From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #62 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, March 16 1999 Volume 02 : Number 062 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Spigel and Newman ["Wilson, Paul" ] Re: Spigel and Newman [Craig Grannell ] Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #60 [Howard Spencer ] mike t [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re: Wire Politics [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] re: Wire Politics ["Jack Steinmann" ] Wet & Wimpy [Steve Loubert ] Re: Wet & Wimpy ["tube disaster" ] Re: old vs new [Craig Grannell ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:36:27 -0000 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: Spigel and Newman I've just received my copy of the Spigel and Newman CD. I've played it once only so far, but first impressions are very favourable! I was expecting another Bastard, but it is not like that at all. Highly recommended. It is just me though, or do the songs sound a lot like something else. I seem to recognise a lot of the tunes. Just for the record, my copy is number 51. (It doesn't seem to be selling very well, does it?) Paul KW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 01:41:40 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: Spigel and Newman - ---"Wilson, Paul" wrote: > > I've just received my copy of the Spigel and Newman CD. > It is just me though, or do the songs sound a lot like something else. I > seem to recognise a lot of the tunes. > All of the tracks, bar Encore, are based on pieces from Bastard, My Pet Fish, Rosh, Immersion, and Hide. If you've heard any of these then you're bound to recognise plenty!! == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:50:48 +0000 From: Howard Spencer Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #60 Uri Baran wrote: I reckon that the music and behaviour of the group is much influenced y their relationships with each other for example, from what I've read (extrapolating suitably),it seems as though there is quite a tension between Colin and Graham. Could this be because Graham's material has tended to focus on his singing and bass playing whereas Colin has perhaps focused on his vocals and own guitar? Shades of competition perhaps? - --- Uri makes an interesting point about the internal politics of the band. The rivalry between Graham and Colin was nicely played up in the `Eardrum Buzz' video, in which they are seen trying to nudge each other from centre stage. Graham and Bruce also conspire to go off and have a curry together, on Bruce's credit card. This issue also comes up in the current number of `Uncut' magazine, which contains a `great albums of our time feature' on `154' (`Map Ref' is on the accompanying free CD). Colin has been interviewed for the piece (the accompanying photo, in a triumph of picture research, is of Bruce) and talks of his deliberate attempts to piss Graham off by playing tunes over `I should've known better', and of Graham's reciprocal attmept to `noise up' `On returning'. (I left my copy of the mag on a train so I'm working from memory: the feature as a whole isn't great, but there is a good accompanying photo c. 1979, and the CD isn't bad) The rivalry has probably always been there - didn't Colin wind up Graham until he snapped on their very first encounter? (see Kevin's book). There is obviously a thin line between creative tension and a damaging clash of egos. I wonder if this line got crossed some time in 91/92? If so I wish they'd get over it - the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, methinks. And `The First Letter', as has recently been widely agreed on this list, is so bloody good that it is tragic that it hasn't been followed up. While I'm on, can I also stick up for Manscape, another of my favourites? Howard ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:26:46 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: mike t anyone else see mike thorne on the "new romantic top ten" show on saturday night (uk c4)? he was talking about soft cell , i'd never seen him on tv before. quite a good show actually , all pretty tongue in cheek. p ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:19:30 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: Re: Wire Politics >> can remember this list discussing most Wire things except internalpolitics. This could get quite contentious but it could also be very informative and insightful so here goes.... mmm , interesting question. i remember in kevin's book you got the sense some of the recording sessions weren't all that happy , particularly for colin. i always saw it as a colin vs bruce/graham thing with rob always sidelined. things like the separate writing credits after pink flag probably reflect this too. between the lines , maybe colin just wanted to do the music in his own way so hence a solo career. funny thing was that on the later albums like manscape/first letter they seem musically more "as one" than ever , with colin and graham doing a lot of "duets" on the vocals. also , unlike so many other long-term bands , i never seem to see wire whinging on about money.it really did sound like it was the music that matterred to them.p ------------------------------ Date: 15 Mar 99 14:46:36 -0600 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: re: Wire Politics Reply to: re: Wire Politics I don't know. I think of Manscape as the album wherein Graham "took over" from Colin as the lead vocalist. Jack On 3/15/99, paul.rabjohn wrote: ...funny thing was that on the later albums like manscape/first letter they seem musically more "as one" than ever , with colin and graham doing a lot of "duets" on the vocals. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:10:48 -0600 From: Steve Loubert Subject: Wet & Wimpy >From: rtc@sirius.com (Robert Cambra) >It's funny that so many here are into the mid to late 80s Wire. At the time >a lot of wire fans thought the new material was wet and wimpy! It's good to >see time proving them misguided. Until this list, I took it as a given that noone could hold later Wire in as high regard as the early stuff. While I like it, and I wouldn't call it wet and wimpy, for me it could never hope to compare with what they did early on. Part of that is the context in which it was made. Even though it was clearly inspired by the minimalist DIY punk aesthetic of the times, the early stuff was so unlike anything else that was going on then, a real leap ahead. For me it was an amazing progression from Pink Flag to 154, a nearly perfect combination of pop accessibility and artistic wierdness. An impossible act to follow. Having said that, I still think that it's cool that there are people who like the later Wire better. Their comments have made me listen more closely to the later stuff, and I have discovered things that I had previously missed. Is there anyone who likes the later Wire better who heard the early Wire when it was made, but wasn't particularly impressed? My guess is that there aren't many. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 19:24:45 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Wet & Wimpy >>From: rtc@sirius.com (Robert Cambra) >>It's funny that so many here are into the mid to late 80s Wire. At the time >>a lot of wire fans thought the new material was wet and wimpy! It's good to >>see time proving them misguided. > >Until this list, I took it as a given that noone could hold later Wire in >as high regard as the early stuff. While I like it, and I wouldn't call it >wet and wimpy, for me it could never hope to compare with what they did >early on. Part of that is the context in which it was made. Even though >it was clearly inspired by the minimalist DIY punk aesthetic of the times, >the early stuff was so unlike anything else that was going on then, a real >leap ahead. For me it was an amazing progression from Pink Flag to 154, a >nearly perfect combination of pop accessibility and artistic wierdness. An >impossible act to follow. > >Having said that, I still think that it's cool that there are people who >like the later Wire better. Their comments have made me listen more >closely to the later stuff, and I have discovered things that I had >previously missed. > >Is there anyone who likes the later Wire better who heard the early Wire >when it was made, but wasn't particularly impressed? My guess is that >there aren't many. > >Steve > My reaction is almost the same as yours ... It truly never entered my mind that anyone could downgrade any of the first 3 albums in comparison to Snakedrill or anything that came after it, & my hackles still raise when anyone disparages Pink Flag, which of course happens fairly often. (At some point I'm going to have to resign myself to the fact that this world contains unfortunates whose musical perceptions were irremediably shaped by, I dunno, Orb aural wallpaper or something & who have a problem appreciating capital-P Punk, even in its more cerebral incarnation. To each his own ...) That said, compiling a best-of tape for a friend a few weeks ago of 2nd-incaration Wire (& Wir) made me realize anew just how vital they often sounded in the late '80s ... so much so that if I'd encountered that music before hearing the late-'70s stuff, I really don't know how I'd react to the latter. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 01:17:32 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: old vs new I'm not old enough to remember the original Wire when it happened ( although, to my credit, the first piece of music I truly remember is the first release of Dury's "Hit me with your Rhythm Stick") but it seems that there is a combination of memory and nostalgia influencing people's choices and comments. And before everyone starts going "you weren't there, you're talking crap" then I can say I have similar feelings, but towards Ideal Copy and Bell. The former is still a great album IMHO, but with the later, although I like it immensely, I think my feelings towards it are more to do with memory and personal things than whether it's any good or not. Perhaps this is just as important as "musicianship" or "quality" - the ability of music to sit perfectly in a moment in time, enhance emotions, and allow that moment to live forever. Other points seem to be the "futuristic" sounds that Wire have created, not in a kitsch sense, but in a real "ahead of its time" way. My opinion here is that the first album that really achieved this is actually "The First Letter". Although the EMI stuff may have sounded "different" at the time, "Pink Flag" is still a punk record and "154" still a new wave record, sometimes along the lines of "Roxy Music" et al no matter how strange and twisted it became. The early Mute stuff also ran along the lines of current trends. Like the 70s Wire, much of it was better than their contemporaries, but still similar all the same. With "Drill" things began to change and by the time "The First Letter" came out I truly believe Wir(e) had an album that was ahead, if only for a few years. Imagine if that album were released today ... Of course, Wir(e), in its component parts still aim at the cutting edge. Colin's recent stuff with Malka is as innovative as ever, combining current dance trends with what I imagine will be soon to be discovered trends! Graham too has produced wonderfully new albums with Omala, that hint of other things but sound like nothing else. I guess it's good people can appreciate different things but still manage to generally appreciate the whole. As Dan said, each to his own! == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #62 ******************************