From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #10 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, January 12 1999 Volume 02 : Number 010 Today's Subjects: ----------------- little celibate alarm ["Miles Goosens" ] radio radio [paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se] Re: radio radio [Chester Ward ] My North American Radio Rant! ["IBRAHIM BOZAI" ] Re: radio radio [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: radio radio (echo echo) [Craig Grannell ] Re: My North American Radio Rant! ["Mack" ] Re: My North American Radio Rant! [flaherty michael w ] Re: My North American Radio Rant! [Steve Loubert ] Re: My North American Radio Rant! [rivethead & soup_99 ] North American Radio Rant! [Brian ] Re: a bigger fucking deal ["aargh@erols.com" ] MP3's and internet radio ["Wilson, Chad" ] Wowzers! The PopeAlopes! [Chester Ward ] Re: radio radio ["tube disaster" ] Re: a bigger fucking deal [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:28:10 -0000 From: "Miles Goosens" Subject: little celibate alarm On Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:24:18 radareyes wrote: >Well, it looks like Charles has gotten himself & WMO in a bad situation >with the fans. Maybe instead of sending the original BIG FUCKING >WARNING flame message to the list where all the fans could see it he >should have sent it to only the four people that he mentioned who >actually have the unrecordable sacred holy grail high priced video (Oh, >I mean Uri's video) on this list. At the risk of prolonging this affaire de teapot, I myself do not own Uri's video yet. I will eventually, but I haven't been able to save up enough $$$ quite yet -- always something (Christmas, unexpected vet bill, etc.) taking the money. later, listowner Miles /====================================================================\ | Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com | | http://www.rsteviemoore.com outdoorminer@zdnetmail.com | | http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer | | | | "Why everything has to get in the way all the time I don't know." | | -- Janet Ingraham Dwyer | \====================================================================/ Free web-based email, anytime, anywhere! ZDNet Mail - http://www.zdnetmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:18:41 +0100 From: paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se Subject: radio radio to move away from video as a medium for discussion (!) i have a question. when is the last time anyone out there heard a wire / wire-related track on the radio and , if so , what station? for me (in the uk) i reckon the last thing i heard was "in vivo" , but its so long i can't really remember. ...........and as an aside , if you havn't heard colin's bastard album then i'd recommend making the effort. i loved A-Z and Not To but i found commercial suicide/it seems a bit bland and unengaging. "bastard" is a complete departure from that idea , very electro with very few vocals. great late - night listening. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:47:45 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Ward Subject: Re: radio radio - ---paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > > to move away from video as a medium for discussion (!) i have a question. when is the last time anyone out there heard a wire / wire-related track on the radio and , if so , what station? for me (in the uk) i reckon the last thing i heard was "in vivo" , but its so long i can't really remember. > > ...........and as an aside , if you havn't heard colin's bastard album then i'd recommend making the effort. i loved A-Z and Not To but i found commercial suicide/it seems a bit bland and unengaging. "bastard" is a complete departure from that idea , very electro with very few vocals. great late - night listening. > Just the other week I heard an entire Wire set on a college station that uses a bitcaster to put its live signal onto the 'net. Alas, I do not remember which one it was...it could have been WXYC out of Chapel Hill, NC, but don't quote me on that...I could be entirely wrong. It was a nice mix of older/later tunes, though. BTW...I understand in the pre-Pink Flag line-up there was a 5th member; I seem to think that his name was George something, but here again, my grey matter may decieve. Anybody who can fill in the details about the mysterious 5th member i.e. proper name, circumstances surrounding his departure, any projects he may have participated in since & are they worth my time to investigate, etc., please come forward. Cheers, CCW _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:20:18 -0500 (EST) From: "IBRAHIM BOZAI" Subject: My North American Radio Rant! On Jan 11, 5:18pm, paul.rabjohn@tunnplat.ssab.se wrote: > Subject: radio radio > to move away from video as a medium for discussion (!) i have a question. when is the last time anyone out there heard a wire / wire-related track on the radio and , if so , what station? for me (in the uk) i reckon the last thing i heard was "in vivo" , but its so long i can't really remember. > I think the last time I heard Wire on the radio was 5 or 6 years ago on "The All Request Breakfast" on CFNY FM in Toronto. It was "Life in the Manscape". CFNY is/was the local "alternative" station. About ten years ago, when I was falling out of love with Top 40 hits and becoming a guitar freak, the word Alternative meant any kind of popular music that didn't make the Top 40 (but often should have).... Now what's happened? Post-Nirvana music marketing has completely killed the sub-mainstream. Before that, there was room for weirdness in all its forms. I remember at 15 bopping to "French Kiss" by L'il Louis and A Guy Called Gerald, Public Enemy, De La Soul, Suicidal Tendencies, Siouxsie, and WIRE. I could go on and on, but the point is that all the new pop music (like Aphex etc) can't be found on TV or commercial radio. Now, if kids wanna hear something interesting, they really have to dig for it whereas, in the days before Nirvana (who were great btw) you could settle for whatever Muchmusic (Canadian music channel) or CFNY and still stumble across *colourful* things like Wire or the Smiths. I welcome criticism of this analysis! Maybe you Europeans can tell us what's happened in your areas. > ...........and as an aside , if you havn't heard colin's bastard album then i'd recommend making the effort. i loved A-Z and Not To but i found commercial suicide/it seems a bit bland and unengaging. "bastard" is a complete departure from that idea , very electro with very few vocals. great late - night listening. A lot of times I don't like things because they simply don't fit my mood. A-Z stumbles. A bit unsettling at times. Not To is nice and clean. Wicked pop songs. Remove For Improvement always reminded me of Madonna's "Dress You Up" and the Coatings version of Kidney kinda has that Belinda Carlisle flavour to it. Heard "Heaven On Earth" the other day - lovely! :) For a long time, Commercial Suicide could make me cry (not unlike "Viva Hate" by Morrissey) but not anymore I don't think. Maybe I'm colder. It Seems has two fantastic tracks but the rest of the tracks are basically love letters from C to M (and vice-versa I'm sure) but have always sounded pretty cheesy to me. Bastard has one truly awful track: g-deep. The rest of the tracks are "good" but not "amazing". The real masterpiece is the bonus disc: The Voice EP - probably the finest thing those two have done. Stunning. Top 40 tracks that are just wicked... Mark Morrisson "Return of the Mack" George Michael "Fastlove" That new Cher song (better than Hide!) Janet Jackson "Together Again" that's all i can remember...ummmm........ ibrahim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:29:44 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: radio radio Excerpts from mail: 11-Jan-99 Re: radio radio by Chester Ward@yahoo.com > BTW...I understand in the pre-Pink Flag line-up there was a 5th > member; I seem to think that his name was George something, but here > again, my grey matter may decieve. Anybody who can fill in the details > about the mysterious 5th member i.e. proper name, circumstances > surrounding his departure, any projects he may have participated in > since & are they worth my time to investigate, etc., please come > forward. That would be George Gill. I believe a couple tracks on BTC are co-credited to him. There's a picture of him on the web page; it's in the "other images" section and is called "an old picture of Wire". I think he left before they were even called Wire, but I'm not sure about that. He was into guitar solos and that sort of thing. The rest of the band wanted to go in a different direction, so they split. Kevin's book has some lyrics that George wrote; they sound like "working man's rock", a la Springsteen. I have no idea what George has done since then. I did a web search for him once and came up with nothing. On one of my tapes I have a version of "Mary is a dyke" with a gutiar solo that is probably George... Horrendous! Anyhow, regarding Wire on the radio... The last time I heard a Wire song was when I heard Elastica's "Connection". :) Before that, it would be in 1991 when I heard "So and slow" on a college radio station; the DJ was a friend of mine and was playing that song for me. Other than that, I have *never* heard Wire on the radio. :( (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:04:30 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: radio radio (echo echo) - ---Andrew N Westmeyer wrote: > > regarding Wire on the radio... The last time I heard a Wire > song was when I heard Elastica's "Connection". :) In the UK at least Wire songs got a limited amount of airplay as Elastica, Menswear et al came to light. Pink Flag stuff (obviously) seemed the most common. Peel plays a Wire track once in a blue moon also (the last one I heard was a few months back: I am the Fly). > Before that, it > would be in 1991 when I heard "So and slow" on a college radio station; So and Slow actually got a fair bit of play over here, largely due to the Orb mix as that band were quite big at the time (circa 'Little Fluffy Clouds, etc). Craig. == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:28:32 -0600 From: "Mack" Subject: Re: My North American Radio Rant! ... I remember at 15 bopping to "French Kiss" by L'il Louis and A Guy Called Gerald, Public Enemy, De La Soul, Suicidal Tendencies, Siouxsie, and WIRE. I could go on and on, but the point is that all the new pop music (like Aphex etc) can't be found on TV or commercial radio. Now, if kids wanna hear something interesting, they really have to dig for it whereas, in the days before Nirvana (who were great btw) you could settle for whatever Muchmusic (Canadian music channel) or CFNY and still stumble across *colourful* things like Wire or the Smiths.... And I remember listening to WABX in Detroit MI at that age (in the late 70's) hearling Stravinsly's 'Rite of Spring' segued into The Stooges 'Down in the Street', followed by Coltrane's Love Supreme (really!) and wondering where that kind of creativity dissappeared to in the '80s (though Canada was a suspect at that time) however, Volkswagon adverts in this country seem to do a decent job of giving a glimpse of yesteryear's cutting edge I still think the reason Psychic TV's Roman P was used for such a short while was that some corporate bean-counter questioned cutting a check to Genesis P'Orridge (What the hell?!) But we still get Spiritualized and the Orb. And it wouldn't supprise me to hear a clip of later Wire someday on NFL Sunday (tho I havn't yet) Search and Destroy and Revolution were radical in their time I submit that I am most likely too old to really understand what y'all will be waxing nostalgic about in another 10 or 15 years d ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:31:37 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: My North American Radio Rant! In the late 70s KFAI, a small radio station in Minneapolis, use to play Wire regularly--sometimes entire 20-30 minute sets. This was done simply because one the DJs at the time was (is) a big fan: me. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:20:06 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Intro. Being new to the list I found this weekend's rants funny, funny. But to move along I have been a Wire fan for about 20 years now. My favorites are the first three Japanese releases with the gazillion extra tracks. Pink Flag 38, Chairs Missing 28 and 154 24. Now if I could only find Commercial Suicide and It Seems. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:51:05 -0600 From: Steve Loubert Subject: Re: My North American Radio Rant! Michael Flaherty wrote: >In the late 70s KFAI, a small radio station in Minneapolis, use to play >Wire regularly--sometimes entire 20-30 minute sets. This was done simply >because one the DJs at the time was (is) a big fan: me. Believe it or not, this is where I first heard Wire. There was a DJ there who was playing "Manchester music" one night, and he played "Question of Degree", which knocked me over. KFAI (which couldn't have been more than 100 watts strong) was the only radio station in town that played "new wave" music back then, a couple of blocks in a week. I used to set up my reel-to-reel to record it so I could play it back all week. More recently, I heard "Map Reference" a couple of years ago on the late, lamented REV 105, the best commercial radio station I ever heard (subsequently bought out and destroyed by the forces of Disney). Radio K, a local college AM station, will occasionally play Wire (Three Girl Rhumba comes to mind). Other than that, radio sucks. You hear better, more adventurous stuff on TV in car and shoe commercials and in the background during football shows. It is absolutely disgusting. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:42:16 -0800 From: rivethead & soup_99 Subject: Re: My North American Radio Rant! Mack wrote: > I could go on and on, but the point is that > > all the new pop music (like Aphex etc) can't be found on TV or commercial > > radio. Now, if kids wanna hear something interesting, they really have to > > dig for it whereas, in the days before Nirvana (who were great btw) you > could > > settle for whatever Muchmusic (Canadian music channel) or CFNY and still > > stumble across *colourful* things like Wire or the Smiths.... Yes, it's pretty sad the state of commercial radio. But, I was suprised to find an internet radio site that is pretty good. Spinner.com plays a pretty varied selection of music. The programs are broken down into genres like indie, industrial, alterantive, punk and lots more. The sound quality is decent for internet radio (you need real audio). tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:09:13 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Ward Subject: Thanks re. George Gill & more radio... You all didn't waste any time with the answers to my query regarding the mysterious George Gill! Thanx a bunch for refreshing my ever waning memory!!! Also...my first exposure to Wire was on the radio. KRCL 91FM, public radio in Salt Lake City, UT, played the entirety of Chairs Missing when they first came on the air in '79. They always played entire LP's then since their collection was not large at the time....compilations were popular favorites, too, since that made 'em sound like they had more vinyl! It was all donated by us, the listeners. Wire recieved a fair amount of play until the mid 80s when the station regrouped to clean up its act and become acceptable for the whole family & grandma too. But for a few years there, the sleepy burg of SLC was treated to regular doses of Wire on the FM waves. KRCL was actually a ballsy station way back when....especially when you consider its location! Cheers! CCW _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:10:10 -0800 From: Brian Subject: North American Radio Rant! Who is accusing north america of having radio ? Haven't heard any since the WREK ga tech days of 8:00 a.m., Ace of spades followed by Ludwig Von. Kusf forget it ! You may want to check out www.goodnoise.com, www.mp3.com or www.resrocket.com rivethead & soup_99 wrote: > Mack wrote: > > > I could go on and on, but the point is that > > > > all the new pop music (like Aphex etc) can't be found on TV or commercial > > > > radio. Now, if kids wanna hear something interesting, they really have to > > > > dig for it whereas, in the days before Nirvana (who were great btw) you > > could > > > > settle for whatever Muchmusic (Canadian music channel) or CFNY and still > > > > stumble across *colourful* things like Wire or the Smiths.... > > Yes, it's pretty sad the state of commercial radio. But, I was suprised to > find an internet radio site that is pretty good. Spinner.com plays a pretty > varied selection of music. The programs are broken down into genres like > indie, industrial, alterantive, punk and lots more. The sound quality is > decent for internet radio (you need real audio). > > tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:36:23 -0500 From: "aargh@erols.com" Subject: Re: a bigger fucking deal > Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:24:22 -0800 > From: "charles / wmo" > Subject: RE: BIG FUCKING DEAL > > The LAST thing I will do is apologize for insulting bootleggers. In the > past three decades of record collecting - every type of music you can > possibly imagine - I have come to the conclusion that the sellers of > bootlegs and tapes at swap meets are "Smelly Old Men". Like it's said - > opinions are like assholes and everyone is one - myself included. > Bootlegging is illegal. As a record collector, I don't like it. As a > Record Label I take public a stand AGAINST it. Well, look, there's three very distinct things in what you're talking about, and I think you're getting them confused. 1) There is counterfeiting ..... this is what you're talking about. Someone buys Uri's video, dubs it, and sells it as his own exclusive. This is detestable in most cases, but I can see where the guys who did it with vinyl in Vietnam so that servicemen could know what was going on musically at home at the time was pretty cool. 2) There is bootlegging .... this is NOT what you're talking about. Someone has a tape of something like the Electric Ballroom show uncut, in its entirety, or that Dome show I was mentioning, and offers it to me for money. You could also apply this one to someone who presses it up on vinyl or CD and sells it. This is what those smelly old men are doing. They watch what you put out and make sure they cover what you're NOT putting out, were they interested in Wire. Believe it or not the guys who started Rhino started out like this and they went legit. Those few instances where Wire may have been bootlegged, it's a labor of love for the bootleggers because they're NOT going move that one quickly, unless in 10 years the general public starts viewing Wire like they do the Velvet Underground. 3) And of course there's tape trading, like Phishheads, Gongheads, or Deadheads. In those communities as well as ours, there's really a gentlemen's agreement that the only money involved is to cover costs and shipping. If there's enough in circulation among the fans and it is readily available, it's very easy to get the material at minimal cost to the fans, and spread the word more. > The source tapes for the Wire video were granted for the purpose of > compiling a tape for FANS. It was not meant to be a "collectors" item or > turned into a pirate tape for bootleggers to make a profit on. There is a > LOT more Wire video and audio in private collection that won't be made > available for this same risk. And if some of it leaks out to the bootleggers, then those bootleggers are going to make more of a profit because they have it and the fans don't. The answer is to make it readily available, like in the worlds of Phish, the Dead, Gong, etc. The more freely you circulate it, the more the stuff will get out and the more people will turn on to it. Enthusiastic fans will have a lot of stuff like this. You in turn can guarantee some sales by the virtue of upgrade. Someone's going to hear their zillionth generation tape, love it, and you come along and put out the same material for sale at the highest quality possible and you'll sell it to them in a heartbeat because they're going to be buying something at better quality they already know and love. We may still be talking about 400 copies max, but at least you'll have a certain percentage of them certain to go. > If you can't deal with the quality of Turns & Strokes, then I must assume > that you didn't like Document & Eyewitness - they both have the same > source tapes. What do you think - we kept the "clean" version under wraps > and released the shitty one? Please. There was nothing else to draw from. > And as for the asthetic of WMO catalog and it's packaging, I will > certainly make no apologies! You assume that I meant sound quality. I did not. As a tape collector I can tolerate an awful lot of generational loss, distortion, and recording errors, even glaring ones like those that plague Document & Eyewitness. I do not like the packaging of "Turns And Strokes" because it's extremely minimal, rather like a bootleg. How about comments from the band on how this material came to be recorded or created, or an essay describing what was intended by the creation of the material? Some historical perspective? Some of us weren't around at the time. We as fans are just as interested in the musicology aspects of Wire as we are in the actual music. At least there's a short essay that give a few tidbits about the show to make it more interesting in "Document and Eyewitness." It's not much at all, but it does give some insight as to what you're actually hearing on the recording. You lose an awful lot of the excitement by not being there and a few words about what was going on in the case of Document and Eyewitness allows me to imagine, for example, the tension that was going on during that show. There's enough information there to make me hungry to hear the entire show uncut - - - I'd love even to know what the entire setlist was. I also am hungry to know whether I could edit my own edition of that show with my computer out of what is released. That one essay teased me enough to turn Document And Eyewitness into my favorite Wire album and the one that started the obsession with the band in the first place, as opposed to mere admiration, which started with my seeing "Field Day For The Sundays" mentioned in a list of short rock songs in about 1980, and being intrigued by it enough to hear it, and being amazed that it actually has verses. > One thing I have found in the past five years is how little consumers - > and myself - know about the ramifications of a CD purchase. If I do post > too much self-importance, then that I will apologize for, but it is WITH > this knowledge that I post. Well, I have that knowledge too. I routinely loan out parts of my American 60's garage punk 45 collection (the MC5 and Stooges scene) to friends who do great reissue packages with indepth musicological studies of these bands. There's just as limited an audience for that stuff as there is for Wire. I feel a few words on what you're hearing makes a much better, more interesting package than just a nice, pretty graphic design and a track listing. How much could it possibly be to have a few comments on an extra overleaf or two or a paper insert for the album? These guys (Sundazed, Arf Arf, Voxx, Bomp) do 16-20 pages with every release, and sometimes I contribute. List price in the USA on every release? $14. And they make enough money to keep going. Bomp has been going on for over 20 years, Arf Arf will be 20 years old next year. > WMO is a very slim proposition. According to sound scans, less than 10% of > Wire fans that bought "Coatings" responded to the second disk offer, yet > not one respondent complained about its price. You could possibly view that as more than 90% of the Wire fans who bought "Coatings" had some sort of complaint over it, simply because they didn't respond. Ordinarily I wouldn't *tell* you that I didn't think it was worth it if I bought one. I just simply wouldn't buy another. > Since 1991, Wire's Drill > has less than 200 copies on sound scans. Sense would then dictate that > Dugga would not be a good idea. But WMO did it anyway. Why? WMO is a > luxury. This is a perfect example of the self-importance that I was talking about. Do stop, please. Let fans sing your praises. > The econmics that apply to Dischord apply because they sell THOUSANDS of > CD's. WMO doesn't - it sells HUNDREDS. There is no Wire "economy". That's > why and what I go on to this list about and that is why you don't see Wire > items at swap meets. If you could generate that interest you may possibly have something to worry about on that level. It is possible that in a few more years you may have something going because of the rash in the early 90's of Wire in American cut-out bins. This is how I found most of my Wire collection .... through Restless/Mute's deal that fell through, and Restless gets rid of the stock at cost. Their distribution was so shitty you couldn't get the stuff when it was supposed to have come out. Most of my consumption of the later scene and CD reissues were obtained that way, $2 to $5 apiece. I think one of the best deals that I got was Document and Eyewitness for $2 on CD -- not bad for a disc that I would take to a desert island. Others will too, and it may turn into a cash cow later through the fact that people who are interested in different music and willing to start a headturning band bought these things like this, and consequently they'll mention Wire as favorites. Now that I think about it, your worst enemies may be their liquidation and used record stores. Those are the ones you have far more to worry about in terms of us acquiring Wire material in places other than yours. My own purchase of Turns And Strokes was on vinyl in a shop that functions as a used record store most of the time. I paid $18 for the privilege of owning it on vinyl, which is four dollars more than I paid for my vinyl copy of the Propellerheads' recent album at the same shop. The owner is one of those "smelly old men" who routinely show up at swap meets and would gladly bootleg what you don't put out ... in fact he does. I acquired the one Wire show I have through trade with him and he will sell you a cassette of what he has if you have nothing to trade, $7 apiece. I view it as okay, because he invests the time to make one, real-time, and of course I have to buy the tape stock. But rest assured he's not making money off of Wire. He calls this act a labor of love because it's just not worth it to him to cart Wire to those shows. I wouldn't have a clue about Test Dept. or Sun Ra if it weren't for him, so everytime I listen to those things, I'm thankful he exists. > Most WMO releases don't break even. Letting the list know that is not > self-importance. It is survival. In five years of WMO, we have released 9 > CD's. I have served approximately 400 customers through the mail order. By > and large, the response has been favorable, and that alone has kept me > motivated to continue it. But the ONLY way it can continue is with DIRECT > support. If stating that on this list is self-importance then so be it. There's a difference between stating that and claiming that there are six people "keeping the Wire candle burning." Yes we know you work hard because of your love for Wire. We appreciate it, but I didn't think that needed to be said. RRR Records in Lowell counterfeit with permission Nurse With Wound's back catalog on cassette. They'll make you a cassette for $5 and they're totally in with Steve Stapleton and United Dairies. I would never have heard any of that if it weren't for them. Consequently Steve Stapleton gets money from me constantly nowadays. What you seem to be missing is that if we saw one of your Wire items counterfeited at a swap meet, we wouldn't buy that item knowing we could get it from you, because he's going to have his Led Zeppelin price on it. There might be a different situation if that guy considers mail order too aggravating, which most of the time it isn't for me. The average kid going in there might discover Wire by that counterfeit, search you out, and buy your stuff from you because he loved it. My entire point is that if you simply focus on the financial aspects of it and nothing more, yes he's getting some that you're not getting, but you might reap better than that guy did because the kid wanted to upgrade his copy or get what you have in addition to what he got from the counterfeiter. The counterfeiter may spark the interest and bingo! you have a new customer. There is a flipside: anyone who's interested in a bootleg on a consumer level is already so familiar with the legal albums that they're hungry for more and that's why they shop for bootlegs in the first place. They'll have gotten all of your stuff, and everything from Restless, EMI, etc. So they'd already have it before the counterfeiter got it. That's why he's only interested in what he can get that you *didn't* put out. If that unreleased material is circulating freely among fans for nothing more than the cost of the tape and the postage, like Phish or Dead or Gong, he's only going to make money from it if it's an influx of new fans that don't have access to a taping village. That's how he can make money from Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin, but not really from the Dead or Phish. Pink Floyd is getting more readily available on cassette because of the Italian bootlegs flooding the US market in '92 and '93. The Dead and Phish are getting to where if you need a show, you just throw out on the newsgroup what you want and ask others what they want and mix and match. Wouldn't that be nice if it were that way here? If there were a situation like that, even on this list, you generate interest in Wire for absolutely free, and when you put out your highest-quality version, those who have worn out their cassettes will get your version because it's far easier than searching out someone who hasn't worn out their cassette version, and you might have a genuine catalog item, rather than a fans-only item. You could start by putting a few mp3's of stuff you're considering at a slightly lower bandwidth, so that you'll still have the better quality but we'll have at least gotten to hear it and become interested, if Wire, Mute, etc. agree. You'll have a better idea of what to put out next because you'd be able to track our responses to hearing it, and you could see what would sell well for you. We in turn could trade it to our friends who may only have a passing interest in Wire in the interim and generate the interest for you; bootleggers might grab it, but probably not because of the lack of demand for them -- however if you don't risk, nothing happens. You wouldn't necessarily have to put whole shows ... just highlights. This is the way the Orb got to be an automatic purchase for me -- unheard, unseen, whatever it is it's going into the collection -- by downloading rare stuff from the web. Wire aren't quite that way for me yet, but they're close -- how are you going to convince me that what you got is what I really want other than saying here it is? Recordings of what's already out are okay if I haven't gotten it yet, but you'd spark my interest and enthusiasm a lot more if you dangled the carrot and if that dangled carrot was really good, you'd instantly have a purchase from me. After a few switchovers of what's available for download, you could compile what you dangled, and still try to generate interest that way ... we'd already be somewhat familiar with it, and only the diehards would download everything anyway. You can make WMO a much better thing than it is if you try ... you're almost there. If you think about it, the Residents are doing the exact same thing you're doing, and it took them a few years before it started being something other than a labor of love for them. You may need to focus on the investment rather than the mundane. What you're doing has such a cult/sleeper nature anyway that if you simply hang on and come up with interesting ways to spark our interest and dangle the carrot to us, you'll end up with something much bigger and better and WMO releases can break even. Sincerely, Keef. ================================================== Miles Goosens R. Stevie Moore website, now with sound! http://www.rsteviemoore.com My personal page, all silent all the time: http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles Join the Wire Mailing List: http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/wire ================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:32:56 -0800 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: MP3's and internet radio Speaking of internet Radio. I think MP3's and internet radio streams (real audio) are your best bets for hearing "cool" music nowadays. I wonder if bands like Wire and their respective labels will ever consider releasing older music into the hands of sites like "Customdisc.com" and "mp3.com"... I can never pass up an opportunity to plug my own work, my band the PopeAlopes (10 year old band, from the same scene as Thin White Rope / True West etc...)is releasing our new album ENTIRELY on mp3.com. 8 tracks 38 minutes this friday. We have had no luck with even "college" radio around our area and are turning to the net to catch up with our mainly European fan base. You are all invited to download the two free tracks we will have there! http://www.mp3.com/poealopes Chad - -----Original Message----- From: Brian [mailto:bbarnett@grin.net] Sent: Monday, January 11, 1999 4:10 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: North American Radio Rant! Who is accusing north america of having radio ? Haven't heard any since the WREK ga tech days of 8:00 a.m., Ace of spades followed by Ludwig Von. Kusf forget it ! You may want to check out www.goodnoise.com, www.mp3.com or www.resrocket.com rivethead & soup_99 wrote: > Mack wrote: > > > I could go on and on, but the point is that > > > > all the new pop music (like Aphex etc) can't be found on TV or commercial > > > > radio. Now, if kids wanna hear something interesting, they really have to > > > > dig for it whereas, in the days before Nirvana (who were great btw) you > > could > > > > settle for whatever Muchmusic (Canadian music channel) or CFNY and still > > > > stumble across *colourful* things like Wire or the Smiths.... > > Yes, it's pretty sad the state of commercial radio. But, I was suprised to > find an internet radio site that is pretty good. Spinner.com plays a pretty > varied selection of music. The programs are broken down into genres like > indie, industrial, alterantive, punk and lots more. The sound quality is > decent for internet radio (you need real audio). > > tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:04:19 -0800 (PST) From: Chester Ward Subject: Wowzers! The PopeAlopes! Somebody slipped me a copy of a tape of your band playing live in what sounded like a barn. I forget who...actually might have been someone involved with a Thin White Rope tour, but I digress.....I loved it! I spilled beer on it! My friend Richard stole it when he moved away! Nice to see ya on the Wire list....and if you know what tape I mean (I think there was a Lisa F. reference in some offstage banter somewhere) and would be so kind as to dub ma a copy, I'd be eternally grateful!!! Cheers! CCW _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:22:06 -0800 From: "tube disaster" Subject: Re: radio radio >Excerpts from mail: 11-Jan-99 Re: radio radio by Chester Ward@yahoo.com >> BTW...I understand in the pre-Pink Flag line-up there was a 5th >> member; I seem to think that his name was George something, but here >> again, my grey matter may decieve. Anybody who can fill in the details >> about the mysterious 5th member i.e. proper name, circumstances >> surrounding his departure, any projects he may have participated in >> since & are they worth my time to investigate, etc., please come >> forward. > >That would be George Gill. I believe a couple tracks on BTC are >co-credited to him. There's a picture of him on the web page; it's in >the "other images" section and is called "an old picture of Wire". > >I think he left before they were even called Wire, but I'm not sure >about that. He was into guitar solos and that sort of thing. The rest >of the band wanted to go in a different direction, so they split. >Kevin's book has some lyrics that George wrote; they sound like "working >man's rock", a la Springsteen. > >I have no idea what George has done since then. I did a web search for >him once and came up with nothing. On one of my tapes I have a version >of "Mary is a dyke" with a gutiar solo that is probably George... >Horrendous! > I seem to recall that he wound up playing guitar in a pretty decent (judging from the one single I have) punk band called the Bears, whose Insane 7" was a highly prized release on the legendary Good Vibrations label. Indeed, I just dragged out my sole Bears record, the On Me/Wot's Up Mate 7", which includes (oddly enough) the band members' autographs on the back of a photo of the band ... the third one is definitely "George Gill." If anybody finds a copy of their (fairly recently released) live LP, Insane, I've been looking for it for most of this decade. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:42:35 -0600 (CST) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: a bigger fucking deal On Mon, 11 Jan 1999, aargh@erols.com wrote: > 3) And of course there's tape trading, like Phishheads, > Gongheads, or Deadheads. In those communities as well as ours, > there's really a gentlemen's agreement that the only money > involved is to cover costs and shipping. If there's enough in > circulation among the fans and it is readily available, it's very easy > to get the material at minimal cost to the fans, and spread the word > more. While there was much in Keef's Johnny-Wadd-sized post worth reading, this is , I think, the key point. I don't think anyone here isn't grateful WMO exists, and I think most of us are also aware that Charles has done lots of work to make this so. But it's precisely the fact that the margins for Wire material are so low that the Smelly Old Man problem isn't terribly major: there's no money in it for them. That would happen only if somehow Wire became Huge. And if Wire became Huge, and people like us *traded* tapes, videos, etc., there'd still be no market for Smelly Old Outsiders - we'd have it already. And if WMO officially released any of that product, in the wake of Wire's hypothetical Hugeness, it would be us (an expanded "us") who buy it - because we'd want the real quality, w/the real graphics, notes, etc. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n The Architectural Dance Society www.uwm.edu/~jenor/reviews.html ::PLEASE! You are sending cheese information to me. I don't want it. ::I have no goats or cows or any other milk producing animal! __"raus"__ ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #10 ******************************