From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #42 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, February 20 1999 Volume 02 : Number 042 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Chairs Missing [Brian ] Re: Concepts...Yuck! [Brian ] Re: Disposability [Brian ] silence......... [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] This ain't no planet of sounddddd ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #41 ["charles" ] Re: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] he transferred his soul to his imagination ["Miles Goosens" ] Re: silence......... [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Wire influences. [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Colin's Influences.... ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] Re: Colin's Influences.... [Dave Walker ] Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #41 [Aaron Mandel ] Wire Soundish Band... ["Wilson, Chad" ] Post-Contemporary ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] Re: Colin's Influences.... ["tube disaster" ] Re:Anyone's Influences.... ["Mack" ] Re: Post-Contemporary ["tube disaster" ] Re: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! ["tube disaster" ] Re: Re:Anyone's Influences.... ["tube disaster" ] Re: Concepts...Yuck! [Brian ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:34:29 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Chairs Missing Well, From the Nursery is a classic in it's own right. any further explanation is pointless. Robert Cambra wrote: > Hi All, > > Wed, 17 Feb 1999 IBRAHIM BOZAISubject wrote: > Didn't Marcel Duchamps (a Wire influence) have that disposable attitude?- > -- that anything more than 20 years old *should* die? > > Yes, he said (and I think have a recording of him saying this) that a work > of art has a life span of about 100 years, and that after its meaningful > life is probably over so you might as well toss it out. Out of context an > artwork become merely a relic, maybe interesting, but dead. > > The old Wire is still alive for an old fart like me. "Chairs Missing" is > one of my favorite albums of all time. It doesn't sound like anything else > that came out at the time, or before or since. This one will have a long > life. It doesn't date the way the work of other bands of the era, who put > on a proletarian pose and ranted about politics, quickly did. It's a very > unusual, weird record--Dada punk music hall?--I'm still not sure. I AM THE > FLY, I FEEL MYSTERIOUS TODAY, IN THE NURSERY--these are good for a > lifetime! > > I picked up the Japanese "Chairs Missing" because at the time it was the > only place I knew to get the long version of OUTDOOR MINER on cd. I wasn't > looking for better sound but on first listen I was so wowed by how great it > sounded--open, clear and strong--that it was an easy decision to spend the > money to pick up the other two Japanese discs. They sound that good, at > least to me. > > Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:37:16 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Concepts...Yuck! Everyone, that I know who knew him thought less of him than they let on. Mack wrote: > >--Jeff, who actually thought Kim looked pretty good until the heroin took > >over > wrong deal sis > > and those who think nirvana was a product of the 'star maker machine' missed > the fact that thousands of suburban whiteboys actually didn't need any help > falling for a real metal band with catchy songs and mopey lyrics > > kurt realized it too - and was not quite equiped to deal with the dichotomy > > d ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:39:19 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Disposability Doh!, doh!, doh!, doh! tube disaster wrote: > >On Feb 17, 7:27pm, tube disaster wrote: > >> Subject: Re: Disposability > >> > >> > >> > > >> >> Sure, context is important, but some albums transcend context. "Pink > >> Flag" > >> >was timely; "154" is timeless. The Warsaw EP was timely; "Unknown > >> Pleasures" > >> >is timeless. Or something. > >> > > >> >Some albums transcend context for *some* people. > >> >If 154 were truly "timeless" then I wouldn't have complained about it > >> >sounding "70s-ish" when I first heard it in '92. No? > >> > > >> Ever considered the possibility that you're ... ah ... you know ... > >> taste-challenged? It happens. > >> > >Umm... well.... probably no more "challenged" than anyone else... > >certainly not more than nostalgic ex-Punks who, even in 1999, seem to have > a > >lot of time for music that essentially revolves around gestures rather than > >sounds... > > "Gestures rather than sounds"? Well, that Toni Basil video for Mickey > involved a lot of cheerleading-type stuff, if memory serves, but beyond that > I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Do you? Nostalgic ex-punk or > not, I *listen* to my old records & new CDs. If I were into gestures over > sounds, I'd value the Lemon Kittens far more than I do the stuff Danielle > Dax did afterward ... but I'm not, so I don't. > > Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:59:03 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: silence......... i recall someone saying about how "silence of the lambs" includes colin's "alone" on the soundtrack. its being shown this sunday on uk tv ; can anyone tell me where in the film its featured? i was worried it would be one of those "blink and you miss it" soundbites.p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:59:03 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! >ofcourse you can! The sound is why you're there unless the appeal was something else. ! > Rock n roll? When did that become a relevant term? The term "Rock and Roll" describes a method of marketing music in a way that makes it accessible to the casual record buyer - this is how the mainstream makes its money, by grabbing the attention of consumers who could just as easily take their money and buy a video game or a copy of Titanic or whatever. no. its just a wide term of definition for a musical style. the marketing and everything else comes later. you could play rock n roll in your garage for your mates , its up to you if you go and market it. When you strip music down to the sound you're left with THE POINT - sans the intellectual clutter of "theories." well sometimes i like a bit of clutter. The fact that the Pixies didn't sell 20 million had to do with marketing. There's a world of difference between the marketing muscle of Geffen and 4AD. Few of us even heard about Nirvana before they signed to DGC. The actual music of the Pixies was probably much more viable than Nirvana. Looks don't matter nearly as much as we think. Look at Thom Yorke! He's not Brad Pitt! It's about timing and the resources to take advantage of it. well , as you well know , for every one thom yorke there's a hundred pretty boys. the thing with nirvana was that they didnt take advantage of any moment , they became the moment (as the pistols did previously). and looking so good sure helped. p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:29:07 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: This ain't no planet of sounddddd On Feb 18, 6:51pm, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > Subject: Re: Concepts...Yuck! > On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > > > a thought ; if frank black had been as pretty as kurt cobain , would the > > pixies have achieved what nirvana did?p > > Now, if Kim Deal had been as pretty as Krist Novoselic, what then? > > --Jeff, who actually thought Kim looked pretty good until the heroin took > over > Actually it was her sister Kelley who was busted! The b-side of Divine Hammer is "Hoverin'" - an anti-drug song! > J e f f r e y N o r m a n > The Architectural Dance Society > www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html > ::clip clop clip clop clip clop clip bang clop clip clop clip clop:: > __Amish drive-by shooting__ > >-- End of excerpt from Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 06:53:23 -0800 From: "charles" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #41 : :and who the hell are squarepusher? p: If Ibrahim has one point it's made right here. All that gushing about PF and Wire, and Nostalgia but you don't know who Squarepusher. BTW Squarepusher are an electronic fusion band)! ...That was one of the things that I loved about Wire. They were contemporaneous, which as Ibrahim rightly states, they aren't right now. WIR has some lasting value. That record is classic, even more so today. PF or 154 for that matter have no relavance other than Nostalgia or Historical compared to that,. c PS> To all the SF folks, there's a concert at Static on TUES 23rd. Some Dugga artists and your truly will be there. Hope to meet some of you! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:02:23 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! On Feb 19, 10:59am, paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > Subject: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! > >ofcourse you can! The sound is why you're there > unless the appeal was something else. > ! > > > > Rock n roll? When did that become a relevant term? > The term "Rock and Roll" describes a method of marketing music in a way that makes it accessible to the casual record buyer - this is how the mainstream makes its money, by grabbing the attention of consumers who could just as easily take their money and buy a video game or a copy of Titanic or whatever. > no. its just a wide term of definition for a musical style. the marketing and everything else comes later. you could play rock n roll in your garage for your mates , its up to you if you go and market it. I still don't get how a Wire fan of all people could actually find that a useful term. This "Rock and roll" really just describes cliched music. > > > > When you strip music down to the sound you're left with THE POINT - sans the intellectual clutter of "theories." > well sometimes i like a bit of clutter. > > The fact that the Pixies didn't sell 20 million had to do with marketing. There's a world of difference between the marketing muscle of Geffen and 4AD. Few of us even heard about Nirvana before they signed to DGC. > The actual music of the Pixies was probably much more viable than Nirvana. Looks don't matter nearly as much as we think. Look at Thom Yorke! He's not Brad Pitt! It's about timing and the resources to take advantage of it. > well , as you well know , for every one thom yorke there's a hundred pretty boys. the thing with nirvana was that they didnt take advantage of any moment , they became the moment (as the pistols did previously). and looking so good sure helped. "Became the moment?" That sounds terribly naive. No entity achieves fame without deliberate effort behind it. Nirvana had Geffen and the Pistols had a clever manager. > > > > p >-- End of excerpt from paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:04:04 -0000 From: "Miles Goosens" Subject: he transferred his soul to his imagination A couple of recent threads: PINK FLAG, etc.: I think a little iconoclasm is a healthy thing, and Ibrahim's comments about PINK FLAG represent a valid viewpoint. My own feelings about PINK FLAG fall somewhere in between its knee-jerk defenders and Ibrahim: I think most of it is very good, but CHAIRS MISSING and 154 quickly surpassed it. Even though PINK FLAG is clearly different than the Damned or the Pistols, it's also still recognizably part of the punk milieu, but I'm not sure if the next two albums are even of earthly origin. (And FWIW, my first Wire purchase was the Restless/Enigma reissue of PINK FLAG, which I bought in 1989 or 1990 based on the REM cover of "Strange" and the Trouser Press Record Guide entry on Wire. It didn't impress me that much at the time; the event that transformed me into a Wire fan was the purchase of a bargain-bin THE FIRST LETTER in 1992. I liked it so much that in short order I worked backwards with both versions of the group, getting CHAIRS MISSING and THE IDEAL COPY next, and I've been a devotee ever since.) Kurt Cobain and Nirvana: I'm an unabashed Nirvana fan, and I still believe that the amount of sneering thrown the band's way is more a result of ex-post-facto elitist snobbery in the wake of NEVERMIND's commercial success than anything else. The very same people who were saying to me "this album's great, you've got to get it!" in August 1991 when NEVERMIND came out were the very same ones proclaiming it a sellout by October, when it was firmly ensconced in the US top ten. later, listowner Miles - --- /====================================================================\ | Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com | | http://www.rsteviemoore.com outdoorminer@zdnetmail.com | | http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer | | | | "Why everything has to get in the way all the time I don't know." | | -- Janet Ingraham Dwyer | \====================================================================/ Free web-based email, anytime, anywhere! ZDNet Mail - http://www.zdnetmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:06:26 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Brammer Subject: Wire influences. and certainly not more than one Mr. Newman... Have you seenlists of his favourite records?>> I read Everybody loves a history, but the only specific influence I remember him siting were the Beatles, and he said the Early Sex Pistols were good. What others? Robert. == _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:33:54 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: silence......... Excerpts from mail: 19-Feb-99 silence......... by paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ss > i recall someone saying about how "silence of the lambs" includes colin's "alone > " on the soundtrack. its being shown this sunday on uk tv ; can anyone tell me w > here in the film its featured? i was worried it would be one of those "blink and > you miss it" soundbites.p No no no no no... It's not on the soundtrack, but it is in the movie. (Did that make sense?) The CD soundtrack includes only the classical score which was composed for the movie. Anyhow, the scene to look for is when the basement is first shown. The woman is screaming from inside the pit and the killer is sewing an outfit out of human flesh while listening to Mr. Newman. The whole scene is around 10 seconds long, which is enough time to recognize the song. And you will never think of "Alone" the same way again (much like "Stuck in the middle with you" from Resevoir Dogs). (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "He'd got ooperzootics on the brain." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:37:26 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Wire influences. Excerpts from mail: 19-Feb-99 Wire influences. by Robert Brammer@yahoo.com > and certainly not more than one Mr. Newman... Have you seenlists > of his favourite records?>> > > I read Everybody loves a history, but the only specific influence I > remember him siting were the Beatles, and he said the Early Sex > Pistols were good. He also mentions Capt. Beefheart in ELAH. And Colin has done covers by J. J. Cale (the same song which Clapton covered), Jon Richman & The Modern Lovers, the Beatles, and Lovin' Spoonful. So I guess you can count all these people as influences in some sense of the word. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "He'd got ooperzootics on the brain." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:38:45 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: Colin's Influences.... After only 1500 clicks I managed to find it again! I take it back. It's not all crap! Anybody that likes "Word Up" by Cameo is cool with me! (laugh) www.furious.com/perfect/staff3.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:56:09 -0500 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: Colin's Influences.... Shake, Jeff Mills, Bowery Electric, Klute... sounds pretty good to me, actually. -d.w. IBRAHIM BOZAI wrote: > After only 1500 clicks I managed to find it again! > > I take it back. It's not all crap! > > Anybody that likes "Word Up" by Cameo is cool with me! (laugh) > > www.furious.com/perfect/staff3.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:00:40 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #41 On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, charles wrote: > ...That was one of the things that I loved about Wire. They were > contemporaneous, which as Ibrahim rightly states, they aren't right > now. WIR has some lasting value. That record is classic, even more so > today. PF or 154 for that matter have no relavance other than > Nostalgia or Historical compared to that,. now, what is the value of being contemporaneous? is it a goal in itself? is music now a newspaper? a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:07:58 -0800 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: Wire Soundish Band... I was dorking around on mp3.com the other day and came accross this band called "Popstar Assassins" that do a pretty good Wire imitation on "in regards to the contract". Normally I don't like bands that cop Wire's sound but for some reason I don't hold the same grudge against these guys. As the song goes on it starts sounding more like Rush, weird... Check them out at... http://www.mp3.com/music/Alternative/9418.html Then go check out my band (if you like Dream Syndicate, Thin White Rope, or The Church) at... ;-) http://www.mp3.com/popealopes Chad ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:33:27 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: Post-Contemporary On Feb 19, 2:00pm, Aaron Mandel wrote: > > ...That was one of the things that I loved about Wire. They were > > contemporaneous, which as Ibrahim rightly states, they aren't right > > now. WIR has some lasting value. That record is classic, even more so > > today. PF or 154 for that matter have no relavance other than > > Nostalgia or Historical compared to that,. > > now, what is the value of being contemporaneous? is it a goal in itself? For me, no. I don't actually care about newness all that much. I'm interested in good music. That's it. But new developments in technology have allowed people to come up with sounds and musics that couldn't have existed before and I and many others can't help but respond to that. Every so often the bar is raised and it makes it things that came before pale in comparison. I'm sure the idea of distorted rock guitar did that at some point. Drum n bass rhythms are doing it now. Once you've tasted that special sound there's no going back! > is music now a newspaper? Newspapers are not in the business of delivering news. They deliver readers to other businesses i.e. advertisers. And a lot of music does the same thing. Early "rock and roll" was about realizing the potential of the teen demographic. It wasn't about music. It was (and still is) about diverting wealth and serving egos. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:48:47 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Colin's Influences.... Damn straight! And Have I the Right, Telstar (something tells me Colin has those Joe Meek comps ... need to buy 'em myself) & Boredom, too! That Oasis listing *is* a bit worrisome, though ... Dan >After only 1500 clicks I managed to find it again! > >I take it back. It's not all crap! > >Anybody that likes "Word Up" by Cameo is cool with me! (laugh) > >www.furious.com/perfect/staff3.html > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:20:02 -0600 From: "Mack" Subject: Re:Anyone's Influences.... >Damn straight! And Have I the Right, Telstar (something tells me Colin has >those Joe Meek comps ... need to buy 'em myself) & Boredom, too! That Oasis >listing *is* a bit worrisome, though ... we all have those 'guilty pleasures', tho - i suspect that one might have been 'having 'em on'... i myself cannot beleive how good humble pie 'rocling the filmore' still sounds - peter frampton and all tho i am far more excited at the new waxtrax juan atkins mastermix comp (all you electro young uns should dig in) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:15:58 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Post-Contemporary >On Feb 19, 2:00pm, Aaron Mandel wrote: > >> > ...That was one of the things that I loved about Wire. They were >> > contemporaneous, which as Ibrahim rightly states, they aren't right >> > now. WIR has some lasting value. That record is classic, even more so >> > today. PF or 154 for that matter have no relavance other than >> > Nostalgia or Historical compared to that,. >> >> now, what is the value of being contemporaneous? is it a goal in itself? > >For me, no. I don't actually care about newness all that much. I'm >interested in good music. That's it. But new developments in technology >have allowed people to come up with sounds and musics that couldn't have >existed before and I and many others can't help but respond to that. >Every so often the bar is raised and it makes it things that came before pale >in comparison. I'm sure the idea of distorted rock guitar did that at some >point. Drum n bass rhythms are doing it now. Once you've tasted that >special sound there's no going back! > > >> is music now a newspaper? > >Newspapers are not in the business of delivering news. They deliver readers >to other businesses i.e. advertisers. And a lot of music does the same >thing. Early "rock and roll" was about realizing the potential of the teen >demographic. It wasn't about music. It was (and still is) about diverting >wealth and serving egos. > Whereas Squarepusher & the like send you their music straight over the internet without expecting a dime in return? Cool! Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:22:14 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! >On Feb 19, 10:59am, paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: >> Subject: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! >> >ofcourse you can! The sound is why you're there >> unless the appeal was something else. >> ! >> >> >> > Rock n roll? When did that become a relevant term? >> The term "Rock and Roll" describes a method of marketing music in a way >that makes it accessible to the casual record buyer - this is how the >mainstream makes its money, by grabbing the attention of consumers who could >just as easily take their money and buy a video game or a copy of Titanic or >whatever. > >> no. its just a wide term of definition for a musical style. the marketing >and everything else comes later. you could play rock n roll in your garage >for your mates , its up to you if you go and market it. > >I still don't get how a Wire fan of all people could actually find that a >useful term. This "Rock and roll" really just describes cliched music. > Oh, don't let's be vacuous, unless I'm really missing something here. In any event, I'm finding expressions of (mainly nonmusical) labelphobia on various lists really tiresome lately ... Labels, while inherently unsatisfactory, nonetheless *do* serve a purpose. If someone tells me that Wire played "rock'n'roll" or "punk" or "postpunk" or whatever, at least I knew that whatever the heck they sound like, it *isn't* "opera" or "country & western" or "ragtime" or "Native American drumming" or ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 00:26:35 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: Re:Anyone's Influences.... > >>Damn straight! And Have I the Right, Telstar (something tells me Colin has >>those Joe Meek comps ... need to buy 'em myself) & Boredom, too! That Oasis >>listing *is* a bit worrisome, though ... > >we all have those 'guilty pleasures', You're telling me! I staggered in from the used shop across the graveyard from my house a couple of days ago with the likes of Movin' with Nancy (Sinatra), Prince's s/t, The Many Faces of Roger (Troutman) & Lakeside's s/t & Shot of Love, among others, all rescued from the $1 vinyl stacks ... Dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:08:46 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Anyone's Influences.... Booooring. Mack wrote: > >Damn straight! And Have I the Right, Telstar (something tells me Colin has > >those Joe Meek comps ... need to buy 'em myself) & Boredom, too! That Oasis > >listing *is* a bit worrisome, though ... > > we all have those 'guilty pleasures', > tho - i suspect that one might have been 'having 'em on'... > > i myself cannot beleive how good humble pie 'rocling the filmore' still > sounds - peter frampton and all > > tho i am far more excited at the new waxtrax juan atkins mastermix comp > (all you electro young uns should dig in) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:11:46 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Concepts...Yuck! Dan, at least someone else thinks labels are for glue company's tube disaster wrote: > >On Feb 19, 10:59am, paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > >> Subject: Re[2]: Concepts...Yuck! > >> >ofcourse you can! The sound is why you're there > >> unless the appeal was something else. > >> ! > >> > >> > >> > Rock n roll? When did that become a relevant term? > >> The term "Rock and Roll" describes a method of marketing music in a way > >that makes it accessible to the casual record buyer - this is how the > >mainstream makes its money, by grabbing the attention of consumers who > could > >just as easily take their money and buy a video game or a copy of Titanic > or > >whatever. > > > >> no. its just a wide term of definition for a musical style. the marketing > >and everything else comes later. you could play rock n roll in your garage > >for your mates , its up to you if you go and market it. > > > >I still don't get how a Wire fan of all people could actually find that a > >useful term. This "Rock and roll" really just describes cliched music. > > > > Oh, don't let's be vacuous, unless I'm really missing something here. In any > event, I'm finding expressions of (mainly nonmusical) labelphobia on various > lists really tiresome lately ... Labels, while inherently unsatisfactory, > nonetheless *do* serve a purpose. If someone tells me that Wire played > "rock'n'roll" or "punk" or "postpunk" or whatever, at least I knew that > whatever the heck they sound like, it *isn't* "opera" or "country & western" > or "ragtime" or "Native American drumming" or ... > > Dan ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #42 ******************************