From: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org (harbinger-digest) To: harbinger-digest@smoe.org Subject: harbinger-digest V2 #82 Reply-To: harbinger@smoe.org Sender: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk harbinger-digest Monday, September 29 1997 Volume 02 : Number 082 HARBINGER DIGEST To post, mail harbinger@smoe.org To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger-digest To get list info file, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info harbinger-digest Today's Subjects: ---------------- (harbinger) my 2 cents (perhaps im a mean person who sucks) [HunterXTC@ao] (harbinger) "Me too" [Terry Auspitz ] Re: (harbinger) my 2 cents (perhaps im a mean person who sucks) [Jason ] Re: (harbinger) flames and mean people [Jason ] (harbinger) about the harbinger list and yes about paula :) ["ask ask] (harbinger) The Mean People Thing ["Kenn" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 06:16:09 -0400 (EDT) From: HunterXTC@aol.com Subject: (harbinger) my 2 cents (perhaps im a mean person who sucks) i think that when one signs up to a mailing list, one expects to get information on the person the list is about... i guess this list has evolved (or devovled as you like it) from the pre-this fire group of folks to the post cowboys group of personas who have migrated from the sarah list to here. obviously fte is an anything goes kinda place, one where sarah content is usually about 40 percent of the content at best.... i for one would hate to see this list become that way... and lately it has been going that way.... of course, paula is out of the country and perhaps theres not a whole lot to say about her... but god if i want to hear the endless tori- sarah - kate bush debate... well i think thats what the fte list is for. and i dont think that is a mean statemnt to make. i know that these artists are related in numerous ways, and that perhaps there is some neccessity to talk about them on this list... but it just seems like we have lost paula in the process... maybe jason likes the flow of mail coming thru and if he does its cool, but i for one miss the intelligent posts that kenn carpanter used to send, and even though i thought id never say this.. i even miss rich's sarcastic battles with me and others over silly stuff related to paula. the list of late is seemingly becoming fte part 2 in my opinion.... oh well at least the ani list still has creative souls who really could care less about sarah and tori for the most part.... still wondering why my so called life makes my stomach hurt when i watch it... spanish - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:00:12 -0400 From: Terry Auspitz Subject: (harbinger) "Me too" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------783984A81FCB500A5AEEB01F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NOTE: Before replying, please see the end of this message. I have to say that as a long-time reader of this lest, I have some rather mixed feeling about some recent posts I've seen. For what it's worth, I'd just like to articulate my feelings and then, hopefully, we can get back to talking about Paula (though this message will not be totally devoid of Paula content). First of all, this list is provided for the purpose of talking about Paula Cole. The list is open to the general public, and I don't think anyone should be 'kicked off the list.' Ever. I think most of us on the list are fans of music that resulted from independent and creative thought, and quite frankly the fact that someone here would suggest what basically amounts to censorship astounds me. I think there is a bit of an elitist attitide being taken by the "pre-This Fire" Paula fans. On the one hand, we say that we are glad Paula is getting the exposure she deserves, but then we turn around and say that people are not "real fans" unless they heard of Paula Cole before October 16, 1996. While I would consider that attitude inapptopriate even in a Usenet newsgroup (which takes no effort to join), I don't understand how we can say that to anyone who took the effort to search to internet for a Paula Cole mailing list. I have been listening to Paula since 1995, but to those who joined the list after seeing "This Fire" in the record stores or hearing "Cowboys" or "I Don't Want to Wait" on the radio, I simply say, "Welcome, please come join us and feel free to share with us your thoughts on Paula, or just listen to what other people think if you wish. Oh, and by the way, Harbinger, Paula's first album, is excellent, I highly recommend it." Whether you like them or not, Tori Amos, Alanis Morrisette and Sarah McLachlan played a major part in popularizing a certain music style (call it female singer/songwriter, female alternative, whatever... I don't label, I just listen) that Paula happens to get categorized into. Likewise, Kate Bush and others whose names escape me when I am this tired (I just worked an overnight shift) invented that style and are acknowledged by Paula as influences. Discussion of all of these artists, therefore, can be appropriate depending on the context. In addition, Paula opened for Sarah for a number of concerts, and I personally feel that there is a bit of a Sarah influence in a number of Paula's _This Fire_ songs (comments, anyone?). While popularity does not equal talent, I have yet to see anyone here say they feel any of these artists are not talented. It just seems to be a matter of "I don't like her, therefore, she sucks." Please remember that whether or not you like an artist is a matter of personal taste. For example, I don't think anyone here is questioning that Tori Amos is a technically talented musician. The arguments that I have heard basically boil down to "I can't interpret her lyrics/why should I have to interpret her lyrics." Look at it this way: Let's say you like impressionist art (as I do), but don't like abstract art. You might like paintings by Monet because of they way they use the paint to create a vivid image, but not like abstract art because you don't like trying to guess what the artist meant by something in the painting. That does not mean, however, that the absract artists are unable to make a realistic painting (in fact, Picasso was a very skilled realistic artist and made a part of his living illustrating books), it simply means that they chose not to do so. Likewise, I *personally* like songs that create realistic images. I do not assume that Tori lacks that ability simply because she chooses not to do so. In my opinion, Tori is a very talented artist. Even though I do not personally like much of the music she has written, I have a lot of respect for her ability to write them. If you want to discuss aspects of the specific songs or general style of any artist, or even compare/contrast them, please do so, but pointless insults benefit no one and only succeed in making the poster look like they have no sound basis for their arguments. Finally, let's remember we all share a common interest... Try to remember that before putting anyone down. Jaso, I apologize for taking up extra bandwidth with this message that is mostly unrelated to anything to do with this list. If this qualifies as spam, it's my first in my 6 years on the internet and again I'm sorry. To all the users of this list who have NOT been part of the above mentioned problems, I apologize for taking up your valuable time with this. To minimize further "noise" on the list, please reply as follows: IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO ANY MUSIC-RELATED CONTENT, please reply to the list (just reply to this message as normal). IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO MY OPINIONS ON LIST CONTENT AND/OR LIST CONDUCT, reply to me personally at tma2@erols.com IF YOU ARE REPLYING TO FLAME ME, send it to /dev/null. - --------------783984A81FCB500A5AEEB01F Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Terry Auspitz Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Terry Auspitz n: Auspitz;Terry email;internet: tma2@erols.com tel;home: (215) 328-9986 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end: vcard - --------------783984A81FCB500A5AEEB01F-- - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:38:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason Subject: Re: (harbinger) my 2 cents (perhaps im a mean person who sucks) On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 HunterXTC@aol.com wrote: > these artists are related in numerous ways, and that perhaps there is some > neccessity to talk about them on this list... but it just seems like we have > lost paula in the process... > > maybe jason likes the flow of mail coming thru and if he does its cool, but i I've never understood where people get the idea that because one conversation is going on other can't somehow miraculously occur. The reason I haven't said anything is the list from the beginning was open to discussion of Paula and other related *music* and the posts you and others have complained about have been about other related musicians and haven't been fte-type "who am going to the prom with?" posts. And the number of posts involved has been very low--maybe four a day. I think the largest digest that has been put out this week was maybe ten messages. Not exactly an overwhelming torrent of non-Paula posting. If you want to read posts about Paula, post about Paula and generate responses. There's a harbinger-news list for Paula-related news only, so if someone only wants Paula tour info and such there's already such a place. No need for Paula-only whines (and here I'm not referring to the specific post I'm replying to, just in general) on the list--and these stupid posting policy threads usually take up more bandwidth than the threads being complained about. Jason - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:51:48 -0400 From: Chris Tower Subject: (harbinger) flames and mean people to all: I have been a member of many lists for years, even before the Internet an= d we did this stuff by postal mail, and I have the "this is the ___insert artist's name here__ and so let's not write about anything else" argument= for years. I think there's problems with this argument. Sure, mean people suck. Taking a pot shot at an album or an artist withou= t any reasons or evidence, just a breaking ball insult, low and away, is ju= st nasty. And I agree with Mike that these reactionary terse types can be ignored because they really haven't said anything of value. "Surfacing sucks but Boys for Pele sucks more" is a waste of my time. I have no idea= why this person thinks it sucks and since many of us disagree, who cares.= But should we refrain from any discourse at all? Should we just talk abou= t Paula? I don't think so. Now I know what some of you are thinking. Who is this guy? Some newbie. Some lurker. Check out my "amazing" reasoning though... ;-) I think discussions of musical artists, like the whole Sarah-Tori thread,= will inform our discussions of Paula. Sure, such discourses can get WAY o= ut of hand either because of insults or because we stray for too long from subjects of Paula. But I will ALWAYS speak out about my freedom to write about whatever I want. I would add to Mike's "Mean People Suck" that "Rules Suck" ... mostly. We shouldn't even have to have a rule about not being mean to people, eve= n though that's subject, and what sounds like an edifying debate to some, sounds like an insulting match to others. I like where Mike's heart is, but I think he has it backwards. It is our ability to disagree and to voice these disagreements that make us free. Even the insulters taking shots at stuff without very good aim, they're free. So I vote for continued disagreement as long as it's not mean-spirited about whatever we wish as long as we don't read too many Harbingers with nothing about Paula at all. Then we should all do our level best to talk Paula. Like that enterprising chap who started the "what Peter Gabriel song woul= d Paula cover?" thread. I picked "Wallflower." = What's the opinions of everyone else? peace chris "it's me who makes the monsters" - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:32:19 +0000 From: JMMJVMD Subject: Re: (harbinger) flames and mean people Chris Tower wrote: > Like that enterprising chap who started the "what Peter Gabriel song >>>>would Paula cover?" thread. I picked "Wallflower." > What's the opinions of everyone else? I'd like to hear two: Here Comes The Flood and Rhythm of the Heat, I think Paula would pump new life into these truly classic rock hymns. Jim - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:32:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason Subject: Re: (harbinger) flames and mean people On Sun, 28 Sep 1997, JMMJVMD wrote: > > Here Comes The Flood and Rhythm of the Heat, I think Paula would pump > new life into these truly classic rock hymns. > I kind of hate covers where the person just does the original song...watched the Craft last night and my wife and I couldn't decide which cover was more unoriginal...Butler's How Soon Is Now? or Heather Nova's I Have the Touch. I have a feeling that there isn't that much that can be done differently with Wallflower or Here Comes the Flood (the songs fit her voice well, and she'd sound great doing Wallflower), but Rhythm of the Heat is one she could really pull apart and make her own... and Jay's! :) [Hey Rich...if you're reading this, how about keeping the cabaret song/songs in the set list for the US tour? I'd rather see Paula than Ute Lemper any day!] Jason - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:18:20 PDT From: "ask ask:\)" Subject: (harbinger) about the harbinger list and yes about paula :) Okay finally i decided to post hi everyone :) I am new to this list so bear with me .. :) Here is what i have seen since this list got moved to the various servers... The discussion on Paula has decreased dramaticaly after lilith fair. And I think the discussion should have more interest since she is having her own tour and that she doesn't have to compete with otrher artist that lilith fair unfortunatly shows. At this years Lilith fair (calgary) i came out with there impressions : 1. the artist is fighting to have a good applause 2. the wanting to see sarah is bad since everyone is just really wating for that part of the show and kinda half hardedly sees everyone else unless u know there music 3. when an artist gets everyone in a good mood ie. Which i felt when Mary Jane Lamond did her set she was great she had everyone on the second stage dancing to her music 4. and my overall impression its is good she didn't play in Calgary because if she did i would be excited to see her but in the same light I would more then likely get dissapointed since she would have fought comming on first on mainstage (which lisa lobe took her place)and that is how i see it (since i was upset that she didn't come and that is were my own irony comes in) and my two cents comments on the list its self.. 1. yes we should let the artist that has there own list to leave the deiscusion there ... and not bring it here. 2. can we start talking more about paula :) ie. when is ww.paulacole.com going to come up ?!?!? thanks for your time unknown32 Warren Calgary , Alberta , Canada ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:53:33 -0400 From: "Kenn" Subject: (harbinger) The Mean People Thing My brother in forthrightness, Spanish, wrote: > i think that when one signs up to a mailing list, one expects to get > information on the person the list is about... I know that's always been my take on the idea of mailing lists. Naturally, others have different ideas and that's why these threads have arisen on every list to which I have ever subscribed. (Except Heather Nova's list, where, wisely, martial law was imposed many moons ago and any potentially long-running off-topic threads are strongly encouraged to take the subject private.) > i guess this list has evolved (or devolved as you like it) Oh, man... that's tempting, but I don't want to ruffle too many feathers just now. > from the pre-this fire group of folks to the post cowboys group of > personas who have migrated from the sarah list to here. I've sensed that, too. And, please, folks...before anyone jumps back into the tired old argument of oldies vs. newbies.... that's not what anyone is talking about here. No one on this list has a vendetta against people who became fans of Paula after they heard "Cowboys" on the radio. This isn't about some ridiculous idea of exclusivity based on list seniority. > obviously fte is an anything goes kinda place, one where sarah > content is usually about 40 percent of the content at best.... i for one > would hate to see this list become that way... and lately it has been > going that way.... of course, paula is out of the country and perhaps > theres not a whole lot to say about her... I unsubbed from FTE almost a month ago for that very reason. Too much off-topic posturing. Of course, that's simply *my* opinion. Some people like that kind of stuff and I support them in their appreciation of it. > but god if i want to hear the endless tori- sarah - kate bush debate... > well i think thats what the fte list is for. Actually, Ecto would be an even better place for it, but the thread wouldn't last very long. Kate is about the only one of the trio that Spanish mentioned that gets much air time on Ecto. > and i dont think that is a mean statemnt to make. It's not even remotely mean to say that. It's honest. And, you're right, Spanish. If someone wants to discuss a certain topic ad nauseum (be it Tori Amos or Dungeons and Dragons or whatever), there are mailing lists and newsgroups available where one can do just that. And, as an added benefit, by subscribing to those lists or newsgroups, one can be pretty sure that everyone else who subscribes will probably give a rat's ass about one's thoughts on the subject and all parties can chat to their hearts' content. > i know that these artists are related in numerous ways, and that > perhaps there is some neccessity to talk about them on this list... but it > just seems like we have lost paula in the process... Again, I agree with you, Spanish. On this list, references to artists other than Paula (other musicians, writers, poets, etc.) are bound to be made. Very often, in the context of a post, it is beneficial to explore certain comparisons and contrasts between Paula's music and the works of another artist. Some of the most engaging and long-lived threads on this list have discussed artists that Paula has named as personal influences or has simply stated she likes (Bob Marley, Pablo Neruda, Zora Neale Hurston, etc.). However, as so often occurs, new subscribers sometimes don't take the time to feel out the mood of a list to which they have newly joined before adding their thoughts to the exchange. Similarly, they sometimes don't take notice of the approach to posting observed by the large number of subscribers who have been members of the list prior to the newbie's self-inclusion. Generally, those posts are innocuous flattery toward the artist. Fine, no harm done. But there are instances when it appears to long-time subscribers that a new member is flagrantly flying in the face of what has been an unspoken code of behavior on the list for quite a long time. That's not to say that change can't be good for a list. Sometimes it's nice to add a little spice to the mix. But sometimes, it's not. Sometimes it's just off-topic babbling that most list members don't care about and, in most cases, are hesitant to challenge. That generally leads to a general feeling of discontent and flamewars often ensue. (Let me also add that I can readily attest that off-topicality is not something reserved solely for newbies - it occasionally even happens to we old fogies.) In the case of newbies, I choose to believe that this off-topicality occurs primarily because a new subscriber is just excited about tapping into what can be a plethora of information on an artist whose music has touched him or her deeply enough to want to follow their career more closely. They join a list and, when it gets slow (which is bound to happen), they still want to talk about ideas. They're bored. So... they just start talking about another artist they like. Understandable, but not well-received, generally. The common precipitate of that behavior is usually some sort of reprimand, which is very often public and, unfortunately, sometimes mean-spirited. I don't condone flaming other subscribers, new or old, however, on this point, I can empathize with the feelings that spur the actions of long-standing subscribers. A couple of months ago, Jason Greshes (he's the list manager for those who aren't aware) went through a really rough time with the members of this list. There was a great deal of in-fighting at that time. Wisely, his ultimate decision was to make multiple versions of Harbinger available to us. Those versions allow us to choose how we get the information that is posted. If you just want the facts and nothing but the facts, you can be accommodated. If it's every little thing that gets posted that you crave, you can have that, too. I happen to have chosen the latter. Sometimes, especially lately, I have regretted that decision. That's on me, though. But, it does get me down when I read through my mail from Harbinger and find only off-topic banter where nothing of substance being discussed. It just seems to me that Paula's music is an interesting enough topic that, even though she's not touring the U.S. right now and there's not a new album coming out in the near future, the music she has shared with us to date is fodder enough to keep us busy for quite a long time. I don't know about the rest of you, but, like with other artists to whom I listen, her music means something different to me every time I hear it. *That* is what I would love to see discussed here - not whether Sarah's new album sucks or whether Tori Amos is a pretentious, overrated, caterwauling hack. That's is, of course, unless it has something... *anything*... to do with Paula and you can clearly tie it in with Paula's music. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense to post it here. > maybe jason likes the flow of mail coming thru and if he does its cool, I don't know if Jason likes it or not. I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that, in his heart of hearts, the off-topic stuff frosts his cookies, too. > but i for one miss the intelligent posts that kenn carpanter used to send, Don't cry for me, Argentina.....the truth is I never left you.... ;^) Thanks for the props, Spanish. You're a gem. I've just haven't been in the mailing list vibe for a couple of months. My real life has been more interesting. However, things are beginning to settle back into the comfortably numb range, again, so, I'm back in the saddle again. I'm glad to see you're still around, my friend. I've missed talking to you. > and even though i thought id never say this.. i even miss rich's > sarcastic battles with me and others over silly stuff related to paula. ACK!!! Bite your tongue, Spanish. I damned near threw a party when I found out that Rich and his partner in slime (I'll leave him unnamed) unsubbed from Harbinger. Seriously, if you ever really miss Rich's guerilla posting tactics and his acid tongue that much, just let me know. I'll send you a nasty post and you can pretend I'm him. :^) > the list of late is seemingly becoming fte part 2 in my opinion.... Oooo... another temptation.... (Oh, heavens... my tongue is bleeding...) > still wondering why my so called life makes my stomach hurt when i > watch it... Didn't you hear? The Surgeon General has discovered that self-involved, overly intense, melodramatic, financially-advantaged teenagers can cause chronic gastro-intestinal distress in intelligent, gainfully employed, emotionally balanced adults over the age of 25. With all the recent hubbub about Fen-Phen, I guess you could have easily missed that one.... ;^) I'm back in the ring. Peace. Kenn - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Momrox1@aol.com Subject: Re: (harbinger) The Mean People Thing Kenn said: << I'm back in the ring. >> Hey- Yippee!!! Judy - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:58:46 -0400 (EDT) From: HunterXTC@aol.com Subject: (harbinger) paula and peter gabriel.... In a message dated 97-09-28 14:13:24 EDT, you write: << Chris Tower wrote: > Like that enterprising chap who started the "what Peter Gabriel song >>>>would Paula cover?" thread. I picked "Wallflower." > What's the opinions of everyone else? >> i for one have always wondered what paula would sound like singing games without frontiers... she already has the whistling part down pat from hitlers brothers :)... i dont know if this woud count, but some of my fave peter gabriel comes from his genesis days, especially the lamb lies down on broadway days. theres a song on that record called the carpet crawlers that really would be perfect for paula's soaring vocals... still wondering why im sooo happy.. its because kenn is back!!! spanish - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:25:49 +0000 From: JMMJVMD Subject: Re: (harbinger) paula and peter gabriel.... HunterXTC@aol.com wrote: > gabriel comes from his genesis days, especially the lamb lies down on > broadway days. theres a song on that record called the carpet crawlers that > really would be perfect for paula's soaring vocals... Hi Spanish! Yes, I agree. I always felt that Gabriel's version paled in comparison to Collins's, and that is a rarity for Genesis live versions (for Phil to sound better than Peter). Paula would blow both of their larynxes away. :) Jim - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ End of harbinger-digest V2 #82 ******************************