From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #55 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, June 17 1998 Volume 01 : Number 055 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Fw: ?/Wire + The Fall? ["Alex Wise" ] Re: ?/Wire + The Fall? ["Jim Mortleman" ] Shivering Man Dance [flaherty michael w ] Is it just me? [Mike Edwards ] RE: Is it just me? ["Wilson, Chad" ] Re: Is it just me? [] Re: Is it just me? [Stewart Mason ] Michael Clark/electronic music [Snarlo ] Re: Michael Clark/electronic music [Snarlo ] Re: ?/Wire + The Fall? [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Finally: some action on this list! [] Re: Is it just me? (Off-topic) [] Re: Michael Clark/electronic music [Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey ] Is it just me too? [Chad Wilson ] Re: More on electronic Music [Stewart Mason ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:21:46 +0100 From: "Alex Wise" Subject: Fw: ?/Wire + The Fall? Ballet Dancer Michael Clarke has performed ballets in connection with both The Fall and Bruce Gilbert including two in 1984 being New Puritan(The Fall) and Do You Me?I Did(BG).He is largely mentioned in autobiographies of both groups. - -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:04:11 +0100 From: "Jim Mortleman" Subject: Re: ?/Wire + The Fall? (Hi, only joined the list recently. First post. I'm based in the UK and have followed Wire since their Mute reformation, although I was already listening to Dome, AC Marias and other Wire spin-offs before that.) I once had a video of Michael Clarke dancing to Bruce's The Shivering Man on C4's great early-80s avant-garde music/art/performance show Alter Image (anyone else remember it?). Unfortunately, it was on a Betamax cassette and accidentally got thrown out when I made a belated switch to VHS. However, I've got the CD and whenever I play it I have this clear image of Clarke - white and zombie-like - shivering violently as sand falls out of his sleeves. I also saw Clarke perform I Am Curious Orange live with The Fall. It must be nearly ten years ago, and all I can remember from the show are dancers dressed as McDonald's burgers and fries, and Brix Smith on a swing. Jim. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:27:04 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Shivering Man Dance n Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Jim Mortleman wrote: > I once had a video of Michael Clarke dancing to Bruce's The Shivering Man on > C4's great early-80s avant-garde music/art/performance show Alter Image > (anyone else remember it?). Yes. It was really great to see the movement that fits with Bruce's sounds. Unfortunately, I don't have a tape either. It would be great if these performances were all available (meaning videos of the dances Gilbert wrote music for), but I realise that we're lucky to be able to get the CDs, much less a video. The downside (only one I know of) to not having "popular" tastes. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:03:34 +0000 From: Mike Edwards Subject: Is it just me? Does anybody else think that The Wire members output has been an incredible bore for a while now? I like Colin Newman's new one "Bastard", but as for the rest of it, I think it all stinks, and I mean every minute of it. New electronic music, and the whole D.J. culture is just an incredible bore, and the music is lazy to the point of being tedious. At least with the pop guys like the Chemical Brothers the music seems to have some point, but most techno music is just computer wanking. Just piling up crap, track on track till you have a big chaotic pile of crap. I'm not suggesting the boys should return to their combo days, but for God's sake, make music. Just a thought, Mike Edwards P.S. Big Fall fan, too. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:54:29 -0700 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: RE: Is it just me? It is definately not just you... I really don't even listen to Bastard much, but I must admit I like it more every time I do! I found myself starting to lose interest around Manscape myself, but found The Third Letter to be cool, again, after multiple listens. Funny thing is that A Bell is a Cup had just as much sampling and looping as any of this new stuff, but it was done as a means to a beautiful musical end. Now it seams most of this music is about "Wow, thats hard to do on a keyboard and sampler, nice technique dude..." but no soul stirring moods, lyrics or anything else to take it over the top. Kinda like computer programs that exist to be cool computer programs rather than cool songs. Chad - "Everybody Loves a History" and that would definately be me... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Edwards [SMTP:pakeough@erols.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 11:04 AM > To: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Is it just me? > > Does anybody else think that The Wire members output has been an > incredible bore for a while now? I like Colin Newman's new one > "Bastard", but as for the rest of it, I think it all stinks, and I > mean > every minute of it. New electronic music, and the whole D.J. culture > is > just an incredible bore, and the music is lazy to the point of being > tedious. At least with the pop guys like the Chemical Brothers the > music > seems to have some point, but most techno music is just computer > wanking. Just piling up crap, track on track till you have a big > chaotic > pile of crap. I'm not suggesting the boys should return to their combo > days, but for God's sake, make music. > Just a thought, > Mike Edwards > P.S. Big Fall fan, too. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 21:32:09 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Is it just me? >New electronic music..... is lazy to the point of being >tedious I think a comment like this is lazy and tedious and takes no amount of thought. Perhaps if some people looked in the right direction (meaning anywhere other than up their own ass) they might be able to locate some brilliant electronic music out there complete with emotions, skill, and technique. Granted, 95 % of music is utter garbage, but you cannot simply write off several genres in one catch-all phrase. Feeling Grumpy Tonight Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:45:13 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: Is it just me? At 09:32 PM 6/16/98 -0400, auteur@ix.netcom.com wrote: >>New electronic music..... is lazy to the point of being >>tedious > >I think a comment like this is lazy and tedious and takes no amount of >thought. Perhaps if some people looked in the right direction (meaning >anywhere other than up their own ass) they might be able to locate some >brilliant electronic music out there complete with emotions, skill, and >technique. Granted, 95 % of music is utter garbage, but you cannot simply >write off several genres in one catch-all phrase. Seems pretty lazy and tedious to make a statement like this without making some suggestions for the rest of us as to what the good stuff is. (For the record, I think you can't go wrong with any of Experimental Audio Research's many releases. If you prefer your electronics with a bit more pop, Mouse On Mars have made some wonderful albums, and if you want a more-pop-than-electronics listening experience, Air's MOON SAFARI is one of the more enchanting albums of 1998 so far.) While I happen to be a big fan of various electronic musics, I think a lot of Our Boys' work in the field--as a band, in various combinations and solo--is in fact pretty boring. It was fascinating to read about how THE FIRST LETTER was constructed, but unfortunately, that didn't make it any more interesting to listen to. On the other hand, the Dome records, especially "Waterloo Gallery," are really intriguing. Stewart, whose most recent Wire purchase was a new copy of TURNS AND STROKES in the $4 remainder bin at Nob Hill Books and Music ****************************FLAMINGO RECORDS**************************** Box 40172 | Albuquerque NM 87196 | "Lemurs are cool. They www.rt66.com/~flamingo | have cute tongues." **********************HAPPY MUSIC FOR NICE PEOPLE*********************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:50:11 -0700 From: Snarlo Subject: Michael Clark/electronic music So...the question is: does anyone know what Michael Clark has been up to in recent years? Last I remember was his performance in Peter Greenaway's "Prospero's Books". Bruce Gilbert's "Do You Me? I Did' must have been incredible when heard with Clark's dance performance to it...as I'm sure The Fall's collaboration on "I am Curious: Orange" must have been a total spectacle! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:08:20 -0700 From: Snarlo Subject: Re: Michael Clark/electronic music At 06:50 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Snarlo wrote: >So...the question is: does anyone know what Michael Clark has been up to >in recent years? Last I remember was his performance in Peter Greenaway's >"Prospero's Books". > >Bruce Gilbert's "Do You Me? I Did' must have been incredible when heard >with Clark's dance performance to it...as I'm sure The Fall's collaboration >on "I am Curious: Orange" must have been a total spectacle! > > > > Oh, I forgot the "electronic music" part of my message... So one can establish that one either likes electronic music or not. If one does like electronic music/electronically-inspired music, that is such a far reaching realm that blanket statements are really difficult to make (even though I've been guilty of one or two in my time of course!). Electronic music music I find quite enjoyable (being a Wire fan of course) is: Mouse on Mars Aphex Twin Squarepusher Saint Etienne Gus Gus Magnetic Fields Pizzicato 5 Stereolab Massive Attack Barry Adamson Air Momus Silver Apples Baby Bird (the lo-fi albums) Tortoise good old Kraftwerk (saw them live for the first time a week ago--similar enraptured experience that I felt when seeing Wire for the first time at Maxwell's in Hoboken NJ for "The Ideal Copy" tour) So what are you other voyeurs' electro-musical favorites? but of course give me a distorted, loud guitar any day too (post-punk preferably please). love, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:16:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: ?/Wire + The Fall? On Mon, 15 Jun 1998, Mack wrote: > Maybe we could leave it as a common niche mentality. > Bothe bands generate output with little real commercial application > Yet they have kept at it against all odds for an incredibly long time > I know wire as an entity did not persevere quite so long in either > formation. > At very least, we could assume that both bands earliest days were of a > similar time, and at the start, > the distance between them musically was not so great. I think a perhaps under-noticed aspect of both bands is their part-time status as pop bands. That is, both bands are certainly not known for producing pop songs (i.e., post-Beatles, hummable tunes in more-or-less trad song structure), but both have done so consistently, one or two tracks per album. In fact, one might argue that "Wire" is really the name used to signify the more approaching-pop moments of Gilbert/Lewis/Newman/Gotobed's musical output. - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n Department of English http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee ::I feel that all movies should have things that happen in them. :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::TV's Frank:: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 22:49:21 -0400 From: Subject: Finally: some action on this list! >Seems pretty lazy and tedious to make a statement like this without making >some suggestions for the rest of us as to what the good stuff is. Well then.... Allow me to elaborate upon my initial posting (perhaps I should offer some suggestions alphabetically): Please read if you are interested in this discussion. AUTECHRE: this duo creates absolutely stunning pieces, both ambient and/or rhythmic; the complex structures and sounds utilized are truly like no other. They set up a feeling of claustrophobia and paranoia to some. COIL: I have often compared the output of this band with that of Wire, not necessarily in style, but in the endless pushing of musical boundaries. They have moved through "post-industrial" beginnings, pagan influences, electronic sound manipulation, brilliant lyrics, "deep listening", etc. They were using samplers long before the majority of current artists. FETISCH PARK: from sound collage to vicious stripped-down beats to soothing chimelike trancey pieces used to test the listening capabilities of unborn infants, they are constantly implementing emotions into their work. LEGENDARY PINK DOTS: incorporate a great deal of electronics and twisted "folk" and "rock" into one of the moodiest and beautiful bands I have ever heard. Their music can transport you to many different places. Incredibly prolific and always of the highest quality. PABLO'S EYE: all of their releases display a dreamlike state. Their work is very mellow, with ethnic elements, sampled guitars and drums, patches of dialogue and more. Their releases on the Extreme label are excellent. Looking forward to their new album on swim~. SONS OF SILENCE/ A SMALL GOOD THING: members of O Yuki Conjugate create a collage of elements from spaghetti-western style guitar, trip-hop and dub, ambient, spoken word, and sound manipulation. Incredibly varied and diverse: something for everyone on these releases. SOMA: David Thrussell (Black Lung) and Pieter Bourke (Dead Can Dance) blend tribal beats, sinister soundscapes, propulsive dance beats and electronics into a seamless mix. Another "band" on the Extreme label. These are just a few singular selections: I also heartily recommend anything else on the Extreme label from Australia; most releases on Colin Newman's swim~ label (particularly Lobe, Cusp, and Immersion); the Chain Reaction label (notably Porter Ricks, Vainquer, and Various Artists); many releases on the Dorobo/iridium label (Shinjuku Thief, TCH). Some more names (some of which you may already be familiar): Bowery Electric, Cluster, FUSE, H.A.L.O, He Said Omala, Thomas Koner, Lustmord, Muslimgauze, Peter Namlook, Node, Plastikman, Robert Rich, Steve Roach, SETI, Malka Spigel, Tactile, zoviet:france. By this information I stand by the fact that there is an abundance of positive, intelligent, expressive, emotional "electronic" music being created in today's musical boxing ring. Cheers! Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 98 22:54:55 -0400 From: Subject: Re: Is it just me? (Off-topic) >Air's MOON SAFARI is one of >the more enchanting albums of 1998 so far. And the video for "Sexy Boy" has my vote for best video of the year so far! ..."Comme un dieu!" Throwing in another post, Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:15:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeffrey with 2 Fs Jeffrey Subject: Re: Michael Clark/electronic music On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Snarlo wrote: > Mouse on Mars > Aphex Twin > Squarepusher > Saint Etienne > Gus Gus > Magnetic Fields > Pizzicato 5 > Stereolab > Massive Attack > Barry Adamson > Air > Momus > Silver Apples > Baby Bird (the lo-fi albums) > Tortoise > good old Kraftwerk (saw them live for the first time a week ago--similar > enraptured experience that I felt when seeing Wire for the first time at > Maxwell's in Hoboken NJ for "The Ideal Copy" tour) Not to join the parade jumping on Anti-Electro's back (sorry, I forgot who posted that one), but the sheer *range* of the above artists' music ought to be enough to prove the absurdity of making such blanket statements. (Which would never stop me from making blanket statements about, say, metal sucking horribly.) Jeff Ceci n'est pas une .sig ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:03:45 -0700 From: Chad Wilson Subject: More on electronic Music Weird, maybe I need to get my head examined... So, I love Old He Said, all kraftwerk, (I have all of their albums, german imports sung in German, as well as their US releases!) Depeche Mode, Dub Star, Single Gun Theory and a small host of others. But for the life of me, I have been hard pressed to find any *NEW* electronic music that I like. Given the above list, could anyone recomend something else I might enjoy? Chad ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:07:22 -0700 From: Chad Wilson Subject: Is it just me too? I think 95% of country music is utter garbage, thats why I don't listen to it or buy it. On the other hand give me 100 Wire, R.E.M. or Thin White Rope songs and I MIGHT be able to find 5 that I don't like. I don't know about the rest of you but I don't have the expendible income to "experiment" with electronic music when, like you said, 95% of it is garbage. For me it is not as simple as saying "Electronic Music is Garbage" when my second favorite album of all time is "Hail" (He Said). It just seems to me that once sequencers and samplers got cheap and easy to use, every half wit wannabe musician starts making "Dance", "Trance" and "Techno" music that is truly tedious! Whats worse is great musicians start picking up lazy songwriting habbits from the half wits and you get the new Colin Newman and He Said / Omala CD's. You can't tell me that the new He Said / Omala is 1/10th the quality of "Hail" or "Take Care" for that matter. It sounds like each song has about 10 minutes of developement behind it which is simply a remotely interesting noise played over and over again. Just my opinion, maybe I did'nt spend enough time in art school? Hehehe... Chad - -----Original Message----- From: auteur@ix.netcom.com [SMTP:auteur@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 6:32 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: Is it just me? >New electronic music..... is lazy to the point of being >tedious I think a comment like this is lazy and tedious and takes no amount of thought. Perhaps if some people looked in the right direction (meaning anywhere other than up their own ass) they might be able to locate some brilliant electronic music out there complete with emotions, skill, and technique. Granted, 95 % of music is utter garbage, but you cannot simply write off several genres in one catch-all phrase. Feeling Grumpy Tonight Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:11:01 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: More on electronic Music At 09:03 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Chad Wilson wrote: >Weird, maybe I need to get my head examined... So, I love Old He Said, all >kraftwerk, (I have all of their albums, german imports sung in German, as >well as their US releases!) Depeche Mode, Dub Star, Single Gun Theory and a >small host of others. But for the life of me, I have been hard pressed to >find any *NEW* electronic music that I like. Given the above list, could >anyone recomend something else I might enjoy? Well, if you like Dubstar, you'll go loony over St. Etienne, who mine similar territory with far more variety, wit and aplomb (though Dubstar are quite good themselves). In particular, look for their debut, FOXBASE ALPHA (Warner Brothers, 1991), which can only be described as 90s electronic music mixed with a swinging-60s pop sensibility. Features four brilliant singles ("Carnt Sleep," "Kiss and Make Up," "She's the One" and a cover of Neil Young's "Only Love Can Break Your Heart") and a host of excellent sound collage pieces. My favorites are the ones based on an old record about the UK currency changeover and the one based on a segment of David Mamet's "House of Games." Also, if you like early Kraftwerk, the three LPs made by Michael Rother and Klaus Dinger after their brief tenure in that band and released under the name Neu! are all magnificent. Neu! basically kicks Kraftwerk's ass all over the place. (*I* think so, anyway.) They're all called NEU!--the best order to buy them in is white, beige, black. And as I said, anything by Experimental Audio Research (a rotating collective headed by Sonic Boom from Spacemen 3 and Spectrum and usually Kevin Shields from My Bloody Valentine, often including people from the good old LaMonte Young days of early electronic music) is worthwhile. I especially like BEYOND THE PALE. Stewart ****************************FLAMINGO RECORDS**************************** Box 40172 | Albuquerque NM 87196 | "Lemurs are cool. They www.rt66.com/~flamingo | have cute tongues." **********************HAPPY MUSIC FOR NICE PEOPLE*********************** ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #55 ******************************