From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V1 #31 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, April 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 031 Today's Subjects: ----------------- To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again ["Alex Wise" ] Re: The Advantage of Working in a Cube. [] Re: To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again [] Re: The Advantage of Working in a Dome. ["Thom S. Heileson" ] Re: The Advantage of Working in a Cube. ["Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" Subject: To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again As Wire are hugely known for their ease of confounding many a people,what I find really confounding are their use of techniques in music.This is exactly the case I find with the Lewis/Gilbert stuff and This Way To The Shivering Man.An interview with Bruce on the Wire sites mentioning the days of Dome he said he and Graham would cut up tapes and loop them of course and treating the tape loops through noise gates. With the noise gates he would adjust the threshold and gate where only part of the sound signal would go through creating different sounds altogether.Did they also treat sounds through ext-ins of synths and gate and trigger external sounds from synth keys?As this seemed the case with the Gilbert track 'Small Electric Piece' one of the additional tracks off the Japanese CD of 154.It sounded like some guitar loop or delay that was triggered from an anologue keyboard synth,where the pitch was raised and lowered like a keynote and there was an interesting LFO sound with the instrument in the end. By the time of their '80s reformation,Wire or the members of Wire had utilized samplers in the studio for their treatments and prior to that the likes of Bruce were relying on current studio techniques such as rebouncing guitar/instrument onto track after track via different effect systems utilizing lots of delays,noise gating,distortion,etc.But Lewis/Gibert tracks such as Seven Year and Danse still dumbfound me.The long reasonably clean guitar decay on Danse I find rather interesting,and sounds hard to acheive with a few effects pedals.I'm still trying to find out how Bruce creates swinging panning effects for example 'Part 3 of the work for' Do You Me?I Did' off This Way and of course the large layer of orchestral soundalikes on the same track. Apart from the glorious studio treatments,what has Bruce and Colin used for live performances in and out of Wire?Have they ever utilised guitar synthesisers or played guitar through analogue synths like the Korg MS20? - -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 12:31:32 -0500 From: #rciscon Subject: Re: To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again > > >As Wire are hugely known for their ease of confounding many a people,what I >find really confounding aretheir use of techniques in music. <> >Apart from the glorious studio >treatments,what has Bruce and Colin used for live performances in and out >of Wire?Have they ever utilised guitar synthesisers or played guitar >through analogue synths like the Korg MS20? > > >-Alex I can't verify this right now, but I do believe that most of 'Manscape' was done with guitar synthesisers.... Or was it 'The First Letter'? Well, if it was 'The First Letter', I like what they did. If it was 'Manscape'.... well the less said about that album the better.... Ray Ciscon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:22:35 -0700 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again > I can't verify this right now, but I do believe that most of 'Manscape' > was done with guitar synthesisers.... > > Or was it 'The First Letter'? This is interesting; I never thought of guitar synthesizers per se being used on either of these albums... I only knew that around this time Wir/e began sort-of free-forming in the studio, then putting the pieces together in production (this, from reading Everybody Loves A History)... Now that g-synths are mentioned, I can see their being used... but moreso on Manscape than 1stL somehow... > Well, if it was 'The First Letter', I like what they did. > > If it was 'Manscape'.... well the less said about that album the > better.... Too bad; I'm gonna speak about it... :) But only a little. I've always thought of Manscape as a crucial record in that it was here that Wir/e started getting more experimental electronica-wise - not that they (group and members) hadn't before, but it seemed new compositional techniques begans here... As such, the record has a certain awkwardness, to be sure (i.e. growing pains)... But I think that on certain subtle levels there are some real intersting things going on. Anyway, tracks like "Where's The Deputation" and "What Can You See" are, I think, great - hauting in a certain hyper-mechanical flavor... But yes, compared to the brilliance of First Letter, Manscape pales quite a bit... Thom _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson/index.html Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:48:40 -0600 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again At 12:22 PM 4/15/98 -0700, Thom Heileson wrote: >> I can't verify this right now, but I do believe that most of 'Manscape' >> was done with guitar synthesisers.... >> >> Or was it 'The First Letter'? > >This is interesting; I never thought of guitar synthesizers per se being >used on either of these albums... I only knew that around this time >Wir/e began sort-of free-forming in the studio, then putting the pieces >together in production (this, from reading Everybody Loves A History)... As I understand it, all of THE FIRST LETTER was created by Newman, Lewis and Gilbert playing regular guitars that were MIDIed into some kind of digital processor that created basically one big evolving loop that was later manipulated into the separate songs. Stewart *****************************FLAMINGO RECORDS**************************** Stewart Mason | Flamingo Records | Box 40172 | "Do you want me to drive? I have thumbs." Albuquerque NM 87196 | www.rt66.com/~flamingo | ************************HAPPY MUSIC FOR NICE PEOPLE********************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:08:17 -0700 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: The Advantage of Working in a Cube. I just started a new job here (See signature) and though working in a cubicle would really blow. One "perk" is we get to listen to cd's with headphones while we are working, or writing to mailing lists, etc... Chairs Missing is one of my favorite albums, and when I was younger I used to blast it in my 79' pinto while I rode around town. I guess I just never listened to this album in headphones before, what a treat! There are a lot of layers that I just never noticed before. In Second Language Graham is saying some stuff I have yet to decipher in the background. Men 2nd has all these strange percussion instruments in the middle. Anyone else out there notice anything that might be hidden below the surface on this album? It is so much fun re-discovering something you thought you knew everything about already! Chad Wilson - cwilson@thedoctors.com NT Systems Administrator The Doctors' Company (707) 226-0338 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:39:02 -0700 From: Thom Heileson Subject: Re: The Advantage of Working in a Cube. > I just started a new job here (See signature) and though working in a > cubicle would really blow. One "perk" is we get to listen to cd's with > headphones while we are working, or writing to mailing lists, etc... > Chairs Missing is one of my favorite albums, and when I was younger I > used to blast it in my 79' pinto while I rode around town. I guess I > just never listened to this album in headphones before, what a treat! > There are a lot of layers that I just never noticed before. In Second > Language Graham is saying some stuff I have yet to decipher in the > background. Men 2nd has all these strange percussion instruments in the > middle. Anyone else out there notice anything that might be hidden below > the surface on this album? It is so much fun re-discovering something > you thought you knew everything about already! Headphones, imo, are an essential part of _really hearing_ an album, esp. in Wir/e et al's case... I was blown away thie first times I heard many Wir/e tracks in the 'deep listening' arena ('phones). Naked, Whooping, And Such-Like, as a prime example, is a different creature (monster) entirely on 'phones than on externals. Speaking of hard-to-hear words... the other day I was listening to 154, with the 4 extra tracks, and wondering whatbeing spoken in that somewhat chaotic track which contains the piano, electronic noises, and a vacuum cleaner. Anyone know? - -- Thom, who also spent much time in a alte 70s (78) Pinto blaring late 70s postpunk (but it was Joy Div, me being not hip enough for Wire...) - -- _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson/index.html Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:50:44 -0700 From: "Wilson, Chad" Subject: duh... Oooppss, somehow I referred to "French Film Blurred" as "Second Language" in my last post... easy to do when your listening to something while you type! ;-) Chad Wilson - cwilson@thedoctors.com NT Systems Administrator The Doctors' Company (707) 226-0338 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 20:46:08 -0400 From: Subject: Re: The Advantage of Working in a Cube. >Anyone else out there notice anything that might be hidden below >> the surface on this album? It is so much fun re-discovering something >> you thought you knew everything about already! I'm still trying to hear the flute on "Strange" and "Heartbeat"! It's listed on the credits, but I'll be damned if I can actually hear it, even after dozens of listens. I know Mike Thorne mentioned in an interview that he mixed it really low, but unless I'm an idiot, I can't pick it out. Anyone else here? On a side note, I absolutely love the spoken bit by Bruce (I think it's him) at the end of the track "Madmen" on Dome 1, where he says something to the effect of "If anyone touches my fucking stuff, I'll take a fucking ax and I'll fucking kill him! And then I'll piss on him (or it)!" That's always good for a laugh! Marvelling at the idea of Pinto driving... Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 21:03:19 -0400 From: Subject: Re: To Speak and Let My Words Come Round Again >Now that g-synths are mentioned, I can see their being used... but >moreso on Manscape than 1stL somehow... Actually, I believe that g-synths were the primary instrument on First Letter. They'd record riffs, then loop, splice and dice, chop, manipulate, etc. As for Manscape, I'm not sure. I listened to it the other day and felt quite a pleasant reaction, though. The actual ideas and melodies and rhythms are very good as Thom mentioned. >As such, the record has a certain awkwardness, to be sure (i.e. growing >pains) I think the only problem with Manscape (for me) is the very characteristic MIDI quality. Some of the sounds seem a bit dated and flat in retrospect , whereas their earlier work (and the production) has a timeless quality. They obviously corrected this problem with First Letter, which is very fresh and expansive in sound (more 3D where Manscape was a bit 2D) Just my thoughts... Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:49:21 -0800 From: "Thom S. Heileson" Subject: Re: The Advantage of Working in a Dome. > On a side note, I absolutely love the spoken bit by Bruce (I think it's > him) at the end of the track "Madmen" on Dome 1, where he says something > to the effect of "If anyone touches my fucking stuff, I'll take a fucking > ax and I'll fucking kill him! And then I'll piss on him (or it)!" That's > always good for a laugh! "Anybody touch these fucking bags, and I'll cut their fuckin' head off with a fuckin' axe! ...And I'll fucking piss on it!" Are we sure this is Bruce's vox? PS What's he yell at the start of Dome2? (Always thought this was a nice continuity effect.) - -- Domespotting _ _ _ Thom Heileson //)) //^~ heileson@u.washington.edu ((// // http://weber.u.washington.edu/~heileson University of Washington School of Art Center for Advanced Research Technology in the Arts and Humanities [CARTAH] 206.543.4218 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 22:14:07 -0400 From: Subject: Re: The Advantage of Working in a Dome. >"Anybody touch these fucking bags, and I'll cut their fuckin' head off >with a fuckin' axe! ...And I'll fucking piss on it!" Yeah! I didn't feel like getting up to find the exact words at the time! >Are we sure this is Bruce's vox? For some reason I think it sounds like him; it's hard to tell. And I have no idea what he's yelling at the beginning of Red Tent 1! Eric auteur@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:42:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey with 2 f's Jeffrey" Subject: Re: The Advantage of Working in a Cube. On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 auteur@ix.netcom.com wrote: > I'm still trying to hear the flute on "Strange" and "Heartbeat"! It's > listed on the credits, but I'll be damned if I can actually hear it, even > after dozens of listens. I know Mike Thorne mentioned in an interview > that he mixed it really low, but unless I'm an idiot, I can't pick it > out. Anyone else here? I think the flute on "Heartbeat" is actually used as a percussion instrument: just the the keys being tapped, perhaps with the flute player breathing lightly through the instrument, and the instrument's resonance amplifying and extending the taps. You can hear this pretty clearly in the second half (I think) of the song. On another topic: unfortunately, I deleted the longish post about sound-processing on later Wir/e and Gilbert projects - but it occurred to me that, interesting as the detail was, it's potentially an aesthetic dead-end if pursued too exclusively. One of the more accurate criticisms of prog-rock, and of some jazz fusion, is that technique is exalted to the extent that the actual song, or any other more visceral elements like rhythmic propulsiveness, is neglected. That is, the music is more fun to play, and more fun to analyze/jawdrop at ("wow! that was a D mixolydian scale in 64th-note quintuplets over an e-flat thirteenth flat-nine!") than it is to listen to. Similarly, unless the music *sounds* good, it really doesn't matter whether it's created by multiple samplings and FXing of guitars, synths, or small tortured rodents (even though I think the exploration of texture is a lot more interesting than the exploration of technique or musical "complexity"). On that basis, I like MANSCAPE better than THE FIRST LETTER - simply because more of the former's songs (and sounds, to be fair) stick in my head & ask to be listened to again, in comparison w/the latter. (And I used the awkward "former"/"latter" thing only because I think it's amusing to put "latter" next to "letter" and paradoxically also next to "first." You don't care.) - --Jeff J e f f r e y N o r m a n Department of English http://www.uwm.edu/~jenor/ University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee ::Watson! Something's afoot...and it's on the end of my leg. :: ::::::::::::::::::::Sherlock Holmes, in some Firesign Theatre skit, maybe:: ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V1 #31 ******************************