From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #13 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, January 14 1999 Volume 02 : Number 013 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Menswear [Craig Grannell ] wmo [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] More Wire on the radio [aschi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu] Menswe@r [radareyes@webtv.net] more menswear. [radareyes@webtv.net] re: finding their albums ["Jack Steinmann" ] Re: more menswear. [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re: more menswear. [Craig Grannell ] Re: still more menswear. (some might say too much - but not I) ["Mack" ] Ahhhh... Morrissey!!!!! ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] RE: Jane Finch crew's in effect ["Jack Steinmann" ] Re: Jane Finch crew's in effect ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] Re: My North American Radio Rant! [flaherty michael w ] Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #12 ["charles / wmo" ] Re: Wire in the Studio / live [Craig Grannell ] Re: -ping.pong- plagiarisation [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] big black [dieter.loos@ubs.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:27:46 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Menswear I had the dubious pleasure of hearing the Menswear album. It's not worth bothering with. Basically, they couldn't decide who to be. One track sounds like Wire, a couple sound like the Smiths, one even sounds a dead ringer for These Animal Men. None even apporach the originals in terms of quality. Like Elastica, it seems they too have disappeared after being told they'd have to write their own tunes for their second release. C. == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:32:54 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: wmo could someone tell me the wmo e-mail address , i can't get thru to them.p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:55:41 -0500 (EST) From: aschi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu Subject: More Wire on the radio If you're in the Boston area, WZBC 90.3 plays some Wire from time to time, although not as frequently as I'd like. On Wednesday evenings from 7pm to 10pm, however, is a show where occasionally you'll hear Wire, but you're more likely to hear some Dome or Colin Newman among the other interesting noise. In addition, the DJ, Brian, is quite helpful if you're trying to find something he played... Amanda - -- :=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=: : aschi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu aki@retina.net : :=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:26:06 -0600 (CST) From: radareyes@webtv.net Subject: Menswe@r (craig garnell wrote): Even sadder: Menswear didn't actually claim to be Wire fans (if memory recalls they weren't even that familiar with them) but they were big Elastica fans, hence the similarity! Wire, twice removed!! ______________ Well, I have read and heard otherwise about that. I've read where they said they did like Wire. I got a chance to meet some of the members of Menswear one time when they played in NYC and let me tell you they knew their history of British music from Mod, to psychedlic, to punk, to power pop, to glam, to new wave, to post-punk, etc. And I believe one of the members of the band (I think it was Chris) was going out with the guitarist Donna from Elastica. So, believe me they are fans of Wire. I also got a chance to meet some of the members of Elastica twice. Donna and Justine were espcially very cool. And we all know they are fans of Wire. Gem* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:33:13 -0600 (CST) From: radareyes@webtv.net Subject: more menswear. (craig garnell wrote): it seems they too have disappeared after being told they'd have to write their own tunes for their second release. ______________ I think I heard that Menswear's label folded and they are having trouble getting signed on a label in the UK & US because it seems for some reason no label wants to touch any of that Mod, Britpop, or New Wave of New Wave stuff again. I heard a rumor that their second LP got released on a major in Japan only. Maybe they could get on Swim (he he). ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 99 10:59:38 -0600 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: re: finding their albums Reply to: re: finding their albums When A Bell is a Cup came out I ran across a DAT release of it in Toronto. (This was before the record industry had killed off DAT as a consumer distribution format.) The sticker on the cassette said something along the lines of "First rock release on DAT!" On 1/12/99, Keef wrote: Some of Wire's general "unknownness" may have been Restless's crappy distribution, at least in the States. During the late 80's when it looked as if Wire might actually become very popular what with the television appearances and all and Bell Is A Cup on the radio, you couldn't find their albums for love or money in the shops, and it was always the same story when I ordered them ... backordered. It was simply impossible to find. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:24:38 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: Re: more menswear. maybe swim could put out a compilation of no-hopers making inept attempts at wire covers. maybe menswear could do "blessed state" , carter usm could do "so and slow" and these animal men could do "a panamanian craze". any other ideas? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: more menswear. Author: MIME:radareyes@webtv.net at INTERNET Date: 13/01/1999 17:37 (craig garnell wrote): it seems they too have disappeared after being told they'd have to write their own tunes for their second release. ______________ I think I heard that Menswear's label folded and they are having trouble getting signed on a label in the UK & US because it seems for some reason no label wants to touch any of that Mod, Britpop, or New Wave of New Wave stuff again. I heard a rumor that their second LP got released on a major in Japan only. Maybe they could get on Swim (he he). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:39:49 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: more menswear. - ---paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > > maybe swim could put out a compilation of no-hopers making inept attempts at wire covers. maybe menswear could do "blessed state" , carter usm could do "so and slow" and these animal men could do "a panamanian craze". any other ideas? > Maybe Elastica could do Three Girl Rhumba ... == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:42:48 -0600 From: "Mack" Subject: Re: still more menswear. (some might say too much - but not I) >maybe swim could put out a compilation of no-hopers making inept attempts at wire covers. maybe menswear could do "blessed state" , carter usm could do "so and slow" and these animal men could do "a panamanian craze". any other ideas?this would seem to be the mor proper domain of say... TVT or some indie vanity label in South Bend Indiana ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:42:06 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: Jane Finch crew's in effect On Jan 13, 10:59am, Jack Steinmann wrote: > Subject: re: finding their albums > Reply to: re: finding their albums > > When A Bell is a Cup came out I ran across a DAT release of it in Toronto. (This was before the record industry had killed off DAT as a consumer distribution format.) The sticker on the cassette said something along the lines of "First rock release on DAT!" > Actually, Record Peddler, when it was on Yonge St. had Ideal Copy on DAT but you couldn't actually touch unless you asked...they kept it way up high on a shelf... up to the sun.... ibrahim (bigupalljanefinchmassive!) lol > > On 1/12/99, Keef wrote: > Some of Wire's general "unknownness" may have been Restless's crappy distribution, at least in the States. During the late 80's when it looked as if Wire might actually become very popular what with the television appearances and all and Bell Is A Cup on the radio, you couldn't find their albums for love or money in the shops, and it was always the same story when I ordered them ... backordered. It was simply impossible to find. >-- End of excerpt from Jack Steinmann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:45:16 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: Ahhhh... Morrissey!!!!! On Jan 13, 9:39am, Craig Grannell wrote: > Subject: Re: more menswear. > ---paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > > > > maybe swim could put out a compilation of no-hopers making inept > attempts at wire covers. maybe menswear could do "blessed state" , > carter usm could do "so and slow" and these animal men could do "a > panamanian craze". any other ideas? > > > Maybe Elastica could do Three Girl Rhumba ... > == > ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- > www: > SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk > Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html > ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- > "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" > --------------------------------------------------------- > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >-- End of excerpt from Craig Grannell Actually I'd love to see Graham do an "Eyes Fly' type duet with Morrissey! Has anyone heard that Boards of Canada disc? Better than Swim. ------------------------------ Date: 13 Jan 99 12:06:48 -0600 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: RE: Jane Finch crew's in effect Reply to: RE: Jane Finch crew's in effect Oops. You're absolutely right. It was Ideal Copy, not ABIAC. A shop on Carlton, off the intersection with Yonge. Jack On 1/13/99, ibrahim wrote: Actually, Record Peddler, when it was on Yonge St. had Ideal Copy on DAT but you couldn't actually touch unless you asked...they kept it way up high on a shelf... up to the sun.... ibrahim (bigupalljanefinchmassive!) lol ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:12:44 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: Re: Jane Finch crew's in effect On Jan 13, 12:06pm, Jack Steinmann wrote: > Subject: RE: Jane Finch crew's in effect > Reply to: RE: Jane Finch crew's in effect > > Oops. You're absolutely right. It was Ideal Copy, not ABIAC. A shop on Carlton, off the intersection with Yonge. > > Ahhh.. .I think that was Starsound which is now Traxx but is still a DJ store basically... I remember going into Starsound years ago and being blasted with KLF and Technotronic but of course back then I didn't care... I was flipping thru the 12"s looking for Smiths b-sides! Kids are funny. And smaller. i > > > On 1/13/99, ibrahim wrote: > Actually, Record Peddler, when it was on Yonge St. had Ideal Copy on DAT but > you couldn't actually touch unless you asked...they kept it way up high on a > shelf... up to the sun.... > > ibrahim (bigupalljanefinchmassive!) lol > >-- End of excerpt from Jack Steinmann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:30:30 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: My North American Radio Rant! On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, Steve Loubert wrote: > Michael Flaherty wrote: > > >In the late 70s KFAI, a small radio station in Minneapolis, use to play > >Wire regularly--sometimes entire 20-30 minute sets. This was done simply > >because one the DJs at the time was (is) a big fan: me. > > Believe it or not, this is where I first heard Wire. There was a DJ there > who was playing "Manchester music" one night, and he played "Question of > Degree", which knocked me over. KFAI (which couldn't have been more than 100 > watts strong) was the only radio station in town that played "new wave" music > back then, a couple of blocks in a week. I used to set up my reel-to-reel > to record it so I could play it back all week. When I was there it was more like 10 watts. I was always amazed at how much response I got. Probably not enough to make commercial people happy, but still ... Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:33:48 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Brammer Subject: Wire in the Studio <> Showing how a song comes together is not "farting around in the studio." It's an interesting look inside the band, yes it is only for those who are "hardcore fans" of that band, but that's what WMO is for! As for Rock Tributes they are a cheezy way to cash in on some one elses brilliance, decidedly an "anti-wire" view. I would think more people here would appreciate an attempt at creativity (even manscape, with its failings) as opposed to just another derivative attempt, such as Elastica or another one of those sound a like pop bands that makes all their cash emulating the past. Boring, save your money, don't buy Elastica alblums..spend it on a Swim release or one of the WMO releases that isn't a damn tribute. Robert. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:27:38 -0800 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V2 #12 A few notes regarding why WMO releases what it does. "Whore" was hands down the best selling WMO release, followed by "Coatings", then "Turns & Strokes". Based on that alone, then Dugga would then seem like a good idea, right? (Dugga musically also had a second agenda in being the blueprint for the Thousand label, but this was after-the-fact.) If one were to read KS Eden's "Everyone Loves a History", they would summize that WMO is releasing works from Wire's past that a) weren't released then i.e. "pre>He" or "Pacific/Specific", or b) making things available on CD such as Desmond Simmons and P'o. The label is also preparing a Dome release for mid 1999 which will include both new and old material. Colin's "Vox Pop", also due in late 1999, will complete a release from each member of Wire for WMO. With regards to Wire proper, the same holds true. Between "Behind The Curatin" and the Peel Session disc, literally everything from the 70's era has been made available on Compact Disc. "Turns & Strokes" filled in the missing pieces from the post-154 era, and is very much a companion to "Document & Eyewitness". "Coatings" collected what was available from the 80's era for release and Mute was quite gracious in letting WMO license the material. The band specifically requested that no live material from that era be released. (My understanding is that Wire don't consider themselves a good proposition live and that IBTABA was their "live" album. FYI.) Any "live" recordings from that era however would also be the property of Mute Records. WMO does respect the band's wishes on what is made public, and would hope the public does to. WMO is also a finite proposition. We could conjur up releases ad infinitum, but gathering from the sentiments expressed on this list and sales of certain WMO releases, that isn't necessarily a good idea. We are commited to releasing a Dome record and a Colin Newman compilation. Please expect these releases in 1999. WMO represses what needs to be repressed - which so far is nothing. At sometime early next year, WMO will cease trading. At that point any unsold stock will have to be destroyed. ~ There is no "official" Wire video. There is an "unofficial" video. WMO does not "officially" condone "unofficial" product or the trading of such material. Over the years there has been talk of a "80's Video Compilation" which would be natural for Mute to release - Mute owns the copyright for all the Wire videos. That Mute haven't is anyones best guess - that it would not sell sufficient to afford the investment? If Mute can't do it then WMO can't. The other video item that could be released is the Rockpalast Concert from WDR circa 1978. For those of you who do not know of this, it is a live taping of a concert for tv that runs approx 90 min and is, by anyones standard, excellent. This is however, beyond the scope of WMO's ability. Certainly licensing cost, editing, mastering, duplication, format issues, to say the least about Video distribution, is something WMO simply can not tackle. Current thinking, however, is that someone like Restless Records - which has the EMI and MUTE backcatalog - would be a natural to release this item, if for no other reason to continue to promote that backcatalog! (There have been a few box sets recently - Gang of Four and XTC - I can only imagine that someone is watching the soundscans of those to make a decision!) The same logic applies to "Behind The Curtain" which EMI informs me as being "unavailable." You may contact Restless at http://www.restless.com ! Perhaps a concentrated and orchestrated effort by this list would help convince Restless that this would indeed be a good idea for them to release Behind the Curtain and The Rockpalast Video? Regarding Restless and Wire, say what people may, but I had no problem finding Wire material up until perhaps "Manscape." Between the CD's, the DAT, MTV and the Wire Videos, and all the CD singles and 12", there was significant "product" and exposure. "The Ideal Copy" was hands down the best selling Wire release ever at aproximately 50,000 copies. (PF now holds that laurel, but not the number). But, as I have been informed recently, there was quite a considerable build up to that album and each successive release sold fewer and fewer. Elektra cut-out (or deleted) "The First Letter", "The Drill" and "Document & Eyewitness" literally upon their release. it is still possible to find "long-box" versions of those cd's. It has also been suggested that Elektra still don't realize that Wire were once on their label! Again, Wire's lack of popularity squarely rests on the band and not Restless, or Mute for that matter. I'm also sure that if Wire wanted to be a more commercial proposition, then that too would have been within their scope. I'll sum this up with this: There seems to be a very strong sentiment that WMO does not release enough Wire proper - and that "you" aren't very happy with the Wire that WMO has released (JUST KIDDING hahaha.). But - almost everything (as has been accused by The Wire) that Wire created has been released and is available on compact disc from either EMI, Strange Fruit, Mute or WMO. What is left - the live concert from 1978 and live recordings from the 80's - is beyond WMO's scope at this point for reasons outlined above. It may, however, be within the reach of Restless or Mute. Let's turn our attention to them. charles/wmo - -------------------------------------------- wmo@interserv.com http://wiremailorder.com/ catalog@wiremailorder.com updated: November 11, 1998 - -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:55:53 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: Wire in the Studio / live - ---Robert Brammer wrote: > Showing how a song comes together is not "farting around in the > studio." It's an interesting look inside the band, yes it is only for > those who are "hardcore fans" of that band, but that's what WMO is for! > Okay, so maybe I lacked tact in that post, but I meant, 1)It would hardly be a viable release financially and, 2)It would probably one of those listen once, hmm, that was interesting, throw in a 'never listen to again' pile. Also, (2 and a half) BTC covered pre-rec Wire (demos / exps). Going back further one imagines a CD of a riff being played, "no, that's not quite right, play it in Cminor, okay, yeah, that beat ..." Also, progressions have been covered in another way: listen to the various versions of tracks such as Drill from the very first live takes in 1985 to the Reading version c1990 or Underwater experiences (1979-1991). > As for Rock Tributes they are a cheezy way to cash in on some one > elses brilliance, decidedly an "anti-wire" view. > > I would think more people here would appreciate an attempt at > creativity (even manscape, with its failings) as opposed to just > another derivative attempt, such as Elastica or another one of those > sound a like pop bands that makes all their cash emulating the past. Maybe. I certainly agree about the sound-alike bands but some of the tracks on Whore were much better than that. Resolution's It's a Boy and Scanner's Eardrum Buzz were fantastic tracks that were, IMO, far better than Wire's own versions. Granted though, there were far too many normal, run-of-the-mill rock takes on that collection. Dugga was different though - many of the tracks had bugger all to do with "Drill", after all the original is only a monotone beat if stipped bare. In fact, remove all traces of vocals from that release and I'd imagine it would be pretty difficult to work out they were a "drill" and, to my mind, several of the tracks stand up on their own merits anyway. RE: Wire live. Kind of a shame that Wire don't like their live output from their second period. Judging by what I've heard many of the tracks are actually improved!! Drill, most people will have heard on Bell but other tracks such as Ahead gain a whole new layer of energy and the live version of Small Black Reptile is wonderful. == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:32:35 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: -ping.pong- plagiarisation On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, M. Major, international megastar wrote: > Note: The following is completely plagiarized from Mr David Kettle > and his short essay on the subject, 'Plagiarism' > > "[This thread is really daft. All rock 'n' roll sounds like all other rock > 'n' roll, if you're talking about riffs. That's the whole point of it. > The syntax/grammar/lexicon is of necessity limited to a very few > rhythms/figures that approximate sexual congress and/or ritual > movement. The very idea of plagiarism in such a condensed form > misses the point entirely... > > There is never any plagiarism in r'n'r. The form is self plagiarising. This - along w/the comment about covers - misunderstands the point, I think. Chords and melodies are not the main distinguishing characteristics of most rock (this is why rap exists, incidentally) - the *sound* and its connotations are.* So the reason Elastica can be accused of ripping off Wire isn't just because they use the same chords, even the same rhythms, as Wire - it's because they also use similar sounds, approach, etc. That's why they *sound* like imitation Wire - not just because of the chords. Same reasons why good covers can be perfectly legitimate. I've nothing against carbon copies in a concert situation (or b-sides, bonus tracks, etc.); they serve to pay homage (esp. if they're fairly obscure). On album, though, I think it's much better when a band brings its own sense of arranging, tone, sound, rhythm to the cover: this is why the better songs on WHORE are those that sound *least* like Wire, and why IBTABA isn't the same record as the songs that are done on that title. * Think of the attitude toward the subject implied in the way the Beatles do "Nowhere Man" - and now imagine a cover of the same song by the Sex Pistols in vintage style. Johnny Rotten's attitude toward the subject would be wholly different - and as a result, the song would be, essentially, a different song, even thogh the chords & melodies would be approximately the same. To get back to the quoted comments at the beginning: I think attitudes that claim all rock is about "sexual congress and/or ritual movement" are ridiculously naive. I think rock is generally *embodied* music - but there's more to it than that, and *embodiment* isn't identical to sex (or ritual) - as if there's not a brain in any rocker's head. This guy (Kettle not Major) probably thinks classical's about the Mind and Spirit, too - idiot. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::The more you drive, the less intelligent you are:: __Miller, in REPO MAN__ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:01:08 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: 40-30?? plagiarisation - ---Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: >Chords and melodies are not the main distinguishing characteristics of most rock - the *sound* and its > connotations are.* So the reason Elastica can be accused of ripping off > Wire isn't just because they use the same chords, even the same rhythms, > as Wire - it's because they also use similar sounds, approach, etc. That's > why they *sound* like imitation Wire - not just because of the chords. Yes. The sound was very similar, iof a little lazier. On reflection on mine (and other's) recent posts I think I'd have a bit more respect for the likes of Elastica et al had they have either covered the original tracks and then screwed with them a la the best of Whore (as you mentioned - the best of those are the ones that are least like the originals, the reconstructions if you will). I did hear at one point that Elastica had planned to sample Three Girl Rhumba but decided not to in the end (maybe legal reasons?, maybe not). Had they have used the original, maybe added to it, then things may have been better. > > Same reasons why good covers can be perfectly legitimate. I've nothing > against carbon copies in a concert situation (or b-sides, bonus tracks, > etc.); they serve to pay homage (esp. if they're fairly obscure). Like the cover of Roadrunner that Wire did with the Ex-Lion Tamers!! > To get back to the quoted comments at the beginning: I think attitudes > that claim all rock is about "sexual congress and/or ritual movement" are > ridiculously naive. I think rock is generally *embodied* music - but > there's more to it than that, and *embodiment* isn't identical to sex (or > ritual) - as if there's not a brain in any rocker's head. I often wonder about such ideas, however more recent trends in music do seem to mirror older 'tribal' / 'ritual'(for want of better words) sounds. Jungle, for instance, and it's predecessors seems similar, at times, to ritual music. I guess it's do to a change in emphasis from melody to rhythm - music to move to rather than just listen to. == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:26:42 +0100 From: dieter.loos@ubs.com Subject: big black looks like most of you are into the "techno" side of wire. what about the guitar drone side. i was into that and got hooked with 'big black'. when they covered 'heartbeat' later, the circle closed. 'i cant believe' from the same single also sounds very much like wire. there are also some wire hints on their semiofficial live-boot 'the sound of impact': the album number is "not to (but one)" and somwhere in the liner notes it says "a seedy pink flag revenge". at the end of the 'pigpile' live-video gilbert and bruce join them onstage as the do 'heartbeat'. dieter ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #13 ******************************