From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #59 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, June 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 059 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Phases.. [Mike Edwards ] Fw: Head count.. ["Alex Wise" ] Re: off topic - maybe - but then again, maybe... [flaherty michael w ] Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 ["charles / wmo" ] Re: Fw: Head count.. [Creaig Dunton ] Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 ["charles / wmo" ] Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 [Stewart Mason ] Re: Is it just me too? [Billy D ] Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 [Billy D ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:32:05 +0000 From: Mike Edwards Subject: Phases.. I guess I go through phases on which Wire I like the best. When they originally broke up I didn't lament the loss. With "154" it seemed like the really said all they could possibly say. The solo releases keep the Wire sound alive(Colin's stuff) and delved into the dark experimentation of the times(Dome/Gilbert&Lewis). At the time I clearly preferred the dark stuff. I loved Throbbing Gristle, Cab. Voltaire, Byrne/Eno, Hassell, etc, and noise was the ruling class. Punk seemed passe'. These days I have a tendency to bust out "A Bell is a cup..", or "On Returning " more often then Dome. I listened to"The First Letter" again recently and liked it much more than I did at the time. Drop me into the category of those who prefer it when they pervert the classic song structure. Mike E. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:36:31 +0100 From: "Alex Wise" Subject: Fw: Head count.. - ---------- > From: Creaig Dunton > To: gturner@tstar.net > Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Head count.. > Date: Saturday, 20 June 1998 1:03 > > > > Matthew Turner wrote: > > > Me too ... I listen to a lot of Whitehouse, Incapacitants, Merzbow ... > > experimental and improvised musics in general. I find that I usually > > have listening phases where I'll listen to harsh noise ect. for a month > > and then go back to listening to the more pop orientated stuff for a > > while. They cleanse the listening palate for each other. By the way, > > have you heard the new Whitehouse? I can't seem to find it anywhere ... > > Hmm...I'm almost the exact same way. Last month was mostly harsh noise (as > has been part of this month), now I'm listening to a lot of Joy Division, > Killing Joke, and Wire (who get spun throughout nearly every phase). As > for the new Whitehouse, it's genius. Much harsher than _Quality > Time_...supposedly more digital synths and production were used. On all > but about 1 of the tracks, the vocals are mixed rather low (though the > lyric booklet helps greatly). The only let down is that nearly half of the > disc (20 minutes) is just sampled soundbites of vicitims of various > crimes...other than that, it's great. If you can't find it, check > http://home.earthlink.net/~loaf/ He's got it for sale for $17 shipped. > > -- > Creaig D > http://2fmp.hypermart.net -> 2nd Floor Mafia Productions > http://2fmp.hypermart.net/mypage/ -> My Page > http://fpc.hypermart.net -> False Prophet Campaign > Speaking of Killing Joke are you on their mailing list the Gathering?It's pretty cool.Very similar atmosphere to this one only dedicated to KJ.The website for this mailing list and Killing Joke is http://music.dartmouth.edu/~dupras/kj/kj.html. Is it a big possibility that Wire inspired KJ in any sense as the guitar sounds have at times sounded similar between both groups. - -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:02:15 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: off topic - maybe - but then again, maybe... On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Andrew N Westmeyer wrote: > OK, this is getting even further off the topic, but I couldn't resist... > > What do you call someone who hangs around with musicians? > A drummer. > :) From Robert Fripp, at a recent concert: What do you call a drummer on his way to a musical concert? Optomistic How do you keep a guitarist from playing? Put sheet music in front of him. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:05:21 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #57 On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, charles / wmo wrote: > How about a head count as well - a) for all those in favour of > "Experimentalism" or the wierd side of Wire. and B) for those > "Traditionalists" who are still digging the Rock thang.??! > > charles/ a How about people who love both? But put me down as in favor of experimental music. Where ever their individual muses take them is where they should go. Michael Flaherty (who considers all Wire recordings to be at least somewhat experimental ...) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:01:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Is it just me too? On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Thom Heileson wrote: > grand art school tradition too. Anyway, I have heard examples where this kind > of repetition is just plain boring, but I think with theses and other artists > it can be really interesting. For me, it's a nice change from the canon (grip) > of the pop song structure, which if you think about it is a pretty arbitrary > mold for so much music out there. I think one problem some folks may have is that listening to large-scale, repetition-based music requires different listening strategies than listening to song-based music. ("Listening strategies?" What the fuck is this twit on about? Can't you just turn the damned CD player on?) If you listen expecting things to "happen," you may well be disappointed; if you listen to each moment as significant in itself, you may well be disappointed. The "point," often, is what happens to a sound when it repeats for long periods of time - it changes, if only perceptually (and sometimes solely on your own effort: try listening to a repetition based piece and consciously try to hear the sounds differently, as if activating an internal equalizer...). Reminds me when I was an undergrad - I was playing _18 Musicians_ (Steve Reich) and a friend banged on the door, bothered because "they just repeating that same pattern forever" - that's the point! (Of course, it isn't really the *same* pattern upon closer listening - as several have noted). - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n Department of English http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee ::crumple zones:::::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::::small-craft warning:: ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:36:19 -0700 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 >"Experimental" Music, well... No I don't really like it. Whether its >some homeless guy banging on an oil drum, or Bruce Gilbert sitting >behind expensive electronic equiptment, most of it sounds like "noise" For the record - Bruce NEVER sits behind "expensive" equipment, not did Wire for that matter. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:37:05 -0400 From: Creaig Dunton Subject: Re: Fw: Head count.. Alex Wise wrote: > Speaking of Killing Joke are you on their mailing list the Gathering?It's > pretty cool.Very similar atmosphere to this one only dedicated to KJ.The > website for this mailing list and Killing Joke is > http://music.dartmouth.edu/~dupras/kj/kj.html. > Is it a big possibility that Wire inspired KJ in any sense as the guitar > sounds have at times sounded similar between both groups. > Actually, no I haven't, but I will now, thanks! On a slightly related note between Wire and KJ, the first time I heard _The Ideal Copy_ (please excuse my newbie-ness, I just started listening to Wire about a year ago), I was instantly reminded of KJ's _Brighter than a Thousand Suns_. I don't know why, but I still hear similarities now (although Wire's disc is much better than the KJ one). Ironically, both discs were recorded at Hansa Tonstudios in Berlin, and rather close together chronologically.... - -- Creaig D http://2fmp.hypermart.net -> 2nd Floor Mafia Productions http://2fmp.hypermart.net/mypage/ -> My Page http://fpc.hypermart.net -> False Prophet Campaign ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:53:20 -0700 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 Somthing about the nineties - there are mutlitudes of records released. Rock, Techno, Experiental, Electronic. the number is like 1000s a week. So anyone with some gear, and the ubiquitous $1000 for 1000 CDs, can put out a releases. On the one hand (CarlG) this is a good thing. It's "democratic" and people can express themselves through music. But my point was who's listening? And as someone who HAS listened to a lot of music, I agree with MikeE's comment - I want a new experience. So the reaction to all this is to dismiss most music - because it can be found derivative. This in turn creates the need for a New Asthetic. The practive of listening to the same piece fo music over and over is less than 100 years old. Now that literly anyone can create "music for distribution" why would anyone want to listen to it - you can't listen to all of it. There needs to be a new standard for what is 'worth' listening to. The obvious answer is "what you like", but that was never the point... Of particular note I fing that Popular music (and I'm talking Billboard 100) is at an all time low for creativity. Why is this??? Over the past few years I have seriously got into New Age, Classical and World music because it offers things that Rock didn't - a new experience. But mainly I find myself returing to a lot of older music, revisiting the past, which of course shapes my future... and there's not a lot of that asthetic in current music! charles PS> Mike - I'll still "want" to listen to a Carl Craig, Vapospace or Juan Atkins record. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:28:20 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 At 09:53 AM 6/20/98 -0700, charles / wmo wrote: >Over the past few years I have seriously got into New Age, Classical and >World music because it offers things that Rock didn't - a new experience. >But mainly I find myself returing to a lot of older music, revisiting the >past, which of course shapes my future... and there's not a lot of that >asthetic in current music! Which seems an odd statement, since I think the ability to revisit older forms of music and mix and match elements from them until you've created something that sounds new is probably the dominant aesthetic of the nineties--look at the High Llamas, Stereolab, Air, Pizzicato Five, Beck, The Loud Family...you can pick apart their records and say, "Okay, this bit comes from here, and this comes from here," but the records never sound like their influences. You can do the same thing with PINK FLAG, actually. Stewart ****************************FLAMINGO RECORDS**************************** Box 40172 | Albuquerque NM 87196 | "There's some guy's steak." www.rt66.com/~flamingo | **********************HAPPY MUSIC FOR NICE PEOPLE*********************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:07:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy D Subject: Re: Is it just me too? I think some of us are forgetting 'The Drill'... BillyD p.s which I rather enjoy - ---Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Thom Heileson wrote: > > > grand art school tradition too. Anyway, I have heard examples where this kind > > of repetition is just plain boring, but I think with theses and other artists > > it can be really interesting. For me, it's a nice change from the canon (grip) > > of the pop song structure, which if you think about it is a pretty arbitrary > > mold for so much music out there. > > I think one problem some folks may have is that listening to large-scale, > repetition-based music requires different listening strategies than > listening to song-based music. ("Listening strategies?" What the fuck is > this twit on about? Can't you just turn the damned CD player on?) If you > listen expecting things to "happen," you may well be disappointed; if you > listen to each moment as significant in itself, you may well be > disappointed. The "point," often, is what happens to a sound when it > repeats for long periods of time - it changes, if only perceptually (and > sometimes solely on your own effort: try listening to a repetition based > piece and consciously try to hear the sounds differently, as if activating > an internal equalizer...). > > Reminds me when I was an undergrad - I was playing _18 Musicians_ (Steve > Reich) and a friend banged on the door, bothered because "they just > repeating that same pattern forever" - that's the point! (Of course, it > isn't really the *same* pattern upon closer listening - as several have > noted). > > --Jeff > > J e f f r e y N o r m a n Department of English > http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee > ::crumple zones:::::harmful or fatal if swallowed:::::small-craft warning:: > > > == _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:16:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy D Subject: Re: idealcopy-digest V1 #58 how many crappy rap bands with a Puff Daddy remix can the Billboard charts support? when will people realise that the music is shite. there aren't too many songs left to sample. Cheers, BillyD - ---charles / wmo wrote: > > Somthing about the nineties - there are mutlitudes of records released. > Rock, Techno, Experiental, Electronic. the number is like 1000s a week. So > anyone with some gear, and the ubiquitous $1000 for 1000 CDs, can put out a > releases. On the one hand (CarlG) this is a good thing. It's "democratic" > and people can express themselves through music. But my point was who's > listening? And as someone who HAS listened to a lot of music, I agree with > MikeE's comment - I want a new experience. So the reaction to all this is to > dismiss most music - because it can be found derivative. This in turn > creates the need for a New Asthetic. The practive of listening to the same > piece fo music over and over is less than 100 years old. Now that literly > anyone can create "music for distribution" why would anyone want to listen > to it - you can't listen to all of it. There needs to be a new standard for > what is 'worth' listening to. The obvious answer is "what you like", but > that was never the point... > > Of particular note I fing that Popular music (and I'm talking Billboard 100) > is at an all time low for creativity. Why is this??? > > Over the past few years I have seriously got into New Age, Classical and > World music because it offers things that Rock didn't - a new experience. > But mainly I find myself returing to a lot of older music, revisiting the > past, which of course shapes my future... and there's not a lot of that > asthetic in current music! > > charles > > PS> Mike - I'll still "want" to listen to a Carl Craig, Vapospace or Juan > Atkins record. > > == _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #59 ******************************