From: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org (harbinger-digest) To: harbinger-digest@smoe.org Subject: harbinger-digest V4 #49 Reply-To: harbinger@smoe.org Sender: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk harbinger-digest Saturday, April 24 1999 Volume 04 : Number 049 HARBINGER DIGEST To post, mail harbinger@smoe.org To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger-digest To get list info file, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info harbinger-digest Today's Subjects: ---------------- Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder [Kenneth R Carpenter Subject: Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder My apologies if you all end up getting duplicates of this email, but I think it might be too long to get through all in one shot. So I'm splitting it in half and resending it. So, without further ado... here's part one --- I agree with the ideas behind Zia's message and just wanted to make a few comments of my own on how music continues to be pulled into the media-spawned melee surrounding horrible acts of violence (especially among young people) and how this is just another means people have contrived of avoiding the real issue -- the lack of personal accountability. I was speaking with a friend about the Colorado shooting yesterday and she, too, spoke of the references being made to KMFDM and Marilyn Manson following the attack at Columbine High. Like Zia, she, too, fears what could happen to the music we enjoy if this kind of scapegoating is allowed to continue. Personally, I'm not terribly concerned at this point. The First Amendment is still tickin' after over two hundred years of lickins, so I'm not ready to chain myself to the front door of Tower Records just yet. So far it's just another potential witchhunt in the music industry. That's really what this kind of finger-pointing is after all. It's a witchhunt that people in shock and people in grief and (in many instances) people of limited intelligence join in on every time people get murdered and their killer(s) make a public or private reference to a music group at any time before, after or during the downward spiral. Hell, I just read on Yahoo! News that the schools in the Denver area have all implemented a "no trenchcoats" policy. They're wasting time discussing outerwear instead of getting to the real root of the problem. Songs don't force people to commit crime (or fall in love or do anything else, for that matter). On the contrary, the direction of the music-listening equation goes in the exact opposite direction. To some people, though, it just seems easier at times like this to try to find something or someone to blame. Music is an easy target that has a hard time fighting back because it has, at once, so many voices and no voice at all. Art of all kinds has always suffered from that disadvantage. This is how I see the equation.... We all know very well that songs can evoke a lot of thoughts and emotions in us, but neither the songwriter nor his music is responsible for putting them there. Those thoughts and emotions existed in us before we ever listened to the song. I believe that we actively, willingly, consciously seek songs that speak to the fragmented thoughts and emotions that we have felt thrumming away inside of us long before the song reached our ears and, in turn, our brains. Isn't that the reason why some of those songs really hit home and become so important to us? Isn't that why many musicians become god(dess)-like in the eyes of their fans? The songwriter took that free-form energy of emotion and put it into words for us. They were able to get a firm hold on those thoughts and emotions. Then they went a step further by synthesizing those thoughts and emotions from the source of their mind into another medium. After that, they took the last step they could as an artist by sharing those fully-formed synthesized thoughts and emotions with the world. Does that make them or their song responsible for what gets churned up and clarified in our mushy little brains? No. The responsibility of the artist ends when they give that art away. What the listener does with the gelled thoughts and emotions interpreted by the musician is the sole responsibility of the listener. As I said, I believe that those same thoughts and emotions existed in the listener before they ever heard the song. If the listener chooses to view the songwriter as someone who sympathizes with his or her own thoughts and emotions, that is entirely on his or her shoulders. Maybe the artist would sympathize, maybe not. Doesn't really matter. No matter what their own personal feelings are on any given subject about which they might create music, literature, etc., artists should not be charged with culpability for putting their art on the market. Those who consume the art must recognize that they are solely responsible for their own behavior, even if the art they have consumed has stirred up or gelled ideas that previously had simmered inside them in a general, incohesive way. >>> to be continued... - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:52:40 -0400 From: Kenneth R Carpenter Subject: Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder >>>> so, as I was saying.... part deux -- Until the Columbine High incident, I didn't know anything at all about KFMDM except having heard the name of the band mentioned on MTV and in music magazines. Truthfully, I still don't know anything about them firsthand. As such, I don't want to base my opinion of this band on what I heard from reporters on CNN who were covering a school shooting. Too much chance of situational bias for my taste. However, even if the band has written songs that were in any way sympathetic to the ideologies of Adolf Hitler (which I do not support in any way), I still don't see why they should be held accountable for any part in this most recent tragedy. Those boys were receiving a lot of other external stimuli aside from KFMDM's music. From everything I have heard on the news, it sounds to me like their murderous rampage was spawned primarily from the fact that they felt like they were being persecuted by their classmates. I think it would be more productive to address the possibility that that insidious persecution (whether real or imagined) is the cancer that drove the boys in the direction of listening to hate-filled music (if, indeed, that is what KFMDM made before breaking up) and ultimately to the point of killing those who they perceived as their oppressors. Instead, for many varied reasons, what happens is that a lot of people want or need to believe that music has some kind of arcane mystical quality that turns people into mindless zombies who will act out whatever the song tells them to do - overtly or subliminally. If only music actually had the ability to spawn that kind of powerful reaction. Maybe then we could get people to treat in other in a civil, courteous, respectful manner and actually do something good for themselves and the world. We could just start writing songs that cast the same kind of magic spell that, in its destructive form, inspires kids too kill their classmates only this time we'll use it for good and get people to stop hurting themselves and everyone around them. Silly, right? How could any reasonable person see the songwriter and his or her song be as being capable of and thereby accountable for that kind of mind control? It's probably because most people are lazy and self-serving. They don't know what they really want and so they decide they want it all and they want it six ways to Sunday at any given moment. They want to be able to do anything they want, but they don't want to be held personally accountable for the fallout of their actions. They want someone to monitor them so that they don't have to pay attention to what they're doing or thinking or saying and how any of those actions are influencing the people around them. People want to be able to pass the buck on to someone who can commonly be agreed upon as a suitable whipping boy. As I said, these folks are lazy and the idea of change (especially self-evolution or redefinining themselves) is just too damn much work and they don't feel like they have what it takes to effect that kind of change anyway. Most of them consider themselves cogs in the big crankshaft of life and they know that they are surrounded by a bunch of other slow-moving cogs who are not going to support them in their desire to change. I believe it all comes down to accountability. That's the only way anything is ever going to get better. We need to hold ourselves individually accountable for what happens in our lives and must be willing to shoulder the responsibility of nurturing of ourselves into continuing self-evolution. Once we've achieved that within ourselves, then our responsibility is to inspire that same evolution in those around us who might not have the tools with which to affect it on their own. Maybe then we can put a halt to our collective backslide and start treating each other with respect, courtesy and varying degrees of love again. That's not to say that it was perfect forty or fifty years ago; we had our problems then, too. I don't think we've ever really liked each other much and atrocities happened back in the day just as they do now, but not on the small-scale interpersonal level as they are occurring now. Our society is going to implode if we aren't careful. We look at the Kosovites and feel pity for them but most of us don't ever let ourselves believe how easily something like that could happen here. Something's gotta give and with each passing day I worry more and more that, for once and for all, it's going to be the meager remains of our humanity. Sorry to have been so long-winded and apologize if I got redundant back there. I hope this helps someone out there put into words what they've been feeling and unable to express. If it does, just remember that now *you* are responsible for where you go from there. Peace. Kenn - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:01:09 EDT From: Icicles014@aol.com Subject: Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder In a message dated 99-04-23 12:49:54 EDT, you write: << Hell, I just read on Yahoo! News that the schools in the Denver area have all implemented a "no trenchcoats" policy. They're wasting time discussing outerwear instead of getting to the real root of the problem. >> Hi, I don't post much, but I live in Colorado, go to Colorado schooling, I've been to Columbine a few times, and this statement is entirely incorrect. Right now the school district really doesn't care about what you wear, they are more worried about what they will do with the students of Columbine High, since the school will not be opening again this year, or ever. I realize this isn't your fault for reading this and believing this, I just wanted to say that this is not true, and almost always, the media can't be believed. Jase - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:16:59 -0400 From: Kenneth R Carpenter Subject: Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder Hi, Jase... I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that this news byte isn't true. I'd really like to think that the adults involved in this situation are doing more productive things for their community than slapping a coat of paint on this and feeling like they've done something useful. Thanks for restoring some small piece of my faith in people. Kenn >>> 04/23/99 01:01PM >>> In a message dated 99-04-23 12:49:54 EDT, you write: << Hell, I just read on Yahoo! News that the schools in the Denver area have all implemented a "no trenchcoats" policy. They're wasting time discussing outerwear instead of getting to the real root of the problem. >> Hi, I don't post much, but I live in Colorado, go to Colorado schooling, I've been to Columbine a few times, and this statement is entirely incorrect. Right now the school district really doesn't care about what you wear, they are more worried about what they will do with the students of Columbine High, since the school will not be opening again this year, or ever. I realize this isn't your fault for reading this and believing this, I just wanted to say that this is not true, and almost always, the media can't be believed. Jase - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:56:35 -0400 From: "Chris Povie" Subject: Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder Perhaps the media should focus less on what kids listen to/watch, and more on what those kids come home to after school (namely the drunken stepfathers who touch them where their bathing suits cover) when trying to 'unearth' the horrible 'cause' of these tragedies. If ANY music ever caused me to violently lash out at people it sure wouldn't be KMFDM or Marilyn Manson-- It would be Celine Deon's ugly mug yappin' at me incessantly-- or Michael Bolton's horrid warblings regarded, literally, as gospel. THAT is reason enough to lose all faith in humankind. Chris - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 02:14:21 EDT From: DWspinTHIS@aol.com Subject: Re: (harbinger) music a recipe for murder >>These are just two songs right off the bat I can think of in which lyrics could be taken into another sense by a depressed person. I am outraged that the media can take a song and put in the context that the lyrics were the driving force behind the crime at hand. I know it is highly unlikely that a song by Paula or Shawn could ever be brought up in a murder case but I am saying that we as a nation need to speak out and let the media know music does not kill. >> i'm going to disagree somewhat with this statement. i do feel that music, directly, is not, nor should be blamed, for crime, however, as a high school student myself, i've taken notice to how music influences teenage lives. i will say that music, for me personally, is the first place that i turn to for answers, for a way out of feeling the way that i do at a certain moment, mostly for a way to feel better. i can see how easily someone can become influenced by lyrics to a song. ken said <> and this is exactly the way i feel. like i said, the music may make me feel better, but i simply needed a little help bringing it out. at any rate, back to my mention of how i've taken notice in the students of my school. first of all, a little background may be needed. my grade school district had been perdominantly white, but my high school brings in a few communities that are african american, so right there--even though we probably don't mean it to be this way, there certainly isn't much white vs. black conflict, we've been lucky enough to have been able to accept each other-- we've got one group here, one group there. the problem i've seen within the white students at my school is a different kind of, let's call it, segregation. you can typically tell exactly what kind of music any given student listens to. kids that listen to KMFDM, and marilyn manson, and rage against the machine, ICP, etc. to be honest, just dress and act differently than the kids that listen to "wholesome" music. and in one group in particular, which i've been closely acquainted with at times, fit the discription of the killers at columbine (sp?) high school. i watched the news and my exact thoughts were "brad and josh" the thing that scares me, simply, is that judging by what *i* listen to, and what influences me, and what i do and how i interpret song lyrics, i'd hate to think that "brad and josh" at my school, and to all of you who know the exact kind i'm talking about, feel the same things about THEIR music and just don't have the common sense in them to distinguish the difference between right and wrong, or good vs. evil. and we must ask ourselves are we ready to examine the music industry and put them on trial and judge them "good vs. evil" and what do we do after we "rid" ourselves of the evil? will the music industry be another salem, MA? will the crucible be adapted into a musical? hol - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger That's the way to unsub even for poor, benighted AOL users. Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ End of harbinger-digest V4 #49 ******************************