From: owner-headline-girl-digest@smoe.org (headline-girl-digest) To: headline-girl-digest@smoe.org Subject: headline-girl-digest V4 #303 Reply-To: headline-girl@smoe.org Sender: owner-headline-girl-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-headline-girl-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk headline-girl-digest Saturday, December 22 2001 Volume 04 : Number 303 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. [Greg Teltschik ] Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. [Greg Teltschik Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. At 10:51 12/20/2001 -0500, TrishTLC@aol.com wrote: >Hey everyone, > >Sorry to bother you with this post but I need help. I have a dilemma and my >band gave me an ultimatum, basically saying that we have to be a "band" as >opposed to it being me with them backing me, or else they'll split. Because >they don't want to waste their time doing this only for me to get discovered >and ditch them. I guess the question is really, how do you see yourself? It's not egocentric to be a solo artist and have a band. I can think of several artists that most certainly are this way: Sarah McLachlan, Tara MacLean, Madonna, Paul McCartney (sometimes with Wings), Emm Gryner, Jonatha Brooke, ....it goes on and on. It sounds like what they really want is some recognition for their efforts. Perhaps it should be Tricia Conception and (insert band name here). Or Tricia Conception with (insert band name). Do you see your career as completely intertwined with these guys, barring the obvious sense of friendship and obligation? If so, then maybe you ought to be alla No Doubt, Garbage, or the Smashing Pumpkins...or the Beatles. If not, then don't make it so. >You see, at first, they were in another band together, and I was just on the >side, something for fun, but now their band is no more and they want to take >me more seriously, *only if we're a band*. They say it's ego-centric for me >to be a solo artist and have a band. If that's what you want, then be a solo artist with a band. Or get other musicians who are willing to play with you. it sounds like they want to be a "band" in the true sense of the word, not individual musicians known for their individual talents. People like the notable Kevin Fox come to mind as guys who fit this mold. >I understand where they're coming from because we have written a few songs >together, like a band does, in the past couple months, and I give them credit >for that. But, they want credit for songs that they just write their own >parts to. For instance, if I came to practice with a whole song written on >guitar or piano, lyrics and all, and they just put drums and bass to it, they >want songwriting credit! Since it's considered "music" , they feel their >names should be on it too. If I recall correctly from the whole Sarah McLachlan trial, they would be entitled to some royalties if they added to the song at all and, of course, if you actually used it on a record for commercial profit. In this case, though, it remains as to whether they get actual co-writing credit. If you pretty much had the melody and the lyrics ready, then I don't think they get co-writing credit. They can still get some royalties, though. >But, they *have* been helping me get shows and exposure, so I don't know if I >should do this with them and change the name so it's not Tricia Concepcion >anymore, it would be a "band" name. But then I think they'd have to deal >with the issues of having a girl as the frontman of the band. Look at No >Doubt! Nobody knows anybody elses name in that band except Gwen Stefani! See above. >I guess I just like to write and sing because I like to, and if I get >discovered, then cool, but they want to take it super seriously and make a >living off of this, and I don't know if I'm ready to do that yet. Sounds like you want different things from the music. You should both respect the other's decisions. Maybe TC with (insert band name here) is the best way to go about it. >The only way I can have this band and play shows with them is if I ditch my >name and use a band name. And that is the decision I have to make. > >What do you think? You can email me privately if you don't want to flood the >posts. > >TLC Greg Teltschik gteltschik@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:04:32 +0000 From: "Lindi ." Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. If you wrote the song Tricia... they get no .. absolutely NO.. royalties! If it is your song and your lyrics and your melody then they don't deserve any credit. Now hurry up and copyright those suckers so they cant come along 3 years down the road and claim to have written your songs. peace Lindi p.s: I can find the actual law for it if you want me to post it let me know. www.lindi.org >From: Greg Teltschik >To: TrishTLC@aol.com, headline-girl@smoe.org >Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 05:31:43 +0000 > >At 10:51 12/20/2001 -0500, TrishTLC@aol.com wrote: >>Hey everyone, >> >>Sorry to bother you with this post but I need help. I have a >>dilemma and my >>band gave me an ultimatum, basically saying that we have to be a >>"band" as >>opposed to it being me with them backing me, or else they'll split. >> Because >>they don't want to waste their time doing this only for me to get >>discovered >>and ditch them. > >I guess the question is really, how do you see yourself? It's not >egocentric to be a solo artist and have a band. I can think of >several >artists that most certainly are this way: Sarah McLachlan, Tara >MacLean, >Madonna, Paul McCartney (sometimes with Wings), Emm Gryner, Jonatha >Brooke, >....it goes on and on. It sounds like what they really want is some >recognition for their efforts. Perhaps it should be Tricia >Conception and >(insert band name here). Or Tricia Conception with (insert band >name). Do >you see your career as completely intertwined with these guys, >barring the >obvious sense of friendship and obligation? If so, then maybe you >ought to >be alla No Doubt, Garbage, or the Smashing Pumpkins...or the >Beatles. If >not, then don't make it so. > >>You see, at first, they were in another band together, and I was >>just on the >>side, something for fun, but now their band is no more and they >>want to take >>me more seriously, *only if we're a band*. They say it's >>ego-centric for me >>to be a solo artist and have a band. >If that's what you want, then be a solo artist with a band. Or get >other >musicians who are willing to play with you. it sounds like they >want to be >a "band" in the true sense of the word, not individual musicians >known for >their individual talents. People like the notable Kevin Fox come to >mind >as guys who fit this mold. > >>I understand where they're coming from because we have written a >>few songs >>together, like a band does, in the past couple months, and I give >>them credit >>for that. But, they want credit for songs that they just write >>their own >>parts to. For instance, if I came to practice with a whole song >>written on >>guitar or piano, lyrics and all, and they just put drums and bass >>to it, they >>want songwriting credit! Since it's considered "music" , they feel >>their >>names should be on it too. > >If I recall correctly from the whole Sarah McLachlan trial, they >would be >entitled to some royalties if they added to the song at all and, of >course, >if you actually used it on a record for commercial profit. In this >case, >though, it remains as to whether they get actual co-writing credit. >If you >pretty much had the melody and the lyrics ready, then I don't think >they >get co-writing credit. They can still get some royalties, though. > > >>But, they *have* been helping me get shows and exposure, so I don't >>know if I >>should do this with them and change the name so it's not Tricia >>Concepcion >>anymore, it would be a "band" name. But then I think they'd have >>to deal >>with the issues of having a girl as the frontman of the band. Look >>at No >>Doubt! Nobody knows anybody elses name in that band except Gwen >>Stefani! > >See above. > >>I guess I just like to write and sing because I like to, and if I >>get >>discovered, then cool, but they want to take it super seriously and >>make a >>living off of this, and I don't know if I'm ready to do that yet. > >Sounds like you want different things from the music. You should >both >respect the other's decisions. Maybe TC with (insert band name >here) is >the best way to go about it. > >>The only way I can have this band and play shows with them is if I >>ditch my >>name and use a band name. And that is the decision I have to make. >> >>What do you think? You can email me privately if you don't want to >>flood the >>posts. >> >>TLC > >Greg Teltschik >gteltschik@mindspring.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:50:16 +0000 From: Greg Teltschik Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. At 06:04 12/21/2001 +0000, Lindi . wrote: >If you wrote the song Tricia... they get no .. absolutely NO.. royalties! >If it is your song and your lyrics and your melody then they don't >deserve any credit. Now hurry up and copyright those suckers so they cant >come along 3 years down the road and claim to have written your songs. As I see it, this is actually one of the greyest areas of the music industry. I believe the laws do differ from country to country on occassion. At Getsigned.com, I found the following (http://www.getsigned.com/faspr011.html): "Adding a "part" is not necessarily considered writing a portion of the song, unless the part is so important to the song itself where it becomes essentially the song - i.e. a bass line that is the music for a verse or a guitar part that substitutes for a more standard chord structure." According to the Canadian agreement surrounding Sarah McLachlan, the court set out three criteria which need to be met. One of these includes intent to collaborate. Based on some of my quick research, there is still a lot of controversy about this. Also note that this judgement does not necessarily apply within the United States since it was tried in Canada. In an article entitled "A Matter of Credit" (http://www.brettsawmy.co.uk/articles/credit.htm), the author suggests that drummers should fight for appropriate credit. I believe this article was written for Rhythm magazine. For the most part, whenever artists collaborate on the creation of songs, they should reach some sort of agreement in writing about how ownership will be doled out to avoid potential legal issues in the future. It's not suggested that artists should always approach these sessions with a contract in hand, but that it should be managed for contract musicians and in cases where it obviously makes sense (probably not too much of an issue for you right now, Trish). Countering the Sarah McLachlan case is a similar case brought by former members of The Smiths against Morrissey claiming a greater share of the songwriting credit. They won, as their contributions were seen to be significant. Morrissey appealed the decision, but I think he lost (didn't look too hard for this one). From my perspective, you probably have the most significant claim to the songs, but you need to decide if there are any where the other members of the band may have a significant contribution. Of course, you can always claim full ownership and probably get out of it on top, though if you become as big as Madonna you may run into problems. Greg > > >peace > >Lindi > >p.s: I can find the actual law for it if you want me to post it let me >know. > >www.lindi.org >From: Greg Teltschik >To: TrishTLC@aol.com, >headline-girl@smoe.org >Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. >Date: >Fri, 21 Dec 2001 05:31:43 +0000 > >At 10:51 12/20/2001 -0500, >TrishTLC@aol.com wrote: >>Hey everyone, >> >>Sorry to bother you with >this post but I need help. I have a >>dilemma and my >>band gave me an >ultimatum, basically saying that we have to be a >>"band" as >>opposed to >it being me with them backing me, or else they'll split. >> Because > >>they don't want to waste their time doing this only for me to get > >>discovered >>and ditch them. > >I guess the question is really, how do >you see yourself? It's not >egocentric to be a solo artist and have a >band. I can think of >several >artists that most certainly are this way: >Sarah McLachlan, Tara >MacLean, >Madonna, Paul McCartney (sometimes with >Wings), Emm Gryner, Jonatha >Brooke, >....it goes on and on. It sounds >like what they really want is some >recognition for their efforts. >Perhaps it should be Tricia >Conception and >(insert band name here). Or >Tricia Conception with (insert band >name). Do >you see your career as >completely intertwined with these guys, >barring the >obvious sense of >friendship and obligation? If so, then maybe you >ought to >be alla No >Doubt, Garbage, or the Smashing Pumpkins...or the >Beatles. If >not, then >don't make it so. > >>You see, at first, they were in another band >together, and I was >>just on the >>side, something for fun, but now >their band is no more and they >>want to take >>me more seriously, *only >if we're a band*. They say it's >>ego-centric for me >>to be a solo >artist and have a band. >If that's what you want, then be a solo artist >with a band. Or get >other >musicians who are willing to play with you. >it sounds like they >want to be >a "band" in the true sense of the word, >not individual musicians >known for >their individual talents. People >like the notable Kevin Fox come to >mind >as guys who fit this mold. > > >>I understand where they're coming from because we have written a >>few >songs >>together, like a band does, in the past couple months, and I give > >>them credit >>for that. But, they want credit for songs that they just >write >>their own >>parts to. For instance, if I came to practice with a >whole song >>written on >>guitar or piano, lyrics and all, and they just >put drums and bass >>to it, they >>want songwriting credit! Since it's >considered "music" , they feel >>their >>names should be on it too. > >If >I recall correctly from the whole Sarah McLachlan trial, they >would be > >entitled to some royalties if they added to the song at all and, of > >course, >if you actually used it on a record for commercial profit. In >this >case, >though, it remains as to whether they get actual co-writing >credit. >If you >pretty much had the melody and the lyrics ready, then I >don't think >they >get co-writing credit. They can still get some >royalties, though. > > >>But, they *have* been helping me get shows and >exposure, so I don't >>know if I >>should do this with them and change >the name so it's not Tricia >>Concepcion >>anymore, it would be a "band" >name. But then I think they'd have >>to deal >>with the issues of having >a girl as the frontman of the band. Look >>at No >>Doubt! Nobody knows >anybody elses name in that band except Gwen >>Stefani! > >See above. > > >>I guess I just like to write and sing because I like to, and if I >>get > >>discovered, then cool, but they want to take it super seriously and > >>make a >>living off of this, and I don't know if I'm ready to do that >yet. > >Sounds like you want different things from the music. You should > >both >respect the other's decisions. Maybe TC with (insert band name > >here) is >the best way to go about it. > >>The only way I can have this >band and play shows with them is if I >>ditch my >>name and use a band >name. And that is the decision I have to make. >> >>What do you think? >You can email me privately if you don't want to >>flood the >>posts. >> > >>TLC > >Greg Teltschik >gteltschik@mindspring.com > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: Click Here Greg Teltschik gteltschik@mindspring.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:39:11 EST From: Songbird22@aol.com Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. Lindi writes: > If you wrote the song Tricia... they get no .. absolutely NO.. royalties! > If it is your song and your lyrics and your melody then they don't > deserve any credit. Now hurry up and copyright those suckers so they cant > come along 3 years down the road and claim to have written your songs. Copyright is soooo necessary and important--because your band members aren't the only ones who could potentially steal your songs. I'd highly encourage any artist here to get their material copyrighted asap. It's very important, and I didn't realize it until I met with someone recently who is in the industry and stressed it over and over again (with specific examples that scared me into Fed Ex-ing my songs to the copyright office the next day). Here's what you do: go to www.loc.gov and to the Copyright office. Print out form PA and make a compilation of every song you've ever written--a CDR or cassette and then lyric sheets. Fill out the form (takes 2 minutes) and send it with your $30 to the copyright office. And when you put another album get form SR and send that in separately. It is the only way to protect yourself, as they poor man's copyright (getting something postmarked and sending it to yourself) does not hold up in court and lawyers can find sneaky ways around that. :) Jess www.jessicaweiser.com | www.aftersilence.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:14:09 EST From: TrishTLC@aol.com Subject: Re: NEC: Problems, need opinions. Thanks everyone for all their advice and opinions. I really appreciate everything. I didn't think I would get much response but since you guys are just as much into the music business as myself, I shouldn't have doubted anything. I've heard opinions from "fans and music lovers" to actual singer/songwriters trying to get by in this business just like me. And everyone's advice is pretty much the same in terms of the "fairness" of it all and it has helped in making my decision. It's just that my decision will probably set me back a long ways because I've done so much with my band in the past year or more. I think I'm going to tell them that I want to be a solo artist, but I don't know how to tell them. I think that our views with all of this are different and that's not cool. Plus, I didn't particularly like how they kinda ganged up on me, which they tend to do a lot. They exclude me from a lot of things, and talk more with each other than with me. I guess it's because they are more friends with each other. Plus, I just got word from my/the/our drummer that he may have found an indie label for us, AND his other band (with my/the/our bassist) Segway. So, how are you going to devote 100% of your efforts if you have TWO different bands? If they/we get it, I think I'm just going to tell them to focus on their original band. I'll have to sacrifice getting on an indie label but I can manage. There are others out there, i'm sure. If you have any other advice, please please please please let me know. thank you and happy holidays, Tricia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:42:59 -0800 From: "Rob Tittel" Subject: RE: Re: Demo listening party/ was NEC: Testing Trish wrote: <> Yeah, the songs were VERY cool. Lots of layers to the songs, a lot of harmonizing with Emm's voice, etc. Lots of different sounds going on under the actual music, but it still had the whole DYI ethic going for it. Sounded very full but didn't come across as "over-produced". << oh and thanks for the compliments Rob! It was definitely cool to see you guys again and that's why i played new songs, for you guys to hear (you, steph, and laura, who i haven't seen in forever!). >> It totally rocked seeing you again too TLC! I loved your new songs too. Don't ever quit. You have a special gift and you write beautiful songs. And about your other post, stay solo, kid. You deserve all the credit in the world for your music so don't ever let anyone try to steal your thunder. Stay true to yourself... you will find other musicians out there that truly believe in you and your music and ARE willing to be your "back-up" band and not want to steal the spotlight all for themselves. Peace y'all, Rob >--- Original Message --- >From: TrishTLC@aol.com >To: headline-girl@smoe.org >Date: 12/20/01 10:39:25 AM > >In a message dated 12/20/2001 3:10:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, >rtittel@neo.rr.com writes: > > >> Secondly, let me also say that I think this Wally Gagel is going >> to do some incredible things with her sound. I really like the >> last three songs that she played of the evening, "Free", "Symphonic", >> and "Beautiful Things" > >I LOVED THAT STUFF TOO!!! This wally Gagel is awesome! > >oh and thanks for the compliments Rob! It was definitely cool to see you >guys again and that's why i played new songs, for you guys to hear (you, >steph, and laura, who i haven't seen in forever!). > >xo >tlc ------------------------------ End of headline-girl-digest V4 #303 ***********************************