From: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org (harbinger-digest) To: harbinger-digest@smoe.org Subject: harbinger-digest V2 #34 Reply-To: harbinger@smoe.org Sender: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-harbinger-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk harbinger-digest Sunday, August 10 1997 Volume 02 : Number 034 HARBINGER DIGEST To post, mail harbinger@smoe.org To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger-digest To get list info file, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: info harbinger-digest Today's Subjects: ---------------- (harbinger) You look like Sally Jesse!!! ["MoWsE" ] Re: (harbinger) discussing stuff -Reply [Pipkyn@aol.com] (harbinger) The Cowboys thread.... ["Kenn Carpenter" ] Re: (harbinger) paula, feminism & humor ["Kristine E. Boeke" ] Re: (harbinger) paula posters [Chris Ladd ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 05:16:42 -0700 From: "MoWsE" Subject: (harbinger) You look like Sally Jesse!!! KEN: It is a SONG....a story, even. I wonder if you don't have someone in mind when you think of the tune??? But....beyond all that...what about the woman buying the man the beer??? Beer is the best thing for this kind of worthless ungratefull pig, hehehhehe I can be extreme like you tooooooo....hehehehehe.....do I sound like you in er, reverse?....it is a song and your interpretation is absolutely meaningfull and real...but, not to everyone. I'm thinkin' I read something about Nancy Reagan and Frank Sinatra on this LIST...uh, whoah!!! That is way more than I wanted to know...and more than I bargained for here. (it's late and I'm only reading between the lines tonight) Oh yeah, I have run into the instance many a time where a married man doesn't notice something as major as a change of hair color? A new dres is minor....bought and sold, so to speak. It isn't Whiny to expect notice from One's husband unit... A new dress is often a ploy, yes...but to what end? That is the Question!!! People's behavior......???? Mouse - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:31:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Pipkyn@aol.com Subject: Re: (harbinger) discussing stuff -Reply In a message dated 97-08-08 19:58:12 EDT, Kenn writes: > But, she is also an individual and she's responsible for her own > well-being and happiness. If she's not happy with who he has become, > she shouldn't be with him. I'm hesitant to use psycho-babble, but she's > enabling him (Ugh... I feel like Sally Jesse...) by sticking around, picking > up his dirty underwear and buying him even more beer when she goes > to do her grocery shopping at the local Piggly Wiggly. - --[snip] > "What about the kids? You can't just summarily dismiss their involvement > in this family! They deserve to grow up in a two-parent home!" - --[snip] > My response to those exclamations would be the same. Are these > people happy? If he's not happy and she's not happy, why bother being > together? Certainly not for the kids' sakes. Why would the kids want to > be living to two really unhappy people? Marriage vows, religious > implications and family values aside, going separate ways sounds like a > good plan for this couple. Ah, but Kenn, you're forgetting...a large section of single moms are near or at or below the income poverty level. Statistically, men's income increases and women's income decreases upon divorce. It's easy to say "She should live her own life and not be miserable with the kids." However, one must realize that she may be stuck-- there may NOT be a real choice here. As for the man who didn't fulfill her dreams...it's obvious at the beginning of the song that they had a bargain--she would be the homemaker if he took care of the family. It is my interpretation that he's not--he's wasting away his time and money at the bar, NOT caring for his family. I don't think she had any illusions of what she was getting into agreeing to be a homemaker. She's disappointed that he didn't keep up HIS end of the bargain. My two cents... Irene - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:52:27 -0400 From: "Kenn Carpenter" Subject: (harbinger) The Cowboys thread.... Mouse wrote: > It is a SONG....a story, even. And art imitates life and vice versa. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I'm just talking. I'm not petitioning for a public stoning or anything. > I wonder if you don't have someone in mind when you think of the > tune??? Probably. Don't you? In fact, I could probably name many people of whom I'm reminded when I think of the story of "Cowboys." I'm grew up in a small rural community in Michigan, rife with "Cowboys" characters. But, don't sweat it... I don't lose sleep over this stuff. I just like to interpret art for myself. > ....it is a song and your interpretation is absolutely meaningfull and > real...but, not to everyone. I concur. Perhaps you missed the post in which I mentioned that these were my own personal views. Views I'm not trying to impose on anyone else. I'm just in a sharing kinda mood. > I'm thinkin' I read something about Nancy Reagan and Frank Sinatra on > this LIST...uh, whoah!!! That is way more than I wanted to know...and > more than I bargained for here. (it's late and I'm only reading between > the lines tonight) If that brief reference to Nancy and Frank knocked you off kilter then you had better buckle your seatbelt. We've gotten into *much* deeper stuff around here. Not so very long ago (before you subscribed probably) we were discussing Jung and how one of his concepts (the Nekyia) can be observed in some of Paula's music. You're not hanging out with a bunch of chimps around here. ;) > Oh yeah, I have run into the instance many a time where a married man > doesn't notice something as major as a change of hair color? A new > dres is minor....bought and sold, so to speak. It isn't Whiny to expect > notice from One's husband unit... A new dress is often a ploy, > yes...but to what end? That is the Question!!! People's behavior......???? I agree completely. I *do* think that people in relationships should be attentive to one another. I never said that I thought the woman depicted in "Cowboys" was whiny because she mentions that her beau didn't notice her new frock! I feel she's whining about her overall circumstances - that she is in a situation because she put herself there and now she's bemoaning her decisions. That's all. I'm not even saying that she's wrong for whining. Please understand that this is only *my* interpretation of this song. It doesn't have to be anyone else's. That's a great thing about art. Everyone can have their own opinion without a defensive debate ensuing. At least, I thought that's how it worked. Perhaps I've been mistaken? Peace. Kenn - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 14:34:50 -0400 From: "Kenn Carpenter" Subject: Re: (harbinger) discussing stuff -Reply -Reply Irene writes: > Ah, but Kenn, you're forgetting...a large section of single moms are > near or at or below the income poverty level. Statistically, men's > income increases and women's income decreases upon divorce. It seems like that would probably have to be the case if the woman is a stay-at-home mom and the guy is working outside the home. Unfortunately, housewives don't get a salary for their work, so if her primary source of income is his paycheck, then (not figuring in the possibility of a good alimony settlement) her income would definitely drop if they divorced. However, considering the divorce statistics in the U.S., personally, I'm a great advocate of maintaining one's marketable skills. One never knows when one might need to support oneself financially. A person (man or woman) who makes the decision to be the one who stays home with the kids is taking on the additional responsibility of having to provide for themselves in the event that the wage-earning spouse is no longer in the picture. And that absence doesn't just have to be the result of divorce. There's also the possibility that the wage-earning spouse could be permanently disabled or that the wage-earner could die. An ounce of prevention... > It's easy to say "She should live her own life and not be miserable with > the kids." However, one must realize that she may be stuck-- there > may NOT be a real choice here. There is always a choice. It might not be decision from which one will immediately yield fruit, but the decision itself can be made pretty quickly. She (or he) might not be able to pack up the bags, grab the kids and hit the interstate overnight, but even if the person has no marketable skills, those kind of skills can be obtained over time. Today, there are many means of obtaining an education, without really ever even needing to leave home. It really comes down to how much an given individual wants something different for themselves. > As for the man who didn't fulfill her dreams...it's obvious at the > beginning of the song that they had a bargain--she would be the > homemaker if he took care of the family. It is my interpretation that he's > not--he's wasting away his time and money at the bar, NOT caring for > his family. That's my interpretation, too. > I don't think she had any illusions of what she was getting into agreeing > to be a homemaker. She's disappointed that he didn't keep up HIS end > of the bargain. I think she had delusions about what the marriage was going to be. It seems that both of them probably had the best of intentions when they first married. They probably both thought they'd live the much ballyhooed American Dream and grow old together (and they very well might still be together when they're 70 - unfulfilled as ever). But, he ended up being a beer-guzzlin' lout who emotionally neglects her and the kids. And she forfeited her autonomy (in fact, her ability to exercise immediate change in her life, if need be) by putting herself in a position where she is all but forced to rely on him for financial support for herself and the children - and, in turn, is forced to live without his emotional support. Speaking only for myself, I'd find some way out for myself and my kids, no matter what it took. Really, I think it'd be great if we could realistically promise "forever and ever, amen," but the world and the people who live here are too changeable to accommodate that kind of luxury without certain repercussions. Anyone who is willing to jump into it anyway is taking on a huge responsibility for their future (and a sometimes unbelievable leap of faith) by involving another person in their decision-making processes. Isn't it interesting how these discussions can arise from the simplest of references to a song? :) Peace. Kenn - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:03:26 -0400 From: "Kenn Carpenter" Subject: (harbinger) "I Don't Want To Wait" on Friday Night Jukebox OK, everyone.... I was watching Friday Night last night (the one with Rita Severs) and in their first Jukebox, "I Don't Want To Wait" is featured as one of the three nominees. It's up against Robyn's "Do You Know (What It Takes)" and Super Fly's "Fly." So, get over to: http://www.nbc.com/NBCFridaynight/frimusic.asp and vote for Paula!!! We've got to get busy stuffing the ballot box!!! :) Peace. Kenn - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:59:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Pipkyn@aol.com Subject: Re: (harbinger) family life (was discussing) In a message dated 97-08-09 14:24:54 EDT, Kenn writes: > Isn't it interesting how these discussions can arise from the simplest of > references to a song? :) Absolutely! And this conversation is taking a turn that I'm not sure this list is ready for...it could get pretty nasty (philosophically, not personally, of course). :-) I agree with you that we need to maintain a little realism when it comes to relationships and marriage. A friend and I were discussing this the other day. She says she's accused of being pessimistic, when in fact she sees herself as being realistic. I would agree with her--I get the same complaint. It would be NICE if love and commitment were all-and-forever rosy, but it just ain't so. All we can do is go in with our eyes and minds open and be willing to work as hard as possible--TOGETHER--to make the relationship work as well and as long as it's good for all involved. >Peace ...yes, definitely! Irene - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:48:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason Subject: [none] Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970809175916_1018921142@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: harbinger@smoe.org Subject: Re: (harbinger) The Cowboys thread.... content-length: 632 In a message dated 97-08-09 14:44:24 EDT, Kenn writes: > Not so very long ago (before you subscribed probably) we > were discussing Jung and how one of his concepts (the Nekyia) can be > observed in some of Paula's music. You're not hanging out with a bunch > of chimps around here. ;) Amen for that! I've been on lists where there seems to be no brainwork involved from the members. "Please, unsubscribe me NOW!" is all I can say about those. Kenn, I for one want to thank you for getting us into these discussions. My brain needs the stretching now and then, especially during the summer when I'm not in school. Irene - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:27:50 -0500 From: "Kristine E. Boeke" Subject: Re: (harbinger) paula, feminism & humor Jason wrote: There are a few of us that enjoy and employ >sarcasm, but most everyday Americans understand sarcastic humor about as >much as your average bovine would. > >Those that are comming from a particular ideological background are even >worse. Notice that there isn't a "Big Book of Feminist Humor." > Hmmm . . . not to be picky, but your comment here, Jason, is sort of ironic since Paula herself comes from this "particular ideological background" called feminism, and she is the one who wrote the Cowboys song of sarcastic humor. It's easy to stereotype a culture you're not necessarily privvy to yourself, and in this case, I believe you are mistaken to assume that feminists lack a sense of humor, esp due to their ideology. - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: 09 Aug 1997 20:58:25 -0500 From: Randell Jesup Subject: (harbinger) Where have all the Skunk Boys gone? I was watching Talk Soup on E! this weekend (the only thing I ever watch on that channel), and the weekly wrap-up show ended with a full-length music video of "Where have all the skunk boys gone?". They even found a woman who could sing (not like Paula, of course). I was _highly_ amused. If I'd known, I'd have recorded it so I could transcribe the lyrics here. - -- Randell Jesup, Scala US R&D, Ex-Commodore-Amiga Engineer class of '94 Randell.Jesup@scala.com #include Exon food: - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 19:27:21 -0700 From: "MoWsE" Subject: Re: (harbinger) The Cowboys thread.... Ken....:) my apologies if my curiosities were taken as a stoning ;) Bless your heart...I just wanted to know where you were coming from...and these lists are so difficult sometimes to read without projecting a little...I do that all the time and try to counter it by asking questions rather than assuming. Of course your view and interpretation have the respect due...I don't throw stones :) I'm surely not without sin (biblical reference! hahaha the bible always makes me laugh) I think the real problem with communication is words :) !!! By the time you factor in connotation...you might as well forget conveying a clear message...gotta run ! Mouse - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:19:38 -0500 From: Chris Ladd Subject: Re: (harbinger) paula posters Hi , I wrote you about a week ago about the Paula posters. I hope you still have some because i happen to be going to my collewge town next week and can get that Barnes & Noble gift certificate. If the price is still $5 and you still have them , please let me know befopre monday morning. thanks, Chris - -----a morning after - ------------------------------ To unsubscribe, mail majordomo@smoe.org with: unsubscribe harbinger Digest, further unsub and problems FAQ at: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/lists/harbinger.html For This Fire kinda-lyrics write Riphug@aol.com ------------------------------ End of harbinger-digest V2 #34 ******************************