From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #64 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 01 : Number 064 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Which Wir(e) [ubaran@iclretail.icl.com] Re: Which Wir(e) ["Mack" ] Re: Which Wir(e) [flaherty michael w ] RE: The next big thing [Chris Walker ] Re: Which Wir(e) [CliveNice@aol.com] Re: Which Wir(e) [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Dugga, Dugga, Dugga. [Chris Walker ] Re: Live Wire. [flaherty michael w ] Re: Which Wir(e) [Craig Grannell ] Re: Which Wir(e) [Creaig Dunton ] Re:Next big thing ["charles / wmo" ] Elite Rock ["Mack" ] Parade Ground ["Mack" ] Re: Which Wir(e) [#rciscon ] Fwd: Torching and Stampeding [Miles Goosens ] Fwd: Beats and noise and Bay city rollers forever! [Miles Goosens ] Re: Which Wir(e) [Amanda ] Fwd: Re: Wire appropriators/facsimilies? [Miles Goosens ] list cleanup; advice for the bounced [Miles Goosens ] RE: Is it me Is it you? [Chad Wilson ] Re: Which Wir(e) [Snarlo ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:33:23 +0100 From: ubaran@iclretail.icl.com Subject: Which Wir(e) A quick poll to try to determine which variant of Wire + members is the main reason that people have the interest. There seems to be 7 variants: 1: Original - '76-80 2: Reform - 85-90 3: Wir - 90-93 4: Gilbert & Lewis 5: Newman 6: Gilbert 7: Lewis My vote is for 1 and I'm 34 (I reckon age is an important influence on the above). Uri ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:38:49 -0500 From: "Mack" Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) >1: Original - '76-80 >2: Reform - 85-90 >3: Wir - 90-93 >4: Gilbert & Lewis >5: Newman >6: Gilbert >7: Lewis ALL OF THE ABOVE >My vote is for 1 and I'm 34 (I reckon age is an important influence on >the above). I'm 41 (today) and I reckon that the boys have continually provided me with cool stuff to listen to for a long-long time ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:56:09 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 ubaran@iclretail.icl.com wrote: > A quick poll to try to determine which variant of Wire + members is the > main reason that people have the interest. There seems to be 7 variants: > > 1: Original - '76-80 > 2: Reform - 85-90 > 3: Wir - 90-93 > 4: Gilbert & Lewis > 5: Newman > 6: Gilbert > 7: Lewis > > My vote is for 1 and I'm 34 (I reckon age is an important influence on > the above). Well, I'm 38 and so almost automatically I have to pick 1. But if it stopped there I would have lost interest years ago (I almost did for awhile). So let me answer this way: became interested for 1, but am currently most interested in 4 & 6. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:02:11 -0500 From: Chris Walker Subject: RE: The next big thing > now if only i could play Funkytown on an accordion..... > > I would love to hear an accordion version of Funky Town, too bad you > can't play it. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:51:58 EDT From: CliveNice@aol.com Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) In a message dated 98-06-25 08:34:42 EDT, you write: << 1: Original - '76-80 I like British Punk so that got me going, then I listened to Chairs Missing which was okay, then i heard 154 which blew me away.. 2: Reform - 85-90 >> I don't hear a large difference in this as compared to Chairs Missing....it's odd, and kinda catchy.. Colin - have only heard A-Z, and it was good, but not great... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:52:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) Excerpts from mail: 25-Jun-98 Which Wir(e) by ubaran@iclretail.icl.com > 1: Original - '76-80 > 2: Reform - 85-90 > 3: Wir - 90-93 > 4: Gilbert & Lewis > 5: Newman > 6: Gilbert > 7: Lewis All of the above! I'm 23 (am I the youngest on this list?), but I've been following them since '88. My current favorites are Vien and Ab Ovo; Bastard and Catch Supposes are close seconds, but In Esse is just a little too long. Numbers 4 through 7 are far too varied to make blanket "like/dislike" statements about. For instance with #4, I love Dome12 but am put to sleep by Or So It Seems. Just my 0.02. (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:32:05 -0500 From: Chris Walker Subject: Dugga, Dugga, Dugga. I've only been on the list for about three weeks and was curious to the progress of the Dugga, Dugga, Dugga compilation. I heard that a summer release was planned and since summer began last Sunday I am curious of whether its arrival will be soon. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:33:35 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: Live Wire. On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Mike Edwards wrote: > On the subject of times we've seen Wire live... > I saw them on the first date of their reunion tour of the states, and > boy, they were still working out the kinks. I saw the same tour. By the time I saw them, everything was fine. They played lots of stuff > from the still unreleased "A Bell is a Cup..", and they played quite a I assume the same was true with the show I saw. I do remember it was five songs into the set before they played anything I recognised. (Fine with me.) They stuck w/ Ideal Copy, the Drill ep, a new things. When someone requested Par. Lines Graham shook his head in disgust and snarled, "Go read a map." For the most part, they didn't say much between songs. (I don't have a tape, so I'm relying on memory.) > I saw them again about a year later at the end of a tour, and on this > night they were truly grand. They ripped through their two reunion lp's > with great ferocity, and ended the set with a titanic "Drill". Probably near the time I saw them--this sounds pretty familiar. (By the way, thank you. Your post helped me remember some forgotten things about the show.) During > "Drill" Colin's guitar failed and he slammed it to the ground and > stalked off the stage. Eventually Bruce left,too. Graham and Robert > jammed on the song for 4 or 5 minutes, then Robert left(with a loop of > his drums going) and Graham played more still. When I saw them Robert had some problems and left--walked right by me in fact. He seemed a little distracted anyway. Bruce was Bruce: sitting in front of his equipment, making great noises. I never saw Wire again, > but that was such a great moment, I didn't feel the need. I would like to see them again, but I know what you mean. That show is now my "Ideal Copy" for live Wire. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:45:07 +0100 From: Craig Grannell Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Andrew N Westmeyer wrote: > Excerpts from mail: 25-Jun-98 Which Wir(e) by ubaran@iclretail.icl.com > > 1: Original - '76-80 > > 2: Reform - 85-90 > > 3: Wir - 90-93 > > 4: Gilbert & Lewis > > 5: Newman > > 6: Gilbert > > 7: Lewis > > All of the above! I'm 23 (am I the youngest on this list?), but I've > been following them since '88. Nope, I'm a sprightly 21 (22 on the 3rd). First got into Wire when a mate of mine played me "AHEAD" and "DRILL". Got all the eighties stuff, liked Ideal Copy, some of Bell, some of IBTABA, thought Manscape was a bit naff. Then I found out about the 70s Wire. Thought 154 was amazing, CM pretty good and Pink Flag ... well, it's okay I guess... I see the DRILL LP as being WIR as much as The First Letter. This is still my favorite Wire - So and Slow it fantastic. Then again my next fave tracks would be Mutual Friend, the Other Window and Ahead, oh and DRILL (if it's done live). Bit of a mix. Thought DOME was ace. ACMarias fairly good. Colin's BASTARD amazing as with It Seems and Not to. Other stuff okay. Don't think much of Lewis' early stuff. Dunno about HSOmala amd new Gilbert stuff etc. So: 1,2,3,4 and 5. :) Hehehe. C. - --- Craig Grannell c.n.grannell@uwic.ac.uk cngrannell@yahoo.com soon: http:geocities.com/SoHo/Square/9822 For SNUB LP/Art/CD-ROMs/Dancing Trees ... - --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:11:50 -0400 From: Creaig Dunton Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) Craig Grannell wrote: > On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Andrew N Westmeyer > wrote: > > > Excerpts from mail: 25-Jun-98 Which Wir(e) by > ubaran@iclretail.icl.com > > > 1: Original - '76-80 > > > 2: Reform - 85-90 > > > 3: Wir - 90-93 > > > 4: Gilbert & Lewis > > > 5: Newman > > > 6: Gilbert > > > 7: Lewis > Nope, I'm a sprightly 21 (22 on the 3rd). First got into Wire > when a mate of mine played me "AHEAD" and "DRILL". Got all the > eighties stuff, liked Ideal Copy, some of Bell, some of IBTABA, > thought Manscape was a bit naff. > Well, I may be the youngest at 19 then...I got into Wire last fall when a friend of mine sent me dubs of the first three albums (along with stuff like Throbbing Gristle, Cabaret Voltaire, etc.). First time I heard _154_ I was hooked, _Chairs Missing_ and _Pink Flag_ took a few tries. Later I started picking up other albums, even though the guy warned me against post _Ideal Copy_ stuff. The only Wire material that doesn't blow me away is _Manscape_ and _The First Letter_, but that's just personal preference though. I also have yet to hear any post-Wire solo/collaboration works (shame on me!). - -- Creaig D http://2fmp.hypermart.net -> 2nd Floor Mafia Productions http://2fmp.hypermart.net/mypage/ -> My Page http://fpc.hypermart.net -> False Prophet Campaign ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:10:42 -0700 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re:Next big thing I though that Women's Rock was already a "big thing"?? I'd love to see Progressive Rock become the next big thing! As refreshing as the whole DIY of Punk and New Wave was after the heyday of Prog, I miss the level of virtuosity and perfection that was part of the Prog asthetic. If there was a benefit of the "closed" nature of the music industry up until till1976, it did weed out a lot of shit from being commited to vinyl. Unfortunately those who made the decision on what was or wasn't "music for distribution" is and will always be the elitist part of the music. Certainly having an opinon on music is only human nature! I mean was Cage an elitist? Certainly not in respect to any "Sound"! LOL! But the simple fact that an audience didn't "get" it doesn't make him or those who do elitist. If you're a Wire fan than you by default subscribe to some of the biggest elitists of them all! Maybe that should be the next big thing - Elite Rock?! charles - -------------------------------------------- wmo@interserv.com http://wiremailorder.com/ catalog@wiremailorder.com updated: April 07, 1998 - -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:31:55 -0500 From: "Mack" Subject: Elite Rock >Maybe that should be the next big thing - Elite Rock?! I don't get it?... actually wire are some of the most approachable eliteists (SP?) i have ever encountered you are right on the money regarding cage - some of his followers might be snits, but the man himself was supremely open and approachable and totally unpretentious about the 'meaning' of mmusic perhaps some of our fellow listers could take a cue from this attitude spice power d ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:43:32 -0500 From: "Mack" Subject: Parade Ground Back on-topic I picked up a couple 12"s by a band Parade Ground One features Colin on guitar and 'backing vocals) tho I couldn't hear the vocal contribution The other merely thanks 'Colin and Malka' I will post the pertinent facts later (tracks, dates, etc) But after initial listening, I would not say these are must-have items. Not bad , really, just very of-a-time (mid to late 80s) heavily digitally processed guitar, strained emotive vocals ... I actually kinda like it, but the other , more comman Newmanisms of the time (Virgin Prunes, Minimal Compace and even Alain Bashung albums) are probable more rewarding for any but the obsessive completeist (me) d ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 16:38:41 -0500 From: #rciscon Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) >A quick poll to try to determine which variant of Wire + members is the >main reason that people have the interest. There seems to be 7 variants: > >1: Original - '76-80 >2: Reform - 85-90 >3: Wir - 90-93 >4: Gilbert & Lewis >5: Newman >6: Gilbert >7: Lewis I'm 34, am probably just the oposite... I really don't care for the old stuff as much as the reformation stuff. I'll go one better and rate them in order of preference: 2: I just love Ideal Copy through Ibtaba 3: The more I listen to 'The First Letter', the more I like it 5: From 'Lorries' (what a great song!!!), through 'Bastard'... good stuff 7: Much like Colin Newman, Lewis can experiment without losing pop sensibilities 1: Good, but I don't see the appeal that other see 4: Have yet to acquire any Dome, so I don't know 6: I picked up his latest noise experiments.... and I guess I just need some hooks to get into it. Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:33:43 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fwd: Torching and Stampeding Looks like Steve's posts have been bouncing because of an HTML format problem (damn those modern mail programs!), so I'm forwarding them to the list. Off-list replies should go to Steve at smj@zen.co.uk, o.k.? ========================= I'm new here but I just thought I'd let the Wire world know, that a few years ago at a gig in Manchester (prior to release of ABIACUIIS) I asked Graham Lewis if "I Should Have Known Better" was about the same person as "Torch It!) By the look he gave me (:-|) and his suprise and the connection, I can only assume it was. A few years later Bruce Gilbert told me that "Stampede" was about the fall of the Berlin wall but you probably knew that. I didn't! ..and the "Acom Bar" or whatever Lewis says at the end of the song is a popular bar near to where the Berlin Wall once stood. So there... See y'all. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:51:07 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fwd: Is it me Is it you? Here's another forwarded bounce, from Chad Wilson. Chad had left the complete text of the message he was replying to at the bottom of his post, and therefore Chad's message came in over the character limit for idealcopy. I have left the original message (from Charles) out so this post will come in under that limit. Not to single Chad out, but it's standard netiquette to quote only the relevant sections of the message you're replying to, rather than include the whole of the previous message again. Selective quoting saves bandwidth and provides relevant context. I understand some mail programs automatically bump the previous message (on a reply) to the bottom, but there are usually workarounds to this. O.K.? O.K., cool. Remember, off-list replies to this message should be addressed to Chad at . ==================== From: "Wilson, Chad" To: "'idealcopy@smoe.org'" Subject: RE: Is it me Is it you? Charles, nice to hear from you again. I have to agree and disagree on some of your points so here it goes. On the beat combo; I think saying that the beat combo is over is like saying "Writing books is over, it has all been written before". That cannot possibly be true, no matter how much it seems like that is the case. Take Haiku or other any other structured form of art, and it is the forumula that has been done before, not neccessarily the concept or the art. I think we can all agree that when you turn on an "Alternative Rock" Station and hear third eye blind or wallflowers one is likely to head straight for the toilet for a nice barf fest! Like you I am also growing tired of the typical boy/girl, or angst based pop rock, but it is not the guitars, bass and drums that are pissing me off. As for electronic music being the future? Well, for how long? How long before every sound has been sampled and looped? How long before everyone just stops singing lyrics and starts putting down noises? How long before even yourself will get sick of it? Seems to me there would be no way to distinguish "art" from "product" after a while. On the topic of singing, I think that great lyrics and to some extent great singing (take Radiohead for example on both points) MAKES the kinds of music that I find most enjoyable, maybe second only to ominous or minimalist guitar work, which depends on my mood! ;-) ... You can't beleive that every idea has been expressed already in the lyric, and that every story has already been told, because it's just not true. Maybe like electronic music there is just too much of all music right now electronic, Rap, Pop or otherwise to sort through. Since we have all been enjoying giving examples of some of the other artists we enjoy, take the following "beat combos" for a spin if you haven't already, yeah some of them aren't current, but I they fortify my beleif that rock, with guitar and vocals will always be my favorite musical format... Nice to see some action on this list again! 1) Thin White Rope - Moonhead, one of the best rock albums ever recorded! Thin White Rope were showing guitar posers how to play REAL feedback when metal bands were prancing around with cornball digital effects in the late 80's. I would also recommend any Thin White Rope album to anyone, they have been gone for a while, but I beleive it is essential ROCK. 2) RadioHead - OK Computer, so you think radiohead is part of the new breed of "been there done that" rock products? Think again! How many bands can make a unanamous Album of the Year (alternative, whatever that means...) and get almost ZERO air play! Thats saying something, success in spite of not making 100% radio friendly music. OK computer is epic and visits some familiar Pink Floyd and even Wire like teritory but is definately FRESH. I especially enjoy the way they incorporate computers and samplers into their music without making the music BASED around the synthesizers and samplers. Anyway, don't write off rock and roll, maybe you just need a break? P.S. when is the colin Newman Singles collection coming out? Chad ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:06:07 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fwd: Beats and noise and Bay city rollers forever! Here's another forward -- yet another victim of a "formatted" message being rejected. Lots of the more recent mail programs -- Outlook, Eudora 4.0, Netscape Communicator's e-mail client -- will try to send out messages in "formatted" style. Users probably don't even know that they're sending "formatted" mail. majordomo@smoe.org reads the HTML coding in formatted messages and bounces 'em, assuming that someone is trying to spam the list. Plus a lot of people still get their e-mail through VAX shells or earlier versions of the aforementioned e-mail programs that don't support HTML messages. So it's a good idea to turn the formatting in your messages OFF, at least for list mail. I'll put this in the next iteration of the list FAQ. So here's this bounced message. Remember, off-list replies should go to Mike Edwards . =========================== > NRuecker@t-online.de (Norbert Ruecker) said: > Consequently this lead to the > removal of all "song" or "tune" elements in CN's recent work. Beats & noise > is all you need for good music these days, everyone can do it but only the > people with creativity produce stunning results (3-5% of em all). > I respect Norbert's right to his opinion, but I'd just like to point out that Colin Newman's "Bastard" most certainly contains old style "song" elements, and is not just "beats and noise". Note the guitar, and also please note that these songs have underlying melodies, a component most Drum and Bass is devoid of. Beats and Noise are about right now. This moment and our chaotic times. It's the music that William Gibson said would echo in the streets of the horror show of the future that he so accurately predicted years ago. "Good Music"? Not for me. Mike E. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:20:30 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fwd: Samplers Scurry for Dregs Another bounce, this one for "none of the above" reasons. Replies to Anne at . (Another Cope fan on the list? Hooray! And mindspring still gives out pipeline.com addresses?) later, Miles ========================== >> there aren't too many songs left to sample. >> This made me think of a great piece The Onion ran earlier this year. You lot may appreciate it, so here it is in its entirety. Anne _____________________ >From "The Onion" (www.theonion.com) LOS ANGELES--In an announcement that has caused grave concern within the nation's hip-hop community, the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP) revealed Monday that only two songs remain for rappers to sample, Tiny Tim's "Tiptoe Through The Tulips" and Styx's "Mr. Roboto." "Such albums as Puff Daddy's No Way Out and Mase's Harlem World have taken a heavy toll on our nation's precious sample reserves, ASCAP president Richard Goffin said. "Our nation's rap artists must now face the consequences of their failure to conserve this all-too-finite resource." With such artists as Puff Daddy, Jay-Z, Foxy Brown, Snoop Doggy Dogg, and Method Man all slated to begin work on new albums in the next six months, bidding for the sample rights to "Tiptoe Through The Tulips" and "Mr. Roboto" is expected to be fierce. Puff Daddy, a.k.a. Sean "Puffy" Combs, has already stated that he is willing to pay up to $20 million for the rights to the ukulele line in "Tiptoe" alone. "Yo, I got to get that 'Tiptoe' track," Combs said in an interview in The Source magazine. "I ain't got an album without it." Styx spokespersons said the band will attempt to maximize profits from "Mr. Roboto" by selling off the hit song from 1983's Kilroy Was Here piecemeal. "Our asking price for the song's 'Domo Arigato' spoken-word intro with synthesizer backing is $25 million," Styx bassist Chuck Panozzo said. "As far as the lyric, 'My blood is boiling, my heart is human, my brain IBM,' goes, I can't imagine we would be asking any less than $55 million for that." While Monday's ASCAP announcement stunned rappers across the U.S., signs of the impending crisis were present years ago. In 1989, James Brown became the first sample source to be exhausted, when the Jungle Brothers used a snippet of Brown sneezing during an outtake for "The Big Payback" on its album Done By The Forces Of Nature. By 1992, the music of numerous other high-profile artists was exhausted, including George Clinton, Rick James, Kool & The Gang, Prince and Queen. By 1995, nearly 80 percent of ASCAP-registered artists were tapped out as sample sources, including Roxette, Peaches & Herb, Bruce Hornsby, White Lion and Jon Secada. Last Friday, the number of unsampled songs fell to two when rapper Master P paid $12 million for the rights to "Is It Love," the B-side to the 1986 Mr. Mister hit "Broken Wings." "This is an extremely serious situation," said Def Jam president Russell Simmons, whose label--which has featured such artists as Public Enemy, Beastie Boys, EPMD, and LL Cool J--was responsible for much of the sample depletion of the mid- to late '80s. "Rappers may have to wait upwards of 10 years between albums, until there's enough new pop songs to sample. Other than that, the only solution is for rappers to come up with the music themselves. Let's just hope it never comes to that." =============================================================== "Gettin' piss-drunk, givin' the players a hard time, throwin' a chicken bone at the cop - that's what baseball is all about." -- a lout from Cleveland two rows in front of me at a Tigers game, waxing rhapsodic about how Indians games used to be Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles =============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:37:07 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [none] by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with SMTP id KAA06660 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from F11835.uwic.ac.uk by csu1.uwic.ac.uk (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA17875; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:46:22 GMT From: Craig N Grannell To: idealcopy@smoe.org cc: ST95010024@uwic.ac.uk Subject: Re: C's two pence worth Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:46:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: Simeon for Windows Version 4.0.9 X-Authentication: IMSP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Okay, time for my two pence worth, based on stuff that's being talked over the past two weeks: > How about a head count as well - a) for all those in favour of > "Experimentalism" or the wierd side of Wire. and B) for those > "Traditionalists" who are still digging the Rock thang.??! a AND b!! I reckon one should be able to use all types of music within work. There's no reason why both 'rock' and 'experimental' stuff canoot be done side by side, together or whatever. WIRE, even in their most recent forms are still doing both. BASTARD is certainly not just a 'dance' LP - it borrows as much from rock with its structures and sounds!! I think the argument that's been raging between whether rock or dance or exp music is better is so fucking redundant anyway. I mean - why the need to catagorise so much - and also consider how over western music is on this front. We (and I mostly mean USA, UK and a handful of other Euro countries) have the audacity to say MUSIC and then make tiny concensions to WORLD MUSIC when our 'own' stuff only makes up a relitively small amount of world releases. It is within the grey area between all these different types - by collaborations or new discoveries that the most interesting music is created. this is why I was very happy to see BASTARD and even though I'm not too keen on it HE SAID OMALA. Speaking of which ... >Whats worse is great musicians start picking up lazy > >songwriting habbits from the half wits and you get the new Colin Newman and > >He Said / Omala CD's. You can't tell me that the new He Said / Omala is > >1/10th the quality of "Hail" or "Take Care" for that matter. It sounds like > >each song has about 10 minutes of developement behind it which is simply a > >remotely interesting noise played over and over again > I cannot understand how one might say the tracks are not developed. Many have layer upon layer of sounds which create an interesing and moving soundscape and if one bothers to look at structure it is still similar to a lot of Colin's and indeed Wire's output - just without vox. And as Byrne said - vox are usually only there to get uninterested parties to listen for longer!! HMA is quite similar to DOME or even Aphex Twin. Caertainly nothing like the Mute HE SAID stuff but then I thought that was very POP and at times no different from Tears for Fears or any other band of that time. > To this I can only reply that all artists and musicians must evolve. I > personally feel that you can't compare these newer works with the older > ones; musical climates have changed, technology has upgraded. I agree with this quote! What is the point in doing he same thing twice? Think how awful the BUZZCOCKS sound now - - redoing all their old tunes that sound so fucking dated. Also - look at ELASTICA - they are returning to the old music scene of the seventies and sound like a boring punk band. By utilising new technology and encorporating it into one's reportoire new and exciting possibilities are created. > Perhaps if > these albums aren't as strong as their 80's counterparts, I think they are STRONGER and certainly more relevent. >At least with the pop guys like the Chemical Brothers the music > seems to have some point, but most techno music is just computer > wanking. Just piling up crap, track on track till you have a big chaotic > pile of crap. I'm not suggesting the boys should return to their combo > days, but for God's sake, make music. CHEMICAL BROTHERS? Oh, for f***'s sake ... half the time all they do is plunder other people's stuff ... and having heard their stuff through the years they do pile up tracks of noise!!! Why the hell does music need to have a point anyway? It is essentially the most abstract of the arts, particularly if the narrative content is removed. It doesn't NEED a point - - it just is. One theory about music's success (aside from obvious connections to hunting) is that is provides a link between the rational and creative sides of our brains! But I digress... >Since I am relatively new to this list, I am curioius about who people out >there think have musically appropriated/ripped off Wire. Obvious candidates here are ELASTICA and MENSWEAR, both rather naff British pop bands. Some early REM had Wire overtones too, I reckon. >Regardless, I >will attempt to defend He Said/Omala, hoping that my >defense isn't too >academic... Your comments about repetition are >understandable from a certain point of view, >[but] one can pick up on a lot of interesting things >happening in HS/O's repetition is you listen closely I find it odd that people are slagging off the new stuff 'cos it's too repetitive but saying how wonderful PINK FLAG is - most of those songs are just loops played over and over. I guess they are much shorter which might bring the argument to the problem of attention spans!! Mind you, I personally think PF is more tedious and far les interesting than, say, DOME or HSA. Must be the only Wire fan who thinks PF is merely okay :) >For me, it's a nice change from the canon (grip) >of the pop song structure, which if you think about it is >a pretty arbitrary >mold for so much music out there. Quite. The pop song is tradition within music but only a fairly recent one. Three minutes, verse-chorus-verse-chorus-middle8-tedium-tedium-. I'm not slating all pop but it seems there are many other things that can and are being done. Also, pop is such a small part of music history. Listen to some classical or music from non-western countries and one finds completely different structures. Now, when these are brought into the pop world interesting things happen. >We are at a unique point in history where the problem of >data storage is secondary to the problem of separating the >good from the bad. Nearly anybody can make a CD now and >it's only becoming easier. That's why there is so much >junk out there. Ironically, it's the punk ethic all over again. Punk was DIY for the art and music world but the quality or sound was more than often terrible. Now of course, due to the technology one may be able to produce a record at a fairly professional level. Of course, if the ideas aren't there then it won't sound any good but that's always been the case with music. >Also, you have to rely heavily on other people's >recommendations because you can't buy (or even find!) >everything. No different here either. Most people read the NME or Melody Maker or their US versions and then decide what to buy. They listen to the mass media rather than making up their own minds. Most of the people I know listen to complete crap - not because they truly like it but because if they don't their mates might think they're odd... >That's the great thing about the fellows in Wire - they >never do the same thing twice. Exactly. I'd rather have a new idea, even if it doesn't really work (Manscape, anyone?) than forty versions of Pink Flag. It's innovation that keeps the music world going and if there's one thing Wire got right - it's innovation. C. - --- c.n.grannell@uwic.ac.uk (until June 30 1998) cngrannell@yahoo.com (thereafter) - --- =============================================================== "Gettin' piss-drunk, givin' the players a hard time, throwin' a chicken bone at the cop - that's what baseball is all about." -- a lout from Cleveland two rows in front of me at a Tigers game, waxing rhapsodic about how Indians games used to be Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles =============================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:34:22 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: List Archive At 06:54 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hi, > >Will there be access to back issues of Idealcopy when you have a FAQ set >up, or even before? Another thing that needs to go in the list FAQ! The archives are at ; feel free to peruse. In the meantime, I'm copying the list on this message, so all will be revealed to our fellow travellers! later, listowner Miles =========================================================== "Looking out over the [Central Park] crowd... Garth Brooks' eyes got that crazed, fixated gleam they get from time to time. But this time his eyes had taken on a maniacal glint that suggested Goebbels staring out at a Nuremberg rally." -- John Bridges, the Nashville SCENE, Aug. 14, 1997 Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:39:23 -0500 (EST) From: Amanda Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) > 1: Original - '76-80 > 2: Reform - 85-90 > 3: Wir - 90-93 > 4: Gilbert & Lewis > 5: Newman > 6: Gilbert > 7: Lewis Another all-of-the-above! And I'm 26. Amanda - -- aschi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu aki@retina.net :=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=: "The avant-garde always ends up at WalMart sooner or later." -- A. Codrescu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:46:57 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Fwd: Re: Wire appropriators/facsimilies? Another post from Steve Jackson : - ----------------------- What about Menswear? Colin Newman or what? Or Elastica- They had to pay Wire royalties for ripping off "Three Girl Rhumba" on "Connection" and "Line Up" sounds like "I am the Fly" and there's another of theirs that sounds like "Being Sucked in Again" (My postings never seem to appear, so I'm sending replies to Newsgroup and author. Can someone acknowledge if I exist please!) Steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:47:02 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Fall and such like Another problem post, this one from Craig Grannell . Craig, is it the old "different address" problem we had earlier on? ==================================== > Specifically, Miles has just discovered The Fall, and so I put it to you > that despite some pretty obvious and significant musical distance between > Wire and The Fall, I bet there's a fairly large Fall-fan contingent here > on the Wire list. > The Fall are ace! Unfortunately MES seems to be destroying them! They are now a rather shambolic three piece after the bulk of the band left in the USA tour. The dates in the UK were utterly crap. Hopefully he'll go on a recruting drive soon or the Fall are finished. >But since I bought 458489 A SIDES on June 3rd, I don't think I've listened >to anything else. LEVITATE (the newish disc) is probably their best - very odd with its piss take jungle stuff. Great fun. - ---------------------- Craig Grannell c.n.grannell@uwic.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:56:18 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: list cleanup; advice for the bounced Phew! I think that's it for the problem messages -- sure were a lot over the last couple of weeks. Speak up if there's still something of yours that's missing, or a subscription request that's not gone through. Besides my earlier suggestions, let me encourage you to write me directly if your post doesn't show on the list in a couple of days (normally, posts are processed w/in a few minutes). You can reach me at outdoorminer@mindspring.com, wireadmin@mindspring.com, or miles.goosens@fanb.com. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:05:16 -0700 From: Chad Wilson Subject: RE: Which Wir(e) I have over 500 cd's and I like them all. Lorries is the undisputed best song in my collection of songs. Chalk Lorries up as one of the reasons one should never write off guitar based pop, every story has not been told. Chad (one of the 16 leaky boats...) - -----Original Message----- From: #rciscon [SMTP:rciscon@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 1998 2:39 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) [Chad Wilson] snip 5: From 'Lorries' (what a great song!!!), through 'Bastard'... good stuff Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:05:23 -0700 From: Chad Wilson Subject: RE: Is it me Is it you? I know the rules, I think my message was just too damn long! hehe... And this list works different from others I am on, that is you have to manually add the list to the reply as it defaults to the poster you are replying to and not the list. Chad - -----Original Message----- From: Miles Goosens [SMTP:outdoorminer@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, June 25, 1998 3:51 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Fwd: Is it me Is it you? Not to single Chad out, but it's standard netiquette to quote only the relevant sections of the message you're replying to, rather than include the whole of the previous message again. Selective quoting saves bandwidth and provides relevant context. I understand some mail programs automatically bump the previous message (on a reply) to the bottom, but there are usually workarounds to this. O.K.? O.K., cool. Remember, off-list replies to this message should be addressed to Chad at . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:00:38 -0700 From: Snarlo Subject: Re: Which Wir(e) >> 1: Original - '76-80 >> 2: Reform - 85-90 >> 3: Wir - 90-93 >> 4: Gilbert & Lewis >> 5: Newman >> 6: Gilbert >> 7: Lewis 1.154 2.Ideal Copy 3.Chairs Missing/Not To 4.Hail/Snake Drill 5.This Way to the Shivering Man/A-Z and of course, the greatest Wire single has to be "Outdoor Miner" w/piano section. I love listening to that at work while staring at my monitor. Peter, who is shockingly 30. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #64 ******************************