From: owner-good-noise-digest@smoe.org (good-noise-digest) To: good-noise-digest@smoe.org Subject: good-noise-digest V1 #40 Reply-To: good-noise@smoe.org Sender: owner-good-noise-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-good-noise-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk good-noise-digest Thursday, November 12 1998 Volume 01 : Number 040 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Keeping things to oneself [BOUNCED MESSAGE ] Re: Keeping things to oneself [SAbrams613@aol.com] Re: Keeping things to oneself [SMOKEY596@aol.com] Re: Keeping things to oneself [Anne Nugent ] Re: Keeping things to oneself [Jay Votel ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:46:17 -0500 From: BOUNCED MESSAGE Subject: Keeping things to oneself From: Subject: Keeping things to oneself To those who pulled me up on this one, I know exactly what you mean. And yet... perhaps it's me, or perhaps it's an 'Englishness' thing. Any song along the lines of, We've had a baby, isn't he the cutest thing, etc. falls so easily into the Sentimentality Trap. Then you start to think, is this a song for us (the listener) or is it just for the writer because he's got a new baby and is bowled over by the experience (and why not, I suppose). Are we listening to these songs because we're interested in John Gorka or because we're interested in ourselves and John does something through his songs to tell us something about ourselves? If it's the latter, then I can just about accept a song like Cypress Trees (though I'm not interested in "eating, craving patterns") but When He Cries embarrasses me. A song like the one about John's mother (I've forgotten the title again) is a problem for me on 2 levels. One is that I just don't think it's a good song. The other is that I think it's too literal and therefore falls straight into the Sentimentality Trap. If his mother was in the room while he sang it, I'd be embarrassed. Compare it with a song like David Gates' Everything I Own, which is about his dead father. I didn't know this for years - to me it was a song about universal themes of love and loss. And a great song. But a song like Dan Fogelberg's The Leader of the Band... almost a great song, but sets the toes curling just a bit. Too literal. Don't get me wrong, I am interested in John Gorka the person, as well as his music. Andrew. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:25:36 EST From: SAbrams613@aol.com Subject: Re: Keeping things to oneself Pondering if we fans listen to Gorka's songs for ourselves or for him struck a chord with me. I've always wondered how singer-songwriters can get up on stage and 'expose' themselves to groups of strangers night after night. As you can tell from that introverted statement, I'm more comfortable with songs where Gorka is the keen observer of human nature rather than in 'open my raincoat: here's my life' mode. One of the reasons I began listening to him is that unlike so many other current singer-songwriters, his songs gave a perspective of life that was wider than his own experiences ( I just got sick and tired of song after song about 'how I got dumped and why love is such a bitch' from his colleagues!). Maybe he's becoming more extroverted, so sharing his more intimate feelings is easier for him now, maybe he is 'bowled over' by marriage and parenthood... whatever. While I squirm a little when he's singing about 'personal' stuff, I still appreciate his facility with language, skewed perspective on life, rich, distinctive voice and guitar licks. To me, he's unique, which is why I am sitting here posting to this page! Barbara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:53:23 EST From: SMOKEY596@aol.com Subject: Re: Keeping things to oneself I think when a songwriter uses his own personal life experiences in a song, most people listen to it with their own tainted ears...that is, they identify it with their OWN life rather than the songwriter's. I think that's why you hear so many people saying "Oh that song is just exactly how I feel about...blah blah blah." And that's the songwriter's gift...to make us feel that way. And if he's making us squirm when we hear some of his lyrics, then he's making us feel something, whether we like it or not. As far as the "we've just had a baby isn't he cute" stuff...for me, hearing someone express how wonderful this experience is sure is a fantastic alternative to all the people (and I use that term lightly) fighting on talk shows over who slept with whom and just exactly who ARE the fathers of my 3 kids crap. John's happiness with his little boy can also teach US to believe in joy. LOL...off MY soapbox for now! Kathy Bloomington, IN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:34:38 -0500 From: Anne Nugent Subject: Re: Keeping things to oneself OK I thought perhaps I should give my 2 cents on this issue with a couple of points that may have been missed, 1. Look at the medium John chooses to use. 'Personal' songs are what folk music is all about really. Songs that tell a story, that give ones own slant on an issue. It's barely a step from "look at the injustice here" to "look at my new baby". Each experience is part of life and each tells a story. 2. John's voice seems ready-made for sorrow. The timbre and the quality of his instrument lend themselves natuarally to somber songs. "The Water Is Wide" for instance, is one of my favorite songs he has covered because the song and his voice seem tailor-made for each other. So, yes, when he sings a song of joy it seems less... 'right' somehow. Don't ask me why. 3. I think perhaps Johns' failure to couch his emotions with poetic style is simply a measure of true love. He failed to do it on "Part of Your Own" as well. Usually the man can turn a phrase like no one's business but, i suppose, when the emotions run too deep he cannot (or chooses not to). A pity for us, the listeners. Perhaps he will improve at this given age and wisdom. Again, just my opinion. Anne BOUNCED MESSAGE wrote: > > From: > Subject: Keeping things to oneself > > To those who pulled me up on this one, I know exactly what you mean. > > And yet... perhaps it's me, or perhaps it's an 'Englishness' thing. Any song > along the lines of, We've had a baby, isn't he the cutest thing, etc. falls > so easily into the Sentimentality Trap. Then you start to think, is this a > song for us (the listener) or is it just for the writer because he's got a > new baby and is bowled over by the experience (and why not, I suppose). > > Are we listening to these songs because we're interested in John Gorka or > because we're interested in ourselves and John does something through his > songs to tell us something about ourselves? If it's the latter, then I can > just about accept a song like Cypress Trees (though I'm not interested in > "eating, craving patterns") but When He Cries embarrasses me. > > A song like the one about John's mother (I've forgotten the title again) is > a problem for me on 2 levels. One is that I just don't think it's a good > song. The other is that I think it's too literal and therefore falls > straight into the Sentimentality Trap. If his mother was in the room while > he sang it, I'd be embarrassed. Compare it with a song like David Gates' > Everything I Own, which is about his dead father. I didn't know this for > years - to me it was a song about universal themes of love and loss. And a > great song. But a song like Dan Fogelberg's The Leader of the Band... almost > a great song, but sets the toes curling just a bit. Too literal. > > Don't get me wrong, I am interested in John Gorka the person, as well as his > music. > > Andrew. - -- -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:03:40 -0500 From: Jay Votel Subject: Re: Keeping things to oneself We can all think what we want about whence a song comes, but the bottom line with John Gorka and any other artist is -- does it work? John's songs work on many levels, whether or not they are our favorites. His art is broad enough to endure an occasional dip into sentimentality. And only he can follow "When He Cries" with "Where the Bottles Break." 'Nuff said. - -- Jay Votel SMOKEY596@aol.com wrote: > I think when a songwriter uses his own personal life experiences in a song, > most people listen to it with their own tainted ears...that is, they identify > it with their OWN life rather than the songwriter's. I think that's why you > hear so many people saying "Oh that song is just exactly how I feel > about...blah blah blah." And that's the songwriter's gift...to make us feel > that way. And if he's making us squirm when we hear some of his lyrics, then > he's making us feel something, whether we like it or not. > > As far as the "we've just had a baby isn't he cute" stuff...for me, hearing > someone express how wonderful this experience is sure is a fantastic > alternative to all the people (and I use that term lightly) fighting on talk > shows over who slept with whom and just exactly who ARE the fathers of my 3 > kids crap. John's happiness with his little boy can also teach US to believe > in joy. > > LOL...off MY soapbox for now! > Kathy > Bloomington, IN ------------------------------ End of good-noise-digest V1 #40 *******************************