From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #94 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, July 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 094 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: eno & wire -Reply [Stephen Harper ] Re: eno & wire -Reply [#rciscon ] Re: blubbing to blubber [#rciscon ] RE: eno & wire -Reply [Aaron Mandel ] Manscape (Sequencing isn't just a MIDI thing) [Eric Scott ] Lorries [Andrew N Westmeyer ] more on Eno [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Prag Vec and others.. [info@massproduktion.y.se (Massproduktion)] Brazil and other matters ["Steve Jackson" ] Re: Brazil and other matters ["JH3" ] Couldn't Sleep ["Wilson, Chad" ] Re: Brazil and other matters ["Steve Jackson" ] Re: Couldn't Sleep ["Steve Jackson" ] Re: Brazil and other matters [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Brazil and other matters [Dave Walker ] Angela Conway.. [CliveNice@aol.com] Re: Angela Conway.. [] Off topic-Bill Nelson [Lizard4663@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:43:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Harper Subject: Re: eno & wire -Reply flaherty michael w wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Stephen Harper wrote: >> Although Eno's solo records from the 70s are my all-time faves, I don't care for much after '78, so I for one don't regret Eno's absence from 154. > > As 154 is from '79 this doesn't make a great deal of sense to me, but I > don't miss Eno either. It's difficult to imagine this record being much > better. > Michael Flaherty > Let me clarify: since Eno (for me) was in decline in the late 70s, I'm not greatly concerned that he didn't have a hand in producing 154. How dare you suggest that I don't know my release dates! (just joking) As for Eno listening, I'd recommend starting with Taking Tiger Mountain (the most accessible in a pop sense), moving on to Jets, Before and After Science and finally Another Green World. I suppose it all depends on where you're coming from and what are your expectations. Stephen == If a great man could make us understand him, we should hang him - George Bernard Shaw _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 09:19:33 -0500 From: #rciscon Subject: Re: eno & wire -Reply > >Eno certainly had the midas touch - in the 70s (Roxy, Bowie, Talking >Heads in particular). But look at the garbage he's tried to salvage >since then (U2). Although Eno's solo records from the 70s are my >all-time faves, I don't care for much after '78, so I for one don't >regret Eno's absence from 154. Anyway, I don't know if Graham and >Bruce, in particular, could have co-existed easily with the brilliant >control-freak. Go ahead, flame this young dinosaur! >== I'm a bit of an Eno fan myself, especially his collaboration with John Cale, 'Wrong Way Up'. Really a sweet album. BTW, someone mentioned Eno's 'Kings Lead Hat'..... are you all aware that the title of that song is an anagram for 'Talking Heads'? I found this out in the liner notes of Ultravox's Rare album, where they covered the song live early in their Midge Ure period. Ray Ciscon "The palindrome for Bolton would be Notlob." - M. Python ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 09:19:32 -0500 From: #rciscon Subject: Re: blubbing to blubber >This has a lot to do with nothing that we've been discussing >recently..but..the end of Kidney Bongoes is great (and i usually don't like >Graham's voice...but he really excels there.....I also liked his singing a >lot >on the Piano Tuner song , from Document and Eyewitness) > >Blubb.. >Robert. My thoughts on Graham's voice are very binary, either I love it, or I can't stand it. But you are 100% correct about his singing on the end of 'Kidney Bingos'.... truly wonderful, and a perfect fit for one of my favorite Wir/e songs. Even my wife Tonya, who's not the biggest Wire fan (in fact, if we're in the car, she makes me skip ANY version of 'Drill'--- which she claims is as annoying for her as a dentists drill), likes the end of 'Kidney Bingos', but not the lyrics..... "They don't make any sense", she says. This does not surprise me, because my wife, who I love for many other reasons besides her taste in music, complained to me soon after we moved in together that we always listened to my music and not hers. I quickly asked her how many CD's she thinks I own. She guessed, rather accurately, about 400-500. I asked her how many CD's she owned before we moved in together. She said 4, three of which were Madonna CD's I also pointed out. This pretty much defused that argument. BTW, despite my fear of being hit with sticks, pointed or otherwise, have any of you listened to Madonna's latest album she made with William Orbit? If you could get rid of Madonna's awful singing, it wouldn't be a bad William Orbit CD. Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 11:02:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: RE: eno & wire -Reply On Mon, 27 Jul 1998 auteur@ix.netcom.com wrote: > >Another Green World has two of his best songs from that period > >("Backwater" and "King's Lead Hat" > > Erm....these are actually on "Before and After Science", AAAAARGH! hope nobody rushed out and bought the wrong one. miles, did you say Spoon finished their set with a Wire cover the other night? what song? a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:12:48 +0000 From: Eric Scott Subject: Manscape (Sequencing isn't just a MIDI thing) Hello All: Without encouraging another debate on the (perceived) flaws from this album, I would like to encourage those who bought the U.S. copy of "Manscape" (on Enigma, rather than the UK vers. on Mute) to allow themselves to hear the tracks in their 'original' (UK) sequence, which in my opinion, builds more effectively, offers a better dynamic, etc... Apparently, Enigma didn't seem to feel this way. For those of you with programmable CD players who wish to show Enigma the error of their ways, that's: 1. 3 2. 10 3. 7 4. 5 5. 6 6. 4 7. 11 8. 9 9. 8 10. 13 (optionally, one might add the 'bonus' tracks at the end...they were not in the original Manscape sequence, but on a bonus CD packaged with the UK release...) My initial response to the album was also underwhelming (initially), until I gave the track order a fair shot! Pardon my French, but it was the *US release* which f***ed everything up, *not the songs themselves...but that's my humble opinion. Eric ericscott@dayfornight.com > Excerpts from mail: 27-Jul-98 Re: eno & wire -Reply by Lizard4663@aol.com > > Was anybody else as disappointed with "Manscape" as I was? > > Yikes! We can forgive you since you're new to the list. But the > discussion went something like this: > > person #1: Manscape sucks. > person #2: Manscape rules. "Children of Groceries" rocks my world. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:38:12 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: eno & wire -Reply On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > In addition to having made Eno rich, U2 are good friends, which I suspect > > is why he hasn't dropped them. > > Or could it be that he also *likes* their music, even though lotsa folks > on this list don't? Your right, of course. I should have added that Eno rarely sticks with anyone for as long as he has with U2, and for this reason I think their friendship might be what keeps him involved. > Sorry to be cranky - but putting down U2 is just *too* easy and obvious, > and I would hope Wire fans, of all people, wouldn't resort to the E&O. Oh, come on Jeff. When this list is active it hits easy targets regularly. We just notice it more when it's someone we like (for example, my defence of John Cale--the same post cut down several other people, but I didn't care about them, so I barely noticed.) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:24:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Lorries Thanks to some critical help... Here are the "official" lyrics to "Lorries". (Now if anyone wants to figure out the version on Turns & Strokes, you're on your own!) Andrew - --- Always descriptive, lorries green or blue Backwards from Italy or Czechoslovakia Looking east, demand or fashion for Alaska or China Soixante nouveau [Sixties new] Lieb diech?, bateaux [love you, boats] WARSAW, TREPTOW [Capital of Poland, District of East Berlin] VENEZIA (VENICE) Oslo (Moscow) Looking east, clearer green or blue Come from this place, I think it's called Europe Symbol fashion, a submarine Europe, a submarine Europe - --- (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: more on Eno And to bring the Eno discussion to a close, here are some inside comments from Colin... Andrew - --- >Well Hail's videos were done for Opal, which is run by Brian Eno's wife... >think the 154 story was that Wire wanted Eno to produce it. perhaps...... Graham & Bruce did. I always thought it would be a bad idea even though I was a massive fan. >KS Eden, Wire's biographer, did his thesis on Brian Eno's music. I believe >that Eno was living in Belgium at the same time Colin was... He visited us once, he has family there. He's a nice enough bloke but was mainly interested in watching the football. BTW - The real connection is that Eno was a visting lecturer at Watford Art school where I was a student and Bruce was ex-technician. Hansjorg Meyer ou= r 2nd year tutor used to give me & Peter Schmidt (co-author of Oblique Strategies & also a tutor at Watford) lifts back to London. On days when Eno visted he would join the party and we'd all get stoned together! During this period I would often start the day by skinning up and listening to "Here Come the Warm Jets". The Warm Jets by the way are an APPALLING retro-punk band being industry touted right now. In '78 I listened to Before and After Science almost non-stop, but perhaps the most lasting has been Discreet Music. "The True Wheel" certainly influenced more than one Wire song under my pen!= ! When I started singing I regarded Eno & Wyatt as my sole vocal influences (because technically neither of them could sing) While we are on the connections between Wire Members & Ex-Members of Roxy music, Juliet (Grahams ex) was an old flame of Bryan Ferry, for whom she works now. - --- (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:44:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: info@massproduktion.y.se (Massproduktion) Subject: Prag Vec and others.. Puh ! This list just expoded for the last months. I was on holiday for two weeks and it took some time to catch up. So heres some replies to off topic questions a bit late: Uri wrote: >I used to see the Passions in '80, they were great and had a terrific first >LP. They never recovered from their minor hit with 'german film star'. I loved their first album and "Hunted" but later...Nope. >I believe that they were fronted by one of the 'grogan?' sisters >the other was the lead singer with 'Prag Vec' who I remember fondly. I really liked Prag Vec. I loved their singel and EP and also saw them live in London. Really Great. But something happened when they did the album. Not very good. But what happened to the band later? Did any of them continue in other bands? Anyone? Charles wrote: > The other band I haven't seen someone talk about is Fad Gadget. Great > Great great stuff. Though once he turned into Frank Tovey - I don't know - it > all turned folk or something... What can I say. Great stuff. Would have been worldfamous if you ask me.. Steve wrote: >Speaking of which, any other Pere Ubu fans out there? Now we are really talking. Modern Dance - one of the best album ever made. And I really do like the voice of David Thomas. But I also strongly recommend Cloudsongs which shows that they also can write fantastic popsongs. Have not heard the latest one. Is it worth buing? When it comes to Wire there is bands that had something in common with Wire for a short while (Gang of Four, Mekons, Passage, Fall etc ) but the interesting thing is that they only walked the same path for a short while and Wire was under constant development (even though I dont like all the strange ways that they may have been down) and that is more than you can say about a lot of bands. Respect ! Thats all for the moment. Mats ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:19:37 +0100 From: "Steve Jackson" Subject: Brazil and other matters More questions.... Why is the song "Brazil" called Brazil? Why does "106" beat "that"? (I always thought it referred to sexual conquests, in the context of the lyric) Do you think "Fragile" has a tongue stuck firmly in a cheek, or is it sincere? Isn't "Ambitious" (ABIACUIIS version ) sexually charged? Do I have a preoccupation with matters of a sexual nature considering my recent questions re. "Ahead" and some of these questions? Help and advice appreciated. Steve (reasonably healthy and well-adjusted) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:36:34 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: Brazil and other matters From: Steve Jackson : >Why does "106" beat "that"? (I always thought it referred to >sexual conquests, in the context of the lyric) I think it's because the song has exactly 106 beats in it, isn't it? So it should actually be "106 beats, that." They just left out the comma. I've wondered about "Brazil" myself, though lately I seem to have less time on my hands for such things... :^) John H. Hedges ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:53:21 -0700 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: Couldn't Sleep I was having trouble getting to sleep last night so I thought it would be a good time (2am) to visit 154 in the headphones. I decided to pay particular attention to the guitars and to some extent the keyboards. I found that there will probably never be a more "balls out" "nasty" and simply amazing guitar sound as the ones on "Should have known better" and "Touching Display" both of those songs can send perma-chills down ones arm! Somebody on the list mentioned that Wire never made them cry, which I find amazing. I can remember when I was younger and in love (1991 in this example...) and after the relationship dissolved I actually used those two songs to get my emotions moving, to get me out of the shock and into the healing... don't mean to get all sensitive on everyone's ass but, you know what I mean? Anyone else been there? I didn't spend much time on the rest of the songs, yes I like them all but I had to replay those two until I couldn't stand anymore. A little off topic but easily as powerful, on a quest to somehow one up the 154 guitar sound I turned to Thin White Ropes' "Spoor" and "In the Spanish Cave" where I believe even the great guitar sounds of 154 meet their match. Even better are the live versions of "Fish" and "Some Velvet Morning" on the live cd "The one that got away". Again, off topic, but probably the only other band in the whole wide world I feel as passionately about, like I do with Wire and its offshoots. For me, you can take all the Wire CD's up to Bell is a Cup, and all the Thin White Rope CD's, and you can throw all other guitar rock aside for the most part, because all the high points will have already been covered... Anyone else out there even heard of Thin White Rope? I know some of you Euro-types must have? Cheers! Happy Tuesday! Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:28:26 +0100 From: "Steve Jackson" Subject: Re: Brazil and other matters Do you mean you've actually counted? As the song is in four time, and it ends on the bar, doesn't that mean that the number of beats must be divisible by 4 (although Maths and Music Theory aren't my stong points) >I think it's because the song has exactly 106 beats in it, isn't >it? So it should actually be "106 beats, that." They just left >out the comma. > > > >John H. Hedges > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 21:47:24 +0100 From: "Steve Jackson" Subject: Re: Couldn't Sleep I wrote the post about blubbing to Wire. I've used the same two songs for the same reasons. "I should have known better" BITTER! If you listen to Lewis' voice carefully in that song, you can tell he means that, especially the way he says "calibrate my displeasure, yet so" I got into Wire through the "In the Pink" compilation of the late 80's and I fell desperately in love at the same time (I was about 19) I took the lyric to Brazil seriously ( silly me) . I also swooned every time CN said "Chorus" in Map Ref (because I knew what was coming next!). As I said the two songs Chad mentioned came to mean something else later, as did "Do you Mean that?" (as mentioned on a previous posting) The bit where AC sings "tears from your eyes make a hole in a rock" killed me (sometimes still does.) Like Chad, I don't want to get too sentimental, but when I put up the first posting about "blubbing" (that's "crying" you Non-Europeans) it was half in jest but also because Wire are often regarded as po-faced, technology embracing simulants and I think the passion and emotion in some of their songs is often overlooked. - -----Original Message----- From: Wilson, Chad To: 'idealcopy@smoe.org' Date: 28 July 1998 18:54 Subject: Couldn't Sleep "Should have known better" >and "Touching Display" both of those songs can send perma-chills down >ones arm! Somebody on the list mentioned that Wire never made them cry, >which I find amazing. I can remember when I was younger and in love >(1991 in this example...) and after the relationship dissolved I >actually used those two songs to get my emotions moving, to get me out >of the shock and into the healing > >Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:44:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Brazil and other matters Wire and numerology... Excerpts from mail: 28-Jul-98 Re: Brazil and other matters by "Steve Jackson"@zen.co.u > Do you mean you've actually counted? As the song is in four time, and it > ends on the bar, doesn't that mean that the number of beats must be > divisible by 4 (although Maths and Music Theory aren't my stong points) The song starts on beat one and ends on beat one, which means there will be an *odd* number of beats in the song (viz, 4N + 1, where N is the number of measures). I obviously have no life because I counted the beats. Actually, I don't have the CD with me, so I had to hum the song in my head. I broke the song into its individual measures (40 of them, by my count). So that means the song has 161 beats. If we ignore the final beat (Colin screaming "sex"), then we could say that the song has 160 beats and should be called "160 Beats That". I don't have Eden's book with me either, but I seem to remember some story about train stations. Anyhow, here is my breakdown (remember this was done entirely from memory!): If you had a room, he'd paint it white, sur- vives the day, pre- fers the night, . . build sight. . . . . . . . . Got a head for figures, . . . . no time for bickers, . . . . (or so he says,) . . . . prefers the company of a woman. . . . Finds it more physical, (that's an important word,) always seen first then heard, . . such a rare bird. . . . . . . [bass solo] . . . . *10 [guitar] . . . . *4 With praise he glows, with change he grows, finds that important, hates waiting, it's not stimulating, likes celebrating, I can't understand why that is so funny, that is sex. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 19:36:47 -0400 From: Dave Walker Subject: Re: Brazil and other matters > re 106 Beats That: Caveat -- I read these bits years ago and can't directly cite the source: Originally the song "106 Beats That" was to have exactly 100 beats: after working out the arrangement, they found they'd overshot the goal and decided to call it "106 Beats That." Similarly, "Ex-Lion Tamer" is so titled because the original discarded lyrics were about a lion tamer, and "French Film Blurred" came from Graham trying to watch a French movie on a UHF TV station... -d.w. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:41:49 EDT From: CliveNice@aol.com Subject: Angela Conway.. Where did Angela Conway come in? As in, is she just some amazing talent that they had to have...or is she some band members significant other? Sure it's a rather stupid question, but inquiring minds wanna know. Keepin lovin that tree, Robert. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 21:49:47 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Angela Conway.. >Where did Angela Conway come in? She was a friend of Bruce's, and performed as a backing singer in "Overload", a short-lived group with Bruce, Colin, George Gill, and Ron West's girlfriend Petra in the mid 70's. Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:33:43 EDT From: Lizard4663@aol.com Subject: Off topic-Bill Nelson If anyone is into him, he's playing somewhere in the UK August 2. Details, email me. Liz ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #94 ******************************