From: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org (harbinger-digest) To: harbinger-digest@smoe.org Subject: harbinger-digest V2 #63 Reply-To: harbinger@smoe.org Sender: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk harbinger-digest Tuesday, September 9 1997 Volume 02 : Number 063 HARBINGER DIGEST To post, mail harbinger@smoe.org To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger-digest To get list info file, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info harbinger-digest Today's Subjects: ---------------- Re: (harbinger) RE: Hitler's Brothers [Ruediger Hanke Subject: Re: (harbinger) RE: Hitler's Brothers Kristine Boeke wrote: > Ruediger wrote: > Lyrics are one of the most important things for me, almost even more important > than the music itself, and I must say that Paula is an excellent lyricist!! > The only song I wish she wouldn't have written is "Hitler's Brothers". > > At the risk of raising an incredibly controversial issue on this list, I was > wondering why you wished Paula had not written Hitler's Brothers? It's not > personally one of my favorites, but as a graduate student studying the > Holocaust, I think her political message is extremely important. What about > the song is it that you don't like? First of all, let me apologize that I wasn't able to reply sooner to this one and explain, but our dog died just one day after my introduction message to the list, so I'm quite down right now, as all of my joy has gone out of my life. That's also why I'll keep the answer short: I think Paula mixes up two things: Hate against foreign people in our time, and Hitler. Hitler was a unique case in history, if you ask me. He was something of an ill-minded genius, a cunning, complex figure with his own motivations. And: "Another Hitler" *can* happen again. Remember that he was elected because he promised work and food in bad times, not because he was off to kill the Jews. Nobody could have known what would happen. Today's violence, on the contrary, is rather one-dimensional, blind hatred. If they were really "Hitler's Brothers", good God! This world would be under their control... Hitler's motivations will perhaps always remain a mystery. Maybe it was blind hatred, but in my opinion, it was rather that he really wanted the best for his country, and in this process became thoroughly evil (Good perverted to evil is a common theme throughout fantasy literature, just see the Kingpriest of Istar in the Dragonlance Saga), where "good" is defined as of *your* believes, which may be far away from what is really good. I doubt that people who beat up (or even kill) foreign people, people of another skin color, have any "believes". They act out of blind hatred, even if they might say something different. So I say: You can write on both, but seperately. "The Last Time I Cried" is a song I love with one verse dealing with that Hitler theme, but seperated from what's happening today: "The last time I cried, I could see the people long ago in the rain Waiting as the soldiers put them all on the train And the hands on the bars The eyes full of tears And the word is the same For a thousand years: Eli eli lama, oh Lord, you have forsaken me Eli eli lama, oh why, have you forsaken me?" I think that's the way it should be done, IMHO... Ruediger - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 14:38:42 +0200 From: Ruediger Hanke Subject: (harbinger) B. Titus' page (was: Re: Letterman Performance Review?) Stewart Steven NTC/INP-He wrote: > Also, B. Titus' page has been such an amazing resource for me, I am sad that > the page doesn't seem to have been updated for a while. No chart news on > IDWTW, gossip, article references, etc. I know he mentioned that it wasn't > as fun now that she is gaining popularity...but I am still SO grateful for > all of the information he generously provided in the past that I would hate > for that resource to be cut off. I, too, regret that B. Titus doesn't seem to be working on his page anymore, asthe information is partially no longer up-to-date (the mailing list information in particular - I managed to subscribe to the list only by trial-and-error). However, I think someone (Paula really deserves it!!) should continue working on the page, and if not B. Titus, then somebody else should perhaps do it??? I think it's time to "clean up" the page, as most of the information is stuffed into one big info-page. The information is great, but the presentation needs some re-organization. I have done a page myself for another brand-new singer (yes, my motivation was to make the very first page for a new singer who's not yet very popular as well), which is IMHO a bit neater and slightly better organized. Though most of you won't perhaps like that singer (my taste includes simply everything...); if you want, check out: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/9017/index.html (note: it's still under construction) Have a look esp. at the gallery, articles and discography (in which I put the most efforts). That's how I'd like to see it on a Paula Cole page as well. I tried to make navigation as easy as possible as well. Don't you think Paula had deserved to have a page in a similar way? It would be great if someone would start working on it, and I'd surely contribute to it! Ruediger - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 15:10:51 -0400 From: Terry Auspitz Subject: Re: (harbinger) Paula on new Philadelphia radio station This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------61058CEB7C9E6B036654C071 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim Clausz wrote: > For those of you in the Philadelphia area: > > On Friday at 6:00pm, WFLN (95.7) changed formats from classical to a > mix of > alternative music, modern rock and pop. So far I have heard Sheryl > Crow, > Dave Matthews Band, matchbox 20, Counting Crows, Talking Heads, > and....... > PAULA COLE! I heard > "I Don't Want to Wait." > > Just wanted to let those in the area know that Paula can now be > heard on yet another station. > > Tim > > ------------------------------ > To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: > unsubscribe harbinger > > Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: > http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html > For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com Thanks for the update.... Now I know what to do with that preset that I've been meaning to reset since 96.1 WLEV went country. (And it's in the same place so I don't have to bump a bunch or presets over one button!) -Terry =) - --------------61058CEB7C9E6B036654C071 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Terry Auspitz Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Terry Auspitz n: Auspitz;Terry org: JB & Associates, Consulting email;internet: tma2@erols.com x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE end: vcard - --------------61058CEB7C9E6B036654C071-- - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 03:06:51 UT From: "Kristine Boeke" Subject: RE: (harbinger) RE: Hitler's Brothers Well, this list really isn't about Nazi ideology or anything, but since one of Paula's songs discusses it, I guess I can put in my two cents in response to Reudiger's explanation of why he doesn't like the song Hitler's Brothers. Sorry about the death of your dog. I really love animals myself, so I can imagine how sad you must be. "I think Paula mixes up two things: Hate against foreign people in our time, and Hitler. Hitler was a unique case in history, if you ask me. . .Remember that he was elected because he promised work and food in bad times, not because he was off to kill the Jews." To start with, I wonder how you define "foreign people." Foreigners to you in Germany will not be "foreigners" to me in the US, nor to someone in South America. African Americans in the US are not foreigners in the US, yet they have and still do face quite a great deal of racial discrimination in their own country. German Jews who had lived in Germany for hundreds of years were German citizens in the Weimar Republic and before that, but the Nazi regime passed laws to systematically define them as foreigners and "aliens." Their German citizenship was taken away because they were Jewish, and they lost all rights of citizenship (and eventually any rights to life and dignity as human beings). Perhaps Hitler was at first popular because he promised and brought improved economic situations (for non-Jews), but he had an extreme anti-Semitic bent long before he became Chancellor. His original vision included a world free of Jews. The non-Jewish German people willingly overlooked the changes in racial laws and discrimination toward Jews, and this was a central component to Nazi ideology. "Today's violence, on the contrary, is rather one-dimensional, blind hatred. If they were really "Hitler's Brothers", good God! This world would be under their control..." Why? The "world" was never under Hitler's control (although a great deal was). What is blind hatred? Racism and anti-Semitism result from a belief system, an ideology, no matter how crude. People don't hate because they were born that way. They learn it. Violence today results from a belief system, possibly in a belief in the inferiority of certain groups of people, or the superiority of others (or both). "Hitler's motivations will perhaps always remain a mystery. Maybe it was blind hatred, but in my opinion, it was rather that he really wanted the best for his country, and in this process became thoroughly evil, . . . where "good" is defined as of *your* believes, which may be far away from what is really good." Hitler's motivations may be mysterious in one sense, but in another, he told us. Throughout many of his recorded speeches and his book Mein Kampf, he delineated his motivations for treating Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the disabled, Communists, Poles, etc. the way he did: he believed they were inferior and so-called "Aryans" were superior. He also believed the Jews were conspiring to control the world and were therefore an even more dangerous threat, hence the more perverse and inhumane treatment toward them. Of course Hitler thought he was doing what was best for his country. What leader ever doesn't? Obviously he wasn't considering what was "best" for German Jews, German Communists, German handicapped people (they were the first to be gassed), German homosexuals. He defined who was "good" and who was "bad" and then treated the "bad" people as less than human. Average citizens allowed him to control this defining process. The treatment of these people was so disgusting and inhumane, that even animals aren't treated so poorly as the Nazis treated these German citizens. Ironically, Hitler had a concern for animal rights, and even wrote a paper on what would be the least painful way of killing lobsters: either throwing them into boiling water, or letting the water heat up slowly. "I doubt that people who beat up (or even kill) foreign people, people of another skin color, have any "believes". They act out of blind hatred, even if they might say something different." Why would anyone just beat someone up for no reason. They hate someone because they believe something about that person. They believe there is something worth hating, or they feel threatened, or whatever. I don't care if the people are "foreign" or "citizens." You (in the general sense) better have a damn good reason for beating them up, or sending them to prison, or killing them. Power and fear are not good justifications. My interpretation of Paula's song is precisely that prejudiced people today are ideological relatives of Hitler. Their ideas come from the same family of belief systems. My disappointment with the song was that it only dealt with the most blatant forms of racism, ie burning KKK crosses or whatever. No matter who we are (myself very much included), we each need to allow ourselves to be confronted with the ways that we might have remnants of discriminatory, or perhaps merely insensitive, feelings or thoughts toward others who are different than us. We can always change, and I think that's a point of the song. I don't want to tell people that you have to be "politically correct" because that's such a loaded term. But as decent human beings, we can at least try to accept people who are different from us as humans worthy of respect and dignity. I think part of the controversy over political correctness is the struggle over who will be the DEFINER of who is "in" and "out," good and bad. People who have been left out in the past want equal input, precisely to prevent such extreme situations like the KKK or Nazis (at least people I know). At the Holocaust Museum in Los Angeles, you have to pass through one of two doors. On one door is a small sign that says "free of prejudice." On the other it says "I'm prejudiced." (or something like that). If you try to go through the door that says "free of prejudice," you'll find that it's locked. "Eli eli lama, oh Lord, you have forsaken me Eli eli lama, oh why, have you forsaken me?" Interesting choice of lyrics. Although Jesus quoted them while dying on the cross, they were actually written and spoken by (another) Jew in a Psalm in the Old Testament. Many Jews during and after the Holocaust made a similar cry. Sorry if the strength of my reply puts you off a little, but I feel very strongly about this, and feel I too have the right to express my opinion. I'm actually glad that you shared yours. Perhaps it (and mine) will generate a bit of interesting conversation. Sincerely, Kristine Boeke - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ End of harbinger-digest V2 #63 ******************************