From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #56 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, June 18 1998 Volume 01 : Number 056 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: More on electronic Music ["Mack" ] Re: Is it just me too? [] Re: Is it just me? [flaherty michael w ] What made Wire great? and rambling [CliveNice@aol.com] Re:Is it me Is it you? ["charles / wmo" ] Fwd: Is it me Is it you? [CGerman@aol.com] Re: Michael Clark/electronic music [Thom Heileson ] Re: Finally: some action on this list! [Thom Heileson ] RE: Curious? ["Wilson, Chad" ] Re: Is it just me too? [Thom Heileson ] RE: Curious? ["Meddings, Anne L (Anne)" ] Re: Curious? [Stewart Mason ] Re: Is it just me too? [Andrew N Westmeyer ] Re: Is it just me? [Mike Edwards ] [Fwd: Is it just me?] [Mike Edwards ] Re: Is it just me? [Eric Scott ] Re: Curious? [Amanda ] Re: Michael Clark/electronic music [Snarlo ] Wire appropriators/facsimilies? [Snarlo ] Re: Curious? [Natsuko SANO ] RE: Wire appropriators/facsimilies? [Chad Wilson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:27:53 -0500 From: "Mack" Subject: Re: More on electronic Music >Weird, maybe I need to get my head examined... So, I love Old He Said, all >kraftwerk, (I have all of their albums, german imports sung in German, as >well as their US releases!) Depeche Mode, Dub Star, Single Gun Theory and a >small host of others. But for the life of me, I have been hard pressed to >find any *NEW* electronic music that I like. Given the above list, could >anyone recomend something else I might enjoy? welll... I have found alot of interesting stuff coming out of Japan. Haroumi Hosonon (Yellow Magic Orchestra) is constantly reinventing himself around electronic/american/tin-pan alley themes. His Daisyworld label has released consistantly fine stylisticly inconsistant music over the past few years. Of note are Swing Slow - a partnership w/ Miharu Koshi (vocalist and instrumentalist) World Standard (a 'country' album) The best place to start here is the compilation Daisyworld World Tour (not a live album) Other recent faves are miyako koda(ex. dip in the pool)/ Jupitor collabaration w/ hosono, peter scherer, towa tei and others less known in the West. Possibly my favorite album in some time. I buy Japanese releases almost exclusivly from http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/ohkura/ENGLISH/main.html Comfort. He only takes IPMOs but prices (especially these days) and service are supurb. I recently got Love. Peace and Trance (not exactly 'new', from '96) another Hosono produced collaboration. Also got a huge charge out of the last Gastr del Sol album , Camofleur. I guess this is more electro/acoustic edge/pop (God i HATE labels anyways) but there is sooooo little in the way of excitement in music one has to genre hop quite a bit. Maybe we are (at least I am) getting old. A year or two ago, my neighbor was blasting Jane's Addiction and I thought 'Yeesh, that's just noise' Then I remembered that was what my parents said about Meet The Beatles. But I like noise. (Gilbert, Metal Machine Music...) So are the ears untuned to new sounds, or are there really not any new sounds. Discuss d ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 98 10:15:16 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Is it just me too? >It just seems to me that >once sequencers and samplers got cheap and easy to use, every half wit >wannabe musician starts making "Dance", "Trance" and "Techno" music that is >truly tedious! For every innovator there will be ten thousand imitators. I will concede that the availability and low prices of current technology (sequencers, samplers, MIDI programs) does lead to thousands of charlatans believing that a few loops and synth washes are all it takes to be considered "music"; and yes, it can be a bit pricey trying to keep up with the torrents of new releases. I have never stated that everyone must like a certain type of music, however, I will always defend those underappreciated or unknown artists who stand out amongst the crowd. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when people start presenting their own opinion as fact (i.e. "Electronic music stinks"), I become a bit disturbed. As with all music, "Some Good, Some Bad". >Whats worse is great musicians start picking up lazy >songwriting habbits from the half wits and you get the new Colin Newman and >He Said / Omala CD's. You can't tell me that the new He Said / Omala is >1/10th the quality of "Hail" or "Take Care" for that matter. It sounds like >each song has about 10 minutes of developement behind it which is simply a >remotely interesting noise played over and over again To this I can only reply that all artists and musicians must evolve. I personally feel that you can't compare these newer works with the older ones; musical climates have changed, technology has upgraded. Perhaps if these albums aren't as strong as their 80's counterparts, you should at least compare them to what's available on the Billboard Top 20 to see what exactly constitutes a strong album. I could spend the rest of my life listening to He Said/Omala over shite like Smashmouth and Mariah Carey! Perhaps "Catch Supposes' isn't as poppy as "Hail" or "Take Care", it is merely different. I think the liner notes in Colin's "Bastard" sums up the general premise behind these works: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler."-A. Einstein. Minimalism has its place for everyone and everything. Whether listeners want to be part of it, however, is a different story! These are just my opinions and are subject to your approval and/or criticism. Any facts contained within these opinions are open to discussion. Cheers! Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:50:18 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Re: Is it just me? On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Mike Edwards wrote: > Does anybody else think that The Wire members output has been an > incredible bore for a while now? Well, obviously (by the response you received) it's not "just you." But it's not me. I like Colin Newman's new one > "Bastard", but as for the rest of it, I think it all stinks, and I mean > every minute of it. Based on your taste, I assume you to mean. Or have you found a standard we can all accept? New electronic music, and the whole D.J. culture is > just an incredible bore, and the music is lazy to the point of being > tedious. If you're throwing Wire into this group, I don't see it. What's "lazy" about trying to move in new directions throughout your entire career? It's alot harder than rearranging your old pop songs. At least with the pop guys like the Chemical Brothers the music > seems to have some point, but most techno music is just computer > wanking. Just piling up crap, track on track till you have a big chaotic > pile of crap. I'm not suggesting the boys should return to their combo > days, but for God's sake, make music. Is Dome Music? Is D & Eyew.? Is Celine Dion? Bruce Gilbert (who I seem to spend more time defending on this list than should be necessary) has said he's more interested in sounds than songs. Either you agree or don't. If not, well, don't buy his stuff anymore. It's not for everyone. But don't tune him out before you've really listened. I don't mean this to be an attack, I'm just surprised at how many Wire fans seem to just "want a good song." While Wire's albums are full of songs, they've always wanted to push the envelope one step further--this can certainly be seen in the first three albums. That twenty years later they would be working on the fringes doesn't surprise me. In other words, if I sound angry, I'm not. Just a bit surprised and confused. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:17:15 EDT From: CliveNice@aol.com Subject: What made Wire great? and rambling I think it would be a healthy dose of experimentation (kept in check, not like Yes), decent melodic pop, with lyrics that were usually clever, and rarely trite. When this mixture is altered heavily...it produces art wank music (i.e. Yes) or really stupid pop (i.e. REM, or the Beatles, Most "new" punk). You never knew what to expect when you bought a Wire alblum, but you knew that it would eventually grow on you (all of them for me, aside from Manscape, which sounded like they recorded it when had just woken up). I recently bought the Plastic Venus cd (Helven Park) it was pretty good, but their influences seemed a bit too clear for me to call it as anywhere near groundbreaking. As for new pop music (i'm sure i'll get flamed for this one) i liked Aqua okay...they're music was pretty funny and not too typical (okay it kinda was). As for pretty good old alblums (not by Wire) i liked one Rolling Stones alblum, it's called Their Satanic Majesties Request....it gets a bit "hippie- dippie" in parts, but over all it's fairly experimental in pop sort of way. Oh yeah, and Phillip Glass's (and Alan Ginsburg) Hydrogen Jukebox is pretty good...he uses a lot of noises thought sound similiar to the Happy, Happy Halloween song from, Halloween 3: Season of the Witch (you know, the one where Michael Myers takes a vacation). Robert. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:23:29 -0700 From: "charles / wmo" Subject: Re:Is it me Is it you? >>New electronic music..... is lazy to the point of being >>tedious I guess the point of this type of comment is going to be quite common for the next decade or so. The problem I have with song based "Rock" music (for lack of a better term) is that it's been around forever. I remember the Beatles, I was a teenager when I first heard Pink Flag. I've been listening to this for so fucking long - I don't think that it's out of place to say that the "Beat Combo" approach is over. Mathmatically, this could even be proven! What's out there? I'm over cheery melodies, boy-girl lyrics, I Hate the World lyrics, in fact lyrics and singing all together. THat more than anything has to be the most annoying aspect of "Rock" today. Half the reason I started WMO is that I LIKE old music. I have no problem listening to somehting 10, 20 or 30 years old. If it's good, it's still fresh. The problem (other than the obvious) I have with Hip-Hop is acute - who the fuck would want to listen to all those words - all set to the same beat??? Country, aside from being based on two rhythm structures (read boring), suffers the same problem - What sentimental bunk! Grunge was 100% recycled riffs - Take 1 part Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin and 1 part Wire = Seattle Sound. Anything with vocals, it's been done, close your mouth and go home. We're not listening. In the 90's I can think of exactly three "Rock" bands that actually had something new to offer. My Bloody Valentine (sampling in a Beat Combo context), Stereolab (charm, sugar and balls), and Long Fin Killie (virtuosity). I'd throw Seefeel/Scala into this for mixing Beats With Rock, and name check the Spinanes for writing some great songs. I'll offer this aas well about Post Rock - they're attempting to change the context, texture and pallette of Rock, but with decidingly overrated results. I've found more interesting music in the areas of World, New Age (don't laugh) and Classical (Modern) simply because the Pallette is New. So this leads me to Electronic Music. I take it we don't have too many teenagers on this list elsewise we'd have more support. I recently DJ'ed at a "party" in Pittsburgh. What did the "kids" want - beats, 100% percent beat. Admittingly it gets boring as fuck after 10 minutes, but at least they're not into the Gawk Worship my generation had with Beat Combos. Thus the limitaion to Dance is that it is one dimensional. BPM is one element and I'm not talking about Minimalism here either. The Chemical Bros or Crystal Methods are Rock Bands. Don't let anybody fool you - it's Rock Music done with electronics, and in a word, recycled. The point then is this: "Rock/Beat Combo" has been with us for 40 years. Creating music by electronic means (sampling, computers, etc...) is the future. ANYONE can do it. 30 years ago it was next to impossible to make an album - the means of production were owned by a record label, the cost therefore made independent release very limited. I can only imagine that my grand kids will laugh when they see a guitar and say "you used to make a noise with that? Why?" Technology today means anyone with a Computer or a sampler can make a Professional CD. In fact half the reason why Indie Rock died in the early 90's was that EVERYONE was making it. whether they had something to offer or not. Electronic music is in the same state. EVERYONE is doing it. Yes, 95% of the releases are crap because there are 95% too many releases. But's it's a backwards evolution. As for Wire, take Immersion. Colin and Malka fiddling with Techno. It's a really great record however. The problem is context. It's near impossible for a "Wire" fan that hasn't heard Detroit to place this record because they're head isn't in the right place. Much like all the pundits that saw 80's Wire pale to 70's Wire - If they were called a different Name, my bet is that people would be much more receptive. But context is important. Compare 154 to anyting else recorded in 1979. You can't. I'll be very curious to see what everyone thinks of Malka's new record because it's Bastard with Singing By Malka. The First Letter by Wir suffers the same. That record was 10 years before it's time. It's conceptually brilliant, but it also Rocks, Beats Style. I'll admit, some of the things Wire has released recently aren't that good. But give 'em a break - once again they are attempting to find new territory, lets just hope they keep exploring New Ground. I'll also be very curious to see what everyone thinks of Dugga Dugga Dugga as well. It's Wire's "Drill" - but it's decidingly electronic. In fact, in it's evolution, a third of the covers were scrapped because the were "too Rock based". THere was no way WMO was to release an album of a zillion versions of the same song, that sound like... the same song. So it's a hybrid, and IMHO, everything Whore isn't. A re-invention of the Drill. Thank you and Good Morning! charles/wmo - -------------------------------------------- wmo@interserv.com http://wiremailorder.com/ catalog@wiremailorder.com updated: April 07, 1998 - -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:40:09 EDT From: CGerman@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Is it me Is it you? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_898108809_boundary Content-ID: <0_898108809@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_898108809_boundary Content-ID: <0_898108809@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: CGerman@aol.com Return-path: To: wmo@interserv.com Subject: Re: Is it me Is it you? Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:36:03 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Geez.... I guess I won't send you a copy of our last gig!!!!! You come off sounding like someone who has just heard too much music! I mean.... rock sucks, most electronics suck, what's left? I look at it this way.... every thing cycles, no matter how anyone tries to steer it, it's all gonna come back sometime. Enjoy the ride. I started in electronic music in the early eighties, when allmost no one was into it. By the end of the eighties I was bored shitless by it. Not just by what I was doing with it, but also by what else I was happening with it. Too much knob twisting, not enough substance, i.e: emotion, conviction, human experience. Now I'm back to guitar bands, where I started when I was 15, listening to Wire, and am actually enjoying myself again in terms of my musical output. Every book has already been written, why would one write more? I mean , why write at all? How gives a fuck what anyone has to say. We've read it all before!!! The same could be said about lyrics, but..... people will always want to sing. As long as the human spirit survives, there will be singing... and lyrics. After the BIG WAR we will not be sitting around fires playing TR-909's and SH-101's, we will, on the other hand, be singing! By the way Charles you have a very nice singing voice, judging by your performance on the road trip to Pittsburgh! Your XTC was good, but your David Sylvian was exceptional ;) !!!! Who are you trying to kid. I KNOW you love a good lyric! So... shut up and SING!!!!! - Carl. BTW: I ordered your 920. - --part0_898108809_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:25:05 -0800 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Michael Clark/electronic music Snarlo wrote: > So...the question is: does anyone know what Michael Clark has been up to > in recent years? Last I remember was his performance in Peter Greenaway's > "Prospero's Books". Interesting! Which part did he play - Caliban perhaps? > Bruce Gilbert's "Do You Me? I Did' must have been incredible when heard > with Clark's dance performance to it...as I'm sure The Fall's collaboration > on "I am Curious: Orange" must have been a total spectacle! I too would love to see the Gilbert dance pieces, and lament that there are apparently no available video tapes documenting them (?)... as far as Curious Orange, all I've seen of it is the music video for the title track with the dancers performing - which was pretty intriguing. I think that, aside from the M. Clark connection, the basic connection between The Fall and Wire is that their early work had a somewhat similar aural texture. I happen to think that the Wire folk developed and expanded their textural repertoire in much more interesting ways... but both bands were always unique to a similar degree. - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson University of Washington School of Art Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:51:38 -0800 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Michael Clark/electronic music > > > So what are you other voyeurs' electro-musical favorites? Electronic music being the "genre" that I've been following probably most of all lately, I wouldn't know where to begin. I emphatically [second? third/fourth?] the comment that electronic music comprises such a huge spectrum that it's ridiculous to make blanket value judgements. There is indeed a lot of uninventive trash out there, but there are immensely creative things being done both in dance music and in more ambient, "sonic sculpture" areas. (One thing about a lot of e-music is that it's not about _songs_ per se, but about soundscapes, and some folx are just more into songs.) Peter mentioned Mouse On Mars - I'd recommend also a related project called Microstoria, and a band called Oval, which is similar - very interesting an innovative sound arrangements, not just in terms of texture but also melodically (though the melodic elements are hard to get a handle on without repeated listenings). In terms of 'song music', Mouse On Mars helped create Stereolab's Dots & Loops album, which has some brilliant song-writing per se in addition to funky noises. Also, Autechre Coil Scala / Seefeel etc., etc. > but of course give me a distorted, loud guitar any day too (post-punk > preferably please). I've been getting some of my loud guitar fixes from Main and Third Eye Foundation... And still waiting for that damn My Bloody Valentine album! I'm hopeless that way. - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson University of Washington School of Art Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy D Subject: elektronic musik My fave cd so far this year is Computer's 'The World Of Tomorrow' which is very Kraftwerk-like(circa 'The Man Machine'). Other stuff: Yamo-'Time Pie' B.E.F.-'Music For Listening To. any Aphex Twin pre-'Dare' Human League There is so much more good electronic music out there. But, there is a LOT of bad stuff. Cheers, BillyD _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:07:31 -0800 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Finally: some action on this list! > the Chain > Reaction label (notably Porter Ricks, Vainquer, and Various Artists); I've heard, and loved, a couple Porter Ricks tracks on comp tapes, but have been unable to find any full lengths - do you have any contact info for Chain Reaction, and/or recommendations? Thanks for the comprehensive reco's list! I left all Wire-related stuff out of my comments before - I do indeed think that the electronic work being done by all three is some of the most interesting going on right now - each in very different ways. Also forgot to mention the solo stuff by Paul Kendall, who's worked with Wir and Bruce in the past. His Piquet:The Faulty Caress and Kendall Turner Overdrive (re-constructions of Simon Fisher Turner work) are really envelope-pushing experimental works. - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson University of Washington School of Art Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:19:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Billy D Subject: Curious? I was curious to know if any women are on this list. It seems we are all a bunch of computer geeks sitting around typing about things only we know about... :-) Cheers, BillyD _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:29:13 -0700 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: RE: Curious? I have a sinking feeling you are correct! Chad - Microsoft Certified Computer Geek working as a double agent on behalf of the Amiga! hehe... > -----Original Message----- > From: Billy D [SMTP:xj23@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 1:20 PM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Curious? > > I was curious to know if any women are on this list. > It seems we are all a bunch of computer geeks sitting around typing > about things only we know about... > :-) > > Cheers, > BillyD > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:41:36 -0800 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: Is it just me too? > You can't tell me that the new He Said / Omala is > 1/10th the quality of "Hail" or "Take Care" for that matter. No, but I can tell you that IMO it's just as good as either... :) Just a drastically different conception of song structure. > It sounds like > each song has about 10 minutes of developement behind it which is simply a > remotely interesting noise played over and over again. Just my opinion, > maybe I did'nt spend enough time in art school? Hehehe... Well, seeing as I _just_ received my MFA degree, there is a distinct possibility that I've spent way too much time in art school! Regardless, I will attempt to defend He Said/Omala, hoping that my defense isn't too academic... Your comments about repetition are understandable from a certain point of view, but I think that one can pick up on a lot of interesting things happening in HS/O's repetition is you listen closely enough. It works - as does a lot of electronica these days - on sort of a serialist tradition, where a rhythmic element is introduced, then another, and another (and elements leave or circle back in long/short patterns)... until you have this rich latticework of sounds. It's the same kind of thing going on in LFO's mixes of He Said, in "Naked, Whooping and Such-Like", and in the instrumental parts of The Drill album. (as well as in stuff by Coil, others) I personally think that the resulting network of aural patterns can be very beautiful as a listening experience: often the effect is one of a moving-through a 'place' - especially when, almost undetectably, the gamut of rhythms & sounds changes completely over time. Hm, that may have sounded more flakey than academic, but hey flakiness is a grand art school tradition too. Anyway, I have heard examples where this kind of repetition is just plain boring, but I think with theses and other artists it can be really interesting. For me, it's a nice change from the canon (grip) of the pop song structure, which if you think about it is a pretty arbitrary mold for so much music out there. - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson University of Washington School of Art Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:32:18 -0400 From: "Meddings, Anne L (Anne)" Subject: RE: Curious? > > I was curious to know if any women are on this list.< > well here's one. lurking, but here nonetheless. anne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:03:09 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: Curious? At 01:19 PM 6/17/98 -0700, Billy D wrote: >I was curious to know if any women are on this list. >It seems we are all a bunch of computer geeks sitting around typing >about things only we know about... >:-) For the record, there *are* female computer geeks, as well as female music geeks and female Wire fans. My closest friend fits all three categories, actually. In particular, she's absolutely mad for the ON RETURNING era. Stewart ****************************FLAMINGO RECORDS**************************** Box 40172 | Albuquerque NM 87196 | "There's some guy's steak." www.rt66.com/~flamingo | **********************HAPPY MUSIC FOR NICE PEOPLE*********************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:13:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew N Westmeyer Subject: Re: Is it just me too? As long as everyone else is rambling, I might as well join in... Everything hasn't been done with music, even if you restrict discussion to the standard guitar beat-combo. It's like saying that everything has already been invented or that every story has been written. True, the number of distinct themes is a small number. But the devil is in the details. Grunge was mildly different than Sabbath, but other new guitar styles may be more original. We are at a unique point in history where the problem of data storage is secondary to the problem of separating the good from the bad. Nearly anybody can make a CD now and it's only becoming easier. That's why there is so much junk out there. Also, you have to rely heavily on other people's recommendations because you can't buy (or even find!) everything. The tools and instruments of music are also becoming cheaper. I suspect that many new ideas are emerging right now. That's the great thing about the fellows in Wire - they never do the same thing twice. The HSO album is totally different than the HALO one, and I can only wonder how different Malka's upcoming album will differ from Bastard. Whew, now I feel better! Hey, if anyone is near Lubbock, Texas, please let me know, because I'm trapped here through July and I'm already dieing of boredom! (A)ndrew Westmeyer qwerty@cmu.edu www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~qwerty "What a blessing that so much of humanity is able to be alive at the same time as myself." -Cecil Adams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:43:36 +0000 From: Mike Edwards Subject: Re: Is it just me? I probably wasn't as clear about what I was trying to say as I should have been. I'm a big Dome, Gilbert/Lewis fan,too, and you make a good point, being, is that music? Well, touche!, but for me the recent output has left me dry. It would be laughable for the members of Wire to collectively or seperately try to relive their past. I just want to be amazed again. Mike E. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:04:09 +0000 From: Mike Edwards Subject: [Fwd: Is it just me?] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------EE47917356196EE1B1D1C563 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the letter I was responding to in my previous e-mail. Mike - --------------EE47917356196EE1B1D1C563 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mx01.erols.com ([207.172.3.241]) by mta2. (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118) with ESMTP id <19980617155335.KMYY14971@mx01.erols.com> for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:53:35 -0400 Received: from rice.farm.niu.edu (rice.farm.niu.edu [131.156.99.2]) by mx01.erols.com (8.8.8-970530/8.8.5/MX-980323-gjp) with ESMTP id LAA18495 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (z946128@localhost) by rice.farm.niu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21532; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:50:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:50:18 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w X-Sender: z946128@rice To: Mike Edwards cc: "idealcopy@smoe.org" Subject: Re: Is it just me? In-Reply-To: <3586B375.147E4534@erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Mike Edwards wrote: > Does anybody else think that The Wire members output has been an > incredible bore for a while now? Well, obviously (by the response you received) it's not "just you." But it's not me. I like Colin Newman's new one > "Bastard", but as for the rest of it, I think it all stinks, and I mean > every minute of it. Based on your taste, I assume you to mean. Or have you found a standard we can all accept? New electronic music, and the whole D.J. culture is > just an incredible bore, and the music is lazy to the point of being > tedious. If you're throwing Wire into this group, I don't see it. What's "lazy" about trying to move in new directions throughout your entire career? It's alot harder than rearranging your old pop songs. At least with the pop guys like the Chemical Brothers the music > seems to have some point, but most techno music is just computer > wanking. Just piling up crap, track on track till you have a big chaotic > pile of crap. I'm not suggesting the boys should return to their combo > days, but for God's sake, make music. Is Dome Music? Is D & Eyew.? Is Celine Dion? Bruce Gilbert (who I seem to spend more time defending on this list than should be necessary) has said he's more interested in sounds than songs. Either you agree or don't. If not, well, don't buy his stuff anymore. It's not for everyone. But don't tune him out before you've really listened. I don't mean this to be an attack, I'm just surprised at how many Wire fans seem to just "want a good song." While Wire's albums are full of songs, they've always wanted to push the envelope one step further--this can certainly be seen in the first three albums. That twenty years later they would be working on the fringes doesn't surprise me. In other words, if I sound angry, I'm not. Just a bit surprised and confused. Michael Flaherty - --------------EE47917356196EE1B1D1C563-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:11:49 +0000 From: Eric Scott Subject: Re: Is it just me? Mike Edwards wrote: > Does anybody else think that The Wire members output has been an > incredible bore for a while now? I like Colin Newman's new one > "Bastard", but as for the rest of it, I think it all stinks, and I mean > every minute of it. New electronic music, and the whole D.J. culture is > just an incredible bore, and the music is lazy to the point of being > tedious. At least with the pop guys like the Chemical Brothers the music > seems to have some point, but most techno music is just computer > wanking. Just piling up crap, track on track till you have a big chaotic > pile of crap. I'm not suggesting the boys should return to their combo > days, but for God's sake, make music. > Just a thought, > Mike Edwards > P.S. Big Fall fan, too. > Sorry to begin like this, but must music have a "point"? I assume we are all fans (on this list) thanks to our confidence in the long-term talents of messrs. Lewis, Gilbert, Newman and Gotobed etc. The continuing movement to develop an interesting and effective musical language is what has made Wire's music so engaging for nearly 20 years now. Need I remind people (and I'm sure I don't as we're *Wire fans*) that experimental and electronic *techno* music has not always had the easiest marriage in a mainstream- music-buying public...except of course when MTV's AMP manages to repackage it...(clever boys). The most truly perfect thing about music is that it is truly meaningless. And I'm sorry, but the nature of much 'conventional' music is seldom more than a renewed attempt to recreate the storytelling or narrative process...that music can be so non-linear is what makes it so powerful a medium. It was unusual and a bit disconcerting (though kind) to see Mr. Edwards (quoted above) honor "Bastard"…while apparently dismissing electronica, drum'n'bass, leftfield, trip-hop, jungle and all else recent...or for the moment anyways... Please don't get me wrong, I share the point of view that "laziness sucks." I'm an advocate of quality products. I have always felt that the members of Wire have been important players in the areas of both sound & rhythm as much as anything else... but I really do fear that, if we forget what the very nature of (electronic) music can & must ultimately be, we might continue re-living and re-inventing the same music some more... I only hope the rest of this list has a thought or two on this matter so that I don't end up hogging the podium here. Sorry for the tirade (though I must), Eric Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: Amanda Subject: Re: Curious? > I was curious to know if any women are on this list. Yes. Amanda (who met her husband because he knew the line following "fishponds and a madman's honey") ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:10:39 -0700 From: Snarlo Subject: Re: Michael Clark/electronic music At 12:25 PM 6/17/98 -0800, Thom Heileson wrote: >Snarlo wrote: > >> So...the question is: does anyone know what Michael Clark has been up to >> in recent years? Last I remember was his performance in Peter Greenaway's >> "Prospero's Books". > >Interesting! Which part did he play - Caliban perhaps? > You are very astute--he did play Caliban in a very sexually provocative manner. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:26:03 -0700 From: Snarlo Subject: Wire appropriators/facsimilies? Since I am relatively new to this list, I am curioius about who people out there think have musically appropriated/ripped off Wire. The most blatant I have ever heard is the now defunct British group Disco Inferno. Their album "D.I. Go Pop" (Bar None records in the US, Rough Trade UK I think) from 1994 is the best kind of homage to Wire circa "154", not just musically but vocally! The singer really manages to sound an awful lot like Colin at his most dramatic moments. I highly recommend this album, and even better it is often found very cheap in the used bins of your favorite record shop. The other Disco Inferno release I own (on Carrott Top records) is a compilation of an earlier album with some singles, and owes a lot more to Joy Division stylistically, but is still quite interesting. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:55:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Natsuko SANO Subject: Re: Curious? - ---Billy D wrote: > > I was curious to know if any women are on this list. Here's another one... Natsuko _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:23:20 -0700 From: Chad Wilson Subject: RE: Wire appropriators/facsimilies? After reading this post I went to www.dcnow.com and listened to some real audio of D.I. and wow, you are right! "A Crash at Every Speed" Sounds like Colin could be guest vocaling, very dark stuff! Im going to order it!!! hehe... Chad - -----Original Message----- From: Snarlo [SMTP:repetti@uclink4.berkeley.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 1998 10:26 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Wire appropriators/facsimilies? Since I am relatively new to this list, I am curioius about who people out there think have musically appropriated/ripped off Wire. The most blatant I have ever heard is the now defunct British group Disco Inferno. Their album "D.I. Go Pop" (Bar None records in the US, Rough Trade UK I think) from 1994 is the best kind of homage to Wire circa "154", not just musically but vocally! The singer really manages to sound an awful lot like Colin at his most dramatic moments. I highly recommend this album, and even better it is often found very cheap in the used bins of your favorite record shop. The other Disco Inferno release I own (on Carrott Top records) is a compilation of an earlier album with some singles, and owes a lot more to Joy Division stylistically, but is still quite interesting. Peter ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #56 ******************************