so good that I bought Pink Flag the following week. I was disappointed, to say the least, although I have grown to like much of it since. But Chairs Missing is the ultimate Wire album for me. I thought 154 was the perfect progression and I probably listen to that one more than any other now. I actually like Manscape but have never managed to get into The First Letter. Maybe after all these people have been giving it high praise, I'll go back and listen some more. So there you go. My top five Wire albums are, in order: Chairs Missing 154 Manscape Coatings IBTABA Thanks for the info about where the Spigel/Newman live CD tracks came from. I hadn't realised he'd done so much stuff! I've only got the first five albums he did. By the way A-Z is up there with Chairs Missing! Is there a CD version available? My vinyl copy is wearing away! Paul K W ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:34:05 EST From: KB305@aol.com Subject: admitting... << Is there anyone who likes the later Wire better who heard the early Wire when it was made, but wasn't particularly impressed? My guess is that there aren't many. >> Perhaps not many, but I'm one. I heard Pink Flag when it came out, and didn't get it. I heard A Bell Is A Cup when it came out, and fell in love with it. Went backwards to Ideal Copy, which I learned to love quickly. Went forward with IBTABA, Manscape, First Letter, etc., and loved them all. Occasionally I'll buy a copy of On Returning or 154 or something in a used CD store, take it home, put it on, and sit there dumb through a few tracks, and then take it off. I still don't get it. Bought This Way, (all 3) He Saids, Ab Ovo, In Esse, A-Z, etc., and liked most of them, but I still can't get the hang of pre-Ideal Copy Wire. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 16 Mar 99 09:15:38 -0600 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: re: admitting... Reply to: re: admitting... I bought each Wire album (and single) as it came out, and it was pretty exciting to watch the work evolve. If I had to rank Wire's entire LP output from most engaging to least, I would cross back and forth between periods: 1) 154 2) Chairs Missing 3) A Bell is a Cup 4) Manscape 5) Snakedrill 6) Pink Flag 7) The First Letter 8) Pink Flag 9) The Ideal Copy 10) IBTABA 11) Document and Eyewitness 12) The Drill Certain Wire albums "hang together" better than others. (The Manscape CD loses out to the LP in this regard.) I give Mike Thorne and Colin Newman a lot of credit -- probably incorrectly -- for the sequencing of the first three albums. The Ideal Copy sounds like singles and B-sides jammed together until the last two songs. Jack On 3/16/99, KB305 wrote: << Is there anyone who likes the later Wire better who heard the early Wire when it was made, but wasn't particularly impressed? My guess is that there aren't many. >> Perhaps not many, but I'm one. I heard Pink Flag when it came out, and didn't get it. I heard A Bell Is A Cup when it came out, and fell in love with it. Went backwards to Ideal Copy, which I learned to love quickly. Went forward with IBTABA, Manscape, First Letter, etc., and loved them all. Occasionally I'll buy a copy of On Returning or 154 or something in a used CD store, take it home, put it on, and sit there dumb through a few tracks, and then take it off. I still don't get it. Bought This Way, (all 3) He Saids, Ab Ovo, In Esse, A-Z, etc., and liked most of them, but I still can't get the hang of pre-Ideal Copy Wire. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:35:32 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: uncut well i went into a newsagent and read the 154 review this morniing. not bad really , 2-page feature and a nice picture. also a free cd for your £3 including map ref. not a bad magazine , i prefer q but its quite well done. it says 154 will be re-issued this summer to mark 30 years of harvest records (was there another half decent act on that label?). that'll be 3 times then , wonder what they'll do to try and get us all to buy it again? (bonus live disc? enhanced cd with video footage? i doubt it) i just thought what'd be good. a 154 screen saver with all the coloured bits appearing one by one. anyone know a friendly nerd who could do one for us (don't look at me , i'm useless).p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:29:16 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Wet and Wimpy > >By the way A-Z is up there with Chairs Missing! Is there a CD version >available? My vinyl copy is wearing away! > >Paul K W I regard A-Z as a great album myself, very much worthy of being mentioned alongside my personal holy trinity of Pink Flag, Chairs Missing & 154. Dunno if a CD is available *now*, but one came out a few years ago on the Restless label with the non-LP single sides Classic Remains, Alone on Piano & This Picture appended, along with demo versions of Not Me & Don't Bring Reminders. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:32:09 -0600 From: "Mack" Subject: Re: uncut ... harvest records (was there another half decent act on that label?). be-bop deluxe? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:09:21 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: uncut >... harvest records (was there another half decent act on that label?). > >be-bop deluxe? > > The Saints Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:45:41 -0800 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: Wire Politics Hi John, So it seems to be the conspiracy theory as far as Rob's concerned. Having said that, I did read that Bruce had said that if Wire reformed Rob would have to be there so maybe he wasn't a main conspirator. But he could also have meant that if Wir reformed then he wouldn't have to be there! :) Uri >Uri= > At the Club Lingere gig in Hollywood (years ago,alas)the tension between >Robert and the others was palpable. At the end of the set Robert actually >stormed off the stage and left the others standing with what I thought were >rather nasty schoolboy smirks. The show was quite good and everyone was very >nice about letting me tape it:I've often wondered what the problem was. I >know that when I heard the first WIR stuff I felt that a defining aspect of >the band had gone. > cheers, >johnc >----- Original Message ----- >From: Uri Baran >To: >Sent: Saturday, March 13, 1999 1:14 PM >Subject: Wire Politics > > >>I can remember this list discussing most Wire things except internal >>politics. This could get quite contentious but it could also be very >>informative and insightful so here goes.... >> >>I reckon that the music and behaviour of the group is much influenced by >>their relationships with each other for example, from what I've read >>(extrapolating suitably),it seems as though there is quite a tension >between >>Colin and Graham. Could this be because Graham's material has tended to >>focus on his singing and bass playing whereas Colin has perhaps focused on >>his vocals and own guitar? Shades of competition perhaps? >> >>Certainly there seems to be a better rapport between Bruce and Colin. >> >>I can also find very little concrete evidence about why Robert left. I >>personally believe that he was edged out in a manner that wasn't totally >>accidental but who were the main culprits and why? >> >> >>If we keep this to opinions based on material that is only available in the >>public domain, we may stay on the rightside of things failing that, this >>could get very interesting.... >> >> >> >> Uri >> >> >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:52:36 -0800 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: Wire Politics Craig, In my opinion, when you have a drummer (and a good one), you don't need to play around with computerised drums - what's the point? Perhaps you do if you don't want your drummer to stay. Uri - -----Original Message----- From: Craig Grannell To: idealcopy@smoe.org Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Wire Politics >> I can also find very little concrete evidence about why Robert left. I >> personally believe that he was edged out in a manner that wasn't >totally >> accidental but who were the main culprits and why? >> > >Despite the occasional sound loop experiment and Thorne's synths most >of Wire's 70s output was made up of live playing, even if those live >takes were overdubbed. In the 80s, and even more so in the 90s, there >was a reliance / penchant for computer technology and sampling. >Robert was only ever playing the drums on the live gigs. When the >live output was built from samples / tapes etc, Robert became fairly >redundant. Mind you, there have been some perfectly good examples of >synth oriented bands playing with live drums. The last two Bowie >albums had his drummer playing live, augmenting drum loops he'd >programmed himself, and I'm sure Depeche Mode had live drumming a few >years back. > >== >---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- >www: >SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk >Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html >---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- >"Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" >--------------------------------------------------------- >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:03:02 -0800 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #60 Some great points, there's also a track on 154 whose name escapes me where both Colin and Graham are singing different lyrics at the same time. It works wonderfully but did it stem from artistic/egotistic competition or just inspired songwriting? Uri PS CanI disagree about Manscape? >--- > >Uri makes an interesting point about the internal politics of the band. >The rivalry between Graham and Colin was nicely played up in the >`Eardrum Buzz' video, in which they are seen trying to nudge each other >from centre stage. Graham and Bruce also conspire to go off and have a >curry together, on Bruce's credit card. >This issue also comes up in the current number of `Uncut' magazine, >which contains a `great albums of our time feature' on `154' (`Map Ref' >is on the accompanying free CD). Colin has been interviewed for the >piece (the accompanying photo, in a triumph of picture research, is of >Bruce) and talks of his deliberate attempts to piss Graham off by >playing tunes over `I should've known better', and of Graham's >reciprocal attmept to `noise up' `On returning'. (I left my copy of the >mag on a train so I'm working from memory: the feature as a whole isn't >great, but there is a good accompanying photo c. 1979, and the CD isn't >bad) >The rivalry has probably always been there - didn't Colin wind up Graham >until he snapped on their very first encounter? (see Kevin's book). > >There is obviously a thin line between creative tension and a damaging >clash of egos. I wonder if this line got crossed some time in 91/92? >If so I wish they'd get over it - the whole is greater than the sum of >the parts, methinks. And `The First Letter', as has recently been >widely agreed on this list, is so bloody good that it is tragic that it >hasn't been followed up. While I'm on, can I also stick up for >Manscape, another of my favourites? > >Howard > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:12:22 -0800 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: Wire Politics I always thought that it was the 'art' that mattered and the music took a varying percentage of that. In fact, the first split followed some seriously 'arty' events and directions and the last split did the same. Uri mmm , interesting question. i remember in kevin's book you got the sense some of the recording sessions weren't all that happy , particularly for colin. i always saw it as a colin vs bruce/graham thing with rob always sidelined. things like the separate writing credits after pink flag probably reflect this too. between the lines , maybe colin just wanted to do the music in his own way so hence a solo career. funny thing was that on the later albums like manscape/first letter they seem musically more "as one" than ever , with colin and graham doing a lot of "duets" on the vocals. also , unlike so many other long-term bands , i never seem to see wire whinging on about money.it really did sound like it was the music that matterred to them.p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:42:07 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: to drum or not to drum - ---Uri Baran wrote: > In my opinion, when you have a drummer (and a good one), you don't need to > play> around with computerised drums - what's the point? Perhaps you do if you> don't want your > drummer to stay. > Kind of an odd point. That's kind of like saying you don't need an electric guitar (or sampling) if you've got a decent acoustic guitarist!! Computerised drums can do things that "real" drummers can't. Of course, the opposite is also true (cpu drums tend to be quite flat, it's often difficult to place emphasis on stuff). That's why I liked the Bowie method. his drummer sampled loops that he couldn't play live (ie: 160bpm Jungle tracks that go on for several minutes) and then augmented them. Another point is simply to do with 'sound'. In the same way that synths sound different to keyboards and pianos and ac guitars sound different to electric, so do drum machines / loops sound different to real drums. It depends on the style / type of music and desired affect to what one should use. To take a recent example I think Bastard would sound a lot worse with real drums but some of the tracks on My Pet Fish would be unaffected, and in perhaps two tracks I can think of actually improved. == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 21:48:46 -0500 From: auteur@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re:A-Z >By the way A-Z is up there with Chairs Missing! Is there a CD version >>available? My vinyl copy is wearing away! Yes, actually, it was just reissued last year (or maybe 97, I'm not positive...). I picked up A-Z and Not To/Provisionally Entitled the Singing Fish at a Best Buy around 4 or 5 years ago. I was actually amazed that they had these, especially since just that day I was lamenting that I would probably never find these on CD. Lo and behold..... Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 01:02:13 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: re: re: to drum or not to drum [2] - ---Jack Steinmann wrote: > > Can anyone name any drummers equal to Robert to come out of the '76/'77 period, except maybe Stephen Morris? > Stephen Morris?!? = drum machine Worse: Remember Laurence Tolhurst's Cure drumming from the late 70's / early 80's? = Crap drum machine :) == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:08:44 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: Re[2]: uncut mmmm , just about i guess. they had their moments.p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: uncut Author: MIME:dmack@geocities.com at INTERNET Date: 16/03/1999 20:17 ... harvest records (was there another half decent act on that label?). be-bop deluxe? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:07:38 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: Re: admitting... well its all a question of taste but i'm more than a little surprised to hear someone putting ab ovo or he said over the 3 emi albums......... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: admitting... Author: MIME:KB305@aol.com at INTERNET Date: 16/03/1999 18:24 << Is there anyone who likes the later Wire better who heard the early Wire when it was made, but wasn't particularly impressed? My guess is that there aren't many. >> Perhaps not many, but I'm one. I heard Pink Flag when it came out, and didn't get it. I heard A Bell Is A Cup when it came out, and fell in love with it. Went backwards to Ideal Copy, which I learned to love quickly. Went forward with IBTABA, Manscape, First Letter, etc., and loved them all. Occasionally I'll buy a copy of On Returning or 154 or something in a used CD store, take it home, put it on, and sit there dumb through a few tracks, and then take it off. I still don't get it. Bought This Way, (all 3) He Saids, Ab Ovo, In Esse, A-Z, etc., and liked most of them, but I still can't get the hang of pre-Ideal Copy Wire. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:31:34 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: Re[3]: to drum or not to drum [2] i always thought the sign of a great drummer was an original , recognisable style. i thought steve morris was fabulous , less said about lol t the better. other suggestions ; paul ferguson of killing joke? steve harle of uk decay/furyo? ibo of ausgang? (i'm getting a bit obscure here. i can't think of too many of great note.)p ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: re: re: to drum or not to drum [2] Author: MIME:cngrannell@yahoo.com at INTERNET Date: 17/03/1999 10:11 - ---Jack Steinmann wrote: > > Can anyone name any drummers equal to Robert to come out of the '76/'77 period, except maybe Stephen Morris? > Stephen Morris?!? = drum machine Worse: Remember Laurence Tolhurst's Cure drumming from the late 70's / early 80's? = Crap drum machine :) == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #63 ******************************