From: owner-goths-digest@smoe.org (goths-digest) To: goths-digest@smoe.org Subject: goths-digest V3 #81 Reply-To: goths@smoe.org Sender: owner-goths-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-goths-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk goths-digest Saturday, April 24 1999 Volume 03 : Number 081 Today's Subjects: ----------------- "goth", goths, and more goth [ImAZeroSP@aol.com] [none] ["Shayna Nova" ] back on the subject of Rasputina ["Shayna Nova" ] RE: "goth", goths, and more goth [Larry Davis ] RE: Shock rock vs authorities/Alice Cooper [Larry Davis ] Fwd: re: "goth", goths, and more goth [Nahaliel@aol.com] Stupid Question [Carmilla ] USAToday: Goths [Chris L Smith ] Re: goths-digest V3 #80 [Fury318@aol.com] A long time ago.. shirt designs. [Channy ] Re: (NRC): goths blamed from CO shootings [TheitGrl@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:33:31 EDT From: ImAZeroSP@aol.com Subject: "goth", goths, and more goth :::raises hand::: i have a question.... if you listen to manson and semi-consider yourself "goth", are you a poseur? i mean, i hear people all the time dissing Manson and stuff, and people seem to think that if you listen to him and you consider yourself got then your a poseur. The same thing if you shop at Hot topic. Well, i listen to Marilyn Manson and i semi-consider myself goth, mainly because people tell me i am. I shop at hot topic. I buy my Jonny the Homocidal Maniac comics there, as well as jewlery and fun extras. Does this make me a poseur? I listen to manson because he has really good points, his music rawks, and hes a brilliant person, even if you guys dont want to admit it. I was at their concert, which was filled with Goths, semi-goths, "freaks" (i hate that word), slut chicks, metal heads, alterna-boys/chicks, and normal old people and kids (along with a bunch of real life poseurs who i knew, that 6 months ago were listening to Puffy and trendie as hell). Does that mean everyone there are poseurs....? Im just very confused on this subject... Other bands I listen to are: My first and foremost favourite: The Smashing Pumpkins. Rasputina Hole Nine Inch Nails Marilyn Manson Tori Amos Stabbing Westward Jack off Jill Catherine Fulflej Garbage Souls About the whole Hot Topic thing... where else are some of us supposed to shop? I hate when people say stuff about that store... its like, what? am i suppossed to feel ashamed to shop there? I could drive for 40 mins every saturday to the north side of chicago and shop at the Alley and Medusa's Circle, but how am i suppossd to get there? i cant drive! Im sick and tired of people saying that people who shop at hot topic and listen to manson are not goth.... or are poseurs im not trying to prove my "gothliness" or anything, because i think that i dotn look goth. For one, i cant buy clothes from "goth" stores because they wouldn't fit me (im a big girl). so, everyday im wearing a SP or Manson shirt, dark makeup, blue or black jeans, boots or maryjanes, and my hair is dyed black. and i wear 4 necklaces and a choker or two a day.... does that make me goth? compared to everyone else in my school, i am a Goth Queen. i dont even know what im tlaking about... i jsut think that its unfair for people to look down on those who shop at hot topic and listen to manson. i dunno... i know you all know this: and another thing, those CO loser kids WERE NOT GOTH! they were metalheads... tehy listened to rammstein and metallica! they were Neo-nazies who spoke fluent german and killed people on Hitlers birthday. They killed Jocks (which make the jock-boys at my school weary of me now) and "people of colour"... I HATE RACIST JERKS LIKE THAT. they should all die.... Goths accept people, not hate them, because goths are deep thinkers who know about injustices of the world.... The phuckin media needs to get it thru their head.... im just glad no one blamed this on Marilyn Manson.... They seem to be the scapegoat for everything now'a'days.... grrr im mad. sorry for my long annoying letter.... sorry for my comlaining.... sorry for me not making sense.... sorry for my whole letter.... im just angry.... so am i a poseur? should i stop shopping at hot topic? should i stop listening to manson? i dont think so.... the mistress of Mellon Collie (as in the Pumpkins album... not some spooky 'goth' thing...) Cara - ------- on the topic of racist neo-nazies.... my jerk friend Keith Johnson (dez_wanna_be@hotmail.com) went under my screenname yesterday into one of the chat rooms about the CO school shooting and said the words "f**king Fa*got" and "Ni***r lover"... and i got reported with a TOS violation.... i was so upset that he did this.... i do not talk like this, and neither does he and i dont understand why he did it... it jsut got me so mad.... my mom like, talked to him and his mom... im so mad at him.... I just couldnt beleive that he would do that under my screename.... I Dont want peple to think im some neo-nazi, especially not in a school-shooting room.... i dont know why im telling you this.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:22:41 PDT From: "Shayna Nova" Subject: [none] This is from the Yahoo Goth-Industrial message board: >Now I am truly discusted >by: Engelfyre (29/F/South Lake Tahoe) > >And just when I think the crap can't get any thicker.... > >NEWS FLASH: Lawmaker Says Marilyn Manson Puts >Fans Under Spell > >Chris Nelson > >Marilyn Manson had fans as young as 12 "under his control" in a >Michigan arena Wednesday, according to a state legislator who went >to the show to research the shock-rocker. > >State Sen. Dale Shugars said he was surrounded by "very normal >kids" who may still be feeling the effects of the show and not even >know it. "I think there's something going on that you can't see from >the outside," he said. > >Don't people who read this just have to stand up and say BULLSHIT!! - -shayna _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:28:31 PDT From: "Shayna Nova" Subject: back on the subject of Rasputina Not being very well educated in music theory or composition or anything, I'm not sure what this is, and I may be imagining things. But has anyone else noticed a simalarity between Watch TV, Manson's "Man that you fear" and Lou Reed's "Satellite of Love"? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:41:44 -0400 From: Larry Davis Subject: RE: "goth", goths, and more goth OK, here's my two cents on the killings + the local cops blaming it on the "goths", and being a poseur. First off, the shootings. I TOTALLY understand why they did it, but it was still wrong, kinda like that saying two wrongs don't make a right. I was picked on in junior high, but not really at all in high school. Kids at the JH stage are still immature and can be REALLY cruel, and they don't realize the damage they can cause. It seems their peers + parents teach them to knock down anything or anybody that's the least bit different. Plus they have ego problems, as they want to look cool, and they think by hurting others, they will seem bigger + better. Alas, that is not the case. As they grow older, they realize you can be different and still be cool. I guess in my town, kids in my high school realized this earlier, and cooled off, and became OK. Some even went out of their way to do me favors or acted extra cool or nice, to make up for their many years of harshness to me. Plus, it helped that I've had friends throughout high school. I wasn't alone. Believe it or not, Mariah Carey went to my high school, so I know what she was like, and I had a SERIOUS crush on her then (I'm 3 years older than her), but that's besides the point. Now for the cops blaming it on the "goths". It's just their way of generalizing, and they felt they had to pick some sort of easy target, and since Marilyn Manson is a controversial figure, who pisses parents off, who questions authority, and attracts hordes of goth-like kids + outcasts and misfits, MM was picked as the sole target, just like 80s suicides being blamed on Ozzy, Judas Priest, and heavy metal in general. I just laugh, but also feel sorry for these kids (and the artists being targeted) because these authorities use copouts and don't do the work + research + look below the surface to find the real reasons behind it all. PLUS, the artists + kids just look bad afterwards because the parents look up to these cops and want answers. If they had the real TRUTH, people like MM, and goth-like kids won't get the majority of these troubles. It makes me mad!! Now, Cara, you are no poseur. You listen to MM because, like me, you think he's a brilliant person, he speaks the truth about society, his music rocks, etc, etc, etc. Poseurs listen to his music, not because they truly believe in it, but because "Oh, he's popular + is on MTV, and he looks cool. Let's jump on the Marilyn Manson bandwagon." So, some of those people at the MM show, not all, are poseurs, probably those who were Puff Daddy fans 6 months ago. Some put down MM, and say that fans of MM are poseurs and not real goths BECAUSE MM is huge, that's all. At least MM got popular for all the right reasons. Here's food for thought. What if Rasputina got all popular, on the level of MM?? Would those same people call Raspy + fans like us not real goths then?? I say probably. It's the mentality of destroying an artist when he/she/they reach the top, and that attitude SUCKS!! I say, stick with the artist thru thick and thin, unless maybe if they turn into a jerk, and turn off their core audience. Also, no problem with Hot Topic. Same reason. It's a popular store. Keep going, stand your ground!! And the fact that you don't have a license gives you ample reason to keep going there. Not everyone has a license, I didn't get mine till I was 25!! OK, after scrolling down, I realized those CO kids are losers. They should die. ANYBODY neo-Nazi has to die. (I'm born Jewish, but that's besides the point.) If there's one thing positive out of this, it's that jocks are wary of you and don't pick on you anymore. I always considered jocks, in general, to be shallow losers anyway. Anyways, at least they didn't blame it all on Rammstein, because I love Rammstein, and I don't go around killing people!! Those loser kids were just losers. Lastly, DROP your jerk friend, Keith Johnson!! What an ASSHOLE to use your screenname and make racist comments!! WHAT WAS HE THINKING??!!?? If that's his way of being funny, he needs help, like ASAP!! You're a good person, Cara, and you stand up for what's right. You brought up some valid points too, and have perfect reason to be confused. Don't change. I just wish the authorities would change their tune, and work harder on finding out the real truth about things. Later... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:00:43 -0400 From: Larry Davis Subject: RE: Shock rock vs authorities/Alice Cooper Ya know, legislators like that JERK Dale Shugars, REALLY piss me off, but yet at the same time statements like MM putting spells on kids as young as 12 just crack me up at their ridiculousness!! What gets me is, weren't there performers when he was 12 that authorities found controversial?? Doesn't he realize that kids LIKE music that pisses off authorities + parents?? The more controversial the better?? This is no different than when people like Ozzy, Judas Priest, and other heavy metal artists in the 80s were taken to court and NOT charged. Same thing with the ORIGINAL goth/shock rocker, Alice Cooper, still going strong after 30 YEARS!! Check out his new 4CD box set on Warner Archives/Rhino, called "The Life + Crimes Of Alice Cooper" for the real source of Goth/shock rock!! The packaging is waaay cool too. His music still has its shock value, and still sounds potent + sharp, even after all this time. PLUS, Alice STILL pisses off authorities, and scares them too!! Maybe MM will be around as long as Alice has. We'll see. Later...Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:40:07 EDT From: Nahaliel@aol.com Subject: Re: (NRC): goths blamed from CO shootings this isn't an attack on micah. his opinions are as valid as anyone's, and he seems more sincere in them than so many people who just decided to pick a side.. i cc'd my reply to the list because it seems like a lot of people share his views about it. i'm not trying to be confrontational. i'd only like for people to consider other things. > | almost everyone experiences things like this. and almost everyone seems > to > | feel as if they were the only people in the history of the world to be > | treated as outcasts. > > No no. If this were true, what about the popular kids that caused it all? > you don't think that everyone experiences being picked on to some degree? what it boils down to is that in the twisted little bubble of high school society, everyone gives *someone* a hard time at some point, some more than others, in order to keep their places in the h.s. social stratus. and everyone has their places, whether you admit it or not, whether you like it or not. there are always the trademark freaks, hippies, skaters, stoners, hardcore kids, jocks, whatever they're calling them, it's out there. they *all* in general tend to shut out those who aren't like them superficially. well..except maybe the hippies :x but anyway, the need to belong to a group is a well known time tested psych 101 snippet of factdom: either an adolescent come to see themself as unique and integrated, with an ideology, or become confused, leading to another stage where they can either learn to deal deal with other people or not. obviously this has a huge impact on who you are and who you become. these kids just couldn't handle their lives. if anything, pity them for that, and not because you identify with them. > | the treatment of atheletes has nothing to do with it. it's an excuse. if > such > | things do continue to happen, it will be because as the educational > system > | treats its students like numbers, and is too happy to classify students > | rather than give them the attention they deserve. or because the schools > are > | so overcrowded you can't help but be faceless > > > I think this is a geographic issue because I am sure that my hs experience > was far different from yours. I think everyone's is. i don't know how > large the CO school is, but take mine for example, small all american the colorado school was apparently big, white and upper middle class. thus my comment about facelessness. > school with a church built on the back graduating about 60 kids a year. If > one considers god to be anything other than a white santa clause type man > in the sky, everyone (teachers, students,faculty, etc...) treats like you > were the devil. I got in deep trouble once for questioning the reasoning > on skipping the chapter in the science book on eveloution. > you're right, i had a different set of adversaries altogether. demographically speaking: my high school was in a mid-sized new jersey town, the population of the middle class public high school was roughly 50% black, 25% hispanic, and 25% white. my freshman class had about 450 people in it, and i can't remember how many actually graduated. it was significantly less, with a few deaths and countless pregnancies and dropouts. anyway. to get more specific within my own experience, i was a white girl who also carried the god-awful stigma of being bright, as well as (and as much as i loathe the term i can't think of any other right now) one of the school's tiny number of "freaks," who i couldn't be bothered to befriend, and nor would they befriend me. anyway, having been a minority in a minority in another minority, i know what it is like to feel like an outsider, i know what it's like to be feared and also to be afraid to go to school some mornings. as lonely and as horrible as that felt a lot of the time, it was over before i knew it. but hey, i had a bad science experience too ;) ..i did get very hostile treatment after reading a statement in sophomore biology that i thought the bible was a bunch of very interestingly crafted moral tales and not the literal word of god. my forward thinking public school hired a born again christian for a biology teacher, go figure. i want to shake someone and say hello, you do get through it and things get better and if you want to kill yourself you should have that right but you don't go around throwing little things like other people's destinies out the window. a throwback from my Reformed Hippie Mother: think positively and about good karma and all that. it's not all gloomglamdoom. anyway. i really really hate TLC's Scrub song. heart, jennifer http://members.aol.com/nahaliel/ "Time provides the rope, but love will tie the slipknot and I will be the chair you kick away." -The Magnetic Fields ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:44:52 EDT From: Frknstein9@aol.com Subject: Rasputina....BROKEN UP?? Hi! Well, I'm sad to say, that Julia HAS left Rasputina. How do I know this? Well, my friend, who is a musician himself, was playing at a club that Julia's other project was playing at also. He asked her if she actually did leave (I had told him about what I heard via this mailing list) and she confirmed it. She said something like, "Ever since Agniezska left, I feel like Rasputina is going no where...." or something along those lines. I'm sure I hold the same opinion as you when I say I hope she changes her mind, or will at least play a few random shows every once in a while. What a sad, sad thing........ ***heather*** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:53:35 EDT From: Nahaliel@aol.com Subject: [goths -- nrc]: while i'm on the subject http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/digest/daily/april99/suspects21.htm probably the most ridiculously misinformed piece of yellow journalism i've read in a long time. a lot of hogwash about the goth subculture and hitler's birthday. kind of funny after you get over the inital indignation at becoming synonomous with psychopaths and derelicts. heart, jennifer http://members.aol.com/nahaliel/ "Time provides the rope, but love will tie the slipknot and I will be the chair you kick away." -The Magnetic Fields ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:20:38 EDT From: ImAZeroSP@aol.com Subject: thanx to ya all.... scapegoats (oldskool) thanx to all of you that replied to my post.... about the whole MM, Judas priest, Ozzy, black sabbath being blamed for EVERYTHING in the world, lets not forget some other scapegoats.... The Beatles i wasnt alive when they were big... or even when John Lennon died, but they were blamed for stuff too! "No, the Devil's music! NOOOO! Rock is Evil! Burn Records! aaauugghh!!!" heheehee... Elvis Presley Shaking your hips is morally wrong and punishable. whateva... 60s music (hippy stuff) this music made people do drugs and think for themselves once again, wrong and punishable... senators and scared mothers run and hide... All Heavy Metal Hair bands of the 80s... okay, well.... I see how like, having videos and songs about chicks in bikinis can be offensive and "wrong" (cough...David Lee Roth...cough)... but c'mon, it wasn't the downfall of 80s civilization... beginning of banned concerts Grunge listening to this music makes you a slacker and drug addict. Umm... NO.... Now we can get a little more specific: Marilyn Manson listening to his music makes you commit suicide, take drugs, hate police, have lots of sex, become vampires, kill your parents, rape your sisters, worship satan, and DRESS IN BLACK! NOOOO! heehee.... Smashing Pumpkins you guys hear when Sam Menzie molested and killed the little boy who was selling stuff for a fund raiser? yeah, he was my on-line buddy, XSPACEBOY1.... i won his 100 question smashing pumpkins quiz, but i didnt get my prize because he caught... yeah, well NY Time blamed his antics on my beloved Smashing Pumpkins' lyrics.... whatever.... Im sure we can all think of lots more bands/genres of music that make people complete jerks and kill thier dogs and stuff.... gggrrrr.... pisses me off.... i hate people like that.... the musics not to blame, the people who kill their friends are.... im sorry for more of my useless rambles.... once again im confused... umm.. yeah.... just put up with me... im maddish... cya all later, Desperate and Displeased, Cara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:01:53 -0400 From: MICAH WESTFALL Subject: [none] two things: 1. will rasputina go under fire with their song trenchmouth? 2. i was reading the paper this evening and i think everyone is running scared. kids are being suspended from all of the local schools for little things such as wearing the black as they always do to kids piggybacking the occurance and theatening other students. @/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@/*#$%$#*\@ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:11:29 EDT From: Nahaliel@aol.com Subject: Fwd: re: "goth", goths, and more goth - --part1_88026de6.24526631_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i typed "smoe.oog," holy crap. :D - --part1_88026de6.24526631_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Nahaliel@aol.com From: Nahaliel@aol.com Full-name: Nahaliel Message-ID: <88026de6.2452654d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:07:41 EDT Subject: Re: "goth", goths, and more goth To: ImAZeroSP@aol.com CC: goths@smoe.oog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: Nahaliel@aol.com cara says: > if you listen to manson and semi-consider yourself "goth", are you a poseur? > i mean, i hear people all the time dissing Manson and stuff, and people seem > > to think that if you listen to him and you consider yourself got then your a > poseur. The same thing if you shop at Hot topic. > Well, i listen to Marilyn Manson and i semi-consider myself goth, mainly > because people tell me i am. I shop at hot topic. I buy my Jonny the > Homocidal Maniac comics there, as well as jewlery and fun extras. Does this > make me a poseur? > my take on the whole poseur issue is: there is absolutely no point worrying about it, what's important is what you consider yourself. but if one wants to get petty, what especially makes a person a poseur is when they are very quick to call other people poseurs. the more defensive, the guiltier they are. > I listen to manson because he has really good points, his music rawks, and > hes a brilliant person, even if you guys dont want to admit it. I was at it's not a matter of admitting anything. it's a matter of personal taste. i think his brilliance extends as far as his ability to project the image his public wants. > dotn look goth. For one, i cant buy clothes from "goth" stores because they > > wouldn't fit me (im a big girl). you could get them custom made. lots of people do that. or god forbid one gets the chutzpah to go into a department store or, oy vey, the Gap or Express or Nordstrom, and look for black clothes. you can find lots of pretty things to work with on the clearance racks. make a big trip to the mall post prom season, you can get a lot of beautiful gothily wearable dresses, most of which i find tend to run in the bigger or smaller sizes. > i jsut think that its unfair for people to look down on those who shop at > hot > topic and listen to manson. and i think it's unfair to get snickered at for admitting one shops at the Gap. as long as your clothes look good and are made well, why should anyone care where one shops? > colour"... I HATE RACIST JERKS LIKE THAT. they should all die.... Goths > accept people, not hate them, because goths are deep thinkers who know about > > injustices of the world.... The phuckin media needs to get it thru their > head.... im just glad no one blamed this on Marilyn Manson.... They seem to saying that you think racist jerks "should all die" is hardly a deep statement. and goths are not as a whole deep thinkers, that's way too broad of a generalization. we have more than our fair share of shallow illiterates. i shop at the Gap i like indiepop Nordstrom has the best shoe department ever i save words like brilliant for Beethoven and Shakespeare and Virginia Woolf and Blixa Bargeld i believe in karma i don't like Switchblade Symphony i thought Hellraiser was the funniest movie in the world i really really like shoegaze i have been known to shop at Hot Topic my best friends in the world are about as goth as Felicity and Ween makes me laugh heart, jennifer http://members.aol.com/nahaliel/ "Time provides the rope, but love will tie the slipknot and I will be the chair you kick away." -The Magnetic Fields - --part1_88026de6.24526631_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:33:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Carmilla Subject: Stupid Question Posuer?! Please define! Sorry :) === IM:wyldrose3,VxClaudiaV ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* Say you'll share with me one love,one lifetime.Lead me,save me from my solitude.Say you want me with you,here beside you.Anywhere you go,let me go too.That's all I ask of you... ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:16:36 EDT From: Chris L Smith Subject: USAToday: Goths Hi all- I'm not sure if anyone saw the article on the front page of USAToday's Life section the day after the shooting, but it's the best 'Goth' definition/article I've seen in a while. It was only mildly sterotypical, but it shot down those who called the Trenchcoat boys 'Goth.' They classified Goths as (paraphrased) 'deeply spiritual people very much in touch with their emotions' - or something to that effect. If anyone else saw it, maybe you could summarize it better than I have. I just found it neat that such a widespread newspaper could demonstrate the clear difference between 'Goth' and those two psychos. Chris ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:05:08 EDT From: Fury318@aol.com Subject: Re: goths-digest V3 #80 The way I see it if two guys hate everyone because everyone teased them and they decided to commit suicide to escape all of the crap, then what a better way than to go out guns blazing and leave behind a huge news story so that everyone they didn't kill will NEVER forget......... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:49:00 -0700 From: Channy Subject: A long time ago.. shirt designs. Hey everyone.. I was recently going through some old emails from all you guys, and I found some from when we were talking about list shirts, and Rasputina shirts in general. Well, some people were talking about Rasputina logos that they had made.. and I was wondering, if these people are still around, I'd really like to see the designs! So if they're online anywhere, or if they have them scanned, let me know, I'd love to see them. Thanks, Eva ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 23:59:21 EDT From: TheitGrl@aol.com Subject: Re: (NRC): goths blamed from CO shootings In a message dated 99-04-22 12:33:31 EDT, jukejointjez@hotmail.com writes: << I totally agree with you. I was constantly teased in school also. These kids don't see how bad they are really hurting each other. After all these deaths maybe the popular kids of the world will see that their teasing comes back to them. They not only hurt others but they hurt themselves as well. >> So, kids who tease other kids should be killed? It's not about popularity. Popularity has always been around but people haven't felt the need to kill others over it. Stop trying to act like a martyr for the loners of high shcool. karen ------------------------------ End of goths-digest V3 #81 **************************