From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V2 #9 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, January 11 1999 Volume 02 : Number 009 Today's Subjects: ----------------- I want to know more about WMO [Robert Brammer ] [none] ["charles / wmo" ] Re: BIG FUCKING WARNING [steam fist futurist ] synchronicity [steam fist futurist ] RE: BIG FUCKING DEAL ["charles / wmo" ] Re: BIG FUCKING DEAL [rivethead & soup_99 ] Re: BIG FUCKING WARNING [radareyes@webtv.net] Re: Rolling on BIG FUCKING WARNING [Brian ] Hey, c'mon, chill out. [Craig Grannell ] Re: Wire Video ["charles / wmo" ] Re: Lower the fucking price ["Wilson, Paul" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:32:36 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Brammer Subject: I want to know more about WMO Okay, I want to know more about WMO! How did it start? Are you guys friends of the band and one day they said, "Hey, we should be able to put out whatever we want, will you manage our label?" Or was it, "Well, I'm drunk, lets start a label!" Or, "We need to launder some money for the sinister mega global Corporation!" "Muhahah, we'll start a label, and charge high prices." "Great Idea, I love exploiting Music fans, Muhaha." Seriously though, how did it start? After all, i'd like to know, so I can model a label, after it, solely dedicated to keeping the works of David Hasslehoff alive! Smelly Old Man, Robert. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 09:27:00 -0800 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: [none] >From my viewpoint, the only difference between you >and the smelly old men is that you have the band's blessing and >they don't. Of course this somehow makes you more valid than >them -- snicker, snicker. WMO pays royalites for the right to do what we do - that's not a small difference, it's all the difference. I will apoplogize for any personal insult - none was intended - but I won't apologize for my stance or opinion on bootlegging or smelly old men! charles/wmo wmo@interserv.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:37:01 -0500 (EST) From: steam fist futurist Subject: Re: BIG FUCKING WARNING This never made it to the list - reposting. - -----Original Message----- From: Joe Turner To: charles / wmo Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 6:22 AM Subject: Re: BIG FUCKING WARNING On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, charles / wmo wrote: > >Anyone on this list interested in putting together a compilation of classic > >Wire / solo videos for me? I have a huge collection of videos to trade of > >everything from rare prog and Krautrock through really rare Bob Dylan and > >Stones, Bowie, Residents, Jam etc. up to the various Rat Pack celebs. > >If anyone's willing, I'm sure we could work something out... > >Email me if interested, thanks and Happy New Year!! > >- - Robert Jazz > > Just a warning to the list - if you send Uri's video to someone like this, > they're gonna copy it and sell it at swap meets etc, to whoever whatever. My god, what prompted this rant? You don't know Robert Jazz at ALL, Charles. What gave you the right to make such sweeping assumptions? You don't even know if he was on the list when Uri's video was originally advertised -- he may be totally clueless about that particular video ENTIRELY! Robert's one of the founders of the band "V. Majestic", as well as being one of the main organizers behind the first "Terrastock" benefit festival of 1997, which probably did more for the true spirit of eclectic music than you'll ever hope to be associated with. (That's "benefit" as in "not for profit"; does WMO product get sold at -cost-?) > I'm all for free trade but understand the ramifications of distributing > Copyrighted material, especially that obtained from the Wire "circle of > friends". Well aren't we just a bit elitist. The world is a free place, and if someone asks for an even trade, it's his or her right to do so without groundless accusations being made on their behalf. While I understand there's this "wait until Uri makes his money back" idea, I don't think that's stopped anyone from making a copy or two for non-list friends, and there's nothing you can do about it. And, again, how do you know he's talking about Uri's video? You don't! > I see a lot of smelly old men selling bootleg videos and music from the > back of their cars and at swap meets. I can't beleive the jump in logic you just made here. Have you been possessed by space aliens? No reasonable human would ever make the assumptions you're making here. Robert simply said "I'd like to trade". Where's the bit about being a smelly man ripping teenagers off? Did that part of his post only make it to your mailbox and not mine? Or are you just being obnoxiously paranoid? (I'm betting the latter.) > What Andrew, Miles, Uri, Kevin and I are doing is what keeps the Wire > candle burning. By keeping the Wire Video in our "circle", it stays with > people who care about the music, and not... the Rat Pack? (like a Wire > fan cares about that) I guess I'd better dump all my ELO and Negativland CDs and only carry Wire-related product, because otherwise I'm not a Wire fan, I guess. ARE YOU INSANE??? Where is it written that Wire fans can't have eclectic taste? Almost by definition, a Wire fan has eclectic taste! Did you drink cough syrup this morning? Are you having a bad week at work? What? > This guy may or may not be a fan, (I'd say not) but I for one have a > problem with this posting to a what is a 'fan list'. It's like porno on > newsgroups. Once he gets the video - the quality goes down and price and > generations go up. Miles? Thank you for being psychic and reading Mr. Jazz's mind. I have no doubt he loves Wire the same way any of us does. You are so full of crap in this post that it amazes me I actually read what I read. Go to the back of the class and sit in the corner. You should be ashamed. /joe |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| | Joe Turner | cutter@bronze.lcs.mit.edu | cutter@abunai.com | 617/924-8558 | |-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-| www.abunai.com : now with streaming audio! goto www.abunai.com:8000 in winamp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:43:38 -0500 (EST) From: steam fist futurist Subject: synchronicity What timing - my repost goes through just as Charles apologizes. No replies to my lengthy post need be forthcoming. /j ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:24:22 -0800 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: RE: BIG FUCKING DEAL The LAST thing I will do is apologize for insulting bootleggers. In the past three decades of record collecting - every type of music you can possibly imagine - I have come to the conclusion that the sellers of bootlegs and tapes at swap meets are "Smelly Old Men". Like it's said - opinions are like assholes and everyone is one - myself included. Bootlegging is illegal. As a record collector, I don't like it. As a Record Label I take public a stand AGAINST it. The source tapes for the Wire video were granted for the purpose of compiling a tape for FANS. It was not meant to be a "collectors" item or turned into a pirate tape for bootleggers to make a profit on. There is a LOT more Wire video and audio in private collection that won't be made available for this same risk. ~ If you can't deal with the quality of Turns & Strokes, then I must assume that you didn't like Document & Eyewitness - they both have the same source tapes. What do you think - we kept the "clean" version under wraps and released the shitty one? Please. There was nothing else to draw from. And as for the asthetic of WMO catalog and it's packaging, I will certainly make no apologies! ~ One thing I have found in the past five years is how little consumers - and myself - know about the ramifications of a CD purchase. If I do post too much self-importance, then that I will apologize for, but it is WITH this knowledge that I post. WMO is a very slim proposition. According to sound scans, less than 10% of Wire fans that bought "Coatings" responded to the second disk offer, yet not one respondent complained about its price. Since 1991, Wire's Drill has less than 200 copies on sound scans. Sense would then dictate that Dugga would not be a good idea. But WMO did it anyway. Why? WMO is a luxury. The econmics that apply to Dischord apply because they sell THOUSANDS of CD's. WMO doesn't - it sells HUNDREDS. There is no Wire "economy". That's why and what I go on to this list about and that is why you don't see Wire items at swap meets. Most WMO releases don't break even. Letting the list know that is not self-importance. It is survival. In five years of WMO, we have released 9 CD's. I have served approximately 400 customers through the mail order. By and large, the response has been favorable, and that alone has kept me motivated to continue it. But the ONLY way it can continue is with DIRECT support. If stating that on this list is self-importance then so be it. ~ In closing, I will apologize for assuming the initial post was anthing more than an innocent request between fans. It didn't seem that way to me, thus my post. I may be one crazed individual. Even more so to the people that know me. But I'm quite happy like this! charles snider wmo@interserv.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:22:41 -0800 From: rivethead & soup_99 Subject: Re: BIG FUCKING DEAL Am I missing the point? If WMO has access to Wire video and can obtain legal permission, why don't you release an "official" Wire video? You obviously know your consumer base (400 +/- customers) so a limited edition release should be possible. You are concerned about the material being available to Wire fans...so a break even situation should be in keeping with your idealology. Tom charles / wmo wrote: > The LAST thing I will do is apologize for insulting bootleggers. In the past > three decades of record collecting - every type of music you can possibly > imagine - I have come to the conclusion that the sellers of bootlegs and > tapes at swap meets are "Smelly Old Men". Like it's said - opinions are like > assholes and everyone is one - myself included. Bootlegging is illegal. As a > record collector, I don't like it. As a Record Label I take public a stand > AGAINST it. > > The source tapes for the Wire video were granted for the purpose of > compiling a tape for FANS. It was not meant to be a "collectors" item or > turned into a pirate tape for bootleggers to make a profit on. There is a > LOT more Wire video and audio in private collection that won't be made > available for this same risk. > charles snider > wmo@interserv.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:24:18 -0600 (CST) From: radareyes@webtv.net Subject: Re: BIG FUCKING WARNING Well, it looks like Charles has gotten himself & WMO in a bad situation with the fans. Maybe instead of sending the original BIG FUCKING WARNING flame message to the list where all the fans could see it he should have sent it to only the four people that he mentioned who actually have the unrecordable sacred holy grail high priced video (Oh, I mean Uri's video) on this list. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 14:52:34 -0800 From: Brian Subject: Re: Rolling on BIG FUCKING WARNING You Guy's have me rolling on the floor! radareyes@webtv.net wrote: > Well, it looks like Charles has gotten himself & WMO in a bad situation > with the fans. Maybe instead of sending the original BIG FUCKING > WARNING flame message to the list where all the fans could see it he > should have sent it to only the four people that he mentioned who > actually have the unrecordable sacred holy grail high priced video (Oh, > I mean Uri's video) on this list. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:23:35 -0800 (PST) From: Craig Grannell Subject: Hey, c'mon, chill out. Dear all, Hey, c'mon everyone. Let's just -chill out- a bit. This is turning slowly into a warped and somewhat sad little flame list at the moment (iMusic anyone???). Please, let's stop all this rubbish now before so many bridges get burned that the list falls silent. Charles was both right AND wrong in various parts of his posts, he said so himself. He apologized. He has his reasons for saying what he did as do those people who vehomently responded. It's all getting a bit -personal- though for a situation which is often so "six of one, half a dozen of the other". A few recents: WMO doing a video: mastering of videos (at least in my personal experience of video/CD production) is more expensive than CDs. Of course, CDs are usable worldwide whereas vids aren't (PAL, NTSC, SECAM, etc). Boots: everyone has their scruples. So long as the people who created the material aren't getting burned ... blah blah blah ... WMO: overpriced?? Well, I didn't think much of T&S (and not all of it was from the D&S masters - some was much more lo-fi) BUT (yes, BUT) I thought Penguin Island was a complete BARGAIN at 11 quid. Excellent LP! Coatings too was a very well priced album. As Charles said, WMO have released 9 CDs. Without that label most, if not all that material would never have seen the light of day. I have quite a high personal level of criticism of music (and my taste is pretty wide) yet I think most of the WMO releases were (are) worthwhile. I could go on but I'd probably just end up pissing people off for some reason with the current ambiance so ... Later all, Craig. == - ---------------------------- Craig Grannell-------------- www: SNUB.COMMUNICATIONS - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk Wireviews - http://www.snub.dircon.co.uk/wirehome.html - ---------------------------- cngrannell@yahoo.com ------- "Creativity is the highest civilising faculty - Ben Okri" - --------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:04:58 -0800 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re: Wire Video >Am I missing the point? If WMO has access to Wire video and can obtain legal >permission, why don't you release an "official" Wire video? You obviously know >your consumer base (400 +/- customers) so a limited edition release should be >possible. You are concerned about the material being available to Wire >fans...so a break even situation should be in keeping with your idealology. > >Tom To some extent - there is no guarantee that EVERYONE will buy it. If a hundred people respond and say they want something - maybe 10% will actually order. Thus, 400 turns into 40. Second, legal permission is not synonymous with "free". Mute, Opal and WDR own the masters to the videos, we would more than likely have to provide an advance. Then there are the video editing and mastering costs, package design, duplication, NTSC and PAL issues... All for 40 people? Believe us, if there is a way to get a video released, WMO will try to do it. charles/wmo wmo@interserv.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:48:12 -0000 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: Re: Lower the fucking price Well I paid out £30 and I'm very happy with it. I certainly wouldn't have been happy if I'd had to get a several generations old copy, even for a tenner. You get what you pay for. In the past, I've paid out £15 for commercially available videos of 20 to 30 minutes length, so value wise, the Wire video is excellent. I wouldn't dream of making a copy for anyone, unless it became unavailable. Whilst there a legitimate source for the video, BUY IT, don't copy it! Paul K W ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V2 #9 *****************************