From: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org (harbinger-digest) To: harbinger-digest@smoe.org Subject: harbinger-digest V5 #134 Reply-To: harbinger@smoe.org Sender: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk harbinger-digest Tuesday, August 22 2000 Volume 05 : Number 134 HARBINGER DIGEST To post, mail harbinger@smoe.org To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger-digest To get list info file, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info harbinger-digest Today's Subjects: ---------------- Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? ["Kenneth Carpenter" ] Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? ["Michael Kleinert" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 17:51:52 EDT From: "Kenneth Carpenter" Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? Boy, I leave for the weekend and look what I come back to... Diane said: >Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin' OK, that part actually made me chuckle. Dissin'. (hee hee) Diane thinks I was "dissin'" Paula. Hey, yo... hab you and yo girl, Paula, bin hangin' wit yo posse in da 'hood 'n gettin' jiggy wit yo funky fresh ebonics, mu'fucka? ;^) You go girl! Get all urban on my ass!! :^D >i think dissin' paula cole for not making the album *you* like is just >plain dumb. Diane, Diane... angry, heretofore unheard-of Diane.... I sincerely admire your dogged defense of Paula, but you really are way off the mark. Generally I wouldn't defend my comments to anyone on the list because I'm going to say whatever I'm choose to say, but you seemed sincerely outraged and offended so I thought I should set the record straight and try to make you feel better about the whole thing. After all... we all make mistakes sometimes. Now why would I disrespect Paula? Particularly when I'm a big fan and there's no need to disrespect her? I only commented on an album that I personally perceive as a flop. Something tells me you might be new to the list (and I have a sneaking suspicion you probably aren't old enough to buy beer, are you?), but if you had been around for the past year, you'd know that I have freely admitted my conflicted (albeit largely disenchanted) feelings about the lyrical content of Amen. for months now. I'm a music listener whose enjoyment of this style of music hinges on great lyrics. Sadly, I find the lyrics to nearly every song on Amen ("Pearl" being the only real exception) to be riddled with trite pseudo-intellectual sentimentality and ghetto posturing that rings embarrassingly hollow coming from Paula. I have other issues with the album, but that is the primary reason why I don't like Amen. But that doesn't mean that I wish that she had made a different album. No, heavens no. I'm glad she did what she did because she says that ultimately she's happy with the final product. I can respect and understand that. I applaud her for taking the risk of producing an album that she knew might be poorly received by a large audience, but I have to admit that I can't connect to the songs. I don't blame Paula for that! She's writing for herself, not for me. But that doesn't mean I have to like what she wrote for herself. >why should she blame herself for her album not selling? Well, she certainly never had any problem blaming everyone and everything else! Are you saying that she shouldn't shoulder some of the responsibility considering she is the driving force behind her own career? Diane, who do you suppose makes all the final decisions about who is working for her and what they are doing during that time? It's Paula. The buck stops there. I'm sure that the mismanagement she has claimed, along with that old bugaboo now known as "Lilith backlash" and perhaps even solar flares did have had varying degrees of negative impact on how the album has done in sales and on the charts, but it all rests at Paula's doorstep when the smoke clears. If the music was truly THAT good, word of mouth alone would have done wonders to sell Amen (look at how the sales of Harbinger increased after This Fire went wild) and I'm sure that more than 105,000 people would have found their way to Sam Goody to look for Paula Cole's new album. >mainstream music is f*cked and so stuff like Paula's will never be huge >like, say, Madonna and that is a GOOD thing. I don't know what to say to that. Yeah, most MTV music sucks. That's pretty much a given at this point. But Madonna and Paula are apples and oranges. I don't see the correlation here, so I'll pass. Give me "Boy Bands" for $300 please, Alex. >If you don't like her music, why dont you go make your own? no really, do >it and stop whinging and see how hard it is. God, that seems like an awful lot of work just to solve the problem of not liking Paula's latest album. Nah... you know what, I think I'm just going to wait for her next album to come out instead. I mean, in the meantime, I'll just listen to other musicians, of course. But I have to tell you, I just don't have the time to write, record, promote, produce and tour for an album right now. So thanks for your excellent suggestion, but hell, I haven't even done laundry yet this week. >Lastly, a bit of advice- please stop the rambling off-track, this *is* a >fanclub list after all and if you have something else to talk about, why >dont you email the person directly. Wow...thanks, Diane. You're a real mensch. And now here's some advice for you. Seeing as you're new around here, there's something you should bear in mind. Many of us have been here for some time now (several years in my own case) and we've got our own way of doing things. Let me fill you in. First off, we don't flame each other here. I don't know... maybe you're a Fumbler who just fell off that Sarah McLachlan list. I know flaming is a way of life there. But we're a more mature crowd at Harbinger. We might get in some good jabs at one another every now and then (as I just did to you in this post) and we certainly speak our minds in a thoughtful manner, but we don't lash out at each other like hormonal girls at summer camp. In the end, you'll just embarrass yourself. Hm...I guess maybe you don't really need this advice now, though. I suppose sometimes it's best to learn our lessons firsthand. Kenn ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Btw, if you are an AOL subscriber the above instruction will work for your EVERY time. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:10:24 EDT From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: (harbinger) hey if you need the official this fire lyrics i can help i know the lyrics arent at any sites and the cd booklet so email me if you want any songs-i have the music book nick - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Btw, if you are an AOL subscriber the above instruction will work for your EVERY time. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:21:19 -0400 From: "Tim Clausz" Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? I have one word to say after reading Kenn's recent posts (and let me say it before someone else beats me to it): Amen. I almost never post to this list, though I have also been on it for several years. I enjoy reading the comments of most people, as it gives me an idea of what others may be thinking about Paula and similar music/artists. Kenn certainly does not need anyone to come to his defense (as he is quite capable and clearly defends his points), but I just thought I'd add a few comments: Kenn always speaks his mind (positive or negative) about Paula and her music. However, even when he criticizes Paula, it is quite apparent that he is a fan of her and truly appreciates her incredible talent. Just because he is expressing disappointment with something Paula has done (or written or said, etc.) does not mean that he is not still a fan. I don't think that a fan should blindly accept everything an artist they admire does as a masterpiece. I am equally as disappointed by Amen. as Kenn and most other "old-timers" on this list. And I completely agree with Kenn when he states that most of the songs on Amen. contain lyrics with "trite pseudo-intellectual sentimentality and ghetto posturing that rings embarrassingly hollow coming from Paula" [though I don't know if I would have said it quite as eloquently ;-)]. At times it is almost unfathomable to think that the songs on Amen. were written by the same person who wrote the songs on Harbinger. But what bothers me more is the way that she seems to want to blame everyone but herself for the album's horrible sales. I have read several interviews where she seems completely amazed that the album did not do well commercially. While I am disappointed by the album's lack of commercial success and would love to see it sell more, I would not recommend that anyone buy Amen., mainly because I do not like it. And the only reason I do not like it is because of Paula and only Paula -- not lack of promotion, not lack of airplay, not lack of exposure. The writing on the album just does not seem to be up to Paula's usual standards, especially compared to Harbinger, most of This Fire, and just about all of her B-sides. Anyway, I am kind of all over the place in this post, and most of this has been said many times before. I am not even sure what my point was, other than to say that this list is for any fan who wants to express their feelings about Paula. Kenn is just more honest than most, and truly says what he feels. Many of us agree with what he says about Amen., which I think is a big reason why it has only sold 105,000 copies. Thanks for listening, Tim - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kenneth Carpenter" To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 5:51 PM Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? Boy, I leave for the weekend and look what I come back to... Diane said: - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Btw, if you are an AOL subscriber the above instruction will work for your EVERY time. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 20:19:26 -0400 From: "Michael Kleinert" Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? It's funny how this has triggers a bunch of postings from people that generally don't post. I too am one who only posts on rare occassion, though I've been signed to the list for years (btw, I was previously signed as LBEACHMIKE and just realized that I would not otherwise be recognized at my newer e-mail address :-> ) In any event, I believe that the commercial success of the last album may very well be some of what contributes to the disappointment of the current album. It seems to me that what often happens in the great big music industry is that when an artist finally reaches commercial success, their writing style seems to diverge substantially on their next album. Seems that the same thing happened with Sarah, since not many fans were too thrilled with her follow-up to Fumbling. I'm sure a lot of you are many of those Sarah fans that felt that way too. I don't really prefer to go on with examples, but I've noticed that it often seems to be the case. That's not intended to excuse anybody from being responsible for a less successful effort, however, it definitely seems to be the pattern. I wonder if the artist perhaps now consciously tries so hard to match the success of their future album, that they alter their natural writing style. And often, if you alter the way you'd otherwise go about things, you get a much different result since you had previously just gone with what you felt -- ie. the true talent within. I actually recall that Don Henley had often pointed toward the Eagles undoing happening after they felt that they could never match the great success of their Hotel California album. I think that when the standard is raised for what's expected of you, there is a great deal more pressure, and things become less natural. Just an opinion or perspective to consider. Mike (aka LBeachMike) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Clausz" To: Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 7:21 PM Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? > > > I have one word to say after reading Kenn's recent posts (and let me say it > before someone else beats me to it): Amen. I almost never post to this > list, though I have also been on it for several years. I enjoy reading the > comments of most people, as it gives me an idea of what others may be > thinking about Paula and similar music/artists. Kenn certainly does not > need anyone to come to his defense (as he is quite capable and clearly > defends his points), but I just thought I'd add a few comments: Kenn always > speaks his mind (positive or negative) about Paula and her music. However, > even when he criticizes Paula, it is quite apparent that he is a fan of her > and truly appreciates her incredible talent. Just because he is expressing > disappointment with something Paula has done (or written or said, etc.) does > not mean that he is not still a fan. I don't think that a fan should > blindly accept everything an artist they admire does as a masterpiece. > > I am equally as disappointed by Amen. as Kenn and most other "old-timers" on > this list. And I completely agree with Kenn when he states that most of the > songs on Amen. contain lyrics with "trite pseudo-intellectual sentimentality > and ghetto posturing that rings embarrassingly hollow coming from Paula" > [though I don't know if I would have said it quite as eloquently ;-)]. At > times it is almost unfathomable to think that the songs on Amen. were > written by the same person who wrote the songs on Harbinger. But what > bothers me more is the way that she seems to want to blame everyone but > herself for the album's horrible sales. I have read several interviews > where she seems completely amazed that the album did not do well > commercially. While I am disappointed by the album's lack of commercial > success and would love to see it sell more, I would not recommend that > anyone buy Amen., mainly because I do not like it. And the only reason I do > not like it is because of Paula and only Paula -- not lack of promotion, not > lack of airplay, not lack of exposure. The writing on the album just does > not seem to be up to Paula's usual standards, especially compared to > Harbinger, most of This Fire, and just about all of her B-sides. > > Anyway, I am kind of all over the place in this post, and most of this has > been said many times before. I am not even sure what my point was, other > than to say that this list is for any fan who wants to express their > feelings about Paula. Kenn is just more honest than most, and truly says > what he feels. Many of us agree with what he says about Amen., which I > think is a big reason why it has only sold 105,000 copies. > > Thanks for listening, > Tim > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kenneth Carpenter" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 5:51 PM > Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? > > > Boy, I leave for the weekend and look what I come back to... > > Diane said: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe harbinger > > Btw, if you are an AOL subscriber the above instruction will > work for your EVERY time. > > Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: > http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html > > - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Btw, if you are an AOL subscriber the above instruction will work for your EVERY time. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:45:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Kelly Murphy Subject: Re: (harbinger) stop the dissin'??? <> Boy, oh, boy...I just 'bout fell off my chair when I got to this line. Thank you, Kenn, for your comic relief. I can relate (as I look over to my overflowing laundry.....) Later, Kelly ===== Feathermerchants: http://www.feathermerchants.com Value Pac: http://home.earthlink.net/~nxmx/valuepac/ five o'clock people: http://www.fiveoclockpeople.com Aaron Sprinkle: http://aaronsprinkle.com The Frantics: http://ourworld.cs.com/thefrantics1/ Michelle Tumes: http://www.michelletumes.com/ Earthsuit: http://www.earthsuit3d.com Roaring Lambs: http://www.roaringlambs.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Btw, if you are an AOL subscriber the above instruction will work for your EVERY time. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html ------------------------------ End of harbinger-digest V5 #134 *******************************