From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #74 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, July 8 1998 Volume 01 : Number 074 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: AC Marias & Dome ["Trevor Dutton" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #73 [wmo ny ] Re: Wire Reform [wmo ny ] Re: Elitism/A-Z/Gender ["Ian J. Harris" ] Thoughts? [KB305@aol.com] RE: Wire Reform [ubaran@iclretail.icl.com] re: top that ["Jack Steinmann" ] Re: Thoughts? [] Re: Bootleg Vinyl [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) [nobrand@bitburn.org (B. Coates)] Re: Bootleg Vinyl [stevenl@comtrol.com (Steve Loubert)] Re: manscape [Billy D ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) [flaherty michael w ] Re: Wire reforms? [Billy D ] Re: Wire Reforms? (fwd) [flaherty michael w ] RE: Bootleg Vinyl [ubaran@iclretail.icl.com] Analog/Digital ["Mack" ] Re: top that [wmo ny ] Re: Analog/Digital [Andrew N Westmeyer ] re: re: Analog/Digital ["Jack Steinmann" ] Re: Bootleg Vinyl [Thom Heileson ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) [Thom Heileson ] Re: Bootleg Vinyl ["ken johnson" ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) ["Mack" ] Re: Analog/Digital [stevenl@comtrol.com (Steve Loubert)] Re: re: Is it me Is it you? ["Jack Steinmann" ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) [CliveNice@aol.com] Re: Elitism/A-Z/Gender [Thom Heileson ] Re: Thoughts? (fwd) ["Nobrand- endorsing nothing." ] The Dreaded Vinyl Debate [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:05:51 +0100 From: "Trevor Dutton" Subject: Re: AC Marias & Dome - ---- snip ----- Mine too, and all of the others I've heard. Guess that's why they call it Trade. There's always the possibility that we're just not getting it, and it's really part of the piece. The cover, after all, was printed to look beat up. Mixing a song to sound that way might be more than Mortals can comprehend. - ----- snip ---- Ken may have a point! I remember the first time I heard I Want You on Abbey Road I took the record back because of the terrible distortion at the end of the track (I was only 12, give me a break!) Trevor Dutton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:04:52 -0400 From: wmo ny Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #73 > > For the record my > > favorite album is not by Wire, it is in fact "Spirit of Eden" by Talk > > Talk! Cheers! > So is mine! Closely followed by Talk Talk's Laughing Stock... These records > have been profound listening experiences for me... in a completely > different way than the Wiresque has. Hm, that's about all; I'm fanatical > about these records and it's just funky to find someone with the same > specific fave... Here here! The guitar solo on "After The Flood" is simply wonderful! The best guitar ever recorded. I'll give Colour of Spring some big kudos as well! Did anyone get AsidesBsides yet? charles/wmo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:21:17 -0400 From: wmo ny Subject: Re: Wire Reform > charles / wmo wrote : > > > they'd need a label to cough up say $100k to pay for the next record. > > Doesn't todays technology enable mastering quality at less than this? If > they really want to work together for artistic reasons then surely they > can? It's up to their own motivation. it's not about master quality or motivation. it's about the ante in the game. Most majors sign new, undeveloped acts for more than that!!! it's their current situation and putting their reputation on the line that dictates the price. For all of them to sit in a *real* studio for six months recording a record is some serious logistics. And there's some serious history with this band. In the meantime, Robert's got a farm to run , Colin's got Swim, Bruce has got the Angel (!), and Graham and his family are in Sweden. (Note that Colin lived with Malka in Belguim during most of Wire's 2nd). I think the only thing they (Wire) would agree on is who would master it. Denis Blackham who also btw, did most of the WMO reissues, including P'o, and all the new Talk Talk reissues! More important is to listen to the first Letter and think about it in today's context - what if that record came out last year? it's perhaps the most underrated record the band has put out. And maybe one of the most commercial, considering it's now 1998. Could they top that? charles/ wmo in ny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:28:08 +0000 From: "Ian J. Harris" Subject: Re: Elitism/A-Z/Gender > >.Wire fans regard themselves as morally superior to Spice Girls devotees. > >but i like the spice girls - they are rather a hoot and more listenable than > >9/10s of > >what passes for 'sincere' pop music > Well I am a great fan of "pop" and do not see any problem with reconsiling my appreciation of Wire, with other CDs I have under W, such as Kim Wilde, Robbie Williams or Wham! Wire always seem to retain a poppy element to their music, which I why I like them. What are Map Reference...., Our Swimmer, Outdoor Miner even if not pop songs? ~ Ian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:44:07 EDT From: KB305@aol.com Subject: Thoughts? charles of wmo said: << I think their point of reforming would be to reach a new audience. This obviously would also be the reason for a Record label to put the Big Bucks behind it. I don't, however, think that it would alienate anyone this time around. Just a hunch, but third times a charm, and in no small way I think the world's ready for them. >> charles- I question your thinking here. Is there a new audience for 50-year-old men who like to tinker with machines and make non-linear, un-pop songs? Are they going to say anything that the great unwashed mass of paying customers want to hear? We who read i.c. are definitely on the fringe, and are not the Wal-Mart customer the labels seek. Accessible artists who make easy music are having a hard enough time getting heard, I think. The audience for over-40 artists is... sleepy. Don't get me wrong-- I'd love to hear something new. But I don't see it coming, even if lots of people are 'stealing their shit', as jazz musicians like to say. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:44:07 +0100 From: ubaran@iclretail.icl.com Subject: RE: Wire Reform Charles, I'm missing a couple of points here. 1: I got bounced from the list temporarily and missed the beginning of the conversation. So basically, is all this totally speculative or is there any basis of fact in it? 2: My impression is that Robert got rather (unfairly) marginalised towards the end of Wire (hence Wir) and with me not being aware of the in-group personal issues, why is the assumption that it would be Wire and not Wir? Uri PS I also assert that Robert's departure signified the end of any 'rock' related aspirations of the group and they went into musical decline directly afterwards. I saw them supporting Blur around this period and most of the audience had two fingered salutes as they went off. Although no doubt all the latter devotees will see this as a good sign. I also like Blur! it's not about master quality or motivation. it's about the ante in the game. Most majors sign new, undeveloped acts for more than that!!! it's their current situation and putting their reputation on the line that dictates the price. For all of them to sit in a *real* studio for six months recording a record is some serious logistics. And there's some serious history with this band. In the meantime, Robert's got a farm to run , Colin's got Swim, Bruce has got the Angel (!), and Graham and his family are in Sweden. (Note that Colin lived with Malka in Belguim during most of Wire's 2nd). I think the only thing they (Wire) would agree on is who would master it. Denis Blackham who also btw, did most of the WMO reissues, including P'o, and all the new Talk Talk reissues! More important is to listen to the first Letter and think about it in today's context - what if that record came out last year? it's perhaps the most underrated record the band has put out. And maybe one of the most commercial, considering it's now 1998. Could they top that? charles/ wmo in ny ------------------------------ Date: 07 Jul 98 09:38:03 -0500 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: re: top that Reply to: re: top that Colin Newman, at least, thinks wir could have easily topped the first letter, just in the mixing. How about all of them sitting in a *real* studio for two weeks for a remix/reissue? Jack On 7/7/98, wmo ny wrote: More important is to listen to the first Letter and think about it in today's context - what if that record came out last year? it's perhaps the most underrated record the band has put out. And maybe one of the most commercial, considering it's now 1998. Could they top that? charles/ wmo in ny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 98 10:45:05 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Thoughts? >The audience for over-40 artists >is... sleepy. Which is why it's exhiliarating to find older members on this list who are still seeking new and exciting music. I think that there is some sort of horrible dogma that once you hit a certain age, you need to move into a particular musical niche (i.e. age 30= Hootie and the Blowfish and "adult alternative"). Marketing obviously is the key figure in this development. I was mortified to find that the once brilliant and experimental college radio station I grew up with in the 80's and early 90's had completely altered its format to accommodate the fact that the original legions of listeners were older and thus more "mature" (read: dull and musically retarded!) I'm only 25, but I am already encountering people my age resigning themselves to the fact that they should sit back and listen to some sappy and unintelligent folk drivel that passes for "modern" music instead of forging ahead and into the musical wilderness. "Well, you know I'm getting older and need to mellow out." Piss on that! Bruce Gilbert turned 50 last year, and listen to the work that he still releases; this is a man who has actually become more and more abrasive and adventurous in his releases over the years. An example everyone could follow. That's my daily rant! Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:43:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Bootleg Vinyl Excerpts from mail: 6-Jul-98 Re: Bootleg Vinyl by "ken johnson"@dte.net > > besides, their release sounds much better. > > Now Andrew, don't start me off. Everyone knows ~VINYL~ is superior in every > in every aspect to all other forms of media. You know, this sort of thing absolutely puzzles me. I became a music consumer only very shortly before CD's came out, so I do have a couple albums. But why are people still so addicted to vinyl? Does anyone have nostalgia for 8-tracks? (I shudder at the thought!) I had some Swim records for about a year before I could even find a record player to play them on! (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:31:09 -0800 From: nobrand@bitburn.org (B. Coates) Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) >>The audience for over-40 artists >>is... sleepy. > >Bruce Gilbert turned 50 last year, and listen to the work that he still >releases...adventurous...An example everyone could follow. > >Which is why it's exhiliarating to find older members on this list who >are still seeking new and exciting music. I think that there is some sort >of horrible dogma that once you hit a certain age... I wonder how much pride has to play into things. I can't think of many bands that turn out quality after the 'spark' is gone. I think Love and Rockets still puts out good. Morrissey still has it, I think. I am sure Wir(e) have it in them to do so, if of course, personal tastes and personal developed work ethics don't get in the way. But where do people(the audiences) draw the line, and stop grouping these people in with washed up old fogies who didn't grow up? For instance, I went to see Flock of Seagulls, and Mising Persons a couple years ago. Berlin Toured, too. Gary Numan is touring. Creatures are touring. If John Cale didn't change her for the worse, then I don't know what did. There are all these 'new wave comeback' tours, and it seems circuslike. I feel that most established Wir(e) fans, aware of the past, would welcome it with open arms, but there are a number of even those that would reject it. (For instance, I didn't listen to Manscape but a few times.) That leaves some pretty small numbers in terms of sales, because Wir(e) don't have tight rubbery skinned peirced navel torsos to shake at an MTV camera and $10,000,000,000 Puff Daddy produced material to win new blood with. If nothing else, Wir(e) can leave with dignity at this point. And with the 'artsy' past they have, that's important, I think. If anything, I would rather see the group of them get together and be responsible for something other than Wir(e). Become a production team for a play or something. Dunno. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:24:52 -0500 From: stevenl@comtrol.com (Steve Loubert) Subject: Re: Bootleg Vinyl >Excerpts from mail: 6-Jul-98 Re: Bootleg Vinyl by "ken johnson"@dte.net >> > besides, their release sounds much better. >> >> Now Andrew, don't start me off. Everyone knows ~VINYL~ is superior in every >> in every aspect to all other forms of media. > Andrew Westmeyer wrote: >You know, this sort of thing absolutely puzzles me. I became a music >consumer only very shortly before CD's came out, so I do have a couple >albums. But why are people still so addicted to vinyl? Does anyone >have nostalgia for 8-tracks? (I shudder at the thought!) I had some >Swim records for about a year before I could even find a record player >to play them on! It's not a matter of nostalgia. Vinyl, on a good, properly set up system, is sonically superior to CD, at least in the opinion of the most knowledgeable audio fanatics. Turntables and cartridges for vinyl records are still being produced, and the state of the art continues to be advanced. Vinyl does have its drawbacks; it's less convenient than CD, more subject to wear, and it's hard to find new releases on vinyl, but it's a big mistake to equate it with 8-track. (Actually, there are 8-track revivalists out there, but they make no claims for the sound.) I don't seek out new releases on vinyl, and I don't hate CD's like some do, but I'm not going to pitch out my 1000 or so records because some industry bigshots have decided that they're obsolete! Steve, cranky old fart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:35:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy D Subject: Re: manscape I really Liked for the 'Manscape' cd... It really stands out amongst their output. Cheers, BillyD - ---"Meddings, Anne L (Anne)" wrote: > > Michael Flaherty wrote: > >In recent list-member polling "Manscape" was, as I remember, strongly > > disliked by many (not me, by the way)< > > > Yes - what's up with that? Does no one else (besides Michael I hope) > ~adore~ "Small Black Reptile," "Where's the Deputation," or "Children of > Groceries"? All delicious songs to me. > > Anne > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:48:48 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, B. Coates wrote: > Berlin Toured, too. Gary Numan is touring. Creatures are touring. If > John Cale didn't change her for the worse, then I don't know what did. Don't blame Cale. His track record as a producer (Stooges, Nico, Horses) stands up to anyone's. But if the materials not there .... Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:49:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy D Subject: Re: Wire reforms? Besides, Wot's a hundred grand anyway? I'm sure if we all pulled our cash we could front Wire the loot... BillyD _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:51:44 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: Wire Reforms? (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:39:09 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w To: wmo ny Subject: Re: Wire Reforms? On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, wmo ny wrote: > I think their point of reforming would be to reach a new audience. This > obviously would also be the reason for a Record label to put the Big > Bucks behind it. This, of course, would come with strings attached .... I don't, however, think that it would alienate anyone > this time around. Not intentionally anyway (and certainly not if a record company was paying for it). Just a hunch, but third times a charm, and in no small > way I think the world's ready for them. > > Thoughts? That's what people use to say about the Velvet Underground. The fact is, age plays a factor here. I think they all still have much to contribute etc., but I think any chance of them becoming a big band has passed, which isn't necessarily bad ... One of the things that amused me about the grunge explosion of the early 90s is that some bands seemed surprised that their mass audiences weren't loyal to them. Van Morrison says that musicians are best off with a small, dependable audience. If they remain true to that audience they will survive--not an easy thing to do. On a smaller scale I think that's what Wire has accomplished. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:53:46 +0100 From: ubaran@iclretail.icl.com Subject: RE: Bootleg Vinyl Can of worms here. How can vinyl possibly be sonically superior to CD? Apart from Vinyl's noise and wear, CD's audio range matches the audible range of humans and beyond audible who cares? Yes, CD's sample the sound but do so in a manner that the frequency range of interest i.e that which can be heard is retained. Anyway, my guess is that anyone who prefers vinyl, actually prefers the noise and distortion that it introduces and isn't particularly concerned with perfection in reproduction. How about a technical justification rather than an emotional one? Uri > -----Original Message----- > From: stevenl@comtrol.com [SMTP:stevenl@comtrol.com] > Sent: 07 July 1998 4:25 PM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Bootleg Vinyl > > >Excerpts from mail: 6-Jul-98 Re: Bootleg Vinyl by "ken johnson"@dte.net > >> > besides, their release sounds much better. > >> > >> Now Andrew, don't start me off. Everyone knows ~VINYL~ is superior in > every > >> in every aspect to all other forms of media. > > > > Andrew Westmeyer wrote: > >You know, this sort of thing absolutely puzzles me. I became a music > >consumer only very shortly before CD's came out, so I do have a couple > >albums. But why are people still so addicted to vinyl? Does anyone > >have nostalgia for 8-tracks? (I shudder at the thought!) I had some > >Swim records for about a year before I could even find a record player > >to play them on! > > It's not a matter of nostalgia. Vinyl, on a good, properly set up > system, is sonically superior to CD, at least in the opinion of the > most knowledgeable audio fanatics. Turntables and cartridges for > vinyl records are still being produced, and the state of the art > continues to be advanced. Vinyl does have its drawbacks; it's less > convenient than CD, more subject to wear, and it's hard to find new > releases on vinyl, but it's a big mistake to equate it with 8-track. > (Actually, there are 8-track revivalists out there, but they make > no claims for the sound.) > > I don't seek out new releases on vinyl, and I don't hate CD's like > some do, but I'm not going to pitch out my 1000 or so records because > some industry bigshots have decided that they're obsolete! > > Steve, > cranky old fart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:55:21 -0500 From: "Mack" Subject: Analog/Digital >You know, this sort of thing absolutely puzzles me. I became a music >consumer only very shortly before CD's came out, so I do have a couple >albums. But why are people still so addicted to vinyl? If you have a really good system - vinyl wins hands down in warmth and listenability and loses on convenience and durability > Does anyone have nostalgia for 8-tracks? (I shudder at the thought!) Actually yes - See if you can locate a copy of the zine '8 Track Mind' There actually was a feature film too The name of which escapes me - but I'll update later Oddly enough the 8 Track technology was superior to cassette (faster IPS) but the pre-record sound quality was so dreadful and record companies used the cheapest blanks. consult the following location for more: http://www.8trackheaven.com/ david ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:01:25 -0400 From: wmo ny Subject: Re: top that > Colin Newman, at least, thinks wir could have easily topped the first >letter, just in the mixing. How about all of them sitting in a *real* >studio for two weeks for a remix/reissue? > yes, colin has said that. But that was reason why they never made another Wir record - they couldn't get through that mix! Both Bruce and Graham were happy with Paul Kendall's work. Colin was the dissenter. charles/ wmo in ny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 13:23:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Analog/Digital Excerpts from mail: 7-Jul-98 Analog/Digital by "Mack"@geocities.com > > But why are people still so addicted to vinyl? > > If you have a really good system - vinyl wins hands down in warmth and > listenability and loses on convenience and durability Yup and nope. Strictly speaking, vinyl has *less* resolution than a CD, so the sound quality is necessarily inferior. (Incidentally, sounds are also "sampled" on vinyl, but because it's analog, the sampling rate is the point resolution of the needle.) "Warmth" is the fallback for vinyl enthusiasts. But you should understand that this is an artifact of the writing process - an additional reverb, in a sense. It makes the music sound more "live", although it does so at the *expense* of sound quality. One reason CD's sound so "cold" or "mechanical" is b/c we usually never hear sounds which are so precisely controlled. OK enough of my ranting! Back to Wire... (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: 07 Jul 98 12:53:33 -0500 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: re: re: Analog/Digital Reply to: re: re: Analog/Digital Some (more technically astute than I) take issue with with the claim that vinyl has less resolution than a CD. They would argue (among other things) that CD's lop off harmonics that vinyl preserves. (Me, I don't know the first thing about why CDs can sound so thin.) As for warmth, well, certainly there are "warm" recordings (master tapes) that have become "cold" on CD, so I don't buy the argument that music properly reproduced is "cold." If CD's sound "cold" and "mechanical" the implication is that all the recordings are "cold" and "mechanical" too, which doesn't follow. CD's of music ought to sound like music. Music shouldn't have to sound like CD's. Jack On 7/7/98, Andrew N Westmeyer wrote: Strictly speaking, vinyl has *less* resolution than a CD, so the sound quality is necessarily inferior. (Incidentally, sounds are also "sampled" on vinyl, but because it's analog, the sampling rate is the point resolution of the needle.) "Warmth" is the fallback for vinyl enthusiasts. But you should understand that this is an artifact of the writing process - an additional reverb, in a sense. It makes the music sound more "live", although it does so at the *expense* of sound quality. One reason CD's sound so "cold" or "mechanical" is b/c we usually never hear sounds which are so precisely controlled. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:43:32 -0700 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Bootleg Vinyl Andrew N Westmeyer wrote: > > Excerpts from mail: 6-Jul-98 Re: Bootleg Vinyl by "ken johnson"@dte.net > > > besides, their release sounds much better. > > > > Now Andrew, don't start me off. Everyone knows ~VINYL~ is superior in every > > in every aspect to all other forms of media. (in _every_ aspect? hm, haven't tried hiking w/ a phonograph on my belt, I'll have to give it a whirl... --Mr. Bratty :)) > You know, this sort of thing absolutely puzzles me. I became a music > consumer only very shortly before CD's came out, so I do have a couple > albums. But why are people still so addicted to vinyl? Does anyone > have nostalgia for 8-tracks? (I shudder at the thought!) There is actually a really big 8-track nostalgia subculture... A camp thing, ya know... Speaking of nostalgia, it might be worth pointing out that a big reason, say, an original vinyl pressing of Chairs Missing is worth more than the CD, is related to the collector's market, a form of nostalgia really, separate from the analog vs. digital _sound_ debate (which I'm not going to touch). (I do some collecting of old records, and in these it's the scatchiness in the sound, the novelty in the material & cover art, that I'm interested in - not to say that I don't have lots of vinyl that I like to keep pristine as well) - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson/index.html Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:07:09 -0700 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) > >Bruce Gilbert turned 50 last year, and listen to the work that he still > >releases...adventurous...An example everyone could follow. Cheers > But where do people(the audiences) draw the line, and stop grouping these > people in with washed up old fogies who didn't grow up? For instance, I > went to see Flock of Seagulls, and Mising Persons a couple years ago. > Berlin Toured, too. Gary Numan is touring. Creatures are touring. If > John Cale didn't change her for the worse, then I don't know what did. What, you mean Cale changing Siouxsie? (I missed the Creatures show myself) > There are all these 'new wave comeback' tours, and it seems circuslike. It's pretty amusing and strange. I recently learned Bauhaus is doing a reuinion tour, which kinda takes the cake (I say as I consider going to the show)... - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson/index.html Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:22:49 -0400 From: "ken johnson" Subject: Re: Bootleg Vinyl Thom Heileson wrote- > > > > > > Now Andrew, don't start me off. Everyone knows ~VINYL~ is superior in every > > > in every aspect to all other forms of media. > > (in _every_ aspect? hm, haven't tried hiking w/ a phonograph on my belt, > I'll have to give it a whirl... --Mr. Bratty :)) Thom wait! Before you do that,you'll need to get yourself a "Hi-way Hi-Fi", manufactured for the Chrysler Corp. in the fifties and early '60's. Before CDs, before cassettes, and yes, before 8 tracks, (yet still after the time of the dinosaurs), these phonographs were mounted in the dash of the car so you could play your (Tony Bennett?) records while cruising along the open road. The tone arm was spring-loaded for plenty of bounce-resisting torque. They could be removed from the dash and hung from one's belt for hiking, although I don't think THAT had been invented yet. Ken J ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:37:05 -0500 From: "Mack" Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) While we are on the subject of oldsters on the road: "Latest news involves the Inertia tour... It's now scheduled, subject to change, for September/October '98 in the US and Canada! Currently, the line-up is Buzzcocks, Pere Ubu, and The Fall, with another two acts to be announced" 2 out of 3 never really broke up btw - the Flock of Seagulls comeback was one of the most dismal opening slots my former band ever had worse even than we expected as to Mr Cale's productions - dont forget Goya Dress or try to remember if you can not really dreadful - just not memorable david btw gary numan never really gave up either - just a small dedicated following (of which i do not belong) cared >> But where do people(the audiences) draw the line, and stop grouping these >> people in with washed up old fogies who didn't grow up? For instance, I >> went to see Flock of Seagulls, and Mising Persons a couple years ago. >> Berlin Toured, too. Gary Numan is touring. Creatures are touring. If >> John Cale didn't change her for the worse, then I don't know what did. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 15:43:05 -0500 From: stevenl@comtrol.com (Steve Loubert) Subject: Re: Analog/Digital Andrew Westmeyer wrote: >"Warmth" is the fallback for vinyl enthusiasts. But you should >understand that this is an artifact of the writing process - an >additional reverb, in a sense. It makes the music sound more "live", >although it does so at the *expense* of sound quality. One reason CD's >sound so "cold" or "mechanical" is b/c we usually never hear sounds >which are so precisely controlled. Or because the implementation of the analog/digital/analog conversion is less than perfect, or because problems like timing jitter in the output clock were not forseen in the original specification, or because (as recent research seems to indicate) there are components of sound above the 20KHz CD brick wall which have an audible effect on music, or because the realistic recreation of a 4-dimensional musical event recorded through microphones and played back through a pair of speakers is a complicated and subtle affair, about which we still have much to learn . . . I'm not really a vinyl "true believer", but I do remember that the first time I heard Joy Division's "Unknown Pleasures" on CD, I couldn't believe how wimpy it sounded. So far, Wire's stuff has translated just fine to digital. >OK enough of my ranting! Back to Wire... Not a rant; an interesting discussion, which has probably run its course here. Steve ------------------------------ Date: 07 Jul 98 16:01:25 -0500 From: "Jack Steinmann" Subject: Re: re: Is it me Is it you? Reply to: Re: re: Is it me Is it you? On 6/17/98, charles / wmo wrote: >...The problem I have with song based "Rock" music (for >lack of a better term) is that it's been around forever. I remember the >Beatles, I was a teenager when I first heard Pink Flag. I've been listening >to this for so fucking long - I don't think that it's out of place to say >that the "Beat Combo" approach is over. Mathmatically, this could even be >proven! What's out there?... >...In the 90's I can think of exactly three "Rock" bands that actually had >something new to offer. My Bloody Valentine (sampling in a Beat Combo >context), Stereolab (charm, sugar and balls), and Long Fin Killie >(virtuosity). I'd throw Seefeel/Scala into this for mixing Beats With Rock, >and name check the Spinanes for writing some great songs... Well, I don't know, I guess I don't come to new "rock" releases with preconceptions about the viability of the "format." As much as I love 'Chairs Missing' and 'A Bell is a Cup,' I have an equal appreciation for such 90's "rock" albums as 'Mighty Joe Moon' (Grant Lee Buffalo) and 'I'm With Stupid' (Aimee Mann). Great songwriting is timeless, and Wire always had great songwriting in their arsenal. >Compare 154 to anything else recorded in 1979. You can't. Yes I can. Joy Division's 'Unknown Pleasures,' released around the same time. Compare 'A Touching Display' with 'Day of the Lords.' Different bands, different ambitions, equal levels of innovation. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:14:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) Excerpts from mail: 7-Jul-98 Re: Thoughts? (fwd) by "Mack"@geocities.com > "Latest news involves the Inertia tour... It's now scheduled, subject to > change, for September/October '98 in the US and Canada! Currently, the > line-up is Buzzcocks, Pere Ubu, and The Fall, with another two acts to be > announced" Incidentally, Wire (and X-Ray Spex) were both asked to be on this tour. I'll spare everyone the details, but the organizer was a rude SOB. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:57:36 EDT From: CliveNice@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) In a message dated 98-07-07 16:13:45 EDT, you write: << > But where do people(the audiences) draw the line, and stop grouping these > people in with washed up old fogies who didn't grow up? For instance, I > went to see Flock of Seagulls, and Mising Persons a couple years ago. > Berlin Toured, too. Gary Numan is touring. Creatures are touring. If > John Cale didn't change her for the worse, then I don't know what did. >> Flock of Seagulls just played a free show on the 4th here in Tampa....i would've gone but I broke my motivation on the ride over. I'd go to many of these reunion shows for a good laugh, if nothing else....I went to see the Sex Pistols in Memphis (the re-union)...it was really funny...they were spoiled rockstars...and to top it off, the venue that they played at (called Mud Island or something) wouldn't allow anyone to get out of their seat through the entire show! But i did get to meet them so i suppose it was worth it.... The moral? Re-union Concerts are Laughable. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 16:56:52 -0700 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Elitism/A-Z/Gender Ian J. Harris wrote: > > > >.Wire fans regard themselves as morally superior to Spice Girls devotees. > > >but i like the spice girls - they are rather a hoot and more listenable than > > >9/10s of > > >what passes for 'sincere' pop music > > > Well I am a great fan of "pop" and do not see any problem with > reconsiling my appreciation of Wire, with other CDs I have under W, > such as Kim Wilde, Robbie Williams or Wham! > Wire always seem to retain a poppy element to their music, which I > why I like them. What are Map Reference...., Our Swimmer, Outdoor > Miner even if not pop songs? Yes, but they are pop songs with a more original flair (for hooks, structure, sounds), than the general top 40 material which I think a lot of us 'elitists' are criticizing... And I'm not one to dwell on lyrical content, but it can be an indication of the creativity/motivation going on in a pop song. I love Wir/e lyrics for their irreverance matched with ...newness... I don't know what else to call it, but one finds interesting, mysterious, sometimes absurdist combinations of words/sentences in Wir/e material which provides a lasting interest. My only point is that it's quite different than lyrics like "makin' love forever - friendship never ends!" - the latter example being an indication of the spice girls' major market & motivation: easy-to-understand easy listening for folks who aren't interesting in making too much of an effort. (I echoe the slam on contemporary "sincere" pop music - the lyrical and musical content in much of this stuff is just as market tested as the more obviously vacant - just dressed up in a mask of sincerity calculated to appeal to the buyers) Like I say, I'm not hung up on words (the opposite usually) - but they are an easy target. ...now that I've secured my rep as an elitist twit...! :) - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson/index.html Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:24:07 -0700 (PWT) From: "Nobrand- endorsing nothing." Subject: Re: Thoughts? (fwd) > Don't blame Cale. His track record as a producer (Stooges, Nico, > Horses) stands up to anyone's. But if the materials not there .... > The first album that cale had his fingers in for Siouxsie, by no coincidence, he had cowritten and produced all the tracks that were un-Siouxsie, and the specific tracks I hated. I respect his track record, I loved VU, and everything that has been inspired of it(like Ultra Vivid Scene and Dandy Warhols). I even liked the Songs for Drella tape, that ended up in bargain bins too soon. I love the collaborations with Brian Eno. But I think he really took the 'edge' away from Siouxsie. I'm sure she was somewhat responsible in allowing it to happen, but I feel like that was his (only mentionable)failure. I actually didn't mean it as a disrespect to him in general, though it was pretty harsh. My point was more the fact that usually, if a band doesn't flog a dead horse(ala Missing Persons) they change for the worse- like Siouxsie. Or the B52s. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:13:39 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: The Dreaded Vinyl Debate Vinyl, whatever its merits, is an elitist medium, in that in order for those merits to be heard, you need a very expensive system. Furthermore, you might as well play each record once and once only - after that first play, any supposed superiority is right out the window w/surface noise and wear. For all practical purposes, CDs are superior. That's not to say that many CDs are crappily mastered and more harsh than they need to be ("harsh" as opposite of "warm," the vinyl fetishist's fallback). And it may even be possible that, for the 1% of us with very very perceptive ears, technical limitations mean CDs could never be as warm as vinyl (bass response perhaps especially). Again, as a mass medium, CDs are much better. Another often-overlooked merit of CDs: although it has nothing to do with their sound quality, their existence has spurred an ongoing upgrade of most record companies' back catalogs. A whole lot of stuff from the '60s, '70s, and '80s that had gone out or print pre-CD has been returned to distribution on CD. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n Department of English http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee ::I feel that all movies should have things that happen in them. :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::TV's Frank:: ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #74 ******************************