From: owner-goths-digest@smoe.org (goths-digest) To: goths-digest@smoe.org Subject: goths-digest V3 #108 Reply-To: goths@smoe.org Sender: owner-goths-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-goths-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk goths-digest Tuesday, May 25 1999 Volume 03 : Number 108 Today's Subjects: ----------------- In defense of Micah Westfall [Thomas Victor ] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall [Anitra33@aol.com] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall ["Burn Mellie" ] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall [KrodKnid@aol.com] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall [KrodKnid@aol.com] RE: In defense of Micah Westfall [Larry Davis ] death of the list... [Tracy ] RE: In defense of Micah Westfall ["Rainbow Bright" ] question for ya [LivnDy@aol.com] Re: question for ya ["Dani.M" ] Re: hate.... ["xoxo jane" ] RE: In defense of Micah Westfall [Larry Davis ] RE: In defense of Micah Westfall [Larry Davis ] Actual Band-related Question... [Carmilla ] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall [OneirosV@aol.com] RE: In defense of Micah Westfall ["Rainbow Bright" ] RE: In defense of Micah Westfall [FifthDreamToday@prodigy.com (MORPHEUS F] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall ["xoxo jane" ] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall [OneirosV@aol.com] my lovely goths! [ImAZeroSP@aol.com] Re: Actual Band-related Question... [OneirosV@aol.com] Re: Actual Band-related Question... ["posby" ] Re: In defense of Micah Westfall [DaliAdore@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 06:05:21 -0700 From: Thomas Victor Subject: In defense of Micah Westfall I am quite apalled by the christians responses of as late. As if christians are incapable of hatred. Are we forgeting, the crusades, gay bashing, witch trials, klu klux klan, athiest bashing, Jew bashing, Muslim bashing, abortion doctor killings, death penalties, and all the other general stupidities brought about by your religion? Including many murders on a daily basis "In the name of God?". At least have the fucking decency to own up to the truth. Hate the sin, love the sinner is the biggest piece of untrue bullshit ever muttered by one of you pathetic un-evolved lifeforms. MICAH WESTFALL wrote: > > I did not say I hate christians but that christians hate everyone. > > @/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@ > > On Sunday, May 23, 1999 2:17 PM, Rainbow Bright [SMTP:sunshine836@hotmail.com] wrote: > | > | >although i'm rather late in responding, i'd like to defend christianity. > | >against what micah said. maybe somebody already has, i don't know. i just > | >read his little jot and got incensed. > | >actually, it was such an inane comment i'm not sure how to respond. > | >hm. > | > | > | thank you, Michele...that is rather inane. if micah hates christians then > | maybe his comment would be justified. (but then his comment just wouldnt be > | true...i'm confusing me.) but people who truly are christians (and dont just > | call themselves christians) should and generally DO make it a point not to > | hate people. after all, according to their moral code, hatred is as bad as > | murder, which is (guess what?) spoken against in the commandments. ever > | heard the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner"? its ok to hate evil, but > | the person who does evil does not have to be hated. > | > | that concludes my sermon for today. pater noster qui es in caelis, etc, etc, > | Lori > | > | > | _______________________________________________________________ > | Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > | ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:15:57 EDT From: Anitra33@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall In a message dated 99-05-24 06:07:31 EDT, tenchi@gatecom.com writes: << I am quite apalled by the christians responses of as late. As if christians are incapable of hatred. Are we forgeting, the crusades, gay bashing, witch trials, klu klux klan, athiest bashing, Jew bashing, Muslim bashing, abortion doctor killings, death penalties, and all the other general stupidities brought about by your religion? Including many murders on a daily basis "In the name of God?". At least have the fucking decency to own up to the truth. Hate the sin, love the sinner is the biggest piece of untrue bullshit ever muttered by one of you pathetic un-evolved lifeforms. >> No one has the right to make such a sweeping generalization that "(insert group here) hates everyone." Because it simply isn't true. Not even the KKK hate everyone. That's not to say that anyone is incapable of hatred, though, because everyone is capable of it. People should be entitled to their own beliefs to the point that they don't harm innocent people around them, whether they be Wiccan, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, whatever. It makes me sick to read this narrowminded prejudiced bickering. Samantha np: the sidewinder sleeps tonite/r.e.m. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:46:38 PDT From: "Burn Mellie" Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall I am not surprised that those of you who are Christian are upset about Micah comment, but there is truth to what he is saying, if not then why would he say it. In my encounters with many Christians I have found them disrespectful and hateful towards me because of my beliefs. Only once has a Christian said to me "I understand and that's cool!" Groups of people will always be looked at as groups of people. Don't get mad when people generalize because a majority of people aren't like you. Furthermore, if numbers of people are saying that Christians are hateful, then instead of complaining you should try to change something. Prove everyone else wrong. Ciao Michelle "Astride of a grave and a difficult birth. Down in the hole, lingeringly, the grave digger puts on the foreceps." - Samuel Beckett _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 11:56:09 -0400 From: Larry Davis Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall I also agree. It seems that you guys are walking blind, when it comes to the truths about the truly evil things many Christians do "in the name of God". Not only that, the Church is a fucking, walking guilt trip. They try + shove their beliefs down your throats, and it seems that if you don't accept their ways, they say you're going to hell. True, isn't it?? If I was born into a Christian or Catholic household (thank goodness I wasn't!!), I'd want to get the hell out as soon as I possibly could!! I only personally know 4 truly good Christians, and believe me, they are in the minority. So, like Michelle says, prove us wrong that most Christians are not evil. Peace...Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:47:28 EDT From: KrodKnid@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall In a message dated 5/24/99 6:07:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tenchi@gatecom.com writes: << I am quite apalled by the christians responses of as late. As if christians are incapable of hatred. Are we forgeting, the crusades, gay bashing, witch trials, klu klux klan, athiest bashing, Jew bashing, Muslim bashing, abortion doctor killings, death penalties, and all the other general stupidities brought about by your religion? Including many murders on a daily basis "In the name of God?". At least have the fucking decency to own up to the truth. Hate the sin, love the sinner is the biggest piece of untrue bullshit ever muttered by one of you pathetic un-evolved lifeforms. >> Human beings have committed atrocity in the name of every religion that has ever existed,including every pagan belief.Before you blame Christians for the fact that humanity sucks big time,take a look at your own failure to be Christlike....................He went to the death turning the other cheek and didn't blame his murderers for it either.That there are many so-called Christians who take God's name in seeking their own vanity does not mean Christianity made them do it...........it means they are false Christians and typically sucking humans..............kind of like Charles Manson citing John Lennon as an inspiration..........think Lennon would co-sign Manson's "work"?And if you want to read about atrocities even more horrific than anything any pseudo-Christian has done,check out the activities of the Roman "Games" in depth(they did it to the Christians too)...................or how about the French Libertines?For ample horrors done in the name of homosexuality,check out those libertines ..........preferably through DeSade........talk about homosexuals on the rampage!Most half-way sensitive people can't make it even all the way through one of DeSade's books,especially when it dawns on them that a lot of his stuff was drawn from experience.I have had the stomach to read a lot of his works and it still hasn't led me to gay bashing or the warped idea that gays are all like the libertines.You would probably love DeSade and his ilk........they are among the supreme Christian bashers of all time!And BTW,speaking of unevolved life forms,your spelling is really atrocious:-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:53:24 EDT From: KrodKnid@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall In a message dated 5/24/99 11:50:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jukejointjez@hotmail.com writes: << I am not surprised that those of you who are Christian are upset about Micah comment, but there is truth to what he is saying, if not then why would he say it. >> Hahahahahaha.............*wipes tear from eye*.Yeah right,Micah the paragon of truth.Following your own logic,there must be truth to what the Christians you have encountered have said about you.........if not,why would they say it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:57:20 -0400 From: Larry Davis Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall My conclusion as to why these so-called Christians + others killing peeople different from them "in the name of God" means that there IS NO GOD!!! No one can prove whatever-it-is exists , or doesn't exist, because it's not visible!!! If say "God" was the sun, everyone knows it exists, so there is no conflict. An invisible spirit that no-one can see, being used as someone's reason for evil, just proves my point. Sure, there are evil people, and there are good people, but there IS NO GOD!! The idea of a supreme being was developed by man as a kind of mind control, as a source of guilt trips. If this idea was never developed, and there was never a thing called religion created + developed, we would NEVER have had these problems over the years (wars, killings, basically all evil stuff). What would this world be like without religion?? A much better place indeed, I would imagine. Sorry, I only believe in mother nature, cuz at least it's tangible, in the newspapers + on the weather channel. Peace...Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Tracy Subject: death of the list... Remember Rasputina? We haven't read any mail in two weeks- just deleted it all because nothing anyone has contributed had anything to do with Rasputina, or related issues... If you want to talk about hate and the like, find a list that talks about hate or good and evil- leave it off this list... Don't waste everyone's mailbox space with your bickering and bitching. representing all those who want you to end this, Anatresia & Mop _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:22:39 GMT From: "Rainbow Bright" Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall >people, but there IS NO GOD!! your saying that doesnt make it true. if i say, THERE IS A GOD!!!! does that make it so? well, if i said so, it must be true, because why else would i say it? (LOL some of you need logic classes or something.) unless you know everything possible to know, and have been to the farthest reaches of the universe, you have absolutely no way of knowing whether there is a God lurking back there or not. and just because he has never contacted you personally or you have never felt his presense does not mean that he doesnt exist! i have actually heard GOd talk to me because i know what to listen for, and dont try and tell me that its subconsious or what i want to hear. and i dont care if no one else on this list, this country, or this planet agrees with me, i cannot be convinced otherwise. What would this world be like without >religion?? A much better place indeed, I would imagine. you're right, "religion" itself is nothing special. and it has been abused a lot. but think of it this way--in general, who do you think is more moral and generally a good person, one who believes that he has to do what is right and good and true, and be kind to others, or one who thinks that he creates his own moral system and so whatever he thinks is right? "religon" is a nice way of generalizing those with some kind of faith. true christians do not have "religion" but a personal, best friend relationship with God, who is a pretty useful person to have as a best friend. and those people (and not everyone who _claims_ to be such, like the KKK and such) make a genuine effort not to hate. i wish i could somehow make you shed your prejudices about chrisianity and see that there is some good at the heart of it. Lori _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:27:04 EDT From: LivnDy@aol.com Subject: ill say my bit then STOP IT! hi im Liv and i joined this list about 5 days ago...i was a way for the weekend and i came back to about 20 emails about this christian nonsense! silly people! i have many responses to make so bear with me here. #1. sex is not disgusting. it is a primal human life function like eating and breathing. it is beautiful and sweet and sloppy and wonderful and im sorry you resent it. #2.i love the bickering going on! it is so cute and entertaining! everyone is right and wrong. many christians are hateful and narrow minded and their religion has hindered almost every aspect of life for the world, like technology and medicine and literature. however, no broad generalizations work because there are always exeptions. i personally feel that christianity is a dogmatic, depressing guilty religion and i dont see how it makes people feel good. i would much rather choose a religion tha tis positive and loving. but whatever, all the opinions i have read have been thoroughly interesting. #3. hello?! RASPUTINA mailing list! i want to chat about music so appease me and otheres who are done with this silly arguement. thanks goths.....Liv ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:12:08 EDT From: Nahaliel@aol.com Subject: Relative Rasputina Content (was: eh, i don't know, something about offtopicness) i heart rasputina as much as the next person. but. there's not much new going on. in all seriousness. some novel suggestions for dealing with off topicness: - - get the ball rolling. suggest a rasputina related topic you'd like to hear about. i.e., what's your favorite rasputina lyric? or song? or album? what do you think they've named their babies? do they make their own corsets or do they buy them? - - hit delete. after you read one o.t. post surely you can tell what's relevant by the header. i know i try to differentiate my On Topic from Off Topic posts. i.e., nrc = No Rasputina Content. dur. - - start up another rasputina list. moderate it, be ultradictatorial about subject matter. this has been know to happen. there are some nifty places that will let you do this for free, i.e. Onelist or Egroups. i'm not trying to be snide. really. i apologize for my probable misuse of i.e., i always get i.e. and e.g. confused. or are they interchangeable? but i guess i'd have to sub to deadlanguages-l to find that out. or something. heart, jennifer. http://members.aol.com/nahaliel/ "I will read," she said. "But I don't want you to choose anything that has men inside women, quote-quote, or men entering women." 'I entered her.' 'He entered me.' We're not lobbies or elevators." - --Don DeLillo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:17:03 -0700 From: "Dani.M" Subject: Re: ill say my bit then STOP IT! hello?! HIPICRITE if you are so intent on ending our discussion, witch, by the way, the majority of the list has taken an intrest to, then give us a rasputina related subject, and we'll talk about it. you can't just tell us to stop discussing something but not give us an alternitive - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: ill say my bit then STOP IT! . #3. hello?! RASPUTINA mailing list! i want to chat > about music so appease me and otheres who are done with this silly arguement. > thanks goths.....Liv ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:38:14 EDT From: LivnDy@aol.com Subject: question for ya excuse me but how am i a hypocrite? by the way, juvenile, you spelled it wrong. please explain to me how im a hypocrite . ps:you might be confusing "contradictory" and "hypocritical". i agree that i am contradictory but im far from a hypocrite. - Liv ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 16:51:41 -0700 From: "Dani.M" Subject: Re: question for ya because you yourself write an email about sex, about how you "love the bickering going on!" and find it "cute" and entertaining. you complain about how you get twenty emails off topic, yet you fill everyones mailbox with a message not at all about rasputina. and i'm very sorry you have nothing better to do than worry about my spelling. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 1:38 PM Subject: question for ya > excuse me but how am i a hypocrite? by the way, juvenile, you spelled it > wrong. please explain to me how im a hypocrite . ps:you might be confusing > "contradictory" and "hypocritical". i agree that i am contradictory but im > far from a hypocrite. - Liv > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:09:28 -0700 From: "xoxo jane" Subject: Re: hate.... - --- >>>after all, according to their moral code, hatred is as bad as >murder, which is (guess what?) spoken against in the commandments. ever >heard the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner"? its ok to hate evil, but >the person who does evil does not have to be hated.<<< Exactly. I'm sorry if you read this, Micah, and I know I haven't seen how he explains himself, but when I read that email I started laughing my ass off. I've seen some pretty nonsense comments on many lists, but that almost tops them all. I know PLENTY of people who are not even CLOSE to being christian and hate EVERYTHING. I'm a christian and I can't say I really HATE something or someone. I might say i do, just because it's easier than saying I dislike something or i'm just angry at that time and feel like i hate something. It's pretty damn hard just to downright HATE something or someone, I think. ~lithia ^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^ "Don't drink the lithia water," -Moonit http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/XOXOJANE A Rasputina fansite. ALL THE KIDS LOVE CELLO ROCK *There has never been a better time for Neo-Chamber Grunge.* ^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^ Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:25:34 -0400 From: Larry Davis Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall Um, the so-called idea or concept known as "God" can NOT be proven scientifically because it DOESN'T EXIST!! I KNOW there is more out there than meets the eye, like the universe, solar system, other galaxies, etc, but man CREATED the idea of "God" as a source of mind control!! It's all meant to keep people in line, because humans make mistakes, and the idea of "God" as ever perfect is utter BULLSHIT!! There IS NOBODY perfect!! Mother nature is more powerful than us humans, but she's not perfect, NOTHING IS!! We are the highest life form!! Yes, soundwaves come together to make music, BUT we can hear music, unless we're deaf!! Same with vision!! But, there is NO GOD because it doesn't EXIST within the human EYE or EAR!! If you can't SEE it or HEAR it, it DOESN'T EXIST!!! Um, most wars were caused because of religious differences, not because of mother nature, or that certain people are evil (although some are!!) As I said before, GOD does NOT exist because if it did, and everyone knew it, what it looked like, if it took a tangible form, then everyone would agree, and there would be no conflict!! Other life forms don't have religion, and that's how it should be!! I believe in mother nature because it exists, it's tangible. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!....Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:26:38 -0400 From: Larry Davis Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall Yes I was, and I'm sorry to say, but they ARE the real Christians, the evil majority, they dominate. Yes, I do think they support this. Ever hear of the right-wingers, those who try + shove so-called "family values" down everybody's throat, those who try + control the government, those who try + picket Marilyn Manson concerts, who try + ban certain CDs from being sold in record stores, because it opposes their points of view. Yup, those are the real Christians, who are dead-on EVIL!!! They kind of do force you to go to church, and I feel REALLY bad for those kids who are born into strict Christian families, as they are forced to believe what their parents believe, otherwise they are disowned!! If those kids are gay?? They kill themselves!! Yes, I DO think blame Christians for thinking their way is the only way, cuz it's fucked-up + closed-minded!! Not only that, they are DEAD WRONG!!! BTW Lori, I was not raised Christian, I was raised JEWISH!! I went to temple, I've been bar-mitzvahed, etc. I came to my worldviews when I was 15, and now I'm 31. Believe me, MANY people see my side of things, and more are doing so, especially those who are seeing the truth, that there is NO SUCH THING as GOD!! It's all cock + bullshit!! When you ask me to open up to a concept which does not exist, it sounds like you're trying to recruit people into the fucked-up Christian faith, which is really a widely-accepted cult, you sound like you're out to brainwash people!! You might as well have a leader, like that guy Do, who's followers killed themselves!! Why don't YOU open up to the possibility that YOUR so-called religion is a fallacy, that you were misled your whole life, that the concept called "GOD" is in-fact NON-EXISTENT?? Hey, you might learn something and realize your whole life is false!! Just like the "Truman Show" where Jim Carrey realizes his whole life is a lie!! That's EXACTLY how I felt when I was 15. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:43:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Carmilla Subject: Actual Band-related Question... Ok.Convergence.I heard something about the first vote bing scrapped.Is this true,or just a rumor?Have they decided on a place?Is Rasputina definately going to be there? === ...Parting is all we know of heaven and all we need of hell. - -Emily Dickinson ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~**~*~*~ IM:Wyldrose3;ICQ#: 37458937 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:48:52 EDT From: OneirosV@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall In a message dated 5/24/99 11:04:36 AM Central Daylight Time, Larry.Davis@ny.ddbn.com writes: > I also agree. It seems that you guys are walking blind, when it comes to > the truths about the truly evil things many Christians do "in the name of > God". Not only that, the Church is a fucking, walking guilt trip. They try > + shove their beliefs down your throats, and it seems that if you don't > accept their ways, they say you're going to hell. True, isn't it?? No it's not. No one associated with any church i know has ever told me i'm going to hell. I've never had a guilt trip laid on me by any religion. The church i used to belong to taught that there is a way in life, that you decide, that is best for you. Ideally this path would lead to goodness and salvation, but people aren't perfect, and that everyone strays (the basic "we're all sinners" thing), but if you believe in what you do, and you don't go about being terrible toward your fellow human being, and think before you do, then you're basically doing the right thing. I don't see the point in saying people are blind for denying what christians have done. I know it's happened. The crusades were a tragedy. The kkk is evil and abhorrant. But, damn, if i condemned every group that had a black mark on its record, i'd hate all germans for what hitler did, and i'd hate all whites for the slavery of the past and for what they did to the native americans, and i'd hate all men for keeping women from being equal. But then i'd have to hate a lot of innocent people, including myself. There are no absolutes, and when you realize that, maybe you'll be a little more open-minded.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 01:56:33 GMT From: "Rainbow Bright" Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall >Um, the so-called idea or concept known as "God" can NOT be proven >scientifically because it DOESN'T EXIST!! umm, has anyone else noticed that Larry here gets repetitive? point made earlier that just because you think that, and no matter how often you say it in capitals with exclamation points, that does not make it true? dur. If you can't SEE it or HEAR it, it >DOESN'T EXIST!!! sorry, but i laugh at you now. i lack the cruelty to point out how stupid you really are. ~~L _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 20:48:27 EDT From: LivnDy@aol.com Subject: for larry i have to disagree with your statement that if we can't touch smell or hear something it isnt there. I basically agree with your ideas on "god" but "god" to me is the entire concept that there are things people dont know. religion is an excuse for what humans are too primitive and frigtened of to realize. eventually people, human beings, will be able to see and hear what now we don't know is existent. but humans are not perfectable, no matter how much we try to shut off our impulses and be "close to god" and "sin free". a note to the girl who was heckling me earlier: i am going to get into this conversation so you can try noy=t to be so nasty next time you send a message directed at me.thanks.-Liv "until the 20th centurey , reality was everything humans could touch, smell see, and hear. Recently, humans discovered that what they could touch smell see and hear is less than one millionth of reality."-Incubus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 18:03:35 -0700 From: "xoxo jane" Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall Well, I guess there really are people who have to see (or hear in this case) it to believe it. whatever you want to believe is none of my business, but i'm terribly sorry to say that most of your email made me laugh....a lot. ~lithia - --- ^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^ "Don't drink the lithia water," -Moonit http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/XOXOJANE A Rasputina fansite. ALL THE KIDS LOVE CELLO ROCK *There has never been a better time for Neo-Chamber Grunge.* ^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^ On Mon, 24 May 1999 20:25:34 Larry Davis wrote: >Um, the so-called idea or concept known as "God" can NOT be proven >scientifically because it DOESN'T EXIST!! I KNOW there is more out there >than meets the eye, like the universe, solar system, other galaxies, etc, >but man CREATED the idea of "God" as a source of mind control!! It's all >meant to keep people in line, because humans make mistakes, and the idea of >"God" as ever perfect is utter BULLSHIT!! There IS NOBODY perfect!! Mother >nature is more powerful than us humans, but she's not perfect, NOTHING IS!! >We are the highest life form!! >Yes, soundwaves come together to make music, BUT we can hear music, unless >we're deaf!! Same with vision!! But, there is NO GOD because it doesn't >EXIST within the human EYE or EAR!! If you can't SEE it or HEAR it, it >DOESN'T EXIST!!! Um, most wars were caused because of religious >differences, not because of mother nature, or that certain people are evil >(although some are!!) As I said before, GOD does NOT exist because if it >did, and everyone knew it, what it looked like, if it took a tangible form, >then everyone would agree, and there would be no conflict!! Other life >forms don't have religion, and that's how it should be!! I believe in >mother nature because it exists, it's tangible. > > WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!....Larry > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 19:38:54, -0500 From: FifthDreamToday@prodigy.com (MORPHEUS FIVE) Subject: RE: In defense of Micah Westfall >>>>>Um, the so-called idea or concept known as "God" can NOT be proven scientifically because it DOESN'T EXIST!!>>>>> There's a basic philisophy that in science, nothing can be PROVEN *NOT* to exist... so there goes your whole line of resoning... Where'd you get your information? I've got some books and know a lot of people that says God does exist. I was just wondering if you were an authority; if you had some special information that others weren't privy to... >>>>> I KNOW there is more out there than meets the eye, like the universe, solar system, other galaxies, etc, but man CREATED the idea of "God" as a source of mind control!! >>>>> Where'd you hear this? I bet they were just as credible as any other mortal who might tell you God is real. >>>>> It's all meant to keep people in line, because humans make mistakes, and the idea of "God" as ever perfect is utter BULLSHIT!! There IS NOBODY perfect!! Mother nature is more powerful than us humans, but she's not perfect, NOTHING IS!! We are the highest life form!! >>>>> Bitter, are we? >>>>> But, there is NO GOD because it doesn't EXIST within the human EYE or EAR!! If you can't SEE it or HEAR it, it DOESN'T EXIST!!!>>>>> I don't see or hear time, but it exists. Same with love, happiness, anger, or bitterness. It's non-tactile, but it's there. I'd kill myself if i had to see/hear something in order for it to exist. Hell, if that were the case, i wouldn't believe in Canada, Albert Einstein or Aardvarks; I've never seen 'em with my own eyes. >>>>> WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!...>>>>> You first. :) ____ - -FifthDream ...all around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone; we must speak of other matters: you can be me when i'm gone..... http://pages.prodigy.com/FifthDream/ featuring Switchblade Symphony, the Cure, NIN, Prick, Poppy Z. Brite, Vampyres. u can be all goth some of the time, or some goth all of the time, but u can't be all goth all of the time... i sometimes even tried to catch her, but never even caught her name... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 17:42:31 -0700 From: "xoxo jane" Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall - --- i'm christian, i'm not mad at anyone on this list for christian-bashing, and i understand what you're saying. all i'm saying is that in my experience with christians, few to none of them fit the description you're talking about. there are many people who have done some horrible things and used christianity as an excuse. take the spanish treatment towards the indians for instance. they killed millions of them as they were invading mexico, forced them into slavery and tried to force them into catholicism. many people who do things like that may not even be catholic or christian at all, just use god as an excuse to do horrible things. i don't know if this has anything to do with your email, but i think it might deal with something someone said previously :) ~lithia ^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^ "Don't drink the lithia water," -Moonit http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/XOXOJANE A Rasputina fansite. ALL THE KIDS LOVE CELLO ROCK *There has never been a better time for Neo-Chamber Grunge.* ^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^^@^ On Mon, 24 May 1999 08:46:38 Burn Mellie wrote: > > I am not surprised that those of you who are Christian are upset about >Micah comment, but there is truth to what he is saying, if not then why >would he say it. In my encounters with many Christians I have found them >disrespectful and hateful towards me because of my beliefs. Only once has a >Christian said to me "I understand and that's cool!" Groups of people will >always be looked at as groups of people. Don't get mad when people >generalize because a majority of people aren't like you. Furthermore, if >numbers of people are saying that Christians are hateful, then instead of >complaining you should try to change something. Prove everyone else wrong. > > Ciao > Michelle > > > > >"Astride of a grave and a difficult birth. Down in the hole, >lingeringly, the grave digger puts on the foreceps." > - Samuel Beckett > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:39:15 EDT From: OneirosV@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall In a message dated 5/24/99 10:50:41 AM Central Daylight Time, jukejointjez@hotmail.com writes: > Furthermore, if > numbers of people are saying that Christians are hateful, then instead of > complaining you should try to change something. Prove everyone else wrong. I do every day, by not being hateful or bigotted toward people. That's my part and all that i'm responsible for. Maybe when you people say "Christian" you perhaps mean "Fanatical Christian"? The way you anti-christians are going on about "Christians hate everyone!", it'd sound just like me going "All you Rasputina fans are christian haters! ever since i got on this list, they've done nothing but bash religion!", but since i know of at least one person on this list who isn't, i know that it's just not true. There are exceptions to every rule, and in this case, Christians being hate-mongers isn't even a rule.. Think before you speak... this argument is really ridiculous... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:14:51 EDT From: ImAZeroSP@aol.com Subject: my lovely goths! hey there my little Raspy fans...! it is I, the wonderful Cara. I havent been reading any posts that have anything to do with arguing... its a waste of time.... i have bigger problems to deal with than online fights with people who live 2000 miles away.... what did i do today? i went to the mall and saw lots of hot punker guys... yumm... i went to Q101's Jamboree on Saturday... i saw Hole and Offspring and Moshed to Local H and saw Blink182 and met Amir, Bobby, and Ryan from Orgy, as well as Mark from Blink 182 and James VanOsdol from Q101!! yay me!! about the Christian haters/Christians being haters... i myself was baptised catholicbut do not practice any religion... i also do not believe in god. i have noticed that Christian FANATICS are mean and rude and closed minded... but not just Christians. Regular old day-to-day Christians dont hold up "AIDS CURES HOMOSEXUALS" signs at Matthew Shepard's Funeral if you know what i mean.... All of my friends are Christians and they find nothing wrong with people the Bilble find morally wrong.. maybe we should all just get off this topic and talk about less irritating things.... new topic: PEOPLE WHO DISS YOUR FAVOURITE BANDS... if i hear one more person say "smashing Pumpkins suck" Im gonna kick them in the face.... heehee... luv and pumpkins to all of you, cara ps- lets get off this stupid subject of whatever you people are fighting about... every 5 minutes i have new mail from you guys about this stupid subject.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 22:10:17 EDT From: OneirosV@aol.com Subject: Re: Actual Band-related Question... In a message dated 5/24/99 8:45:09 PM Central Daylight Time, contessa_carmilla@yahoo.com writes: > Ok.Convergence.I heard something about the first vote > bing scrapped.Is this true,or just a rumor?Have they > decided on a place?Is Rasputina definately going to be > there? It was scrapped, and the vote was re-taken. I believe the results are out tomorrow.... I don't see how Rasputina could be guaranteed to be there, but that's the plan. ;) _____ - -FifthDream ...all around me darkness gathers, fading is the sun that shone; we must speak of other matters: you can be me when i'm gone..... Fifth Dream Today http://pages.prodigy.com/FifthDream/ featuring Switchblade Symphony, the Cure, NIN, Prick, Poppy Z. Brite, Vampyres, and Sifl & Olly. You can be all Goth some of the time, or some Goth all of the time, but you can't be all Goth all of the time... i sometimes even tried to catch her, but never even caught her name... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 21:11:28 -0700 From: "posby" Subject: Re: Actual Band-related Question... >In a message dated 5/24/99 8:45:09 PM Central Daylight Time, >contessa_carmilla@yahoo.com writes: > >> Ok.Convergence.I heard something about the first vote >> bing scrapped.Is this true,or just a rumor?Have they >> decided on a place?Is Rasputina definately going to be >> there? > >It was scrapped, and the vote was re-taken. I believe the results are out >tomorrow.... I don't see how Rasputina could be guaranteed to be there, but >that's the plan. ;) > as i understand it (being an old-timer to this convergence thingy) New York did the low of the low, and listed a whole bunch of bands they were _thinking_ of getting, or who had expressed interest in possibly playing. none of which were _ever_ confirmed. - -Posbina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 01:28:36 EDT From: DaliAdore@aol.com Subject: Re: In defense of Micah Westfall In a message dated 5/24/99 8:50:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jukejointjez@hotmail.com writes: << but there is truth to what he is saying, if not then why would he say it >> that has no logical backing whatsoever... i can think of a lot of things that are outrageous and not true and still say it just because i feel like it... like "all black people are niggers" just because i can say that doesn't mean it's true like what you're saying.... << In my encounters with many Christians I have found them disrespectful and hateful towards me because of my beliefs. Only once has a Christian said to me "I understand and that's cool!" >> you obviously just haven't been around the right christians because although many are narrowminded... many, especially of this generation (as in teens or twenties) do practice tolerance... i know for a fact that there are enough christians out there today with liberal tendencies to make such "sweeping generalizations" impractical... it's like saying "all jewish people work at textile factories" or "all jews live in new york city" or something.... i mean... they did way back when but it's totally irrelevent in this day and age... everybody is thinking of KKK or Christian Coalition bastards when they think of a christian these days (atheists and others unsympathetic towards the christian cause usually) but that makes up really a SMALL percentage of the ACTUAL christian population... so it's like stop looking in the past with what christians have done and look at what they're doing... you'll see many are practicing tolerance... drew ------------------------------ End of goths-digest V3 #108 ***************************